Lee Oswald’s Departure from the TSBD

[Duke Lane]

... The whole Tippit affair is underinvestigated. LHO's activities during the time period are

really unknown.

Amen to that, Jack.

It is well to note that David Belin called the Tippit murder "the Rosetta Stone of the assassination." It is also well to note that the actual Rosetta Stone was not "proof" of anything, but rather "the key that unlocked the puzzle" (to deciphering ancient texts). Perhaps Belin was talking out of both sides of his mouth?

PS - Jack, PM me your email address; Antti, you too. Thanks.

[Duke Lane]

... Which although this measurement was obtained using the google measuring stick, doesnt seem right (although it looks right if their stick is accurate) and thats why I asked if there is a record of the exact distance - surely someone must have measured it using a measuring wheel?

I sincerely doubt it, given the few number of people who've even walked the route without one. 8/10 of a mile is about right; the WC estimated it (also without a measuring wheel!) at 9/10 of a mile. You'll have to do the metric conversion yourself, along with the conversion of the "normal" walking speed of 4.3 feet per second.

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi,

I find it unbelievable that no one seems to have measured the distance - I will have to pack a measuring wheel next time I go to the states  - Seriously though, it is astonishing that it has not been accurately measured or more than likely it has; but the information is difficult to find.

The problem is that the times and distances Google gives are more than likely inaccurate in my opinion. I say this because from experience in the construction industry, when we used to measure our works (using a measuring wheel), there would always be a significant difference (+20% sometimes) in measuring from the centre of a road than closer to the footpath as Google seem to be doing (for obvious reasons). In fact Google maps even states “Walking directions are in beta. Use caution – This route may be missing sidewalks or pedestrian paths.” So without an actual measured distance I personally would allocate a significant margin for error on the distances we have.

The other thing that I noticed was contradicting information on the “average” walking distance. A study (and book) published by Motor Control states on page 346 (link at bottom) that “...each was tested at his preferred and at a fast walking speed. Men over 67 years of age showed significantly (p < 0.01) slower walking speeds (118 – 123 cm/s) than the young adults (150 cm/s or 4.92 ft)/s. Stride length was also significantly shorter, especially during fast walking speed.”

Now; one could presume that Oswald could even walk faster than that if he had the notion to do so.

Thanks - Steve

Link to Motor Control:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HLpILbGSz...&ct=result)

... Which although this measurement was obtained using the google measuring stick, doesnt seem right (although it looks right if their stick is accurate) and thats why I asked if there is a record of the exact distance - surely someone must have measured it using a measuring wheel?

I sincerely doubt it, given the few number of people who've even walked the route without one. 8/10 of a mile is about right; the WC estimated it (also without a measuring wheel!) at 9/10 of a mile. You'll have to do the metric conversion yourself, along with the conversion of the "normal" walking speed of 4.3 feet per second.

[Neville Gully]

Both of these reinactments have the time taken to walk at between 11 and 12 minutes......

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc

and seem reasonable to me.

I would like to add more to my previous post. I did not use Google initially but used the statemnt from the Car 10 article that stated that the driving distance from Top Ten Records to 1026 North Beckley was about 3 minutes (~20 mph average speed). I then plotted this on the map to work out times between the relevent map locations. When I checked with the Google estimations they were not significantly different that the times I calculated. In summary.....Tippit could have been at

A - the Gloco station at 12.52 (5 witnesses who knew him saw him there)

B - 10th and Lancaster at 12.54 (as he called in on the radio)

C - 1026 North Beckley at 12.59 beeping the horn with LHO inside

D - on West 10th stopping Andrews and acting strangely at 1.04 (see Car 10 article)

E - at Top Ten Records at 1.07 trying to make a call (remember the witnesses said it was not long after this that the shooting occured)

F - at 10th and Patton in time to be shot by 1.12 (Markham's bus was for this time and to me is the most convincing argument that the shooting took place no later than this, maybe a minute earlier if LHO is the shooter who walked to this location)

My theory requires LHO and Whalley to drive by Tippit at Gloco at 12.52 (is this realistic?) and LHO to be in the boardinghouse by 12.58.

Duke would you like to comment on my posts as I respect your opinion on this one? Please note that as I am not familiar with Dallas did East 10th join North Beckley in 1963 as it doesn't appear to now on Google? Also please note that on my map in the previous post I could not get Google to place Tippit's route onto Sunset as he was belived to have travelled but I think the route I indicated would have not taken any more time.

regards

Neville

[Antti Hynonen]

Neville Gully Posted Today, 12:07 PM

Both of these reinactments have the time taken to walk at between 11 and 12 minutes......

