The "Headshots"

[Lee Forman]

First off - I am enjoying this post immensely, and hat's off...lot's to consider here - much I can agree with or at a minimum, concede as possible.

Hey Tom.

I find this to be a highly plausible and logical scenario - it also meshes well with the point I was trying to make elsewhere, as to a botched 'graze' shot. However, a few questions:

- You are calling this shot #2 - so preceeding shot to the head would have been the side entry? Just behind the ear?

Nope! The preceeding shot was shot#1/aka CE399 which only lodged into the back of JFK a short distance, with the small cone-shaped/flat-based 0.9grain/4.5mm width lead fragment which has disappeared from CE840 having come out the anterior throat of JFK due to have been sheared from the base of the bullet due to it's "base-first" impact with the right tranverse process of the C7 vertebrae.

I have a hard time with this response and I'll tell you why. In the first place, even if the bullet had lodged into Kennedy's back and then been forced out due to CPR at Parkland - there is too much with respect to the chain of evidence and other material which suggests that ce399 was nothing but a plant. It would have had to have passed through a jacket, shirt, skin and muscle and then stopped. Why would it have stopped at all, unless it met bone? And even if it did not meet with bone, it would not have been found in the pristine condition that it was - I accept the possibility of damage to the chest, on the basis of work done by Lifton and others which prove that photos were taken of the chest cavity - however, there is just too insignificant an amount missing from ce399 to cause the throat wound? And the bullet didn't seem to react to the impact of the fabric and the skin and muscle it encountered?

- This is 'shot #2' however, the second 'headshot' - not necessarily the 'second' shot fired?

Z313 is the SECOND SHOT fired in the assassination shot sequence. The "Shooter", whoever it was or was not, had approximately 5.6 to 5.9 seconds in which to re-acquire the target, which was most assuredly time enough for most anyone to do so utilizing the scope.

And, it was an "almost" miss as it was so high that had the Presidential Limo actually been driving a mile or two per hour slower, then the shot would have gone completely over the head of JFK.

Got it. And again, if we consider Greer braking at an inopportune moment - if you will - then whomever it was tracking Kennedy's head at the time the shot was fired would not have been prepared for this sudden shift.

- Have you considered the angle/trajectory and managed to theorize as to the shooter's location based upon this 'graze' shot?

The "back angle"/trajectory is totally consistant with a shot from the sixth floor of the TSDB. Add to that the fact that a portion of the copper jacket of this bullet, which was severely fragmented, was an exact ballistic match to the rifle found on the sixth floor, and that leaves little doubt that this shot absolutely came from that location.

What about Five? Is it not a possibility.

- Would the impact of this graze shot have flipped open the scalp forward, and created a fracture line at the top of the scalp itself?

Absolutely, and I will eventually get to that drawing as well.

Since I have never been able to find that "box" with the shot#3 data, as well as a portion of the shot#2/aka Z313 impact, I am having to more or less "wing" this and re-create the drawings.

In which case, the scalp would have had to have been placed back into position prior to the autopsy photos in addition to possibly being connected to the so-called 'surgery' which Hume noted?

- Would the resulting split round have been responsible for creating the dent in the chrome around the windshield? The blood on the windshield, Connally's wounds, etc.?

Beyond any reasonable doubt! And, the "key" to all of this is what it takes for the relatively soft bone of the skull to basically cut a 6.5mm Carcano bullet in half.

Which I am also getting to.

Please continue - this seems very likely.

- When you mention a third shot - it sounds as if you are speaking to the shot in the back, as opposed to another head shot?

The THIRD SHOT/aka that shot which occurred some 30-feet farther down Elm St., directly in front of James Altgens, is the SECOND shot to strike JFK in the head.

If we don't have another computer meltdown, hopefully we will get to that shot as well.

Your computer meltdowns maye be the result of nasty items coming from this Forum - which knocked my machine out cold once and tried to repeat the performance.

- How do you account for the blood/brain matter which struck Hargis & Chaney - is that the third shot?

Personally, I would doubt that the third shot is responsible for having blown any cerebral tissue out the right hand side of the car due to the cross-angle of fire as well as JFK's head at the time of impact.

However, Altgens clearly testified that debri was blown in his direction.-

"There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing, so much so that it indicated to me that the shot came out of the left side of his head. Also, the fact that his head was covered with blood, the hairline included, on the left side all the way down, with no blood on his forehead or face"

As to the motorcycle cops "driving into" the cerebral spray/mist of the first headshot/aka Z313 imact, I have no doubts about this.

The spray was blown "upwards" by the force of the bullet fragments as well as the internal pressure within the skull cavity.

And, thereafter, not unlike rainfall, it had to fall somewhere.

So, driving into falling rain on a motorcycle is about like hitting a bug that may be only hovering.

The forward speed of the motorcycle would make it seem as if the debri/spray were "blown backwards" into one.

It works - except for the fragment of bone which struck Hargis.

How do you account for the Parkland Doctor's witnessing the cavity at the rear of the head - is this associated with the first headshot?

Nope! The Last/Final shot down in front of James Altgens position. And, barring meltdown, I will redraw and demonstrate it, along with show where it can be found on the lateral X-ray as well.

No offense - I have zero confidence in the x-rays.

- If Oswald (the shooter/whoever it was) alegedly fired three rounds, how does this fit into the grand scheme of things, given the multiple other accounts of bullets striking other locations, unless there was more than one shooter present? eg - sot that 'bucked up' the grass at the concrete skirt, shot that struck Elm, shot that struck the curb at Main st and wounded Tague - at a minimum?

Dealy plaza was examined multiple times, and although there are a wide variety of nicks, etc; on concrete curbs, as well as some old flaws in the top of the manhole cover, there has never been any confirmation of any other bullets found, as well as no indications of any found to have struck anywhere with the exception of the Tague hit.

