One Giant Spotlight For All Mankind

[Duane Daman]

Here's more from that article ... I just couldn't resist .

"One of Aldrin's most vivid recollections of the events of 1969 comes not from the surface of the moon, but from the U.S.S. Hornet, the ship that recovered the Apollo 11 command module at sea. Placed in a quarantine trailer, the astronauts were asked if they wanted to watch the TV coverage of their mission.

"And as we watched," Aldrin says quietly, "I remember turning to Neil and saying: 'Look: We missed the whole thing."

"Why do I think their lives were affected? Because they want me to know where they were when we landed on the moon. When they see me, they get reminded -- and they remember exactly where they were that moment. They know exactly what they were doing. It's crystal-clear in their minds."

Too bad it's not "crystal-clear in Buzz's mind .

Edited January 4, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Evan Burton]

"There are some questions you don't ask Buzz Aldrin —- clichés he's heard so often that they set his teeth on edge. Chief among them: How did it feel to walk on the moon?

"I try to answer," he admits wearily. "I say, 'It felt terrific. Tremendously satisfying. The mission was going well, and our training had prepared us perfectly.'

"But then people say, 'No ... how did it feel? How did it really feel?'" He bristles. "For Christ's sake, I don't know. I just don't know. I have been frustrated since the day I left the moon by that question." He shakes his head. "Some things just can't be described. And stepping onto the moon was one of them."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/07/...m=/news/feature

Yep. Do you know what one of the first things he said when he stepped on the Moon was?

"Magnificent desolation"

Do you know how many people wrote to NASA complaining about those words he used? Lots. Let's see what else your quoted article has to say:

Buzz had always enjoyed his Scotch, but now began drinking heavily. A series of accidents at the school were blamed on "supervisor error." Aldrin felt squeezed. He began to lose control. Depression and alcoholism beset him, and his license to fly was revoked: a staggering blow to the lunar module pilot of Apollo 11. After hitting rock bottom -- at one point putting a pistol to his head -- Aldrin pulled himself together and sought counseling.

There you go - there's an answer to his behaviour (ran and cried) - and it was in one of the articles you were looking at.

Also:

One of Aldrin's most vivid recollections of the events of 1969 comes not from the surface of the moon, but from the U.S.S. Hornet, the ship that recovered the Apollo 11 command module at sea. Placed in a quarantine trailer, the astronauts were asked if they wanted to watch the TV coverage of their mission.

"And as we watched," Aldrin says quietly, "I remember turning to Neil and saying: 'Look: We missed the whole thing.'

"Why? Because we didn't see it on television. We didn't share in the electrifying moment leading to touchdown. Hell, we were right there. We did it! But that's not the important thing. We missed the reaction, the emotion embodied by the sight of Walter Cronkite wiping away his tears. That sense of participation, shared by millions of people around the world -- people who had their lives affected, touched, changed."

"Why do I think their lives were affected? Because they want me to know where they were when we landed on the moon. When they see me, they get reminded -- and they remember exactly where they were that moment. They know exactly what they were doing. It's crystal-clear in their minds."

And something that should not be forgotten:

Finally, the sad fact remains: The majority of citizens are quite content to "explore strange new worlds" simply by turning on their televisions. Though opinion polls show large public enthusiasm for the space program, only a small minority of voters favor its expansion. In recent polls, only 8 percent said they would increase funding for space exploration. Faced with other choices -- like social programs -- most Americans put space exploration on their list of budgetary cuts.

Call it ignorance -- or a lack of imagination -- but political will depends a lot on public support. No matter how good the prospects for space tourism are, NASA's desire to build new boosters and space shuttles is sure to be an uphill battle.

And last - but not least - a reference to his memories of that day:

But his own memories of the Apollo era remain bittersweet.

"Going to the moon is not a remembrance filled with great happiness," Aldrin admits. "It was a traumatic period of my life. We succeeded in what we were doing -- but there were some rough edges."

[Evan Burton]

Here's more from that article ... I just couldn't resist .

"One of Aldrin's most vivid recollections of the events of 1969 comes not from the surface of the moon, but from the U.S.S. Hornet, the ship that recovered the Apollo 11 command module at sea. Placed in a quarantine trailer, the astronauts were asked if they wanted to watch the TV coverage of their mission.

"And as we watched," Aldrin says quietly, "I remember turning to Neil and saying: 'Look: We missed the whole thing."

Gee - too bad I said that many posts previously.

[John Dolva]

"But then people say, 'No ... how did it feel? How did it really feel?'" He bristles. "For Christ's sake, I don't know. I just don't know. I have been frustrated since the day I left the moon by that question." He shakes his head. "Some things just can't be described. And stepping onto the moon was one of them."

