Lee Oswald’s Departure from the TSBD

[Duke Lane]

As I see it Oswald cannot get to 1026 North Beckley early enough to walk (even briskly) to get to 10th and Patton soon enough to meet Tippit by 1.06-1.10. I am in total agreement with you on that one. If it was Oswald, he either had other transportation to get there quicker or it was someone else who shot Tippit. Or it was not Oswald who entered 1026 North Beckley.

All true ... except that, if Oswald didn't go into 1026, then he killed Tippit without a gun ....

Can we hypothese that LHO took the handgun to the TSBD that day, therefore he didn't need to retrieve it from the roominghouse?

He was arrested with a gun, so either;

a) he went to 1026 to retrieve it but without travel assitance didn't shoot Tippit with it or

he went to 1026 to retrieve it and then later finished up at the Texas Theatre or

c) the gun was placed in his posession sometime before or during his arrest.

d) he had the gun with him at the TSBD and didn't visit 1026

So for LHO to be tagged with 2 murders he needed assistance (someone else was involved) or

Tippit's murderer was not Kennedy's (if LHO was)

I'd have a difficulty with (d) since not only would he have had to manage getting the rifle into the building and up to the sixth floor (which nobody saw him do), he also would've had to have brought the pistol in as well, which might well have involved him sitting directly next to Buell Frazier with a gun in his belt, uncomfortable if in back, bulky if not obvious if in front. Too, he'd have had to store it somewhere that made it readily accessible within about a minute of his encounter with Geraldean Reid before leaving the building, which leaves open the possibility of it being discovered by a co-worker. There is also the possibility of it having been seen by someone on the bus or elsewhere during his travels from the TSBD to Oak Cliff.

Since there's not a scintilla of evidence or even a suggestion that he had taken the pistol to work with him that day or on some day before, I think we'd have to discount that possibility.

Does ( mean that he went directly from 1026 to the theater?

Edited November 3, 2008 by Duke Lane

[Steve Mcdonagh]

Hi,

“12:17 - Tippit "out of the car a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View” – “12:20 - Tippit radio’s "clear" from Hodges, apparently with the shoplifter in his car”

“12:45 - Tippit contacted by dispatch, indicates that he is at "about Kiest and Bonnie View."”

Duke, do you know for certain what Tippit was doing during this crucial period of 12.20 and 12.45? And can you categorically state that “Tippit was up to nothing nefarious at that point in time”?

How did Tippit know about the shoplifter, was he sent to 4100 bonnie view by his dispatcher?

Thanks - Steve

[Neville Gully]

[12:20 - Tippit radios "clear" from Hodges, apparently with the shoplifter in his car.

If the shoplifter was still in the car why would JD call "clear"? I would have thought this is an indication that he ready to respond to a new call and unencumbered. Is 3 minutes enough time to deal with the shoplifter and drop her maybe even a few blocks away?

12:49 - Nelson calls in, "87. I'm on south end Houston Street viaduct;" dispatcher acknowledges: "10-4." This is approximately 1.2 miles directly north on Marsalis, estimated at a three-minute drive by Google Maps. The location is at the far northeast edge of Oak Cliff.

This is not far from Gloco.......

12:52 - The following exchange takes place on Channel One:

87

: 87.

DIS

: 87.

87

: 87 out down here.

DIS

: 10-4.

Has it been established that "down here" refers to the TSBD". Has it been established that Nelson was at the TSBD at this time? Could he be parked at Gloco?

12:54 - The following exchange takes place on Channel One:

DIS

: 78.

78

: 78.

DIS

: You are in the Oak Cliff area, are you not?

78

: Lancaster and 8th.

DIS

: You will be at large for any emergency that comes in.

78

: 10-4.

This exchange takes place approximately half-way between the 12:54 and 12:55 time checks, that is, about nine minutes after the original call directing Tippit (and Nelson) into central Oak Cliff (my mistake calling it eight minutes).

Interesting that Tippit is travelling North (presumably) at a similar time frame that a police car was reported to be travelling at speed south on Lancaster according to the Gloco witnesses. Do you think that we can believe their report? Might Tippit have seen this car and become intrigued as it was heading away from where the action was?