As to shots that struck Elm St: First off, copper jacketed bullets do not create sparks, and, copper jacketed bullets striking tar asphalt, absolutely do not even stand the potential of forcing agregate (rocks with the ability to creat sparks) together to create a spark.

Mr. West and I discussed the multiple "search" for any such damage to streets and curbs, extensively.

He even provided me with some of those newspaper clippings which showed persons reaching down to the grass, etc;.

Yet, of his personal knowledge, other than the "Tague" curb strike, no other location was ever found in which it could be stated that a bullet struck.

And, bullets striking the ground/grass, would not create a "furrow" unless fired directly horizontal with the plane of the ground, as well as the fact that unless impaired in velocity, they would go so deep that one would not likely locate them without a shovel.

I'm okay with that. It would appear, for all intents and purposes, that if indeed we had a hit or hits in this area they were fired from behind the fence at minimal elevation. For reasons totally unknown - and as per your comments - no official record.

- How are you accounting for the throat wound?

The anterior throat wound was created by the small 4.5mm width, cone-shaped; oval based lead fragment which was found in the left rear floorboard, and which fragment was squeezed out the base of CE 399 due to the external pressure/forces exerted onto the bullet as it passed through a tree limb of the live oak tree.

As CE399 progressively began to "collapse" it's copper jacket due to these external forces, this small protrusion, not unlike exactly what a tube of toothpaste does, forced this small portion of the lead core out the base of the bullet..

Due to the "base-first" attitude of the bullet at the time of impact (due to the loss of stabililty in flight and end-over-end tumbling rotation), this small lead fragment was sheared from the base of the bullet due to impact with the right transverse process of the C7 vertebrae. Thereafter to exit the throat and thusly creat the reported 3mm to 5mm wound.

It should be further noted that this fragment, although weighed and photographed by Robert Frazier, disappeared from the FBI Ballistics Laboratory, and was removed by none other than William Sullivan.

Additionally, the copper jacket at the base of CE399 clearly demonstrated the impact damage created into the base of the bullet due to this impact with the vertebrae.

However, at some point in time between when CE399 was given to the National Archives and the HSCA investigation, someone with access to the evidence, physically removed that portion of the copper jacket which covers a portion of the base of the bullet. Thus removing evidence of this impact.

This would require a 'tumbling round' or 'tree limb strike' scenario?

It is absolutely no coincidence that the base of CE399 measures exactly 4mm X 7mm, and the "punch-type" wound of entry into the back of JFK also measures 4mm X 7mm.

No offense - but the x-ray had an image of a metallic circular item that also measure exactly 6.5mm - which was looked at by the experts as a total impossibility.

- What about the movement of the head - slightly forward from what we have available in the extant z-film footage - what accounts for the rearward jerk if not another shot following this one from the front?

Due to the problems with the Zapruder film, it would be difficult to fully explain what we "think" we often see.

However, the entire forward force of the bullet at shot#2/aka Z313 is being exerted forward against the skull at a given point.

Which by all known standards should make the head immediately move forward to an extent.

Thereafter, when the "skull cap" section of JFK's head, as well as that skull bone in the frontal lobe region is removed as a result of the bullet, then the intense internal pressure inside the skull as a result of the bullet, is released.

Release of any such force, creates a "kickback" force, in which the only movable portion of JFK was his neck.

Therefore, I personally have little difficulty in seeing that there should be an initial "forward thrust" of some appreciable degree, followed by an immediate and completely obvious "kickback" as the proverbial "jet effect" forces JFK's neck to yield and thus cause the head to go to the rear.

As someone who may have more info with respect to a 'different' version of the z-film, the jury is still out.

I think that last one is the most significant for me anyway - since I know you doubt the existence of a shooter at the front.

Carry on - very interested...

- lee

There may have been a dozen other shooters for all that I know.

However, the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical evidence indicates that JFK was struck by three shots, as well as the fact that all of these shots were fired from the rear and from a higher elevation.

Let's not forget the guy at UPI who was presented with the firsthand opportunity to examine the film - that's in Fetzer's MIDP - if you don't have it, I volunteer to buy you a copy for your opinion. Or I can scan the relevant section.

Those who "fell for" and believed the WC scenario of Z313 being the last shot fired are the ones who have had to come up with other assassins to explain what they did not take the time to research.

LHO was an excellent shot! So, even if I were to attempt to frame someone else, I most assuredly would not be dumb enough to attempt to frame someone who was a poor shot, for what was still a relatively good shooting feat.

I don't believe LHO fired a single shot. So far, I haven't seen anything to convince me otherwise - only the contrary.

Mr. Spock would declare that as being completely "Illogical".

[Bill Miller]

'Thomas H. Purvis' date='Feb 2 2008, 07:58 PM' post='135821'

For those who have not become completely disoriented and/or lost in chasing mythological creatures firing rifles (or whatever) from multitudes of locations, perhaps the following may be of some assistance.

A. Happens to be the approximate entry location for the entry of the Z313 impact headshot. AKA/ the SECOND shot/aka the "Cowlick" entry.

I have no desire to argue against a point that starts out with your opinion that anyone who disagrees would be disoriented. Such wording is usually used in propaganda IMO. I have spoken to a blood spatter expert who says that only one impact to the president's head is seen on film. That the blood spatter seen on film indicates a shot from the front and not the rear. That had an already weakened head by the first bullet had been hit again - a second large spatter would have taken place and been visible on film. Also that the head would have been nearly obliterated by a second shot. FWIW ... I do not see how such a piece of forensic evidence based on an established science can be ignored and that your opening sentence may apply here in a blood spatter experts mind.