Duane: "Some things just can't be described alright ... Especially if you were never there to describe them ."

____________

In this instance, describing such a momentous event to a multitude who have no personal reference to comprehend the experience is frustrating, ie. :> were never there to gain the references that makes the desciption a correctly understood one.<

Obviously few have been to the moon (presumably also you, in spite of the Luna Tic characteristics displayed ).

It's like trying to describe a TV to a newly discovered tribe. Misunderstandings, disbeliefs and ultimately a comprehension filtered by personal experiences makes the telling near imposssible. Results are such things as air plane cults in Papua et.c.. Describing the truth is an experience that's full of frustration. This is what Buzz is referring to.

This endless grasping at any and all straws to support a ridiculous claim ('faked' Apollo missions) is futile. A belief is held so dear it becomes personal and 'the truth' and thenceforth forever overshadows the Truth. (Akin to painting oneself into a corner but refusing to admit the realisation of the silliness of it. Give it up while the going may still become good)

[Dave Greer]

In this instance, describing such a momentous event to a multitude who have no personal reference to comprehend the experience is frustrating, ie. :> were never there to gain the references that makes the desciption a correctly understood one.<

Obviously few have been to the moon (presumably also you, in spite of the Luna Tic characteristics displayed ).

It's like trying to describe a TV to a newly discovered tribe. Misunderstandings, disbeliefs and ultimately a comprehension filtered by personal experiences makes the telling near imposssible. Results are such things as air plane cults in Papua et.c.. Describing the truth is an experience that's full of frustration. This is what Buzz is referring to.

This endless grasping at any and all straws to support a ridiculous claim ('faked' Apollo missions) is futile. A belief is held so dear it becomes personal and 'the truth' and thenceforth forever overshadows the Truth. (Akin to painting oneself into a corner but refusing to admit the realisation of the silliness of it. Give it up while the going may still become good)

Trust John to word it more succinctly than anyone else could!

[Gavin Stone]

(presumably also you, in spite of the Luna Tic characteristics displayed smile.gif )

I see what you did there, good sir.

*scribbles down for future reference*

[Dave Greer]

Getting back to the thread title itself. I've dug up some more evidence appears to contradict the "huge spotlight" theory.

I've used two stills from a video clip from Apollo 17, which you can see on the ALSJ in its entirety here.

In the first still, the reflection of the lightsource is quite large. When Gene Cernan moves the handle of the rake in front of his visor, at one stage the reflection almost completely disappears. The handle is quite clearly thinner than the diameter of the reflection. How is it possible for the thin handle to almost shade the visor from the lightsource, it the size of the lightsource is comaprable to the size of the reflection? A much more likely scenario is that the angular diameter of the lightsource is a lot smaller than the reflection indicates in the first still, and that it's more comparable to the diameter of the rake handle.

This also throws a lot of doubt over Duane's theory about square and pentagonal spotlights etc, since in those images, the size of the "reflection" is a lot wider than what this GIF demonstrates the angular size of the lightsource to be. A more likely explanation is a combination of glare, and specular reflection off scratches or dust.

Intelligent comments/analyses welcome!

[Duane Daman]

It's very nice of you to want to return to the original topic of this thread Dave but your latest "evidence " looks rather lame to me and is being used as an excuse to divert attention away from the latest topic being disussed here .... The possible brainwashing and mind control of the Apollo astronauts .

That was quite a tap dance you boys did in your last several posts , but then that's what you boys do best when in a group ... Tap dance while wearing your rose colored Apollo glasses .

I promised to post some info on 'Operation Paperclip' ... So here it is , with more to come later ... Much more .

"Operation Paperclip

Code-name of the American scheme to detain top German scientists at the end of World War II and relocate them to the United States; it was originally called Operation Overcast. The scientists included Wernher von Braun and more than 100 of his colleagues who had worked on the V-2 and other "V" weapons. These personnel and the hardware that came with them formed the backbone of the future American space program.

The origins of Paperclip.

In May 1945, after the fall of the Nazi regime, Russian soldiers secured the German atomic research laboratories at the prestigious Kaiser Wilhelm Institute in the suburbs of Berlin, giving Stalin the foundations of what would become a vast Soviet nuclear arsenal. Meanwhile, US forces removed V-2 missiles from the labyrinthine Nordhausen complex, built under the Harz Mountains in central Germany, just before the Soviets took over the factory, in what would become their area of occupation. And the team which had built the V-2, led by von Braun, also fell into American hands.

Shortly afterward Major-General Hugh Knerr, deputy commander of the US Air Force in Europe, wrote: "Occupation of German scientific and industrial establishments has revealed the fact that we have been alarmingly backward in many fields of research. If we do not take the opportunity to seize the apparatus and the brains that developed it and put the combination back to work promptly, we will remain several years behind while we attempt to cover a field already exploited."