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=uf8D6NuLIhw

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc

and seem reasonable to me.

I would like to add more to my previous post. I did not use Google initially but used the statemnt from the Car 10 article that stated that the driving distance from Top Ten Records to 1026 North Beckley was about 3 minutes (~20 mph average speed). I then plotted this on the map to work out times between the relevent map locations. When I checked with the Google estimations they were not significantly different that the times I calculated. In summary.....Tippit could have been at

A - the Gloco station at 12.52 (5 witnesses who knew him saw him there)

B - 10th and Lancaster at 12.54 (as he called in on the radio)

C - 1026 North Beckley at 12.59 beeping the horn with LHO inside

D - on West 10th stopping Andrews and acting strangely at 1.04 (see Car 10 article)

E - at Top Ten Records at 1.07 trying to make a call (remember the witnesses said it was not long after this that the shooting occured)

F - at 10th and Patton in time to be shot by 1.12 (Markham's bus was for this time and to me is the most convincing argument that the shooting took place no later than this, maybe a minute earlier if LHO is the shooter who walked to this location)

My theory requires LHO and Whalley to drive by Tippit at Gloco at 12.52 (is this realistic?) and LHO to be in the boardinghouse by 12.58.

Duke would you like to comment on my posts as I respect your opinion on this one? Please note that as I am not familiar with Dallas did East 10th join North Beckley in 1963 as it doesn't appear to now on Google? Also please note that on my map in the previous post I could not get Google to place Tippit's route onto Sunset as he was belived to have travelled but I think the route I indicated would have not taken any more time.

regards

Neville

Neville,

I'll let Duke do the rest of the commenting on this and to your other posts. I just wanted to say that I do like your way of thinking about the timing and wanted to point out that if Oswald did enter 1026 N Beckley at about 1-2 minutes shy of 1 p.m. he must have been dropped off at Neely and Beckley at about 12:54 latest (Whaley). Or let me put it this way, whatever time one wants to have Ozzie enter the Beckley address, one needs to allow some 5 minutes or so for him to walk the 5 blocks, if one agrees that Whaley´s statement is accurate regarding the location of end of the Oswald taxi ride.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Antti Hynonen]

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/v2n1/chrono2.pdf

This large document is a collection of various pieces of information by numerous researchers.

This document contains a few results of the distance from the Zang/N.Beckely corner to the corner of 10th and Patton. The distance discussed is in minutes and the results range between 12-14.5 minutes.

8/10 of a mile jives really nicely with my own experience, in that 8/10 of a US mile is 1283 meters, and I walk 1000 meters in some 10 minutes at a leasurely pace. 1283 meters would be close to 13 minutes, which is close to the average of the results of the researchers results from above. Also it seems to be close to Duke Lane's & Jack White's estimated distance/time.

12-13 minutes and 8/10 of a mile is good enough for me.

Edited October 31, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Antti Hynonen]

Duke Lane Posted Yesterday, 10:19 PM

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 29 2008, 09:50 AM)

I do agree that if we consider Earlene's testimony reliable (I think most of it is), she did in fact hear a cop car honk in front of her house about that time, and the reasons why that police was there at that time make an excellent question/discussion. ... He [Tippit] seemed to have that extra uniform in his car, and that may have been (worn by) the second officer at that time. I agree that she was confused about the number on the car. As far as I know he was one of the closest, if not the closest to this location at that time, yes?

I agree with you that most of what Earlene said is probably reliable, at least insofar as her own actions. I differ with some over whether she made a positive ID of Oswald in her distraction with the TV coupled with her poor vision (versus her merely inferring that it was Oswald who came in because he did what Oswald would have been expected to do, i.e., just walk in and then go to his room).

I don't agree, however, that she was "confused" about the number on the car. She testified that she looked at the number only to see if it was "170," the number on the car of the officer(s) she knew. Once she saw that it wasn't "170," she ignored it, dismissed it, made no attempt to see what it was when all she knew is what it wasn't.

Any "confusion" was after the fact, most likely as a result of her being pressured to remember what the number on the car was, a la: "Well, it wasn't 170 (yes, ma'am, we know that, 170 had been decommissioned), but I don't know what it was. (Do you think it could have been 107?) It might've been. It might've been 207. I only know it wasn't 170. (So it could have been 106?) It might've been. It might've been 10. But it wasn't 107. (Ma'am, 10 was Officer Tippit's car and he wasn't near here.) Okay, so it wasn't 10 either. I don't know what it was. (Okay, ma'am, we'll put you down as 'confused' and then go ahead and investigate where 207 was.)"