Bill Miller

Edited February 22, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Antti Hynonen]

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QUOTE(Lee Forman @ Feb 21 2008, 07:32 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas H. Purvis @ Feb 21 2008, 05:30 PM)

Trying an upload!

Hey Tom.

I find this to be a highly plausible and logical scenario - it also meshes well with the point I was trying to make elsewhere, as to a botched 'graze' shot. However, a few questions:

- You are calling this shot #2 - so preceeding shot to the head would have been the side entry? Just behind the ear?

- This is 'shot #2' however, the second 'headshot' - not necessarily the 'second' shot fired?

- Have you considered the angle/trajectory and managed to theorize as to the shooter's location based upon this 'graze' shot?

- Would the impact of this graze shot have flipped open the scalp forward, and created a fracture line at the top of the scalp itself?

- Would the resulting split round have been responsible for creating the dent in the chrome around the windshield? The blood on the windshield, Connally's wounds, etc.?

- When you mention a third shot - it sounds as if you are speaking to the shot in the back, as opposed to another head shot?

- How do you account for the blood/brain matter which struck Hargis & Chaney - is that the third shot?

- How do you account for the Parkland Doctor's witnessing the cavity at the rear of the head - is this associated with the first headshot?

- If Oswald allegedly fired three rounds, how does this fit into the grand scheme of things, given the multiple other accounts of bullets striking other locations, unless there was more than one shooter present? eg - sot that 'bucked up' the grass at the concrete skirt, shot that struck Elm, shot that struck the curb at Main st and wounded Tague - at a minimum?

- How are you accounting for the throat wound?

- What about the movement of the head - slightly forward from what we have available in the extant z-film footage - what accounts for the rearward jerk if not another shot following this one from the front?

I think that last one is the most significant for me anyway - since I know you doubt the existence of a shooter at the front.

Carry on - very interested...

- lee

One Step/shot back:

Shot#1

Fired in the vicinity of Z204/206.

Attached image(s)

Reduced: 74% of original size [ 864 x 672 ] - Click to view full image

--------------------

Tom,

Regarding this shot to the upper right section of the back: How do you explain the related exit wound, given the picture demonstrated entry location? I can agree with the approximate entry as presented by you.

Edited February 22, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Thomas H. Purvis]

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Find Member's Posts Yesterday, 07:41 PM IP: 205.188.117.196 | Post #12 |

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QUOTE(Lee Forman @ Feb 21 2008, 07:32 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas H. Purvis @ Feb 21 2008, 05:30 PM)

Trying an upload!

Hey Tom.

I find this to be a highly plausible and logical scenario - it also meshes well with the point I was trying to make elsewhere, as to a botched 'graze' shot. However, a few questions:

- You are calling this shot #2 - so preceeding shot to the head would have been the side entry? Just behind the ear?

- This is 'shot #2' however, the second 'headshot' - not necessarily the 'second' shot fired?

- Have you considered the angle/trajectory and managed to theorize as to the shooter's location based upon this 'graze' shot?

- Would the impact of this graze shot have flipped open the scalp forward, and created a fracture line at the top of the scalp itself?

- Would the resulting split round have been responsible for creating the dent in the chrome around the windshield? The blood on the windshield, Connally's wounds, etc.?

- When you mention a third shot - it sounds as if you are speaking to the shot in the back, as opposed to another head shot?

- How do you account for the blood/brain matter which struck Hargis & Chaney - is that the third shot?

- How do you account for the Parkland Doctor's witnessing the cavity at the rear of the head - is this associated with the first headshot?

- If Oswald allegedly fired three rounds, how does this fit into the grand scheme of things, given the multiple other accounts of bullets striking other locations, unless there was more than one shooter present? eg - sot that 'bucked up' the grass at the concrete skirt, shot that struck Elm, shot that struck the curb at Main st and wounded Tague - at a minimum?

- How are you accounting for the throat wound?

- What about the movement of the head - slightly forward from what we have available in the extant z-film footage - what accounts for the rearward jerk if not another shot following this one from the front?

I think that last one is the most significant for me anyway - since I know you doubt the existence of a shooter at the front.

Carry on - very interested...

- lee

One Step/shot back:

Shot#1

Fired in the vicinity of Z204/206.

Attached image(s)

Reduced: 74% of original size [ 864 x 672 ] - Click to view full image

--------------------

Tom,

Regarding this shot to the upper right section of the back: How do you explain the related exit wound, given the picture demonstrated entry location? I can agree with the approximate entry as presented by you.

All that I know of the "entry point" is that it was SUPRA-Clavicle/aka above the collarbone; that the Clark Panel as well as the HSCA determined that there was fracture and possible fragmentation to the right transverse process of a vertebrae which appeared to be either the C7 or the T1 vertebrae.

Now, since the first rib attaches to the T1 vertebrae at the transverse process, and there was no observable damage to any rib bone in the X-rays, as well as the fact that the autopsy surgeons found no such damage; and yet they did find the bruising to the very apex of the right lung, then this bullet appears to have struck JFK in the back at some point which would range from mid-point above the C7 vertebrae to mid point below the C7 vertebrae.

And, however remote the possibility, there remains another unexplored item which until verified and/or negated, may add additional light on this subject.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

'Thomas H. Purvis' date='Feb 2 2008, 07:58 PM' post='135821'

For those who have not become completely disoriented and/or lost in chasing mythological creatures firing rifles (or whatever) from multitudes of locations, perhaps the following may be of some assistance.

A. Happens to be the approximate entry location for the entry of the Z313 impact headshot. AKA/ the SECOND shot/aka the "Cowlick" entry.

