Shots from inside the presidential limo

[Jack White]

... someone with a different perspective might be less offended than worried that an apparently significant work includes an apparently serious argument about someone shooting John Kennedy in the head from the front seat of the presidential limousine, firing past Governor and Nellie Connally to do so. That alone raises caution about the work and the judgment of the author.

One sees immediately why Horne is so very, very "misguided":

1. Bobby Hargis:

Mr. Stern: Do you recall your impression at the time regarding the shots?

Hargis: “Well, at the time it sounded like the shots were right next to me,” 6WCH294.

2. Austin Miller:

Mr. Belin: “Where did the shots sound like they came from?”

Miller: “Well, the way it sounded like, it came from the, I would say right there in the car,” 6WCH225.

3. Charles Brehm: “Drehm seemed to think the shots came from in front or beside the President. He explained the President did not slump forward as if [sic] he would have after being shot from the rear,” “President Dead, Connally Shot,” The Dallas Times Herald, 22 November 1963, p.2 [cited by Joachim Joesten. Oswald: Assassin or Fall Guy? (London: Merlin Press, 1964), p.176.]

4. Officer E. L. Boone:" I heard three shots coming from the vicinity of where the President's car was,” 19WCH508.

5. Jack Franzen: “He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and ...small fragments flying inside the vehicle and immediately assumed someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile,” 22WCH840.

6. Mrs. Jack Franzen: “Shortly after the President’s automobile passed by…she heard a noise which sounded as if someone had thrown a firecracker into the President’s automobile…at approximately the same time she noticed dust or small pieces of debris flying from the President’s automobile,” 24WCH525.

7. James Altgens: “The last shot sounded like it came from the left side of the car, if it was close range because, if it were a pistol it would have to be fired at close range for any degree of accuracy," 7WCH518.

8. Hugh Betzner, Jr.: “I cannot remember exactly where I was when I saw the following: I heard at least two shots fired and I saw what looked like a firecracker going off in the president's car. My assumption for this was because I saw fragments going up in the air,” 19WCH467

9. Mary Moorman: “The sound popped, well it just sounded like, well, you know, there might have been a firecracker right there in that car,” Jay Hogan interview with Mary Moorman and Jean Hill, KRLD Radio (Dallas), 15:30hrs (CST), 22 November 1963, Tape 5B and 6A (NARA) – see http://educationforum.iphost.com/index.php?showtopic=9364

10. Jean Hill: ““I thought I saw some men in plain clothes shooting back but everything was such a blur...,” Sheriff Department’s statement, 22 November 1963.

11. Don Schulman: “Just then the guard…took out his gun. And he fired also…The guard definitely pulled out his gun and fired,” KNXT-TV reporter, minutes after the assassination of RFK, within Ted Charach’s landmark documentary, The Second Gun.

You join very distinguished company in your concern, Dan, men like...Allen Welch Dulles, for example.

This is the VENTRILOQUIST EFFECT. You see the dummy's mouth move and you think the voice is coming from him.

In Dealey Plaza, you see the president's head explode into the air, and you think the simultaneous noise comes from

there.

Count the number of such witnesses who were IN LINE with JFK and the Grassy Knoll.

Jack

[William Kelly]

At some point, one or more of Doug Horne's exegetes on this forum is, I'm sure, going to offer a word or two, if only for honesty's sake, on the seriousness with which he treats the proposition that William Greer shot his President.

And perhaps reproduce details of the anecdote concerning Clint Hill and the flight back to Washington?

I don't yet have any of the volumes, but I take the following descriptions as accurate summaries.

http://jfkresearch.com/forum3/index.php?to...icseen#msg31146

Re: Doug Horne's book(s) now for sale on Amazon

« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2009, 07:03 AM »

Doug Mizzer:

Horne mentions witnesses in the Plaza that day that saw guns drawn inside the limo and thought they were firing back at the assassins. He also higlights a steward that was within earshot of Clint Hill on the trip home from Dallas. The steward claims that as Hill was washing the blood off himself, he blurted out that when he jumped on the rear bumper of the limo, Greer had his handgun pointed directly at him. And as I previously noted, his Moorman photo with the caption about Greer missing from it, is in Volume 1. This is where all the illustrations are located. I believe it's number 76.

« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2009, 07:24 PM »

Larry Hancock:

…like it or not Doug does bring up the possiblity of Greer shooting JFK many

times and from a noumber of angles (as Doug pointed out). So far I have found

mention of it in Vol 1, 4 and 5. Doug does caution that he actually hates to bring it

up but he obviously feels strongly enough to do so and introduce it multiple times.

And in truth he seems pretty convinced of it ...certainly as a possiblity if not a

probability. He even states that the Moreman photo is probably altered

to blur out Greer and what he might be doing.

...there is a ton of good stuff in his volumes but there is little doubt that he

is seriously introducing the subject of Greer shooting JFK with a pistol.

My congratulations to Doug for having the courage to follow the evidence, however much it offends partisans of the two great CIA-imposed orthodoxies in the case, the TSBD and the grassy knoll.

And yet someone with a different perspective might be less offended than worried that an apparently significant work includes an apparently serious argument about someone shooting John Kennedy in the head from the front seat of the presidential limousine, firing past Governor and Nellie Connally to do so. That alone raises caution about the work and the judgment of the author.

Doug Horne is the analysist and author of the book that reduces millions of pages of official records to five volumes, each detailing dozens - hundreds of small but significant issues. He doesn't make up the witnesses who reported seeing a gun drawn in the car, or people reporting that the gunshot sounded like it came from within the car, or that the nurse at Parkland said she smelled gunpowerd on the victims indicating, and he reports what they said, without endorsing it.

Now for you to say that Doug Horne believes that someone in the car shot JFK is not true, and if that is the case then it is on you, not Doug Horne.

Mr. Kelly,

My two statements were in response to Paul Rigby's suggestions about Doug Horne and what Doug may or may not believe; apparently it is Mr. Rigby who believes "that Doug Horne believes that someone in the car shot JFK." Since I was responding to Mr. Rigby's assertion, you've taken issue with what I said (suggesting that there is a negative alternative to Mr. Rigby's happy perspective), instead of recognizing that the "JFK shot by Greer and Doug Horne believes it" idea is not on me but on Mr. Rigby.

I have very little idea of what Doug Horne believes in this regard, but I do stand by the cautionary note I made above. I can certainly believe a protective officer might have drawn his weapon in a situation where there was an attack; but I believe it is simply ridiculous to think a Secret Service agent in the middle of a downtown parade (no matter how suspicious he might be in every other respect) drew his g*dd*mn pistol and fired it into the back seat of the limo -- at the president, past the governor and his wife, all without any son of a b*st*rd somewhere quickly noting such an extraordinary detour in proper procedure .....

Of course Doug Horne will be accused of saying a lot of things over the next few months, and those who quote him should do so accurately, and not promote falsehoods simply to discredit him, though I'm sure they will.

He doesn't smoke pot, doesn't believe in UFOs, does believe the moon pictures are real and as the Chief Analyist for Military Records of the ARRB has concluded that the records indicate that the assassination, regardless of where the shots originated, was a coup d'etat.

I don't doubt that all of that is true, and I agree entirely.

On other matters, for a second I thought Jack was calling me a dummy, but he makes a good point about the "ventriloquist effect." On the other hand, I have a very serious attitude about anyone putting me in the company of Allen Welsh Dulles ......... back in the old days I would've been seriously pissed about such a thing, and let him know about it in an inexcusably vulgar way, but of course now we all have to watch what we say with all these snitches slamming the Report button every other day

Sorry I misunderstood. I agree with you.

BK

[Paul Rigby]

Mr. Kelly,

My two statements were in response to Paul Rigby's suggestions about Doug Horne and what Doug may or may not believe; apparently it is Mr. Rigby who believes "that Doug Horne believes that someone in the car shot JFK." Since I was responding to Mr. Rigby's assertion, you've taken issue with what I said (suggesting that there is a negative alternative to Mr. Rigby's happy perspective), instead of recognizing that the "JFK shot by Greer and Doug Horne believes it" idea is not on me but on Mr. Rigby.