[Neville Gully]

I'd have a difficulty with (d) since not only would he have had to manage getting the rifle into the building and up to the sixth floor (which nobody saw him do), he also would've had to have brought the pistol in as well, which might well have involved him sitting directly next to Buell Frazier with a gun in his belt, uncomfortable if in back, bulky if not obvious if in front.

Did he wear his blue jacket to work that morning? If so, might he be able to use that? Maybe it was in the bag? Of course he would have had to take it to work with him on the Thursday, unless it was stored at Irving and not the rooming house.

Too, he'd have had to store it somewhere that made it readily accessible within about a minute of his encounter with Geraldean Reid before leaving the building, which leaves open the possibility of it being discovered by a co-worker.

Well he supposely succesfully did this for the bulky rifle beforehand somehow. Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

There is also the possibility of it having been seen by someone on the bus or elsewhere during his travels from the TSBD to Oak Cliff.

I found it strange that the McWatter bus was reported to have been searched by police after LHO supposedly got off. Why would you search a bus for a suspect when it was travelling towards the crime scene? Do we know of any other busses that were similarly searched? Was the bus leaving Dealy when this occured?

Does ( mean that he went directly from 1026 to the theater?

Well I think that it is a possibility. As without a faster means of transport he is not at 10th and Patton to be Tippit's killer. I have seen claims that another police car was parked in the driveway opposite Tippit's car, between 404 and 410 10th (I think). Could this be our mysterious Gloco, "beeping" 1026 and LHO transportation that got him to where Tippit was killed?

[Mark Knight]

[Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

Now, here you may actually be onto something. For years, the argument has always been whether or not Oswld carried the rifle into the TSBD on November 22; I don't know if I've ever heard a theory that Oswald might have smuggled part of the rifle into the TSBD at an earlier date, and then just brought the barrel in on the 22nd.

But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

Perhaps this might even open up a discussion that Oswald might have obtained the 91/38 in pieces, rather than as a complete rifle [as the 91/24 from Klein'swas when shipped to him].

Sorry to hijack the thread...maybe we can open a new one to discuss this possibility.

[Duke Lane]

... Duke, do you know for certain what Tippit was doing during this crucial period of 12.20 and 12.45? And can you categorically state that "Tippit was up to nothing nefarious at that point in time"?

How did Tippit know about the shoplifter, was he sent to 4100 bonnie view by his dispatcher?

I don't know that there's anything "crucial" about this time frame. He had been to lunch at home until 11:50, as I recall, and had to drive into that area from where he lived. According the the story told to Chris Scally by Larry Ray Harris, the market manager called the police about the shoplifter, yet there is no indication that this was ever reported over the police radio; it was, of course, before the shooting downtown, so it's not as if there was too much going on.

There are various possibilities including that Tippit may have been driving by and seen the manager holding someone or that he'd simply stopped there - he was on routine patrol in the area, after all - to get a pack of cigarettes or a coke. That, of course, leaves open the question of how the dispatcher would have known that he was "out on investigation" (Signal 4) since all he said on the radio at 12:17 was that he would be "out of the car for a minute, 4100 block of Bonnie View." The mark-out record was apparently stamped on that day and with that time, so it is not apparently something that was dummied up later (especially since resetting the clock probably involved opening the machine up and adjusting it in full view of officers who were assigned to that duty 24/7).

This then implies that there was some communication between Tippit and dispatch; since it wasn't by radio, the best guess would be that it was by phone. It strikes me that Dale Myers asserted exactly that. Since this was before the downtown shooting, the phone lines were presumably as easy to get through as any other normal time. Since there are no recordings or other records of phone calls made in and out of dispatch, there is no way to state that categorically.

The inference, however, between the storekeeper calling the cops and the dispatcher knowing why Tippit was out of the car, is that they did talk and the only way that was possible at the time was by telephone since it wasn't by radio.