I have no desire to argue against a point that starts out with your opinion that anyone who disagrees would be disoriented. Such wording is usually used in propaganda IMO. I have spoken to a blood spatter expert who says that only one impact to the president's head is seen on film. That the blood spatter seen on film indicates a shot from the front and not the rear. That had an already weakened head by the first bullet had been hit again - a second large spatter would have taken place and been visible on film. Also that the head would have been nearly obliterated by a second shot. FWIW ... I do not see how such a piece of forensic evidence based on an established science can be ignored and that your opening sentence may apply here in a blood spatter experts mind.

Bill Miller

"I have no desire to argue against a point that starts out with your opinion that anyone who disagrees would be disoriented. Such wording is usually used in propaganda IMO."

Then why not make an attempt to "argue" the points of forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact?

Answer: Simply because it takes time; money; effort; and true research ability to do so.

Whereas one can "look" at the Zfilm, just as they look at clouds in the sky, and creatively create many things in their maind.

"I have spoken to a blood spatter expert who says that only one impact to the president's head is seen on film."

First off, hopefully, that "blood spatter expert" IS NOT Debra Conway's sister, who through some "AMAZING KRESGIN" method of evaluation has looked at the Zfilm and determined a shot from the front.

Last time that I checked, one truly had to do as did the FBI & SS. That being observe all of the blood/cerebral splatter on the rear of the jump seats in which Nellie & JBC sat, as well as all of that debri & bullet fragments which went FORWARD.

Now, I would agree that the Zfilm (as we now see it), contains evidence of ONLY the Z313 impact.

The mere fact that the SS with a first generation copy of the film was able to determine the impact down directly in front of James Altgens position,

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

Mr. ALTGENS - Because I didn't see who fired it. After the Presidential car moved a little past me, I took another picture--now, just let me back up here--I was prepared to make a picture at the very instant the President was shot. I had refocused to 15 feet because I wanted a good closeup of the President and Mrs. Kennedy, and that's why I know that it would be right at 15 feet, because I had prefocused in that area, and I had my camera almost to my eye when it happened and that's as far as I got with my camera.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z342.jpg

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now! A prudent "researcher" would (at least in the schools which I attended) take the time to correlate ALL of the testimonies of witnesses with the Z-film, as well as take the time to truly determine the position which James Altgens occupied on Elm St., along with taking into consideration the factual events that the WC was going to not even call James Altgens to testify, and did so ONLY after this was reported in the news.

And, even then, the "DRAFT" of the WC's report was already turned in for editing when James Altgens was questioned, along with a few other "KEY" witnesses I might add, at the US Post Office in Dallas, TX.

Then of course, if one bothered to follow through on the above, then they just may question exactly why it was that the WC had no inkling that the third shot was fired AFTER the Z313 impact and thusly decided for us that there was nothing in the film past Z334 worth looking at.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is an album that I prepared of black and white photographs made of the majority of the frames in the Zapruder film----

Mr. SPECTER. Starting with what frame number?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Starting with frame 171, going through frame 334.

Mr. SPECTER. And why did you start with frame 171?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. This is the frame that the slides start from. This was an arbitrary frame number that was decided on as being far enough back to include the area that we wanted to study.

Mr. SPECTER. Is that a frame where President Kennedy comes into full view after the motorcade turns left off of Houston onto Elm Street?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes, yes.

Mr. SPECTER. And how was the ending point of that frame sequence, being No. 334, fixed?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It was fixed as several frames past the shot that hit the President in the head. Frame 313 is the frame showing the shot to the President's head, and it ends at 334.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z334.jpg

Anyone here see James Altgens in this?????

Most curious, since a critical frame of the Zfilm in which James Altgens could be readily seen, was published in newspapers across the US within a day or so after 11/22/63.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Additionally:

If recalled, on 2/7/64, the FBI, in their completely seperate and independent Assassination re-enactment, left the third shot/aka the Altgens location shot in place.

Now, exactly why would they do this????

Of course, when Shaneyfelt; Hoover; Specter; Ford & Company got into the act, then they decided that they needed to look at a "copy of a copy".

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; Mr. Zapruder, on realizing what he had in his photographs, took them immediately to a local Dallas processing plant, had them processed, and had three copies made. He turned two copies of those movies over to representatives of the Secret Service.

The FBI was given one of the copies by the Secret Service. The Secret Service loaned a copy to us long enough for us to make a copy for our use, which we did, and this copy is the one that I have been examining. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"The FBI was given one of the copies by the Secret Service."

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"That had an already weakened head by the first bullet had been hit again - a second large spatter would have taken place and been visible on film."

In that regards, methinks your "Expert" had best stick with their "Amazing Kresgin" film interpretation and stay away from phyiscs.

After the cerebral cavity has been ruptured, with large portions of the skull now absent, there happens to be no "container" for the pressure created by the bullet to build up in and thus create the "Giant Spatter" of which they think they should see.

The large "spatter" is primarily a result of the escape of such pressures, which in order to build, must have a location for the pressures to build.

"That the blood spatter seen on film indicates a shot from the front and not the rear."

BS!

Should I shoot some vessel in which the only violation of the cavity is the point of entry, then the only point at which the buildup of internal pressure can escape is out the point of entry.

One can rest assured that JFK was not shot in the front of the head by some bullet which suddenly and magically disappeared without creation of either an exit hole in the back of the skull, or a complete (forgive me) "blowout" of the rear of the skull.

Now, forgive me for interjecting FACTS into this Amazing Kresgin scenario, however, JFK has an observable (as well as measureable) bullet entrance wound in the rear of the skull, in the vicinity of the cowlick.

Autopsy photographs also demonstrate an anomaly which for all purposes apears to be a corresponding entry into the scalp at that same location.

