Shots from inside the presidential limo

[Jack White]

Well, Jack the difference between the evidence against Oswald and against Greer exceeds the differrence between our political opinions on most questions, so there is a bit of a difference.

Never would I raise the argument I did against Paul against anyone who argues that Oswald killed JFK.

Now, Oswald may very well have been framed. In fact, I think that would be another position we would share. So if he was innocent, we can deeply regret what his children must have gone through, and we can (and should) work to rectify that wrong.

But marshalling the evidence against Oswald is a far cry from labeling Greer and Kellereman murderers with no evidence to support that!

You have no notion of my political opinions "on most questions".

Jack

[Tim Gratz]

You may be right, Jack, it is just that I tire of reading all the leftist, America and all of its institutions are evil, nonsense posted here. It is no wonder even Democrat politicians do not want to get involved in the assassination story when there are people claiming with no evidence at all that two secret service agents conspired to kill JFK. In his book VB lists about three pages of people claimed to have been conspirators. Well, he has no computer (thank God!) for had he visited this Forum would have consumed half of his book!

But your point is valid and please acept my sincerest apologies for any offense. In fact if I recall you one said you liked a presidential candidate I like, Fred Thompson.

Again, sorry for the offense. None was intended.

[Mark Stapleton]

On closer inspection of this thread, I think its probable that Greer shot JFK but I disagree on one important point---how Greer shot JFK without the other occupants knowing.

The timing had to be perfect. While slowing the car down, he deftly manouvered one hand down to his holster which contained his pearl-handled six shooter and at the precise moment, he pulled it out and, while his other hand still held the wheel, he twirled the gun rapidly on one finger (much like the Cisco Kid) and fired two fatal shots while still facing ahead and replaced the gun before anyone knew what was happening.

Edited August 31, 2007 by Mark Stapleton

[Jack White]

You may be right, Jack, it is just that I tire of reading all the leftist, America and all of its institutions are evil, nonsense posted here. It is no wonder even Democrat politicians do not want to get involved in the assassination story when there are people claiming with no evidence at all that two secret service agents conspired to kill JFK. In his book VB lists about three pages of people claimed to have been conspirators. Well, he has no computer (thank God!) for had he visited this Forum would have consumed half of his book!

But your point is valid and please acept my sincerest apologies for any offense. In fact if I recall you one said you liked a presidential candidate I like, Fred Thompson.

Again, sorry for the offense. None was intended.

You imply that I am a LEFTIST. Nothing could be farther from the truth.

Most leftists are airheaded ivory tower idealistic jerks.

Neither am I a RIGHTIST.

Most of them are closeminded evildoers and criminals.

I am a CENTRIST...except there is no viable party or leader for independent

intelligent thinkers. I vote for persons and ideas, not political parties.

Although little is yet known about the next election's candidates, the only ones

talking sense so far are Ron Paul, Fred Thompson, and Dennis Kucinich...how's

that for covering the spectrum!

The only candidate in recent years who has talked sense was Ross Perot.

The bad candidates in 08 are anyone named Bush, Rudy Guiliani, Hillary

Clinton, and Barack Hussein Obama. All BAD and divisive. Gimme a fresh

face with new ideas...not a retread politician. Expect another assassination

if a divisive candidate or a maverick candidate makes it...but ain't gonna happen.

The election likely has already been decided at the Bildeberg group's recent meeting.

Jack

[Bill Miller]

Well, Jack the difference between the evidence against Oswald and against Greer exceeds the difference between our political opinions on most questions, so there is a bit of a difference.

Never would I raise the argument I did against Paul against anyone who argues that Oswald killed JFK.

Now, Oswald may very well have been framed. In fact, I think that would be another position we would share. So if he was innocent, we can deeply regret what his children must have gone through, and we can (and should) work to rectify that wrong.

But marshalling the evidence against Oswald is a far cry from labeling Greer and Kellereman murderers with no evidence to support that!