Thus began Operation Paperclip, the exercise that saw von Braun and more than 700 others spirited out of Germany from under the noses of the United State's allies. Its aim was simple: "To exploit German scientists for American research and to deny these intellectual resources to the Soviet Union."

Hidden truths.

President Truman authorized Paperclip in August 1945 and, on November 18, the first Germans reached America. Truman, however, had insisted that anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Nazism militarism" be excluded. Under this criterion even von Braun himself would have been ineligible to serve the US. A member of numerous Nazi organizations, he also held rank in the SS. Among his senior associates were Arthur Rudolph, chief operations director at Nordhausen, where 20,000 slave laborers died producing V-2s; Kurt Debus, a rocket launch specialist and SS officer whose report stated: "He should be interned as a menace to the security of the Allied Forces;" and Hubertus Strughold, later called "the father of space medicine," whose subordinates had conducted human experiments at Dachau and Auschwitz, where inmates were frozen and put into low-pressure chambers, sometimes until they died. All of these men were cleared to work for the US, their alleged crimes covered up and their backgrounds glossed over by a military which saw winning the Cold War as its all-consuming priority.

Having been transferred to their new home at Fort Bliss, Texas, a large Army installation just north of El Paso, the German scientists and engineers were given the job of training military, industrial, and university personnel in the intricacies of rockets and guided missiles and helping refurbish, assemble, and launch a number of V-2s that had been shipped from Germany to the White Sands Proving Ground in New Mexico.

http://www.daviddarling.info/encyclopedia/P/Paperclip.html

[Gavin Stone]

It's very nice of you to want to return to the original topic of this thread Dave but your latest "evidence " looks rather lame to me and is being used as an excuse to divert attention away from the latest topic being disussed here .... The possible brainwashing and mind control of the Apollo astronauts .

Well bugger me, I could have sworn the title of this thread was "One Giant Spotlight for all Mankind". You've paraded on about this spotlight for years now Duane, including reflections in the astronauts visors and you chose to completely ignore Dave's excellent post.

Why don't you answer his question?

How is it possible for the thin handle to almost shade the visor from the lightsource, it the size of the lightsource is comaprable to the size of the reflection?

[Duane Daman]

Sorry Gavin but the spotlight on the moonset will just have to be on hold for a bit .... I have found something far more interesting than the type of stage lights NASA used to fake the Apollo photography .

This is my thread and it is now about exposing the "Never A Straight Answer" gang for what they really are ... So make sure to keep your rose tinted glasses on so you won't have to look too closely at the truth about your "heros" .

OPERATION PAPERCLIP

After WWII ended in 1945, victorious Russian and American intelligence teams began a treasure hunt throughout occupied Germany for military and scientific booty. They were looking for things like new rocket and aircraft designs, medicines, and electronics. But they were also hunting down the most precious "spoils" of all: the scientists whose work had nearly won the war for Germany. The engineers and intelligence officers of the Nazi War Machine.

The U.S. Military rounded up Nazi scientists and brought them to America. It had originally intended merely to debrief them and send them back to Germany. But when it realized the extent of the scientists knowledge and expertise, the War Department decided it would be a waste to send the scientists home. Following the discovery of flying discs (foo fighters), particle/laser beam weaponry in German military bases, the War Department decided that NASA and the CIA must control this technology, and the Nazi engineers that had worked on this technology.

There was only one problem: it was illegal. U.S. law explicitly prohibited Nazi officials from immigrating to America--and as many as three-quarters of the scientists in question had been committed Nazis.

Data-Points:

Convinced that German scientists could help America's postwar efforts, President Harry Truman agreed in September 1946 to authorize "Project Paperclip," a program to bring selected German scientists to work on America's behalf during the "Cold War"

However, Truman expressly excluded anyone found "to have been a member of the Nazi party and more than a nominal participant in its activities, or an active supporter of Naziism or militarism."

The War Department's Joint Intelligence Objectives Agency (JIOA) conducted background investigations of the scientists. In February 1947, JIOA Director Bosquet Wev submitted the first set of scientists' dossiers to the State and Justice Departments for review.

The Dossiers were damning. Samauel Klaus, the State Departments representative on the JIOA board, claimed that all the scientists in this first batch were "ardent Nazis." Their visa requests were denied.

Wev was furious. He wrote a memo warning that "the best intrests of the United States have been subjugated to the efforts expended in 'beating a dead Nazi horse.'" He also declared that the return of these scientists to Germany, where they could be exploited by America's enemies, presented a "far greater security threat to this country than any former Nazi affiliations which they may have had or even any Nazi sympathies that they may still have."