JFK's anterior/posterior X-ray clearly demonstrates where a bullet began to EXIT the skull, and this exit point happens to be forward of the rearward entry wound.

Forward of this beginning exit point of a bullet, JFK's skull is GONE!

Fragments from the exiting bullet went FORWARD, striking the windshield as well as most probably the windshield molding.

Now, perhaps your "EXPERT" needs to cease looking at fuzzy films and make an attempt to learn something in regards to forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical sciences.

"Also that the head would have been nearly obliterated by a second shot."

At least your "EXPERT" has some knowledge about something! And since the SECOND SHOT TO THE HEAD/aka the Altgens impact which struck down in front of James ALtgens, encountered an already weakend and compromised skull, it severely fractured and fragmented the remaining skull at the rear/base/occipital region of the skull.

All of which many of those who have not completely evaluated the evidence wish to categorize as a "Blowout" created by some mythololgical shooter from the front.

When in reality it is nothing more that the severe fracture and fragmentation of an already severely weakened and compromised skull, as created by a bullet which struck the skull at an obtuse angle, and thusly compounded/aka blown backwards by whatever small amount of internal pressure the bullet created within the already severely compromised skull/vessel.

"I do not see how such a piece of forensic evidence based on an established science can be ignored and that your opening sentence may apply here in a blood spatter experts mind."

Hate to be the one to so inform you, but your "forensic evidence", as established by someone looking at some second and/or third generation copy of the Z-film, would be laughed out of any podunkville Court in the land.

The "established science" to which you refer. happens to have a considerable amount of variables in which, if one ignores the pathological aspects, is nothing more than "Voodoo Science".

Lastly!

I have absolutely no qualms in regards to answering any of the often "confusing" questions in regards to the forensic; ballistic; pathological; and/or physical evidence.

However, despite what many may think, my true name is not John McAdams, and I have far better things to do than waste time "debunking" BS in which someone who apparantly has limited their research to "Looking at the Z-Film" dreams up.

Ever tried to tell someone that the clouds did not look like ships and/or butterflies?

Try telling our local "swamp rats" that they neither saw, nor were kidnapped by an UFO!

http://www.nicap.org/pascagoulaupdate.htm

Note: In addition to making one "cognitively impaired", that first run shine will also make one see and believe most anything.

But, if one "believes" that they see something, then in their mind, they can actually see it.

Amazing what the "mind" is capable of fabricating!

So, in a nutshell, please be my guest to inform your "Expert" that their completely unsupported hypothesis which has no basis in fact when compared with the actual physical evidence of pathological damage, is a CROCK!

Of course, quite probably that person, or their sibling will read it here anyway.

[Charles Drago]

Quoting the Warren Commission Report in the effort to discover the truth about the Kennedy assassination is like quoting David Irving to discover the truth about the Holocaust.

Heil be seeing you.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Quoting the Warren Commission Report in the effort to discover the truth about the Kennedy assassination is like quoting David Irving to discover the truth about the Holocaust.

Heil be seeing you.

Heil be seeing you.

Please make it AFTER you have expended a little time and effort in actual research.

At last accounting, Dr. Boswell as well as Dr. Finke were still living. And although getting up in age, anything from them would be far better than NOTHING.

Dr. Perry, at last accounting was still quite lucid and capable of answering questions.

As was Robert Frazier, even though getting on up into the years.

Along with an entire "host" of those who advised on the HSCA as well as having become otherwise involved and who actually have the CREDENTIALS necessary to speak authoritatively on the subject matter in addition to having actually examined the evidence.

Lastly, I for one was most assuredly not stupid enough to accept the WC's "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"/aka Z313 is the last shot and you should believe us!

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

Just as I was not so lacking in reading comprehension ability that I allowed them to pass off altered evidence on me.

(CE884)

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So, considering their record, exactly why was it that no one else has bothered to look down the street some 30-feet, in front of James Altgens.

That "first run shine" may "cognitively impair" us for some period, as well as destroy a few brain cells, but it does not make us so STUPID that we can not read and understand AFTER the hangover is gone.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Anyone who happens to be "paddling" in the correct direction, could often utilize a little assistance.

Sometimes they are headed in the correct direction, just that they have their paddles reversed.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/robertsn.txt

I've finally gotten time to examine Randy Robertson's statement given

before Rep. Conyer's subcommittee of the U.S. Congress on November 17,

1993.

I've scanned and OCRed his prepared statement. It follows this

commentary. I'm also including one of the reviews that caused the

journal RADIOLOGY to reject Robertson's manuscript.

To summarize very briefly, Robertson believes that there is an entrance

wound on the back of Kennedy's head, in the position that Humes et al.

identified during the autopsy.

He also believes there is a higher wound in the rear of the head. He

located this wound in the cowlick area (like a wound the HSCA noticed)

but unlike the HSCA he believes this wound to be an *exit* wound

rather than an entrance wound.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Thomas H. Purvis

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QUOTE(Lee Forman @ Feb 21 2008, 07:32 PM)

QUOTE(Thomas H. Purvis @ Feb 21 2008, 05:30 PM)

Trying an upload!

Hey Tom.

I find this to be a highly plausible and logical scenario - it also meshes well with the point I was trying to make elsewhere, as to a botched 'graze' shot. However, a few questions:

- You are calling this shot #2 - so preceeding shot to the head would have been the side entry? Just behind the ear?

- This is 'shot #2' however, the second 'headshot' - not necessarily the 'second' shot fired?

- Have you considered the angle/trajectory and managed to theorize as to the shooter's location based upon this 'graze' shot?

- Would the impact of this graze shot have flipped open the scalp forward, and created a fracture line at the top of the scalp itself?