FWIW, Is it not interesting that someone would mention the shots sounding like they came from inside the car - not consider the witness is wearing a helmet - the witness never mentioned seeing anyone actually shoot a gun from inside the car - that no film or testimony showed anyone actually shooting from inside the car - and yet those same people can imply two men were murderers. And knowing something about litigation - the men being discussed do not need be alive for a lawsuit. If found that the claimant was reckless in their accusation based on hearsay, then a judgment of guilty can be obtained. In some ways, such a suit might be good to see happen because it will sure give future researchers a reason to be more careful in making claims of misconduct without the evidence to support it.

Bill Miller

[Tim Gratz]

Bill, I believe (could be wrong) an action for libel or defamation is personal to the person defamed and hence is vitiated when the person defamed dies.

I think a surviving spouse or children ought to be able to bring such a suit. For grandchildren, perhaps, but the injury is a bit more attenuated.

Forget about the Kennedy case. If someone accused my deceased mother of being a prostitute when she was young, and published it, I'd be pretty upset even though anyone who knew who would know it was a lie.

[Paul Rigby]

This idea is too much for me...

I can assure you, Mark, I had precisely the same reaction when I first began kicking this solution around.

But force of logic compelled. Let me offer you another important reason why.

In no other scenario do we find this advantage - the gunman controlled the speed of his prey.

I put it to you that this is no small advantage.

I think there were things that occurred in DP which have been concealed from the public but this isn't one of them. JBC, Nellie and Jackie are going to see the driver shooting at them and if they did, no amount of pressure or intimidation would have prevented them from saying so.

I'll try and dig out something that addresses directly Connally's post-Dallas attitude to the SS.

And Jackie's gonna let Greer tearfully hug her later at Parkland? No.

Not seen any reliable evidence for this. By all mean produce for consideration. But I can offer you this:

Newcomb & Adams. Murder From Within (Santa Barbara: Probe, 1974) – Extracts from footnote 86 to chapter 4, Execution:

Around January 1965, Mrs. Kennedy told Mary Gallagher to “be careful” about transportation in cars. She said, “You should get yourselves a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you.” (Mary B. Gallagher, My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p. 351.) A caption in Ms. Gallagher’s book of group photograph at the White House mess refers to “…Roy H. Killerman [sic]…” (Ibid., photo section, unpaginated.]

Lyndon Johnson also believed that a good driver was important and readily indicated the matter was both urgent and of great significance. According to Youngblood, “A few days after he became President, LBJ held a conference with me. ‘I’ve got a lot of important things to do, Rufus, and I’m gonna assign one of the most important projects to you. Get Norman [Edwards, a Senate employee who Johnson had as a driver during his term there] for me. I need him as much as I need you and Lady Bird.’” (Youngblood, 20 Years, p. 154.)

And, in fairness, the reader will also find this within the same footnote:

Mrs. Kennedy later sent William R. Greer, the driver of the Presidential limousine, a handwritten note. It said, “For Bill Greer, whom the President loved, and who was with him until the very end. Thank you.” (New York Times, July 2, 1966, p. 10.)

Paul

[Mark Vernon]

And, in fairness, the reader will also find this within the same footnote:

Mrs. Kennedy later sent William R. Greer, the driver of the Presidential limousine, a handwritten note. It said, “For Bill Greer, whom the President loved, and who was with him until the very end. Thank you.” (New York Times, July 2, 1966, p. 10.)

Paul

And she was right....He was with the President right up until he shot him in the head.

[Tim Gratz]

And there is no doubt that Jackie sent Greer that nice note to thank him for his action, which she clearly witnessed. Why, I suppose she was part of the conspiracy as well, which explains her silence, and that note which was obviously a cover.

I am beginning to agree with I forget who who suggested (I think in another thread) that if this nonsense continues the name will have to be changed from The Education Forum to The Stupid Forum.

[Bill Miller]

Bill, I believe (could be wrong) an action for libel or defamation is personal to the person defamed and hence is vitiated when the person defamed dies.