Only one man knows for absolutely certain what JD Tippit was doing during that time of day, and he was killed at 10th and Patton Streets in Dallas on November 22, 1963. I cannot prove the negative, that he "was up to nothing nefarious," but there is nothing other than supposition about various possibilities that even remotely suggests that he was. "Could he have, do you think he might've, isn't it possible" all form questions without any substance. If there is actual substance, I'd be glad to hear of it.

[Duke Lane]

12:20 - Tippit radios "clear" from Hodges, apparently with the shoplifter in his car.

If the shoplifter was still in the car why would JD call "clear"? I would have thought this is an indication that he ready to respond to a new call and unencumbered. Is 3 minutes enough time to deal with the shoplifter and drop her maybe even a few blocks away?

I think it's fair to say that it's not an exact science. "I can take another call" does not necessarily mean "I have absolutely no distractions and am sitting here waiting for you to tell me what to do." Nor need it be, because under most circumstances, officers are not getting a new call immediately after finishing another one; there's usually a lag - sometimes quite long - between finishing what they're doing and having something else they need to respond to.

All of that to say merely that Tippit may very well have had someone sitting in the car with him when he said he was "clear," knowing full well that he would be spending a few more minutes with them, but could leave them if he was needed elsewhere.

12:49 - Nelson calls in, "87. I'm on south end Houston Street viaduct;" dispatcher acknowledges: "10-4." This is approximately 1.2 miles directly north on Marsalis, estimated at a three-minute drive by Google Maps. The location is at the far northeast edge of Oak Cliff.

This is not far from Gloco.......

12:52 - The following exchange takes place on Channel One:

87

: 87.

DIS

: 87.

87

: 87 out down here.

DIS

: 10-4.

Has it been established that "down here" refers to the TSBD". Has it been established that Nelson was at the TSBD at this time? Could he be parked at Gloco?

The south end of the Houston Street viaduct is exactly where the Gloco was. Since he was AT the Gloco, why would he wait three minutes to say he was there, when three minutes is also about the distance to TSBD and he did end up leaving there later. If you wish to put him at the Gloco, you can do so since it's not possible to prove beyond any doubt that he wasn't there, or was at TSBD at any given time, since the question of his whereabouts never arose during the official investigation and neither he nor anyone else was ever asked on record. Check out, however, what Dale Myers has to say about him and what he had to say in With Malice: chances are, such a supposition wouldn't hold up.

Interesting that Tippit is travelling North (presumably) at a similar time frame that a police car was reported to be travelling at speed south on Lancaster according to the Gloco witnesses. Do you think that we can believe their report? Might Tippit have seen this car and become intrigued as it was heading away from where the action was?

I'm not sure where you gather that information from. There's no indication that either of these cars crossed paths during that timeframe. Explain it to me.

Did he wear his blue jacket to work that morning? If so, might he be able to use that? Maybe it was in the bag? Of course he would have had to take it to work with him on the Thursday, unless it was stored at Irving and not the rooming house.

... Well he supposely succesfully did this for the bulky rifle [stored it somewhere that made it readily accessible] beforehand somehow. Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

You can find out about the jacket by reading Buell Frazier's and Frankie Kaiser's testimonies. Anything, I suppose, is possible; the question is, is there any evidence to support the possibility beyond pure conjecture?

I found it strange that the McWatter bus was reported to have been searched by police after LHO supposedly got off. Why would you search a bus for a suspect when it was travelling towards the crime scene? Do we know of any other busses that were similarly searched? Was the bus leaving Dealy when this occured?

Who said that the bus was searched? If it was, how long did they say it was held up? Did anyone corroborate that? Is there any other evidence that would support or refute that recollection? What is it? I don't believe that the bus was searched, but you can prove me wrong.

As without a faster means of transport he is not at 10th and Patton to be Tippit's killer. I have seen claims that another police car was parked in the driveway opposite Tippit's car, between 404 and 410 10th (I think). Could this be our mysterious Gloco, "beeping" 1026 and LHO transportation that got him to where Tippit was killed?

