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Thomas H. Purvis Posted Oct 19 2007, 01:20 PM

Antti (& any others);

I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it should be explained here.

1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)

Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in those who are not listening to what is stated.

The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was BELOW the level of the EOP.

The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.

NOW!

Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.

So!

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?

Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see, they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.

However, one may want to take a close look at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)

As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the Z210 range.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the story".

At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the Limosine!

Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me, that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.

JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the car with his head in her lap.

Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her direction and began slumping down into the seat.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms

And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.

I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.

We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset me later because they said we slipped down into the floor, that John slid off, fell over into my lap. Those little jump seats were not very big and there was no way that he could have slid to the floor, there is no way either of us could have got to the floor.

The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband."

and out of the line of fire.[/b]

NOPE!

When JBC went over/down across the seats with his head in Nellie's lap, he exposed his back and right shoulder to the bullet which exited the head of JFK (aka the third/last/final shot).

When this bullet exited:

Mrs. CONNALLY- The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

MR. Altgens - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Thus, JBC in fact went over/was partially pulled down, directly into the line of fire for the bullet as it traversed through the mid-brain of JFK, exited the skull in the frontal lobe, and thereafter struck JBC in the shoulder which was exposed across the open area between the jump seats where JBC & Nellie were located.

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey stated: "And, now you know the rest of the story". as regards the WHY that JBC's coat had to be laundered prior to being examined.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

Sitting upright in the jump seat at Z313, it was physically impossible for cerebral tissue from the head of JFK to have splattered all over the back side of the coat worn by JBC.

However, when leaning across the open area between the jump seats with his back and shoulder exposed, at the time of the third/last/final shot impact, which also blew cerebral tissue forward in the limosine, the entire backside of JBC's coat would have been covered with blood/cerebral tissue.

One would have thought that some of these "Blood Splatter" experts would have taken the time to have figured this one out also.

Tom

Tom,

Sorry for my delayed reply. Thanks for your further explanation.

I'm still having trouble understanding this scenario. I can understand that you say that the third shot to the head occurred at the Altgens position and that this bullet also struck JBC. However, I have diffficulties in visualizing this bullets path.

You say that:

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

From this I can recap the following: 3rd bullet strike: JFK's head is relatively horizontal (you stated vertical in a prior post?), he is struck in the neck near the collar of his coat, this bullet travels through the soft tissues of the neck to enter the skull at the EOP...

I can not visualize this happening, as it seems quite unrealistic to me. Not that most things in this case don't seem that way, but this is just, well, how should I say it, unbelievable to me.

To back up a bit, the underlying assumption is that also this bullet is fired from the TSBD SW6 floor window. It is therefore traveling in a downward angle of say 10 degrees (just to make it simple). However, the victim (JFK) is still sitting semi-upright, with his head tilted forward (I'd say less than perfectly horizontal, as opposed to completely horizontal) and to the side.

Problem: although we agree that JFK's neck is exposed due to this position, his head is only midway between being horizontal from vertical. Not completely horizontal and definitely not beyond horizontal. Therefore I claim that JFK's head is in a slight upward angle, say 10 degrees up from a perfect horizontal tilt. (tilted forward, towards being horizontal, but not horizontal).

One can try this at home in front of the computer when sitting down, one's head will not be perfectly horizontal, that is no matter how hard one tries to bend one's neck into a 90 degree angle. Ok, maybe some gymnast can do it, I can't.

I do claim that JFK's head's/neck's position can be seen from the Zapruder film and possibly the other footage showing the limousine approaching the Altgens position. This will demonstrate the position of JFK and his head/neck at or near the James Altgens positon on Elm Street.

Considering that the bullet is approaching in a downward angle of an assumed 10 degrees and the head of JFK is in an upward angle of an assumed 10 degrees, I see no way how it is possible for a bullet to strike the neck in the soft fleshy section and to then travel upwards to enter the skull at the EOP.

In fact had the bullet travelled in the way you say, a midget in the trunk with a gun could have done the trick, but that's silly. Perhaps it was a ricochet...?

Antti;

It is recognized that neither you, (nor anyone else for that matter) are in possession of the kinds of documents and information in my possession which are relative to the survey work done for various assassination re-enactments.

So.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

1. The true downward angle of fire for the third/last/final/aka directly out in front of James Altgens shot, was, almost 12-degrees downward (which incorporates the downward slope of Elm St.).

3. Now, in event that you accept that Abraham Zapruder was standing on the pedestal and filming the Presidential Motorcade, while leaning his head so far to the left that the filming actually makes the Presidential Limo appear to be moving on an "uphill" grade, when in fact it was travelling on a "downhill" grade, then, that is of course your perogative.

Personally, I like to kind of "rotate" the film down in order to get the correct perspective, relative to the true downward angle of fire and downward grade of Elm St.

2. Not unlike the JBC wounds, unless one is familiar with survey functions, they tend to forget that we work in two separate "planes".

