On the two men Bowers saw ....

[Robin Unger]

This was Chris's frame before i annotated it, using his identification of the motorcycle cops.

[Bill Miller]

So Hudson was in the grass. The young man was up at the top of the stairs lying on the sidewalk behind the wall when he called out to Hudson to lie down. The redshirted man was not the young man.

Ken

I supposed that could be one theory, but I don't see much in the way of evidence to support it. As far as the red shirted man, his name has been said to be 'Jerry Williamson' ... not sure if I have spelled it correctly. This information came from someone saying they were Jerry's son when the son came up to Groden one day in the plaza. The son also said Jerry's wife (the son's mother) was still alive. At the time of the assassination - Jerry would have been in his mid-twenties as well. Groden does not seem to have a lot of memory on the details for he was busy as the two of them spoke back and forth. Groden has told me that the son has come through there on at least two occasions and I have asked Robert to get a contact number for the son so that someone can see if they can get some more data on record as to what Jerry had told his family and friends about that event.

Bill Miller

[Ken Rheberg]

So Hudson was in the grass. The young man was up at the top of the stairs lying on the sidewalk behind the wall when he called out to Hudson to lie down. The redshirted man was not the young man.

Ken

I supposed that could be one theory, but I don't see much in the way of evidence to support it.

Bill Miller

The evidence is Emmett Hudson's Warren Commission testimony and the photographic record. According to Hudson, the man was lying down on the SIDEWALK when he told Hudson to lie down. The word "SIDEWALK" is the key. This eliminates redshirt man who joined Hudson BELOW the sidewalk on the GROUND (i.e. in the grass). There's only one other person from the stairway, then, who could have given Hudson the warning. That's the young man who stood next to him on the steps as seen in Muchmore and Moorman. And that young man headed for the SIDEWALK after the shots as seen in NIX.

Ken

[Miles Scull]

So Hudson was in the grass. The young man was up at the top of the stairs lying on the sidewalk behind the wall when he called out to Hudson to lie down. The redshirted man was not the young man.

Ken

I supposed that could be one theory, but I don't see much in the way of evidence to support it.

Bill Miller

The evidence is Emmett Hudson's Warren Commission testimony and the photographic record. According to Hudson, the man was lying down on the SIDEWALK when he told Hudson to lie down. The word "SIDEWALK" is the key. This eliminates redshirt man who joined Hudson BELOW the sidewalk on the GROUND (i.e. in the grass). There's only one other person from the stairway, then, who could have given Hudson the warning. That's the young man who stood next to him on the steps as seen in Muchmore and Moorman. And that young man headed for the SIDEWALK after the shots as seen in NIX.

Ken

So Hudson was in the grass. The young man was up at the top of the stairs lying on the sidewalk behind the wall when he called out to Hudson to lie down. The redshirted man was not the young man.

Ken

I supposed that could be one theory, but I don't see much in the way of evidence to support it.

Bill Miller

Both men were obviously young fellows in Hudson's mind, but to a man who was almost 60 years of age - most men under the age of 30 - 35 are considered young fellows. With Hudson watching the President's car head for the underpass - and then hearing someone telling him to get down ... he apparently wasn't aware of the man who stood below him taking the other man's place who ran off without Hudson realizing it. It's a minor thing IMO considering the event that Hudson was focused on and it damned sure won't move the colonnade move out of the way so to see Bowers window in the tower.

Bill Miller

Both men were obviously young fellows in Hudson's mind,

Why is that obvious?

but to a man who was almost 60 years of age - most men under the age of 30 - 35 are considered young fellows

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties..., and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both . He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

With Hudson watching the President's car head for the underpass - and then hearing someone telling him to get down ... he apparently wasn't aware of the man who stood below him taking the other man's place who ran off without Hudson realizing it.

OK, now before starting any further analysis based on the WC testimony let us understand the basics, please:

So, therefore, the man who ran away was the "young fellow" who sat down on the steps with Hudson & who stood up with Hudson when the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm & who ran off after Z-313 as the limo approached the steps.

Is that correct? Please confirm.

Bill Miller

Edited October 31, 2007 by Miles Scull

[Bill Miller]

The evidence is Emmett Hudson's Warren Commission testimony and the photographic record. According to Hudson, the man was lying down on the SIDEWALK when he told Hudson to lie down. The word "SIDEWALK" is the key. This eliminates redshirt man who joined Hudson BELOW the sidewalk on the GROUND (i.e. in the grass). There's only one other person from the stairway, then, who could have given Hudson the warning. That's the young man who stood next to him on the steps as seen in Muchmore and Moorman. And that young man headed for the SIDEWALK after the shots as seen in NIX.