Could be, but flesh out how you think it would work. Cop picks up his buddy Oswald after Lee gets his gun; drives him down to 10th & Patton, says "okay, here's where you shoot one of my fellow officers in cold blood while I sip a coke in my car," and Lee says "okey-dokey, artichokee," gets out, guns Tippit down, and takes off running without his cop-buddy? I know that's sarcastic, but nevertheless, to hypothesize it, you should fill in the relevent fact and see if they "listen."

[Duke Lane]

... But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

A definite thought ... but aren't curtain rods straight? Did the gun barrel separate from the firing mechanism? How would a "curtain rod" with a trigger sticking out the side and an offset onto which the stock attached not raise an eyebrow?

[Wim Dankbaar]

Relevant page below. Not everything is factual. Carr never said that the man he saw running towards him (which I believe was Richard Cain) stepped into a stationwagon. The driver of the stationwagon, picking up Oswald later on Elm Street was Davis Morales in my opinion. Therefore I believe that Richard Cain and David Morales were on the sixth floor, and not to fill book orders.

[Mark Knight]

... But a rifle barrel might well be passed off as "curtain rods" without raising an eyebrow.

A definite thought ... but aren't curtain rods straight? Did the gun barrel separate from the firing mechanism? How would a "curtain rod" with a trigger sticking out the side and an offset onto which the stock attached not raise an eyebrow?

Yes, Duke, the barrel does separate from the firing mechanism.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/productschem.asp...erModel=1240z38

Reference #14 in the diagram. So the barrel wouldn't have any of the receiver or "action" attached, if it were disassembled...and could conceivably have been carried in separately from the rest of the rifle. The barrel shown here is 20.9" long; now, I'm 6'1" tall, a bit taller than LHO, but I wouldn't have any problem carrying a 21" rifle barrel tucked under my armpit in my cupped hand.

I've moved this discussion to a separate Carcano thread, so as not to detract from this thread on Oswald's departure from the TSBD:

Carcano thread

Edited November 7, 2008 by Mark Knight

[Neville Gully]

The south end of the Houston Street viaduct is exactly where the Gloco was. Since he was AT the Gloco, why would he wait three minutes to say he was there, when three minutes is also about the distance to TSBD and he did end up leaving there later. If you wish to put him at the Gloco, you can do so since it's not possible to prove beyond any doubt that he wasn't there, or was at TSBD at any given time, since the question of his whereabouts never arose during the official investigation and neither he nor anyone else was ever asked on record.

Am I correct in assuming that "out" means that Neslon would be out of the car, "there" wherever that was? According to the official version Nelson thinks he's going to the TSBD and the dispacther thinks he's at Oak Cliff. So would the dispatcher now think that Nelson was out of his car somewhere in Oak Cliff? Duke, do you think there was a patrol car parked at Gloco? Given the evidence, I do. So if it was not Tippits' car, it was either a) another Dallas car or a phony Patrol car. So in order to answer a) Could the Car have been Nelson's parked at Gloco, even innocently?

Check out, however, what Dale Myers has to say about him and what he had to say in With Malice: chances are, such a supposition wouldn't hold up.

I do not have access to Meyers' book. In my reading I have only come across comments saying he was reluctant to talk to Meyers. I also found a report that Nelson, towards the end of his life was claiming that he had some interesting information about Nov 22 to release (for money). So it's difficult for me to comment further. I appreciate would a brief analysis as to why my supposition might not hold.

Interesting that Tippit is travelling North (presumably) at a similar time frame that a police car was reported to be travelling at speed south on Lancaster according to the Gloco witnesses. Do you think that we can believe their report? Might Tippit have seen this car and become intrigued as it was heading away from where the action was?

I'm not sure where you gather that information from. There's no indication that either of these cars crossed paths during that timeframe. Explain it to me.

OK, if we go with the theory that Tippit is responding to the go to Oak Cliff call from Bonnie View and Kienst and is at Lancaster and 8th at 12.54. Also we have 5 witnesses saying there is a Dallas patrol car at Gloco in this timeframe that heads off at a rapid pace southward. Assuming that Tippit hears the commotion going on about the TSBD on the radio and sees a car heading fast in a direction away from that location, might he think something might be up? Might he be inclined to follow?