The "Vertical Angle" as well as the "Horizontal Angle".

For purposes of the JFK assassination, the Vertical Angle references the downward angle of fire, and the Horizontal Angle references the "Cross-Angle" of fire, which most persons tend to forget about.

This is of course partially why they insist that the SBT is a farce, as they reference the "Cross-Angle" of fire through the chest of JBC which the bullet would have had to make.

Of course, they also make this reference with JBC sitting erect, when in fact the angular pathway through the chest of JBC for the bullet which created these wounds, is in fact a "COMBINATION" of the two angles.

This combination includes the actual DOWNWARD angle of fire, complimented by the CROSS-ANGLE of fire as JBC was in fact laying across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that the bullet struck him in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and thereafter continued on a DOWNWARD angle to strike the right fifth rib.

If one is "into" positioning, then merely sit in a chair and thereafter lean far to your left, supporting yourself with the left arm/elbow on another chair which is approximately 15 to 18 inches to the left of the chair in which you are sitting.

Now, with your torso in an almost horizontal position to the left, roll your right shoulder slightly backwards and look slightly over your shoulder behind you.

This position exposes the right shoulder to the bullet (third/last/final/James Altgens shot), in the position at which the bullet, after having exited the head of JFK, then struck JBC in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and then penetrated through the chest on a downward angle through the horizontal torso of JBC.

Now, if you want to sit JBC up vertically with these wounds, you have now created a "Cross-Angle" of penetration through his chest, which as most are aware, totally negates the physical ability of CE399 to have struck JBC in the right shoulder and to have then gone crossways through his chest.

OK!

Now, back to JFK in the next chapter.

However, just recall, that the angle of penetration through the neck to skull-through the head of JFK is in fact a combination angle of approximately 12 degrees downward, with a cross-angle of fire of approximately 7-degrees from right to left.

So, when one makes an attempt to correlate the entry wounds of this shot to JFK's head, and one holds the head in an erect postiion, nothing will fit.

JFK is/was leaning forward and to the left, with the right side of his head turned somewhat upwards, thus exposing the right rear area of his neck and head to the bullet pathway which had a downward angle of approximately 12-degrees downward as well as 7-degrees cross-angle.

So, this:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

"ragged slanting 15 X 6mm" wound to the back of the head, when the head is held erect:

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

This angle of impact to the skull created the elongated entry wound through the skull which the autopsy surgeons clearly located and measured.

Perhaps another try!

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

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Thomas H. Purvis Posted Oct 19 2007, 01:20 PM

Antti (& any others);

I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it should be explained here.

1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)

Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in those who are not listening to what is stated.

The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was BELOW the level of the EOP.

The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.

NOW!

Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.

So!

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?

Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see, they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.

However, one may want to take a close look at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)

As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the Z210 range.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the story".

At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the Limosine!

Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me, that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.

JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the car with his head in her lap.

Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her direction and began slumping down into the seat.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms

And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.

I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.

We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset

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Thomas H. Purvis Posted Oct 19 2007, 01:20 PM

Antti (& any others);

I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it should be explained here.

1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)

Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in those who are not listening to what is stated.

The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was BELOW the level of the EOP.

The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.

NOW!

Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.

So!

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?

Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see, they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.

However, one may want to take a close look at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)

As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the Z210 range.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the story".

At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the Limosine!

Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me, that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.

JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the car with his head in her lap.

Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her direction and began slumping down into the seat.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms

And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.

I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.

We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset me later because they said we slipped down into the floor, that John slid off, fell over into my lap. Those little jump seats were not very big and there was no way that he could have slid to the floor, there is no way either of us could have got to the floor.

The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband."

and out of the line of fire.[/b]

NOPE!

When JBC went over/down across the seats with his head in Nellie's lap, he exposed his back and right shoulder to the bullet which exited the head of JFK (aka the third/last/final shot).

When this bullet exited:

Mrs. CONNALLY- The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

MR. Altgens - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Thus, JBC in fact went over/was partially pulled down, directly into the line of fire for the bullet as it traversed through the mid-brain of JFK, exited the skull in the frontal lobe, and thereafter struck JBC in the shoulder which was exposed across the open area between the jump seats where JBC & Nellie were located.

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey stated: "And, now you know the rest of the story". as regards the WHY that JBC's coat had to be laundered prior to being examined.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

Sitting upright in the jump seat at Z313, it was physically impossible for cerebral tissue from the head of JFK to have splattered all over the back side of the coat worn by JBC.

However, when leaning across the open area between the jump seats with his back and shoulder exposed, at the time of the third/last/final shot impact, which also blew cerebral tissue forward in the limosine, the entire backside of JBC's coat would have been covered with blood/cerebral tissue.

One would have thought that some of these "Blood Splatter" experts would have taken the time to have figured this one out also.

Tom

Tom,

Sorry for my delayed reply. Thanks for your further explanation.