I haven't run across the original source document that prompted any investigation into the whereabouts of any vehicle, other than the FBI document asking for an investigation into 207. Where did they get that number from? No doubt Earlene, but when, and to whom did she report it? The trouble with reports is that they're subjectively written and condensed (i.e., "these are what I think are the high points of what you told me, do you agree you said them all?") as opposed to any near-verbatim account of what was said (i.e., not "this is what you said at first, but here you changed your mind, and then later you said something that contradicted that, and when I asked you about it, you said it was maybe this, is that an accurate account of exactly what was said during the course of the last three hours?").

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 30 2008, 03:14 AM)

Wow. I don't think any of my scenarios are any better or worse. Definitely don't have another one.

It's not necessary to have one - I remember Jean Davison among others always pestering for an "alternative scenario" as if you cannot have or introduce reasonable doubt if you don't have a better explanation - but the important thing is that whatever one proposes should be thought through from beginning to end to see if it makes sense. I am, after having been through the entire Bledsoe-on-the-bus discussion, convinced that Mary actually was on the bus; prior to it, I hadn't been.

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 30 2008, 03:14 AM)

I'll briefly explain my train of thought. First of all, as stated earlier, I do find the bulk of Earlene's testimony credible ... [and] therefore as she claims to have seen a police car honking it's horn, in front of 1026 N Beckley, at the time she stated, I believe one did do just that.

My second phase is to consider what possible police vehicle would be the most likely one to have been in the area. Not being an expert as to the whereabouts of police vehicles in Dallas on that day at about 1 p.m. in the area in question, except that I do recall Tippit's car being in the area, I suggested that perhaps this was the one. ... Third, I do not believe that the records are entirely precise and accurate as far as they pertain to the whereabouts of police vehicles on that day and time in Dallas Tx. Why? Because I don't think each vehicle on the move bothered to call in it's location all the time. What are the other possibilities in your opinion?

This is a "how to fish" story:

Your premise seems to be that (1) a police car went by 1026 with two officers in it and honked its horn in front of the home in Oak Cliff; (2) Tippit's car was in Oak Cliff and he had a jacket in the car that could reasonably be mistaken as a second officer; (3) you don't know if there were other cars in Oak Cliff, and even if you don't think there were - or maybe there might've been since sometimes cops don't always report where they are (or really are!) - then (4) it "makes sense" that Tippit's car was the car in front of Oswald's house. Thence, from what "makes sense," we hypothesize to determine if that possibility can be supported.

Virtually any possibility can be supported, including that Oswald was the lone gunman in the downtown shooting, made the trip home and to the Tippit scene exactly as described, got to the second murder scene in the necessary timeframe, killed Tippit, fled and, half an hour later, ducked into a theater where he was caught. There is evidence to support all of that. The conclusion can be most easily be reached by not taking into account any of the contradictory evidence that suggests or proves otherwise.

The first step, then, is to determine what police patrols in Oak Cliff, and then which officers were assigned duties in each of those districts that morning in the Oak Cliff area. "Oak Cliff" should also be defined as closely as possible (there is no actual hard definition that everyone will agree upon). Then, beginning prior to the downtown shooting, where were those officers assigned or where did they report being (I think it's fair to say that most if not all of them did not lie just for the sake of lying)? Ditto for the timeframe between the downtown shooting and the Oak Cliff shooting.

Of that x-number of on-duty patrols, how many were still in Oak Cliff at about 1:00, and where were they? Assuming their reporting to Elm & Houston, on orders or otherwise, would their most direct route have taken them by 1026? How were most of those officers told to report to the scene: if they were all told to go "code 3," should it be considered that any instead went "code 1" as the car in front of 1026 certainly seemed to be doing? Answers to these questions will help lead to a "suspect pool" of cops who were assigned to Oak Cliff and who might've passed 1026.

You can't account for lies. Let's take the case of Patrolman R.W. Walker, who was assigned to Districts 85 and 86 in south central Oak Cliff. He reported being "clear" at 12:46, presumably in his patrol area. He is next heard from after the "citizen call" about Tippit being shot, indicating shortly before 1:19 that he was "en route" to the Tippit scene. He is then contacted just after the 1:19 time check and told about a suspect was seen running on Jefferson, which he acknowledges, and before the 1:22 time check he calls in to say that he hasn't seen anyone on Jefferson yet.