When the JIOA formed to investigate the backgrounds and form dossiers on the Nazis, the Nazi Intelligence leader Reinhard Gehlen met with the CIA director Allen Dulles. Dulles and Gehlen hit it off immediatly. Gehlen was a master spy for the Nazis and had infilitrated Russia with his vast Nazi Intelligence network. Dulles promised Gehlen that his Intelligence unit was safe in the CIA.

Apparently, Wev decided to sidestep the problem. Dulles had the scientists dossier's re-written to eliminate incriminating evidence. As promised, Allen Dulles delivered the Nazi Intelligence unit to the CIA, which later opened many umbrella projects stemming from Nazi mad research. (MK-ULTRA / ARTICHOKE, OPERATION MIDNIGHT CLIMAX)

Military Intelligence "cleansed" the files of Nazi refrences. By 1955, more than 760 German scientists had been granted citizenship in the U.S. and given prominent positions in the American scientific community. Many had been longtime members of the Nazi party and the Gestapo, had conducted experiments on humans at concentration camps, had used slave labor, and had comitted other war crimes.

In a 1985 expose in the Bulletin of the Atomic Scientists Linda Hunt wrote that she had examined more than 130 reports on Project Paperclip subjects--and every one "had been changed to eliminate the security threat classification."

President Truman, who had explicitly ordered no comitted Nazis to be admitted under Project Paperclip, was evidently never aware that his directive had been violated. State Department archives and the memoirs of officials from that era confirm this. In fact, according to Clare Lasby's book Operation Paperclip, project officials "covered their designs with such secrecy that it bedeviled their own President; at Potsdam he denied their activities and undoubtedly enhanced Russian suspicion and distrust," quite possibly fueling the Cold War even further.

A good example of how these dossiers were changed is the case of Wernher von Braun. A September 18, 1947, report on the German rcoket scientist stated, "Subject is regarded as a potential security threat by the Military Governor."

The following February, a new security evaluation of Von Braun said, "No derogatory information is available on the subject...It is the opinion of the Military Governor that he may not constitute a security threat to the United States."

Here are a few of the 700 suspicious characters who were allowed to immigrate through Project Paperclip.

ARTHUR RUDOLPH; During the war, Rudolph was operations director of the Mittelwerk factory at the Dora-Nordhausen concentration camps, where 20,000 workers died from beatings, hangings, and starvation. Rudolph had been a member of the Nazi party since 1931; a 1945 military file on him said simply: "100% Nazi, dangerous type, security threat..!! Suggest internment."

But the JIOA's final dossier on him said there was "nothing in his records indicating that he was a war criminal or and ardent Nazi or otherwise objectionable." Rudolph became a US citizen and later designed the Saturn 5 rocket used in the Apollo moon landings. In 1984, when his war record was finally investigated, he fled to West Germany.

WERNHER VON BRAUN; From 1937 to 1945, von Braun was the technical director of the Peenemunde rocket research center, where the V-2 rocket --which devasted England--was developed. As noted previously, his dossier was rewritten so he didn't appear to have been an enthusiastic Nazi.

Von Braun worked on guided missles for the U.S. Army and was later director of NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center. He became a celebrity in the 1950s and early 1960s, as one of Walt Disney's experts on the "World of Tomorrow." In 1970, he became NASA's associate administrator.

KURT BLOME; A high-ranking Nazi scientist, Blome told U.S. military interrogators in 1945 that he had been ordered 1943 to experiment with plague vaccines on concentration camp prisoners. He was tried at Nuremberg in 1947 on charges of practicing euthanasia (extermination of sick prisoners), and conducting experiments on humans. Although acquitted, his earlier admissions were well known, and it was generally accepted that he had indeed participated in the gruesome experiments.

Two months after his Nuremberg acquittal, Blome was interviewed at Camp David, Maryland, about biological warfare. In 1951, he was hired by the U.S. Army Chemical Corps to work on chemical warfare. His file neglected to mention Nuremberg.

MAJOR GENERAL WALTER SCHREIBER; According to Linda Hunt's article, the US military tribunal at Nuremberg heard evidence that "Schreiber had assigned doctors to experiment on concentration camp prisoners and had made funds available for such experimentation." The assistant prosecutor said the evidence would have convicted Schreiber if the Soviets, who held him from 1945 to 1948, had made him available for trial.

Again, Schreiber's Paperclip file made no mention of this evidence; the project found work for him at the Air Force School of Medicine at Randolph Field in Texas. When columnist Drew Pearson publicized the Nuremberg evidence in 1952, the negative publicity led the JIOA, says Hunt, to arrange "a visa and a job for Schreiber in Argentina, where his daughter was living." On May 22, 1952, he was flown to Buenos Aires.