I have very little idea of what Doug Horne believes in this regard, but I do stand by the cautionary note I made above. I can certainly believe a protective officer might have drawn his weapon in a situation where there was an attack; but I believe it is simply ridiculous to think a Secret Service agent in the middle of a downtown parade (no matter how suspicious he might be in every other respect) drew his g*dd*mn pistol and fired it into the back seat of the limo -- at the president, past the governor and his wife, all without any son of a b*st*rd somewhere quickly noting such an extraordinary detour in proper procedure .....

...On the other hand, I have a very serious attitude about anyone putting me in the company of Allen Welsh Dulles ......... back in the old days I would've been seriously pissed about such a thing, and let him know about it in an inexcusably vulgar way, but of course now we all have to watch what we say with all these snitches slamming the Report button every other day

Dan,

If the Clint Hill anecdote is indeed in one of Doug Horne's volumes, and I take it that it is given Bill Kelly's non-denial denial, then it directly addresses your claim that no "son of a b*st*rd somewhere quickly noting such an extraordinary detour in proper procedure..." Bill's reluctance to acknowledge the fact tells us something about him, a great deal about the power of group-think in the research community, and nothing whatever about the merits (or otherwise) of the case for an in-car shooting.

Second, you trot out that hoary old line about the execution taking place "in the middle of a downtown parade." What a pity it isn't true: It took place at the sparsely populated fag-end of the drive through Dallas. This irony was noted in contemporaneous press reports. You should really catch up.

Third, I'm very struck at the eruption of foul language. Why this level of emotion? Is this really the disinterested response of an independent researcher? I note with interest that this is not the first time we've seen a similar recourse to this kind of language in response to the proposition.

Fourth, as a matter of readily verifiable record, Allen Dulles didn't like any suggestion that Kennedy was shot from in front or beside. And, as you've just so eloquently demonstrated, neither do you.

Fifth, feel free to let rip without fear of the mods intruding: I've never reported anyone for anything. To the contrary, the more ill-tempered and irrational the response, the better.

Paul

[Paul Rigby]

Fourth, as a matter of readily verifiable record, Allen Dulles didn't like any suggestion that Kennedy was shot from in front or beside. And, as you've just so eloquently demonstrated, neither do you.

Dulles to Humes:

“Just another question. Am I correct in assuming from what you say that this wound is entirely inconsistent with a wound that might have been administered if the shot were fired from in front of or beside of the President: it had to be fired from behind the President?” [2WCH360].

(Humes’ response was no less remarkable: “Scientifically, sir, it is impossible for it to have been fired from other than behind. Or to have exited from other than behind"!)

[Paul Rigby]

http://www.jfklancerforum.com/dc/dcboard.p...85445&page=

Subject: "RE: Admiral Burkley at Parkland?"

Daniel Gallup, Thursday, 31 Dec 2009, on Doug Horne’s multi-volume work:

6. He accepts the possibility of a left-temple head shot as well; this bullet lodged by the right ear and was removed. As of the end of Volume IV, he allows that Greer might have been the shooter.

A third observer, and one with a particularly well-deserved reputation for honest and temperate comment, confirms that Horne does indeed give Greer's involvement serious consideration. Quite right, too.

[Paul Rigby]

Daniel: Then I will say that I hope Daniel and Larry have accurately characterized Horne's position on the subject (and I have no reason to believe they wouldn't let alone haven't). And then we will have to stay tuned for further updates as to whether this is Horne's ultimate conclusion on the subject (in Vol. V presumably). And if it is, we will have to assess the evidence for that conclusion.

And if the evidence strongly suggests that Greer shot John Kennedy with a pistol, firing from the front seat of the limousine ......... then so be it. But it will be one of the more fantastic-sounding conspiracy scenarios to come along, and so one of the least likely to be given much hearing in the court of public opinion. And if that's how it is, then so be that too.

Fair enough. That strikes me as an honourable and prudent position to take. I am not, and never have been, opposed to the raising of legitimate objections/questions, what I have resisted - and will continue to - is the attempt to place the paradigm beyond the realm of legitimate discussion.

Now, having long advanced the proposition that Kennedy was killed by a member of his own bodyguard, it seems to me I have an obligation to set how I think the killing went down.

Let me say at the outset I have no beef with the idea that the CIA plan included provision for shooters from distance - but just not for the actual hit, assuming things went broadly to plan.

I can see two very good grounds for their utilisation: 1) emergency cover for unforseen intrusion or failure; and 2) for the purposes of misdirection. I believe the later is the key to the entire scheme: misdirection.