I think a surviving spouse or children ought to be able to bring such a suit. For grandchildren, perhaps, but the injury is a bit more attenuated.

Forget about the Kennedy case. If someone accused my deceased mother of being a prostitute when she was young, and published it, I'd be pretty upset even though anyone who knew who would know it was a lie.

Maybe it differs from state to state in the US, but a family member for instance can sue for emotional distress they have suffered under such conditions. I bet an Internet search could probably offer some case examples.

Bill

Edited August 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Tim Gratz]

Yes, Bill, I am sure it is a question that can easily be answered through a net search. I have to run now but I'll do it if no one else does by tomorrow.

[Terry Mauro]

No weapons were seen by anyone...

Not sure that's true, Peter...

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he "saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

And as for this objection...

...and don't ya think Jackie must might have mentioned it...

If you've seen Jackie's full testimony, you're a very privileged soul. Care to share its location(s)?

- or Mrs C or even JC.....

JC thought so much of the SS he wouldn't let it near him in 1980. Actions speak louder than words. As for members of the US elite engaging in self-censorship, that's agreeably easy to demonstrate.

...or photo would have seen such a weapon?

The film record's a rank fake, with one important exception.

Your right you have a long row to hoe with that one......

There's a spaceship at my disposal, don't you know, so distance is no object. And after visiting Planet Knoll (north & south poles), I can confirm there's not a sign of intelligent life...

**************************************************************

Well I, for one, cannot believe this thread has come this far.

The idea of Greer and Kellerman being party to a shoot-out occurring in the limo at Greer's hand is, and for all intents and purposes, remains the most preposterous idea to come down the pike regarding the assassination, to date.

It's just this kind of asinine speculation that libels our asses into being regarded as nothing more than cannon fodder for the likes of the Bugliosis', the Posners', and the McAdams' white-washers.

Who the hell ever thought up such a ridiculous concept and why, is beyond me.

As has been stated, Jackie, Connelly, Nellie, Moorman, Hill, not to mention those closest to the limo as it was passing, would've seen something, or caught it on film. Instead, what we have is idle speculation, or hallucinations brought about by some wise-guy thinking he sees a flash he would love to prove to be muzzle-fire from a pistol, when in reality the flash of light is coming off a piece of metal either on the windshield or the roll bar of the vehicle.

I can't believe we've degenerated down into this form of muck and mire at this stage of the game.

[Mark Stapleton]

This idea is too much for me...

I can assure you, Mark, I had precisely the same reaction when I first began kicking this solution around.

But force of logic compelled. Let me offer you another important reason why.

In no other scenario do we find this advantage - the gunman controlled the speed of his prey.

I put it to you that this is no small advantage.

I think there were things that occurred in DP which have been concealed from the public but this isn't one of them. JBC, Nellie and Jackie are going to see the driver shooting at them and if they did, no amount of pressure or intimidation would have prevented them from saying so.

I'll try and dig out something that addresses directly Connally's post-Dallas attitude to the SS.

And Jackie's gonna let Greer tearfully hug her later at Parkland? No.

Not seen any reliable evidence for this. By all mean produce for consideration. But I can offer you this:

Newcomb & Adams. Murder From Within (Santa Barbara: Probe, 1974) – Extracts from footnote 86 to chapter 4, Execution:

Around January 1965, Mrs. Kennedy told Mary Gallagher to “be careful” about transportation in cars. She said, “You should get yourselves a good driver so that nothing ever happens to you.” (Mary B. Gallagher, My Life with Jacqueline Kennedy, p. 351.) A caption in Ms. Gallagher’s book of group photograph at the White House mess refers to “…Roy H. Killerman [sic]…” (Ibid., photo section, unpaginated.]