HERMANN BECKER-FREYSING and SIEGFRIED RUFF; These two, along with Blome, were amoung the 23 defendants in the Nuremberg War Trials "Medical Case." Becker-Freysing was convicted and sentenced to 20 years in prison for conducting experiments on Dachau inamtes, such as starving them, then force-feeding them seawater that had been chemically altered to make it drinkable. Ruff was acquitted (in a close decision) on charges that he had killed as many as 80 Dachau inmates in a low-pressure chamber designed to simulate altitudes in excess of 60,000 feet. Before their trial, Becker-Freysing and Ruff were paid by the Army Air Force to write reports about their grotesque experiments.

GENERAL REINHARD GEHLEN; It was five years after the end of WW2 but one of Hitler's chief intelligence officers was still on the job. From a walled-in compound in Bavaria, General Reinhard Gehlen oversaw a vast network of intelligence agents spying on Russia. His top aides were Nazi zealots who had committed some of the most notorious crimes of the war. Gehlen and his SS united were hired, and swiftly became agents of the CIA when they revealed their massive records on the Soviet Union to the US.

Gehlen derived much of his information from his role in one of the most terrible atrocities of the war: the torture, interrogation and murder by starvation of some four million Soviet prisoners. Prisoners who refused to cooperate were often tortured or summarily executed. May were executed even after they had given information, while others were simply left to starve to death. As a result, Gehlend and members of his organization maneuvered to make sure they were captured by advancing American troops rather than Russians, who would have executed them immediatly.

Two months before Germany surrendered in 1945, the Gehlen organization made its move. "Gehlen and a small group of his most senior officers carefully microfilmed the vast holding on the USSR in the military section of the German army's general staff. They packed the film in watertight steel drums and secretly buried it in a remote mountain meadow scattered throughout the Austrian Alps.

General William Donovan and Allen Dulles of the CIA were tipped off about Gehlen's surrender and his offer of Russian intelligence in exchange for a job. The CIA was soon jockeyeing with military intelligence for authority over Gehlen's microfilmed records--and control of the German spymaster. Dulles arranged for a private intelligence facility in West Germany to be established, and named it the Geheln Organization. Gehlen promisd not to hire any former SS, SD, or Gestapo members; he hired them anyway, and the CIA did not stop him. Two of Gehlen's early recruits were Emil Augsburg and Dr. Franz Six, who had been part of mobile killing squads, which killed Jews, intellectuals, and Soviet partisans wherever they found them. Other early recruits included Willi Krichbaum, senior Gestapo leader for southeastern Europe, and the Gestapo chiefs of Paris and Kiel, Germany.

With the encourgement of the CIA, Gehlen Org (Licio Gelli) set up "rat lines" to get Nazi war criminals out of Europe so they wouldn't be prosecuted. By setting up transit camps and issuing phony passports, the Gehlen Org helped more than 5,000 Nazis leave Europe and relocate around the world, especially in South and Central America. There, mass murderers like Klaus Barbie (the butcher of Lyons) helped governments set up death squads in Chile, Argentina, El Salvador, and elsewhere.

KLAUS BARBIE; Known as the Nazi butcher of Lyons, France during World War 2, Barbie was part of the SS which was responsible for the and death of thousands of French people under the Germany occupation.

HEINRICH RUPP; Some of Rupp's best work was done for the CIA, after he was imported in Operation Paperclip. Rupp has been convicted of bank fraud. He was an operative for the CIA and is deeply involved in the Savings and Loan scandals. A federal jury has indicated they believe testimony that Rupp, the late CIA Director William Casey - then Reagan's campaign manager, and Donald Gregg, now U.S. Ambassador to South Korea, flew with George Bush to Paris in 1980, during the election in which Bush was on the ticket with Ronald Reagan. The testimony states that three meetings were held on October 19 and 20 at the Hotel Florida and Hotel Crillion. The subject? According to the court testimony, the meetings were to sabotage President Jimmy Carter's reelection campaign by delaying the release of American hostages in Iran. The hostages were released on January 20, 1981, right after Reagan and Bush were sworn into office. Iran was promised return of its frozen assets in the United States and the foundation for the Iran- Contra deal was set into motion.