So here is my paradigm, as assembled from the most germane testimony I have found to date. It is predicated upon the provision from the outset of a fabricated film:

The Secret Service and the false trail up the grassy knoll

Ingenia nostra rerum contrariarum vicinitate fallantur

(Our minds are confused by the close proximity of opposites)

Petrach

Summary:

Secret Service men leave follow-up car: a) run to presidential limousine; lay false trail up to knoll, c) Kellerman's part in the misdirection; d) SS place responsibility for run up grassy knoll on Dallas police; and e) are blown out by the CIA in satirical, if hubristic, mode.

A) The SS checks the target is mortally wounded:

1) Earl Cabell: “No; we couldn't tell. We could tell, of course, there was confusion in the presidential car--activity. The Secret Service men ran to that car,” 7WCH479.

2) James Chaney and other unnamed Dallas officers, as related by fellow motorcycle outrider, Marrion L. Baker: “I talked to Jim Chaney…during the time that the Secret Service men were trying to get into the car…from the time the first shot rang out, the car stopped completely, pulled to the left and stopped…I heard several of them say that, Mr. Truly he was standing out there, he said it stopped. Several officers said it stopped completely,” 3WCH265.

3) Norman Similas: “I swung back to look at the car. A Secret Service man ran up with his gun drawn…The Secret Service man opened the car door and I saw the President slumped down to the floor…,” Source: “‘I saw president fall’ – Willowdale man,” Toronto Daily Star, (All Star Night edition), Friday, 22 November 1963, pp.1&13

4) Robert Baskin: “The motorcade ground to a halt. There was a good deal of activity round the President’s car, with Secret Service men running about,” “Day Began As Auspiciously As Any in Kennedy’s Career,” The Dallas Morning News, 23 November 1963, p.2

The false trail to the knoll:

1) Ronald B. Fischer: “And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off-out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger--freight cars were,” 6WCH196

2) Jack Franzen: “Mr. FRANZEN advised he and his wife and small son were standing in the grass area west of Houston Street and south of Elm Street at the time the President's motorcade arrived at that location at approximately 12:30 PM on November 22, 1963. He said he heard the sound of an explosion which appeared to him to come from the President's car and noticed small fragments flying inside the President's car and immediately assumed that someone had tossed a firecracker inside the automobile…He noticed the men, who were presumed to be Secret Service Agents, riding in the car directly behind the President's car, unloading from the car, some with firearms in their hands, and noticed police officers and these plain clothesmen [sic] running up the grassy slope across Elm Street from his location and toward a wooded and bushy area located across Elm Street from him… Because of this activity he presumed the shots which were fired came from the shrubbery or bushes toward which these officers appeared to be running,” Statement to the FBI, November 24, 1963: http://www.jfk-online.com/franzen.html

C) Kellerman’s role in the misdirection:

Mark Lane: What were the Secret Service men in the front of the car doing when this happened?

S.M. Holland: Well, he was standing up with his machine gun, pointed in the direction that I saw the smoke, and, er, heard the shot come from.

Mark Lane: And which way did he look?

S.M. Holland: He was standing up with a sub-machine pointed in the direction of that picket fence.

From the LP “The Controversy: The Death of John F. Kennedy” (Capitol Records KA02677, 1966)

D) The Secret Service covers its tracks

Compiled from wire reports, “John F. Kennedy Slain!,” Lima News, 22 November 1963, p.2: “Some of the Secret Service agents thought the gunfire was from an automatic weapon fired to the right rear* of the Chief Executive’s car, probably from the grassy knoll to which motorcycle policemen directed their attention as they raced up the slope.”

* The assassination took place, of course, further up Elm Street, nearer the Triple Overpass, than the second version of the Z-fake would have us believe.

E) Overview of the rehearsed role of the SS

In its October 1966 edition, Ramparts dedicated its central section to a lengthy, advert-free, investigation of the JFK assassination, the David Welsh-edited In The Shadow of Dallas. In the same edition, on the worn heels of William W. Turner’s penitential memoir of FBI service – “I was a burglar, wiretapper, bugger and spy for the FBI,” a title that read rather more prosaically, one imagines, in the US than the UK - not to mention three pages of vintage Ginsberg gibberish, it served up the most famous spoof in the canon of JFK assassination literature, the review by Jacob Brackman (“a staff editor of the New Yorker magazine”) and Faye Levin (“a graduate of Radcliffe…published in the Harvard crimson”) of a non-existent book by an imaginary author: Ulov. G K. Leboeuf’s self-published tetralogy, Time of the Assassins.