I'm still having trouble understanding this scenario. I can understand that you say that the third shot to the head occurred at the Altgens position and that this bullet also struck JBC. However, I have diffficulties in visualizing this bullets path.

You say that:

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

From this I can recap the following: 3rd bullet strike: JFK's head is relatively horizontal (you stated vertical in a prior post?), he is struck in the neck near the collar of his coat, this bullet travels through the soft tissues of the neck to enter the skull at the EOP...

I can not visualize this happening, as it seems quite unrealistic to me. Not that most things in this case don't seem that way, but this is just, well, how should I say it, unbelievable to me.

To back up a bit, the underlying assumption is that also this bullet is fired from the TSBD SW6 floor window. It is therefore traveling in a downward angle of say 10 degrees (just to make it simple). However, the victim (JFK) is still sitting semi-upright, with his head tilted forward (I'd say less than perfectly horizontal, as opposed to completely horizontal) and to the side.

Problem: although we agree that JFK's neck is exposed due to this position, his head is only midway between being horizontal from vertical. Not completely horizontal and definitely not beyond horizontal. Therefore I claim that JFK's head is in a slight upward angle, say 10 degrees up from a perfect horizontal tilt. (tilted forward, towards being horizontal, but not horizontal).

One can try this at home in front of the computer when sitting down, one's head will not be perfectly horizontal, that is no matter how hard one tries to bend one's neck into a 90 degree angle. Ok, maybe some gymnast can do it, I can't.

I do claim that JFK's head's/neck's position can be seen from the Zapruder film and possibly the other footage showing the limousine approaching the Altgens position. This will demonstrate the position of JFK and his head/neck at or near the James Altgens positon on Elm Street.

Considering that the bullet is approaching in a downward angle of an assumed 10 degrees and the head of JFK is in an upward angle of an assumed 10 degrees, I see no way how it is possible for a bullet to strike the neck in the soft fleshy section and to then travel upwards to enter the skull at the EOP.

In fact had the bullet travelled in the way you say, a midget in the trunk with a gun could have done the trick, but that's silly. Perhaps it was a ricochet...?

Antti;

It is recognized that neither you, (nor anyone else for that matter) are in possession of the kinds of documents and information in my possession which are relative to the survey work done for various assassination re-enactments.

So.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

1. The true downward angle of fire for the third/last/final/aka directly out in front of James Altgens shot, was, almost 12-degrees downward (which incorporates the downward slope of Elm St.).

3. Now, in event that you accept that Abraham Zapruder was standing on the pedestal and filming the Presidential Motorcade, while leaning his head so far to the left that the filming actually makes the Presidential Limo appear to be moving on an "uphill" grade, when in fact it was travelling on a "downhill" grade, then, that is of course your perogative.

Personally, I like to kind of "rotate" the film down in order to get the correct perspective, relative to the true downward angle of fire and downward grade of Elm St.

2. Not unlike the JBC wounds, unless one is familiar with survey functions, they tend to forget that we work in two separate "planes".

The "Vertical Angle" as well as the "Horizontal Angle".

For purposes of the JFK assassination, the Vertical Angle references the downward angle of fire, and the Horizontal Angle references the "Cross-Angle" of fire, which most persons tend to forget about.

This is of course partially why they insist that the SBT is a farce, as they reference the "Cross-Angle" of fire through the chest of JBC which the bullet would have had to make.

Of course, they also make this reference with JBC sitting erect, when in fact the angular pathway through the chest of JBC for the bullet which created these wounds, is in fact a "COMBINATION" of the two angles.

This combination includes the actual DOWNWARD angle of fire, complimented by the CROSS-ANGLE of fire as JBC was in fact laying across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that the bullet struck him in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and thereafter continued on a DOWNWARD angle to strike the right fifth rib.

If one is "into" positioning, then merely sit in a chair and thereafter lean far to your left, supporting yourself with the left arm/elbow on another chair which is approximately 15 to 18 inches to the left of the chair in which you are sitting.

Now, with your torso in an almost horizontal position to the left, roll your right shoulder slightly backwards and look slightly over your shoulder behind you.

This position exposes the right shoulder to the bullet (third/last/final/James Altgens shot), in the position at which the bullet, after having exited the head of JFK, then struck JBC in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and then penetrated through the chest on a downward angle through the horizontal torso of JBC.

Now, if you want to sit JBC up vertically with these wounds, you have now created a "Cross-Angle" of penetration through his chest, which as most are aware, totally negates the physical ability of CE399 to have struck JBC in the right shoulder and to have then gone crossways through his chest.

OK!

Now, back to JFK in the next chapter.

However, just recall, that the angle of penetration through the neck to skull-through the head of JFK is in fact a combination angle of approximately 12 degrees downward, with a cross-angle of fire of approximately 7-degrees from right to left.

So, when one makes an attempt to correlate the entry wounds of this shot to JFK's head, and one holds the head in an erect postiion, nothing will fit.