[Neville Gully]

Did he wear his blue jacket to work that morning? If so, might he be able to use that? Maybe it was in the bag? Of course he would have had to take it to work with him on the Thursday, unless it was stored at Irving and not the rooming house.

... Well he supposely succesfully did this for the bulky rifle [stored it somewhere that made it readily accessible] beforehand somehow. Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

You can find out about the jacket by reading Buell Frazier's and Frankie Kaiser's testimonies. Anything, I suppose, is possible; the question is, is there any evidence to support the possibility beyond pure conjecture?

OK, so he did wear a (grey) jacket to work. I am only trying to see what can be concluded or exluded from information available. So Frazier reports LHO heading off before him with a package under his arm towards the TSBD and no others report seeing him with it arround his arrival. So it seems likely that a "secure" spot for the package was somewhere near the entrance of the building.

As without a faster means of transport he is not at 10th and Patton to be Tippit's killer. I have seen claims that another police car was parked in the driveway opposite Tippit's car, between 404 and 410 10th (I think). Could this be our mysterious Gloco, "beeping" 1026 and LHO transportation that got him to where Tippit was killed?

Could be, but flesh out how you think it would work. Cop picks up his buddy Oswald after Lee gets his gun; drives him down to 10th & Patton, says "okay, here's where you shoot one of my fellow officers in cold blood while I sip a coke in my car," and Lee says "okey-dokey, artichokee," gets out, guns Tippit down, and takes off running without his cop-buddy? I know that's sarcastic, but nevertheless, to hypothesize it, you should fill in the relevent fact and see if they "listen."

/Sarcasm mode on/ Maybe he was a suspected jaywalker and got a lift and droped off [sarcasm mode off]. I don't know and I am not convinced by the police car in the alleyway story either. Do you think LHO was present in Tippit's shooting? Do you think is likely that 2 Dallas patrol cars were moving around the relatively small area around Oak Cilff in the half hour between 12.45 and 1.15?

Edited November 9, 2008 by Neville Gully

[Neville Gully]

I found it strange that the McWatter bus was reported to have been searched by police after LHO supposedly got off. Why would you search a bus for a suspect when it was travelling towards the crime scene? Do we know of any other busses that were similarly searched? Was the bus leaving Dealy when this occured?

Who said that the bus was searched? If it was, how long did they say it was held up? Did anyone corroborate that? Is there any other evidence that would support or refute that recollection? What is it? I don't believe that the bus was searched, but you can prove me wrong.

OK, perhaps you read my statement in a way that you thought I was convinced by this "report". It was the report that I found strange, and it is. It appears in a statement from Roy Milton Jones (from memory). BTW, on the balance of evidence/probability, I don't believe the bus was searched either.

[Duke Lane]

Am I correct in assuming that "out" means that Neslon would be out of the car, "there" wherever that was? According to the official version Nelson thinks he's going to the TSBD and the dispacther thinks he's at Oak Cliff. So would the dispatcher now think that Nelson was out of his car somewhere in Oak Cliff? Duke, do you think there was a patrol car parked at Gloco? Given the evidence, I do. So if it was not Tippits' car, it was either a] another Dallas car or b] a phony Patrol car. So in order to answer a) Could the Car have been Nelson's parked at Gloco, even innocently?

I do not have access to Meyers' book. In my reading I have only come across comments saying he was reluctant to talk to Meyers. I also found a report that Nelson, towards the end of his life was claiming that he had some interesting information about Nov 22 to release (for money). So it's difficult for me to comment further. I appreciate would a brief analysis as to why my supposition might not hold.

"Out" means, in essence, "unavailable" or "away from the car" or even "done for the day." Remember that, when it becomes jargon - i.e., something you use every day in speaking to your peers - meanings may not always be exact.