According to his later report (summarized in CE2645 at 25H913), he had been "assigned" to "remain in district to answer calls in regard to suspect." At the very least, we gather from this that he did not go downtown, and no version of the DPD radio transcripts reflect his being ordered there. They likewise do not order him to remain in his district: he reports being clear and there are no transmissions between him and dispatch until after Tippit's shooting has been reported.

He apparently got to the murder scene pretty quickly since he was reporting from there - presumably, unless he was lying - within two minutes of calling in saying he was "en route." We don't know where he was en route from because he doesn't say, any more than he said where he was "clear" at, which can only be presumed to have been in his district. Technically speaking, his report of having been "assigned ... to answer calls in regard to suspect" cannot be entirely true since no such order was transmitted (it is true, however, inasmuch as he was not ordered away from his district and that everyone should be on the lookout for "a suspect" is a matter of SOP).

So, despite the fact that he wasn't ordered (like Tippit was) to be "at large for any emergency that comes in," that's exactly what he was. He could've been anywhere in Oak Cliff. He might've had a jacket in his car, or maybe a ride-along trainee that day (nowhere does it say one way or another. Nick McDonald, another Oak Cliff patrol officer did have a trainee with him all day until he left the Tippit scene to respond to the theater call ... or maybe it was the library call? Anyway, McDonald left his trainee at 10&P; prior to that, he was ordered to and reported being "out" at Elm & Houston).

Since all patrols other than he and Tippit and Mentzel and Nelson had been ordered out of Oak Cliff to the downtown area, he might've taken it upon himself to cruise the entire area at large, and been the car that "toot-tooted" in front of 1026. We don't know because he was never specifically asked, or at least did not specifically respond (his being "assigned to remain in district" did not answer the question of his possibly going by 1026 ... but it may be that I'm thinking of another report).

So there's another "suspect" besides Tippit. You can count Nelson out because he went downtown. Mentzel was eating lunch, or at least said he was (he could've been lying, but I have no way of knowing since nobody verified this with witnesses). So now we've got one, maybe two others. Or maybe three. Nelson may have been lying, too, since his radio broadcasts having him on a wild goose chase into Oak Cliff while his report says that he was "dispatched to Texas School Book Depository where stationed in front of building remainder of afternoon," neither of which assertions are true according to the record.

Were there others? I know the answer to that, but you've got to go fishing now.

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 30 2008, 03:14 AM)

[Earlene] may have been wrong about a few things, but I don't think she was hallucinating about Oswald coming in - going out to the bus stop - nor about the cop car stopping in front. Perhaps it's just the details that she can't quite recall accurately. Given the above, there is room and need to speculate in order to come up with a reasonable answer to the events one can determine to have occurred with reasonable certainty.

Absolutely. I never said that she was hallucinating, only that she was distracted. When someone walked in the door and went directly to Oswald's room, my assertion is that she was so wrapped up in getting the TV to work that she merely glanced, saw someone who at least resembled Oswald (and maybe it was Oswald), who did something totally expected of Oswald to do (went into his room without saying a word), and gave it no more further thought than she did to the number on the police car when it wasn't what she anticipated.

QUOTE(Antti Hynonen @ Oct 30 2008, 05:49 AM)

Duke, in your scenario with Tippit's alleged sequence of stops, have you considered the possibility of switching A and B around, i.e. the Gloco station and Top Ten around. That is, what if Tippit had gone to top ten first then been at the Gloco station for a while before he sped off and perhaps went by 1026 N. Beckley and then to his final destination at 10th and Patton? Would that work better?

Good question; I'll try to remember to answer it again later on. Gotta do some other stuff now.

Duke thanks for your reply.

Duke Lane: So there's another "suspect" besides Tippit.

Duke, I'd like to throw out another question (anyone else feel free to reply too!):

Let's assume for a minute that Oswald did shoot Tippit sometime after 1 p.m. on Friday Nov 22nd 1963, but let's not discuss and debate this part... yet.

How likely is it after virtually all the Dallas area police cars have been dispatched down-town, first one roaming police vehicle in Oak cliff stops at 1026 N Beckley (Oswald's address, and therefore crosses paths with Oswald at 1 p.m.), and that then, yet another different police car crosses Oswald's path again, this time at 10th and Patton, some 10 to 15 minutes later?

I know, especially after reading your reply, (thanks for all that research!) that there are other possibilities, but how likely is it.........?