JFK is/was leaning forward and to the left, with the right side of his head turned somewhat upwards, thus exposing the right rear area of his neck and head to the bullet pathway which had a downward angle of approximately 12-degrees downward as well as 7-degrees cross-angle.

So, this:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

"ragged slanting 15 X 6mm" wound to the back of the head, when the head is held erect:

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

This angle of impact to the skull created the elongated entry wound through the skull which the autopsy surgeons clearly located and measured.

Perhaps another try!

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect.

And, "above" becomes a "relative" term.

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Thomas H. Purvis Posted Oct 19 2007, 01:20 PM

Antti (& any others);

I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it should be explained here.

1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)

Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in those who are not listening to what is stated.

The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was BELOW the level of the EOP.

The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.

NOW!

Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.

So!

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?

Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see, they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.

However, one may want to take a close look at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)

As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the Z210 range.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the story".

At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the Limosine!

Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me, that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.

JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the car with his head in her lap.

Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her direction and began slumping down into the seat.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms

And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.

I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.

We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset me later because they said we slipped down into the floor, that John slid off, fell over into my lap. Those little jump seats were not very big and there was no way that he could have slid to the floor, there is no way either of us could have got to the floor.

The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband."

and out of the line of fire.[/b]

NOPE!

When JBC went over/down across the seats with his head in Nellie's lap, he exposed his back and right shoulder to the bullet which exited the head of JFK (aka the third/last/final shot).

When this bullet exited:

Mrs. CONNALLY- The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

MR. Altgens - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Thus, JBC in fact went over/was partially pulled down, directly into the line of fire for the bullet as it traversed through the mid-brain of JFK, exited the skull in the frontal lobe, and thereafter struck JBC in the shoulder which was exposed across the open area between the jump seats where JBC & Nellie were located.

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey stated: "And, now you know the rest of the story". as regards the WHY that JBC's coat had to be laundered prior to being examined.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

Sitting upright in the jump seat at Z313, it was physically impossible for cerebral tissue from the head of JFK to have splattered all over the back side of the coat worn by JBC.

However, when leaning across the open area between the jump seats with his back and shoulder exposed, at the time of the third/last/final shot impact, which also blew cerebral tissue forward in the limosine, the entire backside of JBC's coat would have been covered with blood/cerebral tissue.

One would have thought that some of these "Blood Splatter" experts would have taken the time to have figured this one out also.

Tom

Tom,

Sorry for my delayed reply. Thanks for your further explanation.

I'm still having trouble understanding this scenario. I can understand that you say that the third shot to the head occurred at the Altgens position and that this bullet also struck JBC. However, I have diffficulties in visualizing this bullets path.

You say that:

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

From this I can recap the following: 3rd bullet strike: JFK's head is relatively horizontal (you stated vertical in a prior post?), he is struck in the neck near the collar of his coat, this bullet travels through the soft tissues of the neck to enter the skull at the EOP...

I can not visualize this happening, as it seems quite unrealistic to me. Not that most things in this case don't seem that way, but this is just, well, how should I say it, unbelievable to me.

To back up a bit, the underlying assumption is that also this bullet is fired from the TSBD SW6 floor window. It is therefore traveling in a downward angle of say 10 degrees (just to make it simple). However, the victim (JFK) is still sitting semi-upright, with his head tilted forward (I'd say less than perfectly horizontal, as opposed to completely horizontal) and to the side.

Problem: although we agree that JFK's neck is exposed due to this position, his head is only midway between being horizontal from vertical. Not completely horizontal and definitely not beyond horizontal. Therefore I claim that JFK's head is in a slight upward angle, say 10 degrees up from a perfect horizontal tilt. (tilted forward, towards being horizontal, but not horizontal).

One can try this at home in front of the computer when sitting down, one's head will not be perfectly horizontal, that is no matter how hard one tries to bend one's neck into a 90 degree angle. Ok, maybe some gymnast can do it, I can't.

I do claim that JFK's head's/neck's position can be seen from the Zapruder film and possibly the other footage showing the limousine approaching the Altgens position. This will demonstrate the position of JFK and his head/neck at or near the James Altgens positon on Elm Street.

Considering that the bullet is approaching in a downward angle of an assumed 10 degrees and the head of JFK is in an upward angle of an assumed 10 degrees, I see no way how it is possible for a bullet to strike the neck in the soft fleshy section and to then travel upwards to enter the skull at the EOP.

In fact had the bullet travelled in the way you say, a midget in the trunk with a gun could have done the trick, but that's silly. Perhaps it was a ricochet...?

Antti;

It is recognized that neither you, (nor anyone else for that matter) are in possession of the kinds of documents and information in my possession which are relative to the survey work done for various assassination re-enactments.

So.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

1. The true downward angle of fire for the third/last/final/aka directly out in front of James Altgens shot, was, almost 12-degrees downward (which incorporates the downward slope of Elm St.).