Ken

But Ken, the landing is a sidewalk to many people. And the red shirted man was getting down on it as Nix was still standing.

Bill

[Miles Scull]

The evidence is Emmett Hudson's Warren Commission testimony and the photographic record. According to Hudson, the man was lying down on the SIDEWALK when he told Hudson to lie down. The word "SIDEWALK" is the key. This eliminates redshirt man who joined Hudson BELOW the sidewalk on the GROUND (i.e. in the grass). There's only one other person from the stairway, then, who could have given Hudson the warning. That's the young man who stood next to him on the steps as seen in Muchmore and Moorman. And that young man headed for the SIDEWALK after the shots as seen in NIX.

Ken

But Ken, the landing is a sidewalk to many people. And the red shirted man was getting down on it as Nix was still standing.

Bill

OK.

So, is Ken now wrong?

Who is the "young fellow?"

Red shirt guy?

or

The guy who runs up the stairs to the pergola?

This getting pretty silly.

Does Miller actually know?

[Bill Miller]

OK, now before starting any further analysis based on the WC testimony let us understand the basics, please:

I am not sure that someone who cannot tell Commerce Street from Elm Street can understand the basics, but OK, I'll bite.

So, therefore, the man who ran away was the "young fellow" who sat down on the steps with Hudson & who stood up with Hudson when the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm & who ran off after Z-313 as the limo approached the steps.

Is that correct? Please confirm.

Well I think that seeing how all the assassination images showing the man standing next to Hudson until the head shot to JFK are legit, then I'd say that is a mighty fine deduction you have made - pure genius I might add.

The man next to Hudson runs away and the man from the bottom step moves up towards Hudson.

Hudson seen through the pyracantha bush tracks the limo as it races away.

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

So, therefore, the man who ran away was the "young fellow" who sat down on the steps with Hudson & who stood up with Hudson when the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm & who ran off after Z-313 as the limo approached the steps.

Is that correct? Please confirm.

Well I think that seeing how all the assassination images showing the man standing next to Hudson until the head shot to JFK are legit, then I'd say that is a mighty fine deduction you have made - pure genius I might add.

What?

Wait a minute.

You are equivocating here.

You are saying that I made this deduction. I did not.

I'd say that is a mighty fine deduction you have made

Is this just more bamboozling to evade the collapse of your position & the risk of exposure to the forum?

Is this your deduction or not?

[Bill Miller]

What?

Wait a minute.

You are equivocating here.

You are saying that I made this deduction. I did not.

I don't think I'd brag about that if I was you, Miles. The man standing on the steps with Hudson had just stood up with him when the caravan turned onto Elm Street. That man can be seen in the Willis photo, The Muchmore film, Moorman's photo, and the Orville Nix film when then he turns and runs up the stairs towards the walkway. Now unless we are to believe that the Starship USS Enterprise beamed someone else up and this guy down in his place in those few seconds after the limo turned the corner and before Willis took his photo, then I'd say that by way of common sense, reasonable logic, and by applying Occams Razor that we are talking about the same individual. That would be the guy Hudson referred to as a 'young fellow'. That doesn't mean that other men around the young fellow's age could not also be referred to by Emmett as 'young fellows'. After all, I have already posted that Groden has met the son of the red shirted man who's name was (Jerry or Gerry Williamson) who was also a 'young fellow' at the time of the assassination. Now I know that sucks to you because one of those men needs to be middle aged and fairly heavy set, but seeing how your understanding of the LOS from Bowers tower to the men on the steps was nothing more than a fallacy, then you'll just have to live with that misconception you embraced so pre-maturely.

Bill Miller

More validated infromation:

Bill,

I took another walk up and down the steps this morning. What I saw was covered in my October 17 note to you:

As you know from your visits to Dealey Plaza, the steps do not fall in a straight line from the walkway to the curb. They are curved. Their actual path, from the walkway, is semi-circular extending slightly to the west above the landing and back to the east below it. Because of that, I decided to check the steps above the landing even though Hudson was never there, as far as anyone knows.

If, and this is a very big if, Hudson stood on the second step above the walkway and leaned way over the west edge of the steps, he might see a small part of the large window where Bowers stood. But there's no reason to suspect that Hudson did that, nor was there any reason to walk around on the hill and avoid the steps. And even if Hudson did do that, the second man would still have been totally blocked from Bowers' view by the pergola.

Gary Mack

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

What?

Wait a minute.

You are equivocating here.

You are saying that I made this deduction. I did not.