Edited October 31, 2008 by Antti Hynonen

[Jack White]

Hi,

I find it unbelievable that no one seems to have measured the distance - I will have to pack a measuring wheel next time I go to the states  - Seriously though, it is astonishing that it has not been accurately measured or more than likely it has; but the information is difficult to find.

The problem is that the times and distances Google gives are more than likely inaccurate in my opinion. I say this because from experience in the construction industry, when we used to measure our works (using a measuring wheel), there would always be a significant difference (+20% sometimes) in measuring from the centre of a road than closer to the footpath as Google seem to be doing (for obvious reasons). In fact Google maps even states “Walking directions are in beta. Use caution – This route may be missing sidewalks or pedestrian paths.” So without an actual measured distance I personally would allocate a significant margin for error on the distances we have.

The other thing that I noticed was contradicting information on the “average” walking distance. A study (and book) published by Motor Control states on page 346 (link at bottom) that “...each was tested at his preferred and at a fast walking speed. Men over 67 years of age showed significantly (p < 0.01) slower walking speeds (118 – 123 cm/s) than the young adults (150 cm/s or 4.92 ft)/s. Stride length was also significantly shorter, especially during fast walking speed.”

Now; one could presume that Oswald could even walk faster than that if he had the notion to do so.

Thanks - Steve

Link to Motor Control:

http://books.google.com/books?id=HLpILbGSz...&ct=result)

... Which although this measurement was obtained using the google measuring stick, doesnt seem right (although it looks right if their stick is accurate) and thats why I asked if there is a record of the exact distance - surely someone must have measured it using a measuring wheel?

I sincerely doubt it, given the few number of people who've even walked the route without one. 8/10 of a mile is about right; the WC estimated it (also without a measuring wheel!) at 9/10 of a mile. You'll have to do the metric conversion yourself, along with the conversion of the "normal" walking speed of 4.3 feet per second.

Steve...Nobody knows what alleged route that the alleged LHO might have taken. Nobody knows his

alleged destination. All studies seem to assume that his destination was to rendezvous with Tippit

at Tenth and Patton walking at top speed. There is no reason to assume that. What if he left 1026

on just a leisurely random stroll instead of racing at top speed? If he was speed-walking, why?

Where was he going in such a hurry? There are numerous routes between 1026 and the Tippit

site; who decides which route he took, and why? Any study of the relation between 1026 and

the Tippit site must consider various routes and why anyone would walk at top speed uphill thru

a maze of streets. One cannot just study ONLY the most DIRECT route. If he waited a while at the

inbound bus stop, why did he suddenly decide to stroll the opposite direction UPHILL, and to where?

It is not simple to guess these answers.

Jack

[Duke Lane]

... I would like to add more to my previous post. I did not use Google initially but used the statemnt from the Car 10 article that stated that the driving distance from Top Ten Records to 1026 North Beckley was about 3 minutes (~20 mph average speed). I then plotted this on the map to work out times between the relevent map locations. When I checked with the Google estimations they were not significantly different that the times I calculated. In summary.....Tippit could have been at

A - the Gloco station at 12.52 (5 witnesses who knew him saw him there)

B - 10th and Lancaster at 12.54 (as he called in on the radio)

C - 1026 North Beckley at 12.59 beeping the horn with LHO inside

D - on West 10th stopping Andrews and acting strangely at 1.04 (see Car 10 article)

E - at Top Ten Records at 1.07 trying to make a call (remember the witnesses said it was not long after this that the shooting occured)

F - at 10th and Patton in time to be shot by 1.12 (Markham's bus was for this time and to me is the most convincing argument that the shooting took place no later than this, maybe a minute earlier if LHO is the shooter who walked to this location)

My theory requires LHO and Whalley to drive by Tippit at Gloco at 12.52 (is this realistic?) and LHO to be in the boardinghouse by 12.58.

... Please note that as I am not familiar with Dallas did East 10th join North Beckley in 1963 as it doesn't appear to now on Google? Also please note that on my map in the previous post I could not get Google to place Tippit's route onto Sunset as he was belived to have travelled but I think the route I indicated would have not taken any more time.

The things that speak most loudly against Tippit being at the Gloco is the fact that he gave his location at 12:46 at Kiest & Bonnie View, and eight minutes later at Lancaster & 8th; i.e., taking an eight-minute trip in eight minutes without having been at either location. Could you do that? Get a call, tell someone you're at your house when you're really not, and then, without knowing next when you'd be called, be able to tell them where you would have been if you had been at your house and traveled exactly as far as you should have? Remember that he would have had no idea where he'd have to be because he had no idea when he'd get his next call asking where he was.