- Would the resulting split round have been responsible for creating the dent in the chrome around the windshield? The blood on the windshield, Connally's wounds, etc.?

- When you mention a third shot - it sounds as if you are speaking to the shot in the back, as opposed to another head shot?

- How do you account for the blood/brain matter which struck Hargis & Chaney - is that the third shot?

- How do you account for the Parkland Doctor's witnessing the cavity at the rear of the head - is this associated with the first headshot?

- If Oswald allegedly fired three rounds, how does this fit into the grand scheme of things, given the multiple other accounts of bullets striking other locations, unless there was more than one shooter present? eg - sot that 'bucked up' the grass at the concrete skirt, shot that struck Elm, shot that struck the curb at Main st and wounded Tague - at a minimum?

- How are you accounting for the throat wound?

- What about the movement of the head - slightly forward from what we have available in the extant z-film footage - what accounts for the rearward jerk if not another shot following this one from the front?

I think that last one is the most significant for me anyway - since I know you doubt the existence of a shooter at the front.

Carry on - very interested...

- lee

One Step/shot back:

Shot#1

Fired in the vicinity of Z204/206.

Attached image(s)

Reduced: 74% of original size [ 864 x 672 ] - Click to view full image

--------------------

Tom,

Regarding this shot to the upper right section of the back: How do you explain the related exit wound, given the picture demonstrated entry location? I can agree with the approximate entry as presented by you.

Although this topic was begun in reference to the two shots which impacted the head, it never hurts to "backtrack" in order to place all of the wounds into their proper perspective.

Shot#1/aka CE399.

[Tony Austin]

Tom,

I have enjoyed reading your thread. There is one thing I am not clear about, however, which shot went through the chest of John Connally?

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

I have enjoyed reading your thread. There is one thing I am not clear about, however, which shot went through the chest of John Connally?

Someone should have warned you that it is against the rules of the forum to "feed the animal!"

At risk of jumping ahead!

It was the "Magic Bullet"!

AKA/the third shot fired/

AKA that bullet which struck down in front of James Altgens Position some 30-feet past the Z313 impact.

AKA that bullet which penetrated the coat of JFK on an obtuse angle, exited to strike JFK in the lower edge of the hairline, completed fracture and fragmentation of the skull in the occipital region (the big "blowout), tore the uppermost tip of the occipital lobe, then passed through the mid-brain to exit in the frontal lobe.

Thereafter continuing on it's downward angle striking JBC in the right shoulder on a downward angle (with JBC laying at a horizontal angle across the open area of the jump seats), to pass through his chest, exit the chest, and thereafter enter the left leg due to the position in which the legs were curled up in a somewhat "fetal" position.

The Bullet which created pathological damage to two occupants of the car and then disappeared.

The one and only true "Magic Bullet".

P.S. You did not ask for it, but the Connally wrist wound was created by the "irregular fragment of limited velocity" which "escaped" from the fragmented bullet at the Z313 headshot impact.

"There is no Magic".

But there has been a whole bunch of sleight-of-hand!

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Tom,

I have enjoyed reading your thread. There is one thing I am not clear about, however, which shot went through the chest of John Connally?

Someone should have warned you that it is against the rules of the forum to "feed the animal!"

At risk of jumping ahead!

It was the "Magic Bullet"!

AKA/the third shot fired/

AKA that bullet which struck down in front of James Altgens Position some 30-feet past the Z313 impact.

AKA that bullet which penetrated the coat of JFK on an obtuse angle, exited to strike JFK in the lower edge of the hairline, completed fracture and fragmentation of the skull in the occipital region (the big "blowout), tore the uppermost tip of the occipital lobe, then passed through the mid-brain to exit in the frontal lobe.

Thereafter continuing on it's downward angle striking JBC in the right shoulder on a downward angle (with JBC laying at a horizontal angle across the open area of the jump seats), to pass through his chest, exit the chest, and thereafter enter the left leg due to the position in which the legs were curled up in a somewhat "fetal" position.

The Bullet which created pathological damage to two occupants of the car and then disappeared.

The one and only true "Magic Bullet".

P.S. You did not ask for it, but the Connally wrist wound was created by the "irregular fragment of limited velocity" which "escaped" from the fragmented bullet at the Z313 headshot impact.

"There is no Magic".

But there has been a whole bunch of sleight-of-hand!

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear"

Perhaps a "resurrection" of this topic would be appropriate?

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/conn_j.htm

Governor CONNALLY. We had--we had gone, I guess, 150 feet, maybe 200 feet, I don't recall how far it was, heading down to get on the freeway, the Stemmons Freeway, to go out to the hall where we were going to have lunch and, as I say, the crowds had begun to thin, and we could--I was anticipating that we were going to be at the hall in approximately 5 minutes from the time we turned on Elm Street.

We had just made the turn, well, when I heard what I thought was a shot. I heard this noise which I immediately took to be a rifle shot. I instinctively turned to my right because the sound appeared to come from over my right

shoulder, so I turned to look back over my right shoulder, and I saw nothing unusual except just people in the crowd, but I did not catch the President in the corner of my eye, and I was interested, because once I heard the shot in my own mind I identified it as a rifle shot, and I immediately--the only thought that crossed my mind was that this is an assassination attempt.

So I looked, failing to see him, I was turning to look back over my left shoulder into the back seat, but I never got that far in my turn. I got about in the position I am in now facing you, looking a little bit to the left of center, and then I felt like someone had hit me in the back.

So I merely doubled up, and then turned to my right again and began to--I just sat there, and Mrs. Connally pulled me over to her lap. She was sitting, of course, on the jump seat, so I reclined with my head in her lap, conscious all the time, and with my eyes open; and then, of course, the third shot sounded, and I heard the shot very clearly. I heard it hit him. I heard the shot hit something, and I assumed again--it never entered my mind that it ever hit anybody but the President. I heard it hit. It was a very loud noise, just that audible, very clear.