As with most successful satires, the review prepared its trap with some care. It began by examining three real works - by Epstein (Legend), Weisberg (Whitewash I), and Lane (Rush to Judgment) – which the duo briskly considered before dismissing them with a judgment of some acuity. All three works, they noted, suffered from an “overweaning reluctance to point a finger.” Then it was on to Leboeuf, and a piece of sustained mockery which combined the knowingness of Monocle, that who’s who of CIA officers and literary fellow-travellers, with a buff’s eye for testimony detail, albeit of a special kind – that which the nominal opposition under review never mentioned. One paragraph has lingered with me ever since I first read it:

One eyewitness to the shooting, Merriweather Really, described the initial reaction as appearing to be an awkward, insufficiently rehearsed play. Two shots rang out in quick succession, he stated, sounding like they were coming from Kennedy’s car itself, or from one of the cars right behind. “The Vice-President slapped Andy Youngblood on the back and whooped, and the entire brigade of police and secret service men made a dash for the Knoll, almost as if,” testified Really, “they had known in advance they were going to head that way.”

[Paul Rigby]

http://jfkcountercoup.blogspot.com/

Brave and honest stuff from Doug Horne:

10) Do you believe, as it has been alleged on internet forums, that Greer shot JFK in the head with his pistol?

D.H.: No, I do not "believe" this as an article of faith, or as a firm finding. It is merely an unpleasant and disturbing possibility. I raised it as an "evidentiary afterthought," because there were so many nagging and interlocking indicators of both a left temporal entry wound, and of a pistol being discharged during the assassination. Four physicians at Parkland have strongly supported a left temporal entry at one time or another: McClelland; Jenkins; Jones; and Puerto (Porto). So did father Oscar Huber. So did Dr. Charles Wilbur (a renowned pathologist) in a 1999 letter, in which he stated his reasons in detail. Since the head of the deceased President was not shaved at autopsy, the autopsy photos do not answer this question. The autopsy report has been rewritten at least twice, so it is not trustworthy. The fact that Triage Nurse Bertha Lozano smelled gunpowder as JFK and Connally were wheeled past her at Parkland implies that there was a firearm discharged in the limousine and that particulate matter was embedded in someone's clothing - otherwise she would not have smelled gunpowder. Hugh Betzner observed a nickel-plated revolver in someone's hand inside the limousine during the assassination; and Jean Hill observed plain clothes men "shooting back." Both Clint Hill and Sam Holland heard a pistol discharged near the end of the shooting sequence. The fact that we do not see Greer doing so in the extant Zapruder film is meaningless, since we now know the film has been altered and the brief car stop was almost certainly removed from the film. This disturbing pattern of evidence is simply one of the many reasons why an exhumation should be conducted, and is further evidence that we really don't know exactly what happened in Dealey Plaza.

And kudos to Bill Kelly for reporting it straight.

[David Andrews]

An analog for the Greer-dunnit theory is the discredited story that an SS man in the Queen unlimbered an AR-15 and accidentally caused the head wound. It's an analogous tale that suggests some SS gunfire in the Plaza and at Kennedy.

In the same way, there are several analogous rumors of a dead SS man, a pool of blood near the pergola, etc, that tend to suggest a wounding or death outside the limo.

It's like the fat guy sings to Costner in JFK - "I dunno, boss - there's a lot of smoke there, but some fire, too!"

Edited January 25, 2010 by David Andrews

[Will Emaus]

An analog for the Greer-dunnit theory is the discredited story that an SS man in the Queen unlimbered an AR-15 and accidentally caused the head wound. It's an analogous tale that suggests some SS gunfire in the Plaza and at Kennedy. In the same way, there are several analogous rumors of a dead SS man, a pool of blood near the pergola, etc, that tend to suggest a wounding or death outside the limo.