Great planning in any case, huh?

The other thing that argues against it is that it's highly unlikely that Tippit was complicit in his own death, and even more so that he was rushing to meet his killer. While there is much speculation that JDT was somehow involved in the whole assassination cabal, his getting killed likewise argues against that, especially if you argue that maybe Oswald didn't kill him ... because, if so, then what? Absent Oswald's supposed involvement, there doesn't appear to be any reason for Tippit to have gotten killed, does there? Otherwise, what reason might there have been?

I thoroughly dismiss the Andrews story as his "15 minutes of fame." It is completely out of character for the man who'd only recently answered a shoplifting call, taken the suspect home without charging her, getting a call into Oak Cliff, going there and stopping by the record shop. While he might have seemed a little harried there, how does anyone account for his almost "madman-desperate" supposed search of Andrews' car and his casual approach to his own killer only minutes later? The answer would seem to be that Andrews' incident didn't happen.

Just because people sound sincere and have "no reason to lie" doesn't mean they're not. It's not far afield from someone saying after all these years that, yes, it was he who had picked up Oswald hitchhiking in front of the TSBD because he looked like such a fine young fellow and conversed at length with him into Oak Cliff, and gee whiz, y'know, he didn't know anything about the shooting at all, no-siree. (And there, incidentally, is how Oswald left the Plaza and why Roger Craig was right after all, all rolled up into one nice, neat little package.)

Finally, in the scenario presented, ask why Helen Markham would have been at 10th & Patton at 1:12 when she should have been getting on that 1:12 bus a block away and across a busy intersection. Why does the time she should have been getting on the bus somehow coincide with the time she was walking to the bus? 1:12 is not the time either she or Tom Bowley estimated the time of the shooting, and Tom stated that it was 1:10 when he looked at his watch after he had arrived at 10th & Denver (a block away) and the officer was already lying in the street and a crowd had already gathered; he had driven half-way up the block to the scene and parked his car (with is 10-year-old daughter inside; far enough away where she wouldn't see the potentially-traumatic sight) before checking the time, which he did because he was late picking his wife up.

Helen Markham - who walked to the bus stop every day to catch the same bus - said on November 22 that it was "1:06" when she was at the corner; she later testified that she would bet "it wasn't [more than] 1:06 or 1:07" when the murder occurred. These are the times that the WC adjudged as being "confused and inconsistent." How could we now adjudge it to be 1:12 because Helen Markham was a block from where she was supposed to have been at that time?

Tippit was killed no later than 1:08, and yes, it took eight minutes for Bowley to make his transmission, just as it took Donny Benavides "a few minutes" to get out of his truck, briefly examine the officer, and fumble with the radio, which he did not get through on: the two voices heard on the radio recordings are, at first, Tom Bowley's and later, Ted Callaway's. There is no indication whatsoever that the radio transmission took place coincidental with or immediately following the shooting; if you find otherwise from anyone who was anywhere near there at the time, let me know.

10th Street today does NOT go through to Patton from Beckley; there is a nursing home or other such facility that cuts it off. I recall having checked a Dallas Mapsco for 1962 showing that it did, but I didn't photocopy it and can't prove it now.

PS: Most of us will remember what this post said a post or two later: there is no need to re-post the whole thing except to take up space.

[Duke Lane]

How likely is it after virtually all the Dallas area police cars have been dispatched down-town, first one roaming police vehicle in Oak cliff stops at 1026 N Beckley (Oswald's address, and therefore crosses paths with Oswald at 1 p.m.), and that then, yet another different police car crosses Oswald's path again, this time at 10th and Patton, some 10 to 15 minutes later?

I know, especially after reading your reply, (thanks for all that research!) that there are other possibilities, but how likely is it.........?

Actuarilly speaking, approximately 100% ... because that's the way it apparently happened except for the "10 to 15 minutes later" part and the assumption that Oswald was at both locations, for which there is no solid evidence. Which probably reduces the likelihood to about 0%.

(I recently had a discussion about how unreliable eyewitness testimony can be. During the course of it, I was told that we could not depend upon Earlene Roberts' eyewitness testimony about the cop car or Oswald being at the bus stop north of the house. "All that we do know," I was told, "is that Oswald was at the rooming house shortly after 1:00 and left a few minutes later zipping up a jacket." The difficulty in that, of course, is that it was only the same eyewitness testimony by the same unreliable witness that placed Oswald there in the first place. One bit of eyewitness testimony was to be credited while the next bit was unreliable. Does that make sense?)