Immediately I could see on my clothes, my clothing, I could see on the interior of the car which, as I recall, was a pale blue, brain tissue, which I immediately recognized, and I recall very well, on my trousers there was one chunk of brain tissue as big as almost my thumb, thumbnail, and again I did not see the President at any time either after the first, second, or third shots, but I assumed always that it was he who was hit and no one else.

Governor CONNALLY. Mrs. Connally. When she pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.

After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill, get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the motorcycle police who were leading us.

At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital.

Mr. SPECTER. Governor Connally, on your recitation of the events on the day of the assassination, you had come to the point where the shooting was concluded and the automobile had started to accelerate toward the hospital. What recollection do you have, if any, of the events on the way to the hospital from the assassination scene?

Governor CONNALLY. None really. I think at that point I had lost consciousness because I don't have any recollection, Mr. Specter, of anything that occurred on the way to the hospital. It was a very short period of time, but I don't remember it.

Mr. SPECTER. Do you have any recollection of your arrival at the hospital itself, at the Parkland Hospital?

Governor CONNALLY. Yes. I think when the car stopped the driver was obviously driving at a very rapid rate of speed, and apparently, as he threw on the brakes of the car, it brought me back to consciousness.

I got--I don't really know how far I got. They tell me I got almost upright, and then just collapsed again, and someone then picked me up and put me on a stretcher. I again was very conscious because this was the first time that I had any real sensation of pain, and at this point the pain in the chest was excruciating, and I kept repeating just over and over, "My God, it hurts, it hurts," and it was hurting, it was excruciating at that point.

I was conscious then off and on during the time I was in the emergency room.

(emphasis added)

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/m_j_russ/hscacon.htm

Mr. CONNALLY. Mr. Cornwell, we had just turned to Elm. We had gone, I suspect, oh, 150, 200 feet when I heard what I thought was a rifle shot and I thought it came from--I was seated right, as you know, the jump seat right in front of the President, and they have a fairly straight back on them so I was sitting up fairly erect. I thought the shot came from back over my right shoulder, so I turned to see if I could catch a sight of the President out of the corner of my eye because I immediately had, frankly, had fear of an assassination because I thought it was a rifle shot.

I didn't think it was a blowout or explosion of any kind. I didn't see the President out of the corner of my eye, so I was in the process of, at least I was turning to look over my left shoulder into the back seat to see if I could see him. I never looked, I never made the full turn. About the time I turned back where I was facing more or less straight ahead, the way the car was moving, I was hit.

I was in her lap facing forward when another shot was fired. I only heard two shots. I did not hear the shot that hit me. I wasn't conscious of it. I am sure I heard it, but I was not conscious of it at all. I heard another shot. I heard it hit. It hit with a very pronounced impact, just [slap of hands] almost like that. Almost that loud a sound; it made a very, very strong sound.

Immediately, I could see blood and brain tissue all over the interior of the car and all over our clothes. We were both covered with brain tissue, and there were pieces of brain tissue as big as your little finger. It was something that was unmistakable. There was no question in my mind about what it was.

When I was hit, or shortly before I was hit--no, I guess it was after I was hit--I said first, just almost in despair, I said, "no, no, no, just thinking how tragic it was that we had gone through this 24 hours, it had all been so wonderful and so beautifully executed. The President had been so marvelously received and then here, at the last moment this great tragedy. I just said, "no, no, no, no".

Then I said right after I was hit, I said, "My God, they are going to kill us all." ....

The shots came, in my judgment, the two shots I heard came from the same direction, back over my right shoulder, came from behind us. Very clear to me where they came from. I don't think any shots came from any other direction. I was conscious until we hit the Stemmons Freeway and then I faded into unconsciousness. I revived when the car came to a stop at what was Parkland Hospital. Apparently, the braking of the car--we must have been traveling at an enormous rate of speed--the braking of the car brought me back to consciousness and you know it is strange what thoughts run through your mind.

I obviously didn't know what it was. At that point, I felt the first pain, really, that I had experienced and when I was on the stretcher, I was laid out. Then, there was excruciating pain in my chest.

At the time I was hit, strangely enough, I felt no sharp pain. It was as if someone had come up behind me with a doubled up fist and just hit me in the back right between the shoulder blades. It was that kind of a sensation.

(emphasis added)

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http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z276.jpg

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"I turned to my left to look in the back seat----the President had slumped."

"Almost simultaneously, as I turned, I was hit and I knew I had been hit badly. I knew the President had been hit and I said. "My God, they are going to kill us all."

"Then there was a third shot and the President was hit again and we thought then very seriously."

"I had still retained consciousness but the President had slumped in Mrs. Kennedy's lap and when he was hit the second time she said,"

"After the third shot, the next thing that occurred---I was conscious, the Secret Service man, of course, the chauffer had pulled out of the line, they said, "Get out of here", on the radios they said "Get us to a hospital immediatelly" and we pulled out, of course, immediately, as fast as we could and got to the hospital."

(emphasis added)

(Connally Interview with Martin Agronsky, November 27, 1963) *at Parkland Hospital

-------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hill_c.htm

Mr. SPECTER. What is your best estimate of the distance from the time of the shooting to Parkland Hospital?

Mr. HILL. In time or--

Mr. SPECTER. Time and distance.

Mr. HILL. Distance, I have no idea.

Mr. SPECTER. How about time?

Mr. HILL. I would say roughly 4 minutes.

Representative BOGGS. Was Governor Connally conscious?

Mr. HILL. Yes, sir; he was.