LICIO GELLI; Head of a 2400 member secret Masonic Lodge, P2, a neo-fascist organization, in Italy that catered to only the elite, Gelli had high connections in the Vatican, even though he was not a Catholic. P2's membership is totally secret and not even available to its Mother Lodge in England. Gelli was responsible for providing Argentina with the Exocet missile. He was a double agent for the CIA and the KGB. He assisted many former Nazi high officials in their escape from Europe to Central America. He had close ties with the Italian Mafia. Gelli was a close associate of Benito Mussolini. He was also closely affiliated with Roberto Calvi, head of the scandal-ridden Vatican Bank. Calvi was murdered. Gelli's secret lodge consisted of extremely important people, including armed forces commanders, secret service chiefs, head of Italy's financial police, 30 generals, eight admirals, newspaper editors, television and top business executives and key bankers - including Calvi. Licio Gelli and others in P2 were behind the assasination of Pope John Paul 1.

The central figure in Europe and South America that linked the CIA, Masonic Lodge, Vatican, ex-Nazis and several South American governments, the Italian government and several international banks was Licio Gelli. He, with Klaus Barbie and Heinrich Rupp, met with Ronald R. Rewald in Uruguay to arrange for the Argentine purchase of the French-made Exocet missile, used in the Falkland Island attack to kill british soldiers.

Who is Gelli and why was he so important?

To understand Gelli, one must understand the complex post war years of Europe. The biggest threat to Europe in pre-war times was Communism - it was the great fear of Communism that gave birth to the Fascists and the Nazis. Though both sides were dreaded, the Fascists represented right-wing government, while the Communist represent left-wing government. It was the right-wing that the United States and the Catholic Church desired over Communism - because Communism would destroy the capitalistic system. This is why the CIA and the Vatican had go through with Operation Paperclip. The Nazis had massive amounts of Soviet intelligence, had infilitrated Communist partisans, and were in no way going to be given up to the Soviet Union.

Gelli worked both sides. He helped to found the Red Brigade, spied on Communist partisans and worked for the Nazis at the same time, a double agent. He helped establish the Rat Line, which assisted the flight of high ranking Nazi officials from Europe to South America, with passports supplied by the Vatican and with the full acknowledgment and blessing of the United States intelligence community. While on one hand, the U.S. participated in the war crime tribunals of key Nazi officials and maintained an alliance with the Communist Soviet Union, secretly, the U.S. was preparing for the cold war and needed the help of Nazis in the eventual struggle the U.S. would have with the Soviet Union. Gelli's agreement with U.S. intelligence to spy on the Communists after the war was instrumental in saving his life. He was responsible for the murder and torture of hundreds of Yugoslavian partisans.

The Vatican provided support to Nazis and Fascists because the Communists were the real threat to the Church's survival. The Italian Communists would have taxed the Church's vast holdings and the Church has had a dismal experience with Communist governments throughout the world - where religious freedom was stamped out.

Gelli was well connected with the Vatican from the days of the Rat Line and he worked for American intelligence, as well. Gelli formed the P-2 Masonic Lodge-which did not follow the direction of any Grand Lodge-and it was supplied with a sum of $10 million a month by the CIA. Its membership was a Who's Who in the intelligence, military and Italian community. So prominent was Gelli's influence, that he was even a guest of honor at the 1981 inauguration of President Ronald Reagan.

Gelli used blackmail in order to gain prominent members of his P-2 lodge, its membership is estimated at 2400 members, including 300 of the most powerful men in the Western World.. He was a close friend of Pope Paul VI, Juan Peron of Argentina, Libyan Dictator Muammar el-Qaddafi, and many high officials in the Italian and American governments - he is also reported to have had some financial dealings with the George Bush for President campaign.

Gelli and his P-2 lodge had staggering connections to banking, intelligence and diplomatic passports. The CIA poured hundreds of millions of dollars into Italy in the form of secret subsidies for political parties, labor unions and communications businesses. At the same time the Agency continued its relationship with far- right and violent elements as a back-up should a coup be needed to oust a possible Communist government. This covert financing was exposed by the Prime Minister of Italy in a speech to Parliament. He indicates that more than 600 people in Italy still remain on the payroll of the CIA. Licio Gelli was an ardent Nazi and a perfect asset of the CIA. As part of Reinhard Gehlen's intelligence team, he had excellent contacts. Licio was the go between for the CIA and the Vatican through his P2 Lodge.

Project Paperclip was stopped in 1957, when West Germany protested to the U.S. that these efforts had stripped it of "scientific skills." There was no comment about supporting Nazis. Paperclip may have ended in 1957, but as you can see from Licio Gelli and his international dealings with the CIA in Italy/P2, and Heinrich Rupp with his involvement in October Surprise, the ramifications of Paperclip are world-wide. The Nazis became employed CIA agents, engaging in clandestine work with the likes of George Bush, the CIA, Henry Kissenger, and the Masonic P2 lodge. This is but one of the results of Operation Paperclip. Another umbrella project that was spawned from Paperclip was MK-ULTRA.