It's like the fat guy sings to Costner in JFK - "I dunno, boss - there's a lot of smoke there, but some fire, too!"

The dead SS agent "rumor" came straight from the Dallas police early on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRTfBZZR9-s&fmt=18 @5:47 of the clip.

[David Andrews]

The dead SS agent "rumor" came straight from the Dallas police early on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lRTfBZZR9-s&fmt=18 @5:47 of the clip.

I'm wondering if Clint Hill, seen spread-eagle and head down atop a speeding limo, didn't start that rumor, if indeed it was a rumor:

"What did you see? What did you see?"

"I saw a big Secret Service agent, all dressed in black, laid out on top of the trunk!"

Yet the sheriff's office confirms the rumor, and states four shots - so that may have been the "A-plan," to drop an SS man also. As for the timing - a "young man" arrested as a suspect is also announced concurrently.

Edited January 26, 2010 by David Andrews

[Will Emaus]

I'm wondering if Clint Hill seen spread-eagle and head down atop a speeding limo didn't start that rumor, if indeed it was a rumor:

Yet the sheriff's office confirms the rumor, and states four shots - so that may have been the "A-plan," to drop an SS man also. As for the timing - a "young man" arrested as a suspect is also announced concurrently.

Yep, it seems sort of extreme for a "fog of war" mistake, given who confirmed it.

[John Dugan]

this might be the worst thread ever. A shot from inside the Presidential Limo, REALLY?

I think Connally, IF ANYONE, would know if a shot have come from 3 feet away from where he was sitting. And he has never stated anything remotely close to such a claim, therefore making this the worst thread ever.

Maybe James Files was hiding in the floorboard and fired the fatal shot. I'll start a thread on it.

[Paul Rigby]

this might be the worst thread ever. A shot from inside the Presidential Limo, REALLY?

I think Connally, IF ANYONE, would know if a shot have come from 3 feet away from where he was sitting. And he has never stated anything remotely close to such a claim, therefore making this the worst thread ever.

Maybe James Files was hiding in the floorboard and fired the fatal shot. I'll start a thread on it.

You've got to admire the zeal...if only because there's nothing else to admire.

The worst thread "ever"? That's some competition, JD, I mean, you've started a few.

But it is illuminating to this degree: the emotional hyperbole of the repudiation. No other scenario produces it.

And no wonder, for nothing boasts its explanatory power:

Self-censorship may exist most strongly when people are confronted with a force capable of killing a very important victim, in broad daylight, with impunity. The odds of their experiencing reprisal would dictate prudence. In short, witnesses' opinion of the political power of the killers would determine their amount of recall,

Fred Newcomb & Perry Adams. Murder From Within, chapter 3, "Execution."

PS One very good way of assessing the ridiculousness - or otherwise - of a criterion of rejection is to apply it generally. If Connally didn't state it outright, presumably that ends all other alternatives to the TSBD, too? Puerile stuff.

[Will Emaus]

this might be the worst thread ever. A shot from inside the Presidential Limo, REALLY?

I think Connally, IF ANYONE, would know if a shot have come from 3 feet away from where he was sitting. And he has never stated anything remotely close to such a claim, therefore making this the worst thread ever.

Maybe James Files was hiding in the floorboard and fired the fatal shot. I'll start a thread on it.

LOL---I'll move the SS agent stuff to another thread, it was off topic anyways...not gonna keep it in the worst thread ever.

[Paul Rigby]

LOL---I'll move the SS agent stuff to another thread, it was off topic anyways...not gonna keep it in the worst thread ever.

It is with deep regret that I must forfeit this most coveted title. But forfeit it I must in the face of overwhelming superiority. Here, the swine, is the proof:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=15345

It has everything a certain kind of JFK researcher could want in a thread: "Evidence" discovered years after the event, bearing no chain of possession, and unburdened by so much as a sliver of corroborating eyewitness testimony. It is, in summary, a thread with legs. Four of them.

Meanwhile, back at the nuthouse we call in-car-shooterland, lunatic fringers weirdly persist in regarding the following sort of dubious photographic nonsense, when allied to a left veer, and the final shot position offered by CE2111 (manhole cover), as far more germane:

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...um=41&pos=0

http://www.jfkassassinationforum.com/galle...um=37&pos=0

Weird, eh?