Mr. SPECTER. What, if anything, did you observe as to Governor Connally's condition on arrival at Parkland?

Mr. HILL. He was conscious. There was a large amount of blood in the lower abdominal area. He was helped from the automobile to the stretcher, and I do not recall him saying anything, but I know that he was conscious.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/kellerma.htm

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fine. As we arrived at the hospital I immediately got out of the car. Our followup car is in back of us, as you will recall. I yelled to the agents, "Get in"--"Go get us two stretchers on wheels."

In the meantime in a matter of seconds--I don't know how they got out so fast--I turned right around to the back door and opened it. By this time Mrs. Connally had raised up, and the Governor is lying in her lap, face up. His eyes are open and he is looking at me, and I am fairly sure he is alive. By this time I noticed the two stretchers coming out of the emergency room, and I said to the Governor, I said, "Governor, don't worry; everything is going to be all right." And he nodded his head, which I was fairly convinced that that man was alive.

By this time the stretcher is there. I get inside on one side of him, and Special Agent Hill on the other. Somebody is holding his feet, and we remove the Governor and put him on the stretcher and they take him in.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/sa-kelle.htm

When we got to the hospital I called to the agents to get two stretchers. The special agents of the follow-up car with the police ran into the hospital, obtained two stretchers on wheels. We placed the Governor on the first one at which time I noticed he was conscious and I spoke to him saying, "Governor, everything is going to be all right." His eyes were wide open and he nodded his head in agreement.

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http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearc...N=9780446607438

how Texas Gov. John Connally was "squealing like a stuck pig,"

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Most certainly worth a full review and full understanding:

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/full/2402050972v1

Certain portions more than others:

The directions of the gunshot wound paths were accurately predicted in nine (69%) victims (Fig 1). In the four cases in which prediction was not correct, the subjects had multiple gunshot wounds with intersecting and comingling paths. In two cases, the subjects had multiple gunshot wounds to the head with intersecting paths that resulted in innumerable calvarial and skull base fractures; therefore, the standard features of bone beveling, the pattern of metal deposition, or the bone fragment displacement used to determine gunshot track directionality could not be applied.

Also, one may find of interest, exactly what a SINGLE gunshot wound to the rear of the head can be expected to cause.

http://radiology.rsnajnls.org/cgi/content/...402050972v1/F2C

Nope! None of the "skull cap"/top of the skull missing here!

[Bill Miller]

Then why not make an attempt to "argue" the points of forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact?

I find the discussion of which way the bullet entered the President's head by way of the autopsy to be a waste of time because there is so much contradictory evidence that nothing can be considered factual. The head was seen differently at Bethesda as described in Dallas, thus the evidence has been compromised as far the the body goes. About a third of the President's brain was missing in Dallas - O'Conner finds the head cavity void of a brain when Paul unzipped the body bag containing the president's body. Jackie arrives with the alleged casket containing JFK's body, which Custer observed as he is carrying the Xrays of JFK that he has already taken. Then we are given a brain weight that shows no sign of a loss of brain tissue. Something is not right and no matter whether one believes in a conspiracy or not in JFK's assassination, there can be no denying that because of a poor chain of evidence being carried out has resulted in some rather doubtful and shoddy evidence.

So we go back to a point when the body had yet been compromised - The assassination films. The assassination films show only one impact to the President's head according to blood spatter science. It was stated to me by a blood spatter expert that a second impact to the President's head would have resulted in a second halo effect and that an already weakened skull would have been obliterated, which is not what is seen in the Zapruder film. So it seems to me that the best evidence is the evidence examined before the mysterious varying descriptions of JFK's wounds took place. With that being said, then the evidence has been addressed IMO.

[David G. Healy]

Then why not make an attempt to "argue" the points of forensic; ballistic; pathological; and physical fact?

I find the discussion of which way the bullet entered the President's head by way of the autopsy to be a waste of time because there is so much contradictory evidence that nothing can be considered factual. The head was seen differently at Bethesda as described in Dallas, thus the evidence has been compromised as far the the body goes. About a third of the President's brain was missing in Dallas - O'Conner finds the head cavity void of a brain when Paul unzipped the body bag containing the president's body. Jackie arrives with the alleged casket containing JFK's body, which Custer observed as he is carrying the Xrays of JFK that he has already taken. Then we are given a brain weight that shows no sign of a loss of brain tissue. Something is not right and no matter whether one believes in a conspiracy or not in JFK's assassination, there can be no denying that because of a poor chain of evidence being carried out has resulted in some rather doubtful and shoddy evidence.

So we go back to a point when the body had yet been compromised - The assassination films. The assassination films show only one impact to the President's head according to blood spatter science. It was stated to me by a blood spatter expert that a second impact to the President's head would have resulted in a second halo effect and that an already weakened skull would have been obliterated, which is not what is seen in the Zapruder film. So it seems to me that the best evidence is the evidence examined before the mysterious varying descriptions of JFK's wounds took place. With that being said, then the evidence has been addressed IMO.

I've stated elsewhere how can a bloodspatter analyst (Sherry from LANCER) determine blood spatter from a 2 dimensional film of a 3 dimensional crime scene..... and the same blood spatter analyst never visited the crime 'street' scene, did not have access to the limo immediately after the crime. we're simply left with another "opinion"...

Waste of time? If you can scientifically verify the NARA held Zapruder film as, in fact, the Zapruder in-camera original, you might get some legs, till then, noise!

IF the Zapruder film is altered, one halo, two or more makes no difference, mere opinion regarding blood spatter, MOOT comes to mind.

Best Evidence? Speaking of which, David Lifton is certainly stirring the pot - won't you agree?

Edited March 14, 2008 by David G. Healy