A secret laboratory was established and funded by CIA director, Allen Dulles in Montreal, Canada at McGill University in the Allen Memorial Institute headed by psychiatrist Dr. Ewen Cameron. For the next several years Dr. Ewen Cameron waged his private war in Canada. What is ironic about Dr. Cameron is that he served as a member of the Nuremberg tribunal who heard the cases against the Nazi doctors.

When it was at its height in drug experiments, operation MK-ULTRA was formed. This was the brainchild of Richard Helms who later came to be a CIA director. It was designed to defeat the "enemy" in its brain-washing techniques. MK-ULTRA had another arm involved in Chemical and Biological Warfare (CBW) known as MK-DELTA. The "doctors" who participated in these experiments used some of the same techniques as the Nazi "doctors". Techniques used by Dr. Cameron and previous Nazi scientists include electro shock, sleep deprivation, memory implantation, memory erasure, sensory modification, psychoactive drug experiments, and many more cruel practices.

Project Paperclip brought us MK-ULTRA. Paperclip ultimately brought in key players involved in the Assassination of Pope 1, October Surprise (sabotage of Carter's peace talks), and a great many other things still classified to this day. The results of Project Paperclip were devastating, and very far reaching. I guess that is what you would expect from collaborating with Nazis.

This research shows that the OSS/CIA that was formed in the National Security Act, the same agency that employed hundreds of Nazis, has been in alliance with the Vatican through various Agency connections such as Licio Gelli. The CIA/Vatican alliance that Assassinated Pope John Paul 1, JFK, and hundreds of dictators of 3rd world countries is the Illuminati.

The Bavarian Illuminati has been around for centuries in one way or another. It's presence in the 20th century is the direct result of the Nazis. The Nazi connections to the occult and the Bavarian Thule Society were parallel to the American members of 33rd degree Freemasonry. When the Operation Paperclip was successfully executed, the Nazi element of the Bavarian Thule society was fused with the American members of Freemasonry to create the Illuminati.

Operation Paperclip, MK-ULTRA, October Surprise, and George Bush are all facets of the Illuminati, a group whose ideals are rooted in the occult, and dedicated to world domination.

Soon after the American Revolution, John Robinson, a professor of rural philosophy at Edinburgh University in Scotland and member of a Freemason lodge, said that he was asked to join the Illuminati. After studying the group, he concluded that the purposes of the Illuminati were not compatible with his beliefs.

In 1798, he published a book called "Proofs Of A Conspiracy," which states:

"An association has been formed for the express purpose of rooting out all the religious establishments and overturning all the existing governments.... The leaders would rule the World with uncontrollable power, while all the rest would be employed as tools of the ambition of their unknown superiors."

The CIA and the Vatican have rooted out all the religious establishemnts in the world. The CIA has overthrown and set up dictators under their control all over the world. The CIA and the Vatican have fullfilled the purpose of the Illuminati. The CIA and the Vatican _are_ the Illuminati.

Dossier compiled by Agent Orange

bibliography: 1. It's a Conspiracy! Michael Litchfield, Earthworks Press 2. Operation Paperclip, Clare Lasby, Athenaeum 1975 3. U.S. Coverup of Nazi Scientists, Linda Hunt, Bulletin of Atomic Scientists 4. Acid Dreams, Martin Lee and Bruce Schlain, Grove Press 5. Journey Into Madness, Gordon Thomas, Bantam Books 6. Plain Speaking: An Oral Biography of Harry S. Truman, Merle Miller, New York 7. Kiss the Boys Goodbye, by Monika Jensen-Stevenson and William Stevenson. 8. Inside Job - The Looting of America's S&L, by Stephen Pizzo, Mary Fricker 9. In God's Name, An Investigation into the Murder of Pope John Paul I, by David A.Yallop. 10. The Crimes of Patriots - A True Tale of Dope. Dirty Money, and the CIA by Jonathan Kwitny. 11. Mengele - The Complete Story, by Gerald L. Posner and John Ware. 12. Blowback, America's Recruitment of Nazis and its Effects on the Cold War, by Christopher Simpson. 13. Jury Says Story of Reagan-Bush Campaign Deal With Iran Is True, San Francisco Chronicle May 5, 1990. 14. Hawaii Scheme Cost Napans $500.000, Napa Register October 3, 1983. 15. The Vatican Connection by Richard Hammer 16. The Great Heroin Coup, Drug's, Intelligence & International Fascism by Henrik Kruger 17. The Nazi Legacy by Magnus Linklater, Isabel Hilton, Neal Ascherson 18. The P-2 Time Bomb Goes Off, May 1984 The Economist

http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Fascism/...rclip_file.html

[Duane Daman]

Read more about NASA's Nazi's here .