3. Now, in event that you accept that Abraham Zapruder was standing on the pedestal and filming the Presidential Motorcade, while leaning his head so far to the left that the filming actually makes the Presidential Limo appear to be moving on an "uphill" grade, when in fact it was travelling on a "downhill" grade, then, that is of course your perogative.

Personally, I like to kind of "rotate" the film down in order to get the correct perspective, relative to the true downward angle of fire and downward grade of Elm St.

2. Not unlike the JBC wounds, unless one is familiar with survey functions, they tend to forget that we work in two separate "planes".

The "Vertical Angle" as well as the "Horizontal Angle".

For purposes of the JFK assassination, the Vertical Angle references the downward angle of fire, and the Horizontal Angle references the "Cross-Angle" of fire, which most persons tend to forget about.

This is of course partially why they insist that the SBT is a farce, as they reference the "Cross-Angle" of fire through the chest of JBC which the bullet would have had to make.

Of course, they also make this reference with JBC sitting erect, when in fact the angular pathway through the chest of JBC for the bullet which created these wounds, is in fact a "COMBINATION" of the two angles.

This combination includes the actual DOWNWARD angle of fire, complimented by the CROSS-ANGLE of fire as JBC was in fact laying across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that the bullet struck him in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and thereafter continued on a DOWNWARD angle to strike the right fifth rib.

If one is "into" positioning, then merely sit in a chair and thereafter lean far to your left, supporting yourself with the left arm/elbow on another chair which is approximately 15 to 18 inches to the left of the chair in which you are sitting.

Now, with your torso in an almost horizontal position to the left, roll your right shoulder slightly backwards and look slightly over your shoulder behind you.

This position exposes the right shoulder to the bullet (third/last/final/James Altgens shot), in the position at which the bullet, after having exited the head of JFK, then struck JBC in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and then penetrated through the chest on a downward angle through the horizontal torso of JBC.

Now, if you want to sit JBC up vertically with these wounds, you have now created a "Cross-Angle" of penetration through his chest, which as most are aware, totally negates the physical ability of CE399 to have struck JBC in the right shoulder and to have then gone crossways through his chest.

OK!

Now, back to JFK in the next chapter.

However, just recall, that the angle of penetration through the neck to skull-through the head of JFK is in fact a combination angle of approximately 12 degrees downward, with a cross-angle of fire of approximately 7-degrees from right to left.

So, when one makes an attempt to correlate the entry wounds of this shot to JFK's head, and one holds the head in an erect postiion, nothing will fit.

JFK is/was leaning forward and to the left, with the right side of his head turned somewhat upwards, thus exposing the right rear area of his neck and head to the bullet pathway which had a downward angle of approximately 12-degrees downward as well as 7-degrees cross-angle.

So, this:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

"ragged slanting 15 X 6mm" wound to the back of the head, when the head is held erect:

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

This angle of impact to the skull created the elongated entry wound through the skull which the autopsy surgeons clearly located and measured.

Perhaps another try!

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect.

And, "above" becomes a "relative" term.

Antti:

Shot#1-----------aka CE399 into back, lead fragment (from CE840) out front of neck.

Shot#2------------Shot to "cowlick" of rear of JFK's head at Z313 when head is tilted slightly forward and down.

Lead fragment from this shot to wrist of JBC.

Shot#3-----------Even the FBI knew that a shot had entered the base of the head of JFK at the edge of the hairline (as is indicated in this photo. This is the shot which penetrated the raised coat collar, struck JFK in the edge of the hairline, and thereafter struck the skull in the EOP regior.

The third/last/final shot which struck down directly in front of James Altgens, and upon exited the head of JFK went on to strick JBC in the back, penetrate the chest, and ultimately exit the chest to strike JBC in the left leg.

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Tom,

Do you have in your materials, a drawing, or some sort of diagram, showing the final bullet's path (from TSBD, to JFK' neck - head to Connally). It would help a lot in terms of understanding exactly what you are explaining. Of particular interest would be the bullet's path from the point it strikes JFK to the point it strikes JBC. So if there is any way to enlarge this part?

I can sort of understand how this final bullet could strike Connally (the angles ofthe bullet and Connally's position sort of make sense), although I still tend to lean towards a bullet striking his back much earlier that the Altgens position. Like I said earlier, I base my opinion on the Zapruder film and the testimony of the Connally's (although it is not in perfect harmony with the Zapruder film evidence).

Right now, unfortunately, I can not understand, from your explanation, what happens to the bullet, nor it's flight path, from the point it hits JFK in the neck to when it hits JBC near his shoulder blade.

Thanks.

Antti

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Thomas H. Purvis Posted Oct 19 2007, 01:20 PM

Antti (& any others);

I am currently in argument with one of the so-called greats of the medical evidence on another talk show, and since this has more or less been my home for the longest time, then it would be supposed that it should be explained here.