Lyndon Johnson also believed that a good driver was important and readily indicated the matter was both urgent and of great significance. According to Youngblood, “A few days after he became President, LBJ held a conference with me. ‘I’ve got a lot of important things to do, Rufus, and I’m gonna assign one of the most important projects to you. Get Norman [Edwards, a Senate employee who Johnson had as a driver during his term there] for me. I need him as much as I need you and Lady Bird.’” (Youngblood, 20 Years, p. 154.)

And, in fairness, the reader will also find this within the same footnote:

Mrs. Kennedy later sent William R. Greer, the driver of the Presidential limousine, a handwritten note. It said, “For Bill Greer, whom the President loved, and who was with him until the very end. Thank you.” (New York Times, July 2, 1966, p. 10.)

Paul

Paul,

The incident between Greer and Jackie at Parkland is described in Manchester, page 290.

Please, no more lightweight supposition in support of this theory.

I can't shake the feeling that you are an accomplished satirist.

I applaud you.

[Paul Rigby]

Paul,

The incident between Greer and Jackie at Parkland is described in Manchester, page 290.

Reliable evidence?

Please, no more lightweight supposition in support of this theory.

Your choice of term is interesting: eyewitness testimony is "lightweight supposition"?

I can't shake the feeling that you are an accomplished satirist.

I'm leaving the satire to the opposition on this thread.

They're doing a great job.

Paul

[Thomas H. Purvis]

No weapons were seen by anyone...

Not sure that's true, Peter...

5. Hugh Betzner, Jr. told the Dallas County Sheriffs Office that he "saw what looked like a fire-cracker going off in the President's car and recall seeing what looked like a nickel revolver in someone's hand in or somewhere immediately around the President's car," 19WCH467.

And as for this objection...

...and don't ya think Jackie must might have mentioned it...

If you've seen Jackie's full testimony, you're a very privileged soul. Care to share its location(s)?

- or Mrs C or even JC.....

JC thought so much of the SS he wouldn't let it near him in 1980. Actions speak louder than words. As for members of the US elite engaging in self-censorship, that's agreeably easy to demonstrate.

...or photo would have seen such a weapon?

The film record's a rank fake, with one important exception.

Your right you have a long row to hoe with that one......

There's a spaceship at my disposal, don't you know, so distance is no object. And after visiting Planet Knoll (north & south poles), I can confirm there's not a sign of intelligent life...

**************************************************************

Well I, for one, cannot believe this thread has come this far.

The idea of Greer and Kellerman being party to a shoot-out occurring in the limo at Greer's hand is, and for all intents and purposes, remains the most preposterous idea to come down the pike regarding the assassination, to date.

It's just this kind of asinine speculation that libels our asses into being regarded as nothing more than cannon fodder for the likes of the Bugliosis', the Posners', and the McAdams' white-washers.

Who the hell ever thought up such a ridiculous concept and why, is beyond me.

As has been stated, Jackie, Connelly, Nellie, Moorman, Hill, not to mention those closest to the limo as it was passing, would've seen something, or caught it on film. Instead, what we have is idle speculation, or hallucinations brought about by some wise-guy thinking he sees a flash he would love to prove to be muzzle-fire from a pistol, when in reality the flash of light is coming off a piece of metal either on the windshield or the roll bar of the vehicle.

I can't believe we've degenerated down into this form of muck and mire at this stage of the game.

Terry;

It is not unlike the claim that the SS Agent in the followup car shot JFK, as well as the "who's buried in Oswald's grave" BS.

All that those who are truly responsible for obscurring the facts have to do is to bring up some completely asinine theory/idea, and there are those who jump onto the bandwagon and proclaim it's validity.

Which happens to make/paint all who question the WC to appear as co-participants in the games of fools.

Therein lies the absolute reasons why no government body is likely to ever take a serious look at the JFK matter again.

And the more that the fools yell, the less likely any other dedicated investigation would appear, and any valid reasons for a new investigation are lost among the rants and ravings of fools.

If one is a fool, then they are a fool. Irrelevant as to whether a LN fool who actually believes the WC, or a CT fool who chases body kidnappers and/or SS assassins in the Presidential Limo.