There were no "roaming police vehicles" in Oak Cliff, yet there apparently were. What do you make of that?

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi Guys,

Thanks Antti for the comment and links, thanks Jack for rightly pointing out that we don't know for sure if Oswald ever walked to 10th/P and even if he did which route he took, and a big thanks to Neville for supplying the YouTube link to the re-enactment of Oswald walking to 10th/P.

Using the link Neville supplied (below) for time purposes, if one assumes that Oswald did walk to 10th/P, then I believe regardless of the exact distance (which seems to be somewhere between 8/10 and 9/10 of a mile) that it can be done without trying to break any records in just over 11 minutes. If we allow for a quick detour to the bus stop (to fit in with Earlene Robert’s testimony) and back, I can accept the time taken for Oswald to get to 10th/P at between 11 and 12 minutes.

The problem is Mrs. Markham. To me her testimony seems very credible and as probably all of us have experienced at some point, anyone catching a bus, a train or an airplane for example are usually ‘hyper aware’ of the time. I know I certainly am, especially compared with normal day to day circumstances where I am usually pretty poor at keeping track of the time unless I have a meeting.

So although Oswald can get to 10th/P in about 11-12 minutes, if Mrs. Markham’s testimony is correct (and I have no reason to doubt her) then Oswald would have had to leave his lodging at about 12.55 – 12.56 pm to get there in time to shoot Tippit. Which would then either call into question Earlene Roberts testimony or suggest Oswald must have used different means of getting to 10th/P.

The only other option I see, is of course; could Oswald have left the boarding house before Earlene Robert’s estimated time of 1.00pm? Practically in my opinion, 4-5 minutes to the hour is close enough that it can be called approximately 1pm – I do it all the time when my wife asks me the time.

More reading and research required here for me, so expect more questions

Steve

YouTube Link: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc

[Duke Lane]

... Oswald would have had to leave his lodging at about 12.55 – 12.56 pm to get there in time to shoot Tippit. Which would then either call into question Earlene Roberts testimony or suggest Oswald must have used different means of getting to 10th/P.

The only other option I see, is of course; could Oswald have left the boarding house before Earlene Robert's estimated time of 1.00pm? Practically in my opinion, 4-5 minutes to the hour is close enough that it can be called approximately 1pm – I do it all the time when my wife asks me the time. ...

Have you at all looked at the WC reconstruction? They were unable to put LHO into the rooming house by the time you want him to have left.

The devilish thing is that, were it not for two women who knew Oswald, the WC would've had a much better time of getting him to do all the things it wanted him to have done.

Instead of that several-block extended walk to board the bus and ride it for four minutes, they could have posited his walking directly to the cab stand where Whaley's liberal time-keeping records couldn't have disproved them ... if it hadn't been for Mary Bledsoe.

Then, when Whaley let him off at Neeley & Beckley, they'd have shaved off at least 15 minutes getting him to 10&P simply because he wouldn't have had to have walked 6½ minutes in each direction to and from 1026 and spent three or four minutes in his room ... if only Earlene Roberts hadn't been home.

Since I feel like I'm repeating myself, hasn't all of this been covered in this thread and/or elsewhere? I'm 99% certain that the WC timeline has been in the last couple of pages.

Before you can "call into question Earlene Roberts' testimony," you've first got to realize that Oswald didn't appear at the front door out of thin air, and Scotty wasn't beaming him around town.

There are a lot more possibilities than "the only other option" you posited above.

[Jack White]

Hi Guys,

Thanks Antti for the comment and links, thanks Jack for rightly pointing out that we don't know for sure if Oswald ever walked to 10th/P and even if he did which route he took, and a big thanks to Neville for supplying the YouTube link to the re-enactment of Oswald walking to 10th/P.

Using the link Neville supplied (below) for time purposes, if one assumes that Oswald did walk to 10th/P, then I believe regardless of the exact distance (which seems to be somewhere between 8/10 and 9/10 of a mile) that it can be done without trying to break any records in just over 11 minutes. If we allow for a quick detour to the bus stop (to fit in with Earlene Robert’s testimony) and back, I can accept the time taken for Oswald to get to 10th/P at between 11 and 12 minutes.

The problem is Mrs. Markham. To me her testimony seems very credible and as probably all of us have experienced at some point, anyone catching a bus, a train or an airplane for example are usually ‘hyper aware’ of the time. I know I certainly am, especially compared with normal day to day circumstances where I am usually pretty poor at keeping track of the time unless I have a meeting.