1. Many think there is confusion on the part of Dr. Humes/Boswell/Finck in locating the entrance wound into the back of the head of JFK. (Above the EOP/Below the EOP)

Actually, not unlike most of the other evidence, the confusion lies in those who are not listening to what is stated.

The entry point through the SCALP was at the lower edge of the hairline at the back of the neck/base of the skull of JFK, and was BELOW the level of the EOP.

The bullet tunnelled through the soft tissue at the base of the neck, to strike the skull ABOVE the EOP.

NOW!

Were JFK sitting in an erect position (as he is at Z313) and such a bullet impact struck on a downward firing angle of approximately 15-degrees downward, then it would be physically impossible for that bullet to have immediately, upon impact, to have turned upwards on an angle which would have taken it through the soft tissue at the base of the skull, to ultimately impact with the skull in the EOP vicinity.

So!

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

I do find your take here to be quite sound. A few follow-up questions, since you say there were two shots to the head, and the second shot to the head (the final shot) occurred at James Altgens position, what film, or photo would have captured this event? Can you give an approximate Zapruder film frame or other?

Not unlike other things in the Zapruder film that one will not see, they will not see the impact of this, the final shot.

However, one may want to take a close look at:

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

(as well as those frames on each side of Z341)

As well as questioning exactly why the "Sprocket Holes" have the same demonstrated problem as those once missing frames of the film in the Z210 range.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

Mr. ALTGENS - I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

Because, you see, even up to that time I didn't know that the President had been shot previously. I still thought up until that time that all I heard was fireworks and that they were giving some sort of celebration to the President by popping these fireworks. It stunned me so at what I saw that I failed to do my duty and make the picture that I was hoping to make.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck

There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey once stated: "Now, you know the rest of the story".

At least as to why Jackie determined it prudent to vacate the Limosine!

Can you show supporting evidence for your claim? I would refer to their testimonies and the Zapruder film, which both indicate to me, that John Connally was already seriously wounded at the time that his wife pulled him down, and out of the line of fire.

JBC suffered a broken wrist from impact of a bullet fragment from the Z313 headshot at the time that he went over into Nellie's side of the car with his head in her lap.

Nellie did not "pull him down", she merely grabbed JBC when he went into her direction and held onto him after he went over into her direction and began slumping down into the seat.

Mrs. CONNALLY. No, he turned away from me. I was pretending that I was him. I never again looked in the back seat of the car after my husband was shot. My concern was for him, and I remember that he turned to the right and then just slumped down into the seat, so that I reached over to pull him toward me. X was trying to get him down and me down. The jump seats were not very roomy, so that there were reports that he slid into the seat of the car, which he did not; that he fell over into my lap, which he did not.

I just pulled him over into my arms

And then he just recoiled and just sort of slumped in his seat.

I thought he was dead. When you see a big man totally defenseless like that, then you do whatever you think you can do to help most and the only thing I could think of to do was to pull him down out of the line of fire, or whatever was happening to us and I thought if I could get him down, maybe they wouldn't hurt him anymore. So, I pulled him down in my lap.

We learned later--I read a lot of stories that upset me later because they said we slipped down into the floor, that John slid off, fell over into my lap. Those little jump seats were not very big and there was no way that he could have slid to the floor, there is no way either of us could have got to the floor.

The only thing I could do was pull him down and by leaning over him, I hoped if anything else happened, they wouldn't hurt him anymore. I never looked back after John was hit. I heard Mrs. Kennedy say, "they have shot my husband."

and out of the line of fire.[/b]

NOPE!

When JBC went over/down across the seats with his head in Nellie's lap, he exposed his back and right shoulder to the bullet which exited the head of JFK (aka the third/last/final shot).

When this bullet exited:

Mrs. CONNALLY- The third shot that I heard I felt, it felt like spent buckshot falling all over us, and then, of course, I too could see that it was the matter, brain tissue, or whatever, just human matter, all over the car and both of us.

MR. Altgens - There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Thus, JBC in fact went over/was partially pulled down, directly into the line of fire for the bullet as it traversed through the mid-brain of JFK, exited the skull in the frontal lobe, and thereafter struck JBC in the shoulder which was exposed across the open area between the jump seats where JBC & Nellie were located.

And, as Mr. Paul Harvey stated: "And, now you know the rest of the story". as regards the WHY that JBC's coat had to be laundered prior to being examined.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/frazr2.htm

Mr. FRAZIER - It is different in that the President's clothing had not been cleaned. It had only been dried. The blood was dried. However, the Governor's garments had been cleaned and pressed.

Sitting upright in the jump seat at Z313, it was physically impossible for cerebral tissue from the head of JFK to have splattered all over the back side of the coat worn by JBC.

However, when leaning across the open area between the jump seats with his back and shoulder exposed, at the time of the third/last/final shot impact, which also blew cerebral tissue forward in the limosine, the entire backside of JBC's coat would have been covered with blood/cerebral tissue.