I cannot recall Nelson ever having been any focus of inquiry, officially or otherwise; had he not been ordered into Oak Cliff along with Tippit, he'd probably have been a complete non-entity. I cannot speak to what anybody thought, but only to the reasonableness of a possible interpretation. Here are the facts and my interpretation:

At 12:42, a call was made for "all downtown units" to proceed Code 3 to Elm & Houston. According to Chief Curry, Lieutenant Pierce and Sergeant Owens, SOP was for outlying units (from any major crime scene) to move in closer from their assigned districts in the event they might be needed. This was the rationale used to explain why JD Tippit was at Lancaster and 8th, in District 106, nearer to downtown than his usual patrol in District 78, in the beginning of April prior to anyone becoming aware of the 1:46 order for him and Nelson to "move into central Oak Cliff."

At the time of the latter call, Nelson was on Marsalis at the R.L. Thornton Expressway, which is I-35E south of downtown; JD Tippit was at Kiest & Bonnie View; Tippit was in his regularly assigned district, while Nelson was already several miles north of his district, the northern border of which was Ledbetter Avenue (Ledbetter was also the southern border of Tippit's district).

For the record, some officers manned adjacent districts in addition to their "primary" districts, such as Patrolman R.W. Walker (not to be confused with C.T. Walker) who was patrolling both districts 85 (his primary) and 86; Nelson was also assigned to either 88 (to the west) or 79 (Bill Anglin's district; Anglin was assigned to the parade), thus making Nelson's the outermost districts. It should also be noted that, while officers were expected to be in their regularly assigned districts whenever they were available, this was not always the case since things both official (such as bringing someone to jail) or unofficial (coffee breaks, meals, etc.) might take them out of their assigned districts, sometimes quite distant if they went home to eat (Tippit lived about 8 miles from his patrol district, for example).

Prior to the 12:46 call, Nelson was heard from at just before 12:40 signalling "clear," location not stated. Where he'd started from and where he'd been two minutes later when the "all downtown units" call came through is anybody's good guess. He was, however, going north "on Marsalis at R.L. Thornton," which could only be away from his district. Whether he decided that he was a "downtown unit" because he was only a couple of miles away is likewise anyone's good guess since we don't know his thoughts. We do know, however, that a] he was already proceeding toward downtown and was at the edge of the central Oak Cliff business district when the 12:46 call came in, b] that he acknowledge the order to "move into central Oak Cliff," and c] next radioed in at the far northeast portion of "central Oak Cliff" at the south end of the Houston Street viaduct, before d] ending up at the TSBD.

Between c] and d] is when he made the "out down here" call, about three minutes after making the "south end Houston Street viaduct." I cannot prove where "down here" is, but given the three-minute lapse between being at the end of the viaduct where Gloco was located and being "down here," it seems quite unlikely that "down here" is at the south end of the viaduct at the Gloco. Moreover, since he'd ended up at TSBD and left there again later after the citizen call, it likewise seems unlikely that he would have gone south on Lancaster to points unknown and then back to TSBD just so he could be assigned somewhere else from there.

Frankly, part of that supposition is based on my feeling that Nelson wasn't the sharpest knife in the drawer, this because he seemingly didn't think his ignoring the "central Oak Cliff" call had any significance, and the fact that he wouldn't talk about something apparently insignificant unless he was paid for it. Whatever it was that he was willing to talk about for money, if it was nefarious and someone paid him the money he wanted, he was exposing himself tremendously to whatever repercussions might befall him; not very bright.

In sum, the fact that he was already heading in toward downtown, without being told to, after the "all downtown units" call, added to SOP (which he was exceeding) of moving in toward a scene, leads more to the conclusion that he actually went downtown than that he just decided to hang out at a filling station for a while. It is, of course, possible that he did stay at the bottom of the viaduct at the Gloco station for his own report, putatively to the Chief of Police, stated that he was "assigned to the TSBD" and that he "remained [in front of it] for the remainder of the afternoon," both of which are clearly false statements.

There is more to the overall story than this, but my opinion is that a] there was a police car at the Gloco station, and b] it was not Nelson's.

Interesting that Tippit is travelling North (presumably) at a similar time frame that a police car was reported to be travelling at speed south on Lancaster according to the Gloco witnesses. Do you think that we can believe their report? Might Tippit have seen this car and become intrigued as it was heading away from where the action was?

I'm not sure where you gather that information from. There's no indication that either of these cars crossed paths during that timeframe. Explain it to me.