I don't think I'd brag about that if I was you, Miles. The man standing on the steps with Hudson had just stood up with him when the caravan turned onto Elm Street. That man can be seen in the Willis photo, The Muchmore film, Moorman's photo, and the Orville Nix film when then he turns and runs up the stairs towards the walkway. Now unless we are to believe that the Starship USS Enterprise beamed someone else up and this guy down in his place in those few seconds after the limo turned the corner and before Willis took his photo, then I'd say that by way of common sense, reasonable logic, and by applying Occams Razor that we are talking about the same individual. That would be the guy Hudson referred to as a 'young fellow'. That doesn't mean that other men around the young fellow's age could not also be referred to by Emmett as 'young fellows'. After all, I have already posted that Groden has met the son of the red shirted man who's name was (Jerry or Gerry Williamson) who was also a 'young fellow' at the time of the assassination. Now I know that sucks to you because one of those men needs to be middle aged and fairly heavy set, but seeing how your understanding of the LOS from Bowers tower to the men on the steps was nothing more than a fallacy, then you'll just have to live with that misconception you embraced so pre-maturely.

Bill Miller

More validated infromation:

Bill,

I took another walk up and down the steps this morning. What I saw was covered in my October 17 note to you:

As you know from your visits to Dealey Plaza, the steps do not fall in a straight line from the walkway to the curb. They are curved. Their actual path, from the walkway, is semi-circular extending slightly to the west above the landing and back to the east below it. Because of that, I decided to check the steps above the landing even though Hudson was never there, as far as anyone knows.

If, and this is a very big if, Hudson stood on the second step above the walkway and leaned way over the west edge of the steps, he might see a small part of the large window where Bowers stood.

Thanks Gary! This, as I have maintained all along, is what my calculations predicted.

See:

My post # 531:

QUOTE

Yes, despite the excellent & very helpful snaps from Groden (thanks!), I maintain what I said before, that Bowers could have & did see the west edge of the stairs/sidewalk.

But there's no reason to suspect that Hudson did that, nor was there any reason to walk around on the hill and avoid the steps. And even if Hudson did do that, the second man would still have been totally blocked from Bowers' view by the pergola.

Gary Mack

I think you may have not noticed something rather important.

Very important.

Vishnu: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

More to follow.

Stay tuned.

[Miles Scull]

I think you may have not noticed something rather important.

Very important.

Vishnu: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

Step One:

Basics:

[Bill Miller]

I think you may have not noticed something rather important.

Very important.

Vishnu: "Now I am become death, the destroyer of worlds"

More to follow.

Stay tuned.

Well, I won't be surprised that what you are getting at will be any more important as how you thought that we didn't see that Bowers was talking about the three men on the steps when talking about the two men he told Ball about ... that we didn't see that Commerce Street was Elm Street when it actually wasn't ... or how we didn't know the street lamp in Groden's photo was on the south pasture and not on the north side of Elm ... like how we didn't know that the steps could not be seen from the tower window where Bowers sat ... or how we didn't know the shadows of the tree foliage on the fence wee not leaves, but smoke instead which you were also shown to be wrong about. Yes, these are just a few of the misconceptions that you carried while thinking we didn't see something that only you had. And now you claim to know something else that we don't ... let us hope it is finally something you got right for a change. But seeing how we have to stay tuned, I can only assume that once again you are starting with a conclusion and trying to find the evidence for it after the fact, thus I already doubt that what you say will amount to much.

Bill Miller

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Bernice Moore]

Thanks for the input Robin & Bernice.

Winborn's quote shows exactly how confusing it is.

If what he said was accurate he was neither talking about Haygood or Hargis, it is very possible he just simply mixed them up in his mind.

If the only source of a cop riding halfway up the incline & then abandoning his bike comes from the Terminal Annex employees then, well let's just say(with all the best will in the world to those gentlemen), it doesn't mean it really occured.

If they all said one cop fell over after an attempted curb jump & another rid up the incline, then we might have a problem, the bottom line at this time though is, they are most likely talking about Haygood but we cannot be sure.

Bernice,

I just want to put a permenant link here to that enlightening "Darnell" frame.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...arnellmaybe.jpg

Did Chris post more frames than this & is it from Darnell?

If your reading this Chris & you feel like sharing more please do, I don't have it on tape anymore & haven't seen it for years.

Great capture.

Also, thanks for the Cabluck, nice spot.

That's Haygood though, not Hargis(he's already left the scene), same for Willis7 & as you said, those two snapped at virtually the same moment(Bond5 too shows Haygood at same spot).