One would have thought that some of these "Blood Splatter" experts would have taken the time to have figured this one out also.

Tom

Tom,

Sorry for my delayed reply. Thanks for your further explanation.

I'm still having trouble understanding this scenario. I can understand that you say that the third shot to the head occurred at the Altgens position and that this bullet also struck JBC. However, I have diffficulties in visualizing this bullets path.

You say that:

1. The actual first point of impact was actually the coat of JFK at the junction of where the collar turns down.

Due to the acute/oblique position of the coat/collar at the point of impact, the bullet traversed through the fabric on an angle, and although it penetrated the coat as well as the liner, the two holes are not exactly/directly in alignment when the cloth is flattened out.

2. The bullet then struck the base of the skull of JFK at the lowere edge of the hairline.

3. Due to the position in which JFK was in at the time of impact, leaning/bent/well forward with his head down and his face slightly turned, the back of his neck and head were exposed in a horizontal/horizontal-downward position.

4. This position is how the striking bullet managed to strike at the base of the hairline below the level of the EOP, traverse through the soft flesh of the neck, and then ultimately strike the skull in the vicinity of the EOP.

5. This is also the WHY? that the entrance wound through the skull of JFK had an abnormally extended length, as the bullet struck the skull on the same actute/oblique angle as it penetrated throught the coat and the sof tissues at the base of the skull.

Dr. Boswell, in his autopsy sheet drawing merely drew in the direction of the bullet based on the vertical position in which the drawing was made.

When one takes the actual pathway of the bullet:

Base of skull below EOP at edge of hairline-----to/through soft tissue of neck------------to elongated skull impact slightly above EOP------------------to impact with tip/upper edge of occipital lobe of brain---------------

Then one must either accept that either a midget was hiding in the trunk of the Presidential Limo and fired on an upward position, or else, JFK's head was not in the vertical posiltion at the time of impact of this bullet.

From this I can recap the following: 3rd bullet strike: JFK's head is relatively horizontal (you stated vertical in a prior post?), he is struck in the neck near the collar of his coat, this bullet travels through the soft tissues of the neck to enter the skull at the EOP...

I can not visualize this happening, as it seems quite unrealistic to me. Not that most things in this case don't seem that way, but this is just, well, how should I say it, unbelievable to me.

To back up a bit, the underlying assumption is that also this bullet is fired from the TSBD SW6 floor window. It is therefore traveling in a downward angle of say 10 degrees (just to make it simple). However, the victim (JFK) is still sitting semi-upright, with his head tilted forward (I'd say less than perfectly horizontal, as opposed to completely horizontal) and to the side.

Problem: although we agree that JFK's neck is exposed due to this position, his head is only midway between being horizontal from vertical. Not completely horizontal and definitely not beyond horizontal. Therefore I claim that JFK's head is in a slight upward angle, say 10 degrees up from a perfect horizontal tilt. (tilted forward, towards being horizontal, but not horizontal).

One can try this at home in front of the computer when sitting down, one's head will not be perfectly horizontal, that is no matter how hard one tries to bend one's neck into a 90 degree angle. Ok, maybe some gymnast can do it, I can't.

I do claim that JFK's head's/neck's position can be seen from the Zapruder film and possibly the other footage showing the limousine approaching the Altgens position. This will demonstrate the position of JFK and his head/neck at or near the James Altgens positon on Elm Street.

Considering that the bullet is approaching in a downward angle of an assumed 10 degrees and the head of JFK is in an upward angle of an assumed 10 degrees, I see no way how it is possible for a bullet to strike the neck in the soft fleshy section and to then travel upwards to enter the skull at the EOP.

In fact had the bullet travelled in the way you say, a midget in the trunk with a gun could have done the trick, but that's silly. Perhaps it was a ricochet...?

Antti;

It is recognized that neither you, (nor anyone else for that matter) are in possession of the kinds of documents and information in my possession which are relative to the survey work done for various assassination re-enactments.

So.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z341.jpg

1. The true downward angle of fire for the third/last/final/aka directly out in front of James Altgens shot, was, almost 12-degrees downward (which incorporates the downward slope of Elm St.).

3. Now, in event that you accept that Abraham Zapruder was standing on the pedestal and filming the Presidential Motorcade, while leaning his head so far to the left that the filming actually makes the Presidential Limo appear to be moving on an "uphill" grade, when in fact it was travelling on a "downhill" grade, then, that is of course your perogative.

Personally, I like to kind of "rotate" the film down in order to get the correct perspective, relative to the true downward angle of fire and downward grade of Elm St.

2. Not unlike the JBC wounds, unless one is familiar with survey functions, they tend to forget that we work in two separate "planes".

The "Vertical Angle" as well as the "Horizontal Angle".

For purposes of the JFK assassination, the Vertical Angle references the downward angle of fire, and the Horizontal Angle references the "Cross-Angle" of fire, which most persons tend to forget about.