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Paperclip

[Gavin Stone]

Getting back to the thread title itself. I've dug up some more evidence appears to contradict the "huge spotlight" theory.

I've used two stills from a video clip from Apollo 17, which you can see on the ALSJ in its entirety here.

In the first still, the reflection of the lightsource is quite large. When Gene Cernan moves the handle of the rake in front of his visor, at one stage the reflection almost completely disappears. The handle is quite clearly thinner than the diameter of the reflection. How is it possible for the thin handle to almost shade the visor from the lightsource, it the size of the lightsource is comaprable to the size of the reflection? A much more likely scenario is that the angular diameter of the lightsource is a lot smaller than the reflection indicates in the first still, and that it's more comparable to the diameter of the rake handle.

This also throws a lot of doubt over Duane's theory about square and pentagonal spotlights etc, since in those images, the size of the "reflection" is a lot wider than what this GIF demonstrates the angular size of the lightsource to be. A more likely explanation is a combination of glare, and specular reflection off scratches or dust.

Intelligent comments/analyses welcome!

Dave,

May I suggest you post this excellent piece on a new thread to stop the "this is my thread and I'll post what I want to" attitude

[Duane Daman]

Dave,

May I suggest you post this excellent piece on a new thread to stop the "this is my thread and I'll post what I want to" attitude

Dave can post whatever he wants , wherever he wants ... and you can do the same .

I can understand why you don't want to learn the truth about the Nazis who faked the moon landings ... but instead of starting yet ANOTHER new topic about Apollo , I decided to post this damaging evidence on this thread .

I sure hope that's okay with you .

Edited January 4, 2008 by Duane Daman

[Dave Greer]

Dave,

May I suggest you post this excellent piece on a new thread to stop the "this is my thread and I'll post what I want to" attitude

Dave can post whatever he wants , wherever he wants ... and you can do the same .

I can understand why you don't want to learn the truth about the Nazis who faked the moon landings ... but instead of starting yet ANOTHER new topic about Apollo , I decided to post this damaging evidence on this thread .

I sure hope that's okay with you .

Duane

You raise some very interesting points about Operation Paperclip. I wouldn't be at all surprised if the documentation surrounding various former Nazis was altered to make them more palatable as potential US citizens. The very simple answer is that the engineering knowledge these guys had was just too important to let something as banal as a murky and nefarious history get in the way of military and technological progress. Possibly not the attitude you or I would take in 2008, but over sixty years ago, with the rising threat of the USSR looming over the Eastern horizon, priorities may have been different.

I haven't read in detail about Operation Paperclip and just know the basic bullet points, but it does sound like good material for a discussion on a political conspiracy forum. Whether it could be used in relation to the "moon hoax" - well, the only tenuous link I can see is "Von Braun was a Nazi, therefore not to be trusted, he was at the heart of the Apollo programme, hence it was faked", an argument which doesn't convince me at all I'm afraid. Could you spell out exactly how you feel Operation Paperclip fits into the moon hoax theory, or was my summary above quite close?

[Dave Greer]

It's very nice of you to want to return to the original topic of this thread Dave but your latest "evidence " looks rather lame to me and is being used as an excuse to divert attention away from the latest topic being disussed here .... The possible brainwashing and mind control of the Apollo astronauts .

Come on Duane old bean! Do you really consider that as a proper rebuttal to photographic evidence? You'd be all over anyone who used that in relation to any of your or Jack's photographic claims.

Look a the stills. Do you honestly think the handle of that rake is wide enough to block out the light of a "superlight" which is proposed by HBs as being responsible for the apparently large reflection? If not, why does it appear to block it out in the bottom sill? Does this not prove, at the very least, that the light source has a much smaller angular size than suggested by the size of the reflection? Do you have a better explanation or interpretation?

I'm sure you're capable of addressing this point, since you've presented plenty of photographic evidence related to visors and light-sources on this thread and others. You're failure to touch this one will speak volumes!

That was quite a tap dance you boys did in your last several posts , but then that's what you boys do best when in a group ... Tap dance while wearing your rose colored Apollo glasses .

You gave your opinion that what some astronauts said was evidence that they had been brainwashed or hypnotised. Those comments were put into context by Evan with reference to what they said about going to the moon in various documentaries, biographies, interviews etc. Your standard reply when you have no comeback is to accuse people of tap dancing. Can you address the actual points raised and show where Evan was factually incorrect? At the moment all you have is your opinion as to why the astronauts said what they said about Apollo. Your opinion is that they were "Manchurian candidates". My opinion is that they'd been through an overwhelming experience (walking on the moon) and in some cases were suffering to varying degrees of an extreme version of "after the Lord Mayor's show". Why is my opinion less valid than yours? Or were you just doing your own little tap-dance?