It looks like Haygood ran for the actual corner there but, you can see him in Bond7, several feet south of the corner, climbing up the wall.

The other two bike cops I'm looking for signs of, were further back in the motorcade.

Scaggs & Bond7 show one of them beside a bus, that bus came after the one Cabluck was riding in.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...gman/Scaggs.jpg

I can't recall if Bond10 shows Haygood or that area(I know #9 doesn't) but if it does, it might show slightly more than what we see in this pan of the knoll in the Bell film, which if you check, shows the "Haygood area" in deep shadow.

No sign of a bike halfway up the incline there anyway.

http://i237.photobucket.com/albums/ff188/B...man/Belldcm.png

*************

Chris many thanks for the film clips......

Thanks Robin for all the information..posted......

Hi Alan:

The only other frame that Chris posted at the time was this below...the bottom photo....he said they were from the Couch film......

as well as the one that you have posted to, photobucket..... but check with Chris, to now make that a positive.........

and yes it is Haygood...thanks..

.....not Hargis..corrected..

There are two others here that are from the Wiegman, one said to be possibly Hargis ( marked by Robin, I think ) and in the other Haygood..

What I have posted is all I have found for now, that may be of help..

B.....

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bernice Moore

[Bill Miller]

If you ever bother to read Hudson's testimony carefully - you'd see he did mention the red shirted man, but wasn't aware that he was doing it because as he testified, 'it was an exciting time'. And its not "Miller" who said the man next to him on the steps was young, but Hudson himself. Hudson refers to the Times Herald photo and it would probably be a good idea for you to find it and look at it.

Now about that exciting time that Hudson spoke of ... it was in part why Hudson got caught up in the moment and said some things that pretty much gives one an idea as to just how much he did get caught up in the shooting. Hudson told the Commission that the time lapse for the shooting was about TWO MINUTES. which seemed to catch the interviewer by surprise. Hudson says he never saw Connally and the reason for this is apparently because he was so focused on the President. So it comes to no surprise to me as Hudson was concentrating on JFK that he didn't notice that the man next to him had turned and ran away while the red shirted man (apparently names Williamson) moved up to Emmett's position and told him to get down because someone was shooting. Not paying attention to anything else but the President, Emmett seems to have thought the man telling him to get down was the man he last remembered was standing next to him. In support of this conclusion on my part is the fact that the assassination films show the man who was next to Hudson before the shooting had stopped - had then turned and ran away up the steps and out of sight, yet Emmett said that someone (who he thought was the same man who had been next to him) was telling him REPEATEDLY to lay down.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Hudson can still be seen standing as the limo raced away towards the underpass before he laid down. The only excuse for his misremembering these moments exactly was because he was excited and was primarily focused on the President, while later bringing in his secondary recollection of the event. I see this as a simple human reaction which can be understood by simply studying the assassinations photographic record. It is however possible that because Hudson recalled the second shot that he heard as the one hitting JFK in the head - that he may have heard yet another shot after the head shot, which he would not have been the only witness to the assassination that had said this, as well.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see anybody standing up there that you can remember, during the time the president went by?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, there was a bunch of people in there, you know, a whole bunch of them - a lot of people in there - a lot of people in here.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you se anybody standing up there taking motion pictures with a movie camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Oh, yes; I seen people up there trying to get - taking pictures.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see a man with a movie picture camera?

Mr. HUDSON - Not in particular, I didn't. It was such an exciting time - now - I did notice a man back over here on this triangle.

Bill Miller

Edited October 31, 2007 by Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

And its not "Miller" who said the man next to him on the steps was young, but Hudson himself.

Bill Miller

If you carefully examine the text set next to the crop, you will see:

Miller states that this man is Hudson's "young fellow."

"young fellow"

"young fellow" is placed in quotation marks because it is a quote from Hudson's WC testimony.

See the underlined two words: young fellow (young fellow) here:

Mr. HUDSON - Well there was a young fellow, oh, I would judge his age about in his late twenties. He said he had been looking for a place to park and he walked up there and he said he finally just taken a place over there in one of them parking lots, and he come on down there and said he worked over there on Industrial and me and him both just sat there first on those steps. When the motorcade turned off of Houston onto Elm, we got up and stood up, me and him both. He was on the left side and I was on the right and so the first shot rung out and, of course, I didn't realize it was a shot, what was taking place right at that present time, and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Miller is saying that the man in Moorman immediately to Hudson's left (as pointed out by the red arrow) is the man in Hudson's testimony referred to as the (a) "young fellow."

If this is not correct, then please say so.