So although Oswald can get to 10th/P in about 11-12 minutes, if Mrs. Markham’s testimony is correct (and I have no reason to doubt her) then Oswald would have had to leave his lodging at about 12.55 – 12.56 pm to get there in time to shoot Tippit. Which would then either call into question Earlene Roberts testimony or suggest Oswald must have used different means of getting to 10th/P.

The only other option I see, is of course; could Oswald have left the boarding house before Earlene Robert’s estimated time of 1.00pm? Practically in my opinion, 4-5 minutes to the hour is close enough that it can be called approximately 1pm – I do it all the time when my wife asks me the time.

More reading and research required here for me, so expect more questions

Steve

YouTube Link: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=15fRNaFQczc

Thanks, Steve. Again I remind:

1. We don't know where he was going. Was he just wandering around, or headed somewhere?

2. We don't know what route he took. Did he go directly there, and by what streets?

3. We don't know whether he was strolling or speed walking, or hitched a ride.

4. Given other evidence that he was in the theater at the time of the Tippit shooting, we don't know that he was

ever at Tenth and Patton. Why choose to believe 10th/Patton witnesses over Texas Theater witnesses?

5. Evidence indicates he did not shoot Tippit, so who did?

It is almost fruitless to speculate, except to contradict the official story with contrary research.

Jack

[Neville Gully]

Thanks for your reply Duke,

firstly I was merely attempting to see if Tippet could possibly have been in the locations I specified in some reasonable timeline (especially the Gloco and 1026 and Top Ten locations at some workable timeline). I am not convinced about the Andrews tale either but slipped it into the senario as the timing was possible. I get your point about the ability to predict the time calls however Google references the time from Bonney View and Kienst to Lancaster and 8th at 10 minutes so it's hard to make a case for "exactly 8 minutes" between locations. Tippit might have given the correct locations on both calls, one or none, at those times, who knows? I merely used the Lancaster call at 12.54 as a location/timestamp.

I was aware of the shoplifting call that resulted in no official action but had not heard that he gave the offender a lift home (do you know of an address for this). I have seen that Tippit called "clear" at 12.20 only 3 minutes after calling in to deal with the Bonnie View shoplifter. Would this 3 minutes cover his dealing with the shoplifter and dropping them home? Or would he call "clear" and then drop the shoplifter home? I'm sure you are aware of the contention regarding the radio call into Oak Cliff. In any event we have 20 minutes or so unnacounted for. Then a call at 12.42 calling "all downtown squads". I find it much harder to ignore the 5 witnesses who all claimed to know Tippit and claim to have seen him at Gloco.

As I see it Oswald cannot get to 1026 North Beckley early enough to walk (even briskly) to get to 10th and Patton soon enough to meet Tippit by 1.06-1.10. I am in total agreement with you on that one. If it was Oswald, he either had other transportation to get there quicker or it was someone else who shot Tippit. Or it was not Oswald who entered 1026 North Beckley.

Also it is apparent as we move the Tippit shooting earlier to accomodate Markham (who I think is a credible witness in order to get the accurate time), it doesn't accomodate both 1026 North Beckley and Top Ten as valid destinations for Tippit. As Top Ten does appear to have credible witnesses one logically has to exclude a pause by Tippit outside the LHO rooming house.

It seems to me (and I apologise if this has been stated previously by others).

If LHO entered 1026 NBeckley and did not use a transport method other than on foot he did not shoot Tippit.

If LHO did not enter 1026 NBeckley but somehow had a handgun he could have shot Tippit and fled to the Texas Theatre.

If a police car beeped outside 1026 NBeckley it was not Tippit's car.

regards

Neville

Edited November 1, 2008 by Neville Gully

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Duke, the NBC news report you refer to was the first TELEVISION report not the first RADIO report. The first radio report of a policeman (no mention of Tippits name yet) being shot in Oak Cliff was on radio KLIF at 1.33.

It's always good to know facts. Got a cite on that one? NBC, unless I'm mistaken (which is possible) was also involved in radio at that time, so it's not necessarily apparent that it was a television announcement.

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/w...H25_CE_2275.pdf

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.conspir...a67db92e456971b

http://www.reelradio.com/se/index.html#klif112263

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=6322

Thanks for these links, Denis, but it would help if you could tell us exactly where in these files we can find the first radio broadcast of the Tippit shooting