This is of course partially why they insist that the SBT is a farce, as they reference the "Cross-Angle" of fire through the chest of JBC which the bullet would have had to make.

Of course, they also make this reference with JBC sitting erect, when in fact the angular pathway through the chest of JBC for the bullet which created these wounds, is in fact a "COMBINATION" of the two angles.

This combination includes the actual DOWNWARD angle of fire, complimented by the CROSS-ANGLE of fire as JBC was in fact laying across the open area in between the jump seats at the time that the bullet struck him in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and thereafter continued on a DOWNWARD angle to strike the right fifth rib.

If one is "into" positioning, then merely sit in a chair and thereafter lean far to your left, supporting yourself with the left arm/elbow on another chair which is approximately 15 to 18 inches to the left of the chair in which you are sitting.

Now, with your torso in an almost horizontal position to the left, roll your right shoulder slightly backwards and look slightly over your shoulder behind you.

This position exposes the right shoulder to the bullet (third/last/final/James Altgens shot), in the position at which the bullet, after having exited the head of JFK, then struck JBC in the right shoulder, just to the right of the shoulder blade, and then penetrated through the chest on a downward angle through the horizontal torso of JBC.

Now, if you want to sit JBC up vertically with these wounds, you have now created a "Cross-Angle" of penetration through his chest, which as most are aware, totally negates the physical ability of CE399 to have struck JBC in the right shoulder and to have then gone crossways through his chest.

OK!

Now, back to JFK in the next chapter.

However, just recall, that the angle of penetration through the neck to skull-through the head of JFK is in fact a combination angle of approximately 12 degrees downward, with a cross-angle of fire of approximately 7-degrees from right to left.

So, when one makes an attempt to correlate the entry wounds of this shot to JFK's head, and one holds the head in an erect postiion, nothing will fit.

JFK is/was leaning forward and to the left, with the right side of his head turned somewhat upwards, thus exposing the right rear area of his neck and head to the bullet pathway which had a downward angle of approximately 12-degrees downward as well as 7-degrees cross-angle.

So, this:

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...Vol17_0036a.htm

"ragged slanting 15 X 6mm" wound to the back of the head, when the head is held erect:

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

This angle of impact to the skull created the elongated entry wound through the skull which the autopsy surgeons clearly located and measured.

Perhaps another try!

Becomes this when the head is held in the horizontal position.

Commander HUMES - Yes, sir. This exhibit is a grey suit coat stated to have been worn by the President on the day of his death. Situated to the right of the midline high in the back portion of the coat is a defect, one margin of which is semicircular.

Situated above it just below the collar is an additional defect.

And, "above" becomes a "relative" term.

KENNEDY AND LINCOLN

Pages 202 & 204

Sometimes, it helps to see a second doctor for another opinion!

"The jacket had a second tiny penetrating hole, just at the lower edge of the collar, through both jacket and lining, directly above the hole through which the bullet obviously entered. There was no such second hole in the back of the shirt at the higher location."

note: " directly above the hole through which the bullet obviously entered" is in reference to the lower entrance hole in the back/shoulder and is merely a reference point for referring to the location of the collar hole.

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Tom,

Do you have in your materials, a drawing, or some sort of diagram, showing the final bullet's path (from TSBD, to JFK' neck - head to Connally). It would help a lot in terms of understanding exactly what you are explaining. Of particular interest would be the bullet's path from the point it strikes JFK to the point it strikes JBC. So if there is any way to enlarge this part?

I can sort of understand how this final bullet could strike Connally (the angles ofthe bullet and Connally's position sort of make sense), although I still tend to lean towards a bullet striking his back much earlier that the Altgens position. Like I said earlier, I base my opinion on the Zapruder film and the testimony of the Connally's (although it is not in perfect harmony with the Zapruder film evidence).

Right now, unfortunately, I can not understand, from your explanation, what happens to the bullet, nor it's flight path, from the point it hits JFK in the neck to when it hits JBC near his shoulder blade.

Thanks.

Antti

One of those complicated answers.

Yes, as with all of the shots, I have drawings for shot#3 as well.

This includes the "Cross-angle" of fire from the TSDB to the Limousine and it's occupants, as platted onto the WC Survey Plat, as well as other drawings of JFK's head position and JBC's position.

And, someday, I will find exactly what shed/where that box of Kennedy Information is located.

As of right now, I have dug through those boxes with the shot#1/aka Z399 and shot#2/aka Z313/aka Cowlick Entry, so much in posting that information that I can no longer hardly find anything related to any single topic.

And that is why, rest assured, this will be the last time that I dig through any of it before re-boxing it all up and giving it to my son.

Shot#1/aka CE399 has been provided.

Here is shot#2/aka the Z313 impact to the cowlick area.

Perhaps, If I can ever find the Shot#3 box and it's drawings, I will provide it to someone.

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