OK, if we go with the theory that Tippit is responding to the go to Oak Cliff call from Bonnie View and Kienst and is at Lancaster and 8th at 12.54. Also we have 5 witnesses saying there is a Dallas patrol car at Gloco in this timeframe that heads off at a rapid pace southward. Assuming that Tippit hears the commotion going on about the TSBD on the radio and sees a car heading fast in a direction away from that location, might he think something might be up? Might he be inclined to follow?

OK, I get you now: you're talking about the car speeding south on Lancaster being seen by Tippit as he crossed over from the highway. Possible, but who knows? The first issue is that we don't know how far south on Lancaster the car went; second, we don't know what time it left the Gloco: if it was as late as 1:00 - as "Car 10" leaves open - then Tippit was probably long gone from there.

The innate difficulty in making this match-up, however, is that there was no radio call of any emergency in Oak Cliff. Would one cop think that there was an emergency that he didn't hear about just because another cop sped by or was disappearing in the distance? Since he didn't hear about it, wouldn't it make sense that, before rushing blindly after another officer for no apparent reason, he would ask dispatch about it (which he did not)? Not only was there no emergency call, but there was likewise no call for backup: even despite the circumstances of the day, none of the other cops in town provided backup for others on a whim, that is, without checking with dispatch first. Other than that none of the other cops ended up dead that day, why would we think that Tippit would do such a thing?

A cop speeding through the area without an emergency call is not something that would arouse another cop's suspicion; what was there to be suspicious of? Something had happened downtown, but by this point, not an awful lot was known about it in the field other than that there was a shooting involving the President. Nothing was going on in Oak Cliff, but even if Tippit was suspicious for some reason, why would he start to follow another cop without saying anything to dispatch or trying to call the other cop, especially if he felt something was amiss?

But let's say that he did: Tippit followed him ... where? If he lost the other cop, it seems all the more curious not to contact dispatch: "I saw another patrol whizzing down Lancaster, but lost sight of him. Looked like he was on an emergency [the ostensible reason Tippit was assigned to Oak Cliff in the first place]; does he need help?" Instead, nothing but dead silence on the issue. Tippit, who's in that part of town to handle "any emergency that comes in" sees an apparent emergency situation, loses sight of the patol in question, then just shrugs it off, says nothing to anybody, and goes merrily on his way. Doesn't listen.

Or maybe he didn't lose him. Followed him ... where? And did what? Certainly didn't assist in any emergency; we'd have known about that: cops just didn't deal with emergencies without telling other cops about them (a prime clue that the stop on 10th wasn't an emergency either), one of them would have announced something over the radio. So Tippit sees the other guy doesn't have an emergency, apparently doesn't stop to converse with him since there was only one other cop on duty in Oak Cliff and nobody reported talking with Tippit before his death. So, again we have Tippit shrugging it off and ignoring all police procedure, and again, it doesn't listen.

Only if you put stock in the Andrews story about a wild-eyed Tippit jumping out of his car to check to check the guy's back seat before rushing back to the car and roaring off is there any indication that something might be up in Oak Cliff at the time. But then, only a matter of minutes later, Tippit's completely calmed down, cruising slowly down a side street, and pulls over to talk with some guy on the side of the road "real friendly like," isn't tense, doesn't draw his gun, and ends up dead in the process.

Where's the connection between the harried Tippit and the one who got shot, not a care in the world?

More in the next post.

[Duke Lane]

I found it strange that the McWatter bus was reported to have been searched by police after LHO supposedly got off. Why would you search a bus for a suspect when it was travelling towards the crime scene? Do we know of any other busses that were similarly searched? Was the bus leaving Dealy when this occured?

Who said that the bus was searched? If it was, how long did they say it was held up? Did anyone corroborate that? Is there any other evidence that would support or refute that recollection? What is it? I don't believe that the bus was searched, but you can prove me wrong.

OK, perhaps you read my statement in a way that you thought I was convinced by this "report". It was the report that I found strange, and it is. It appears in a statement from Roy Milton Jones (from memory). BTW, on the balance of evidence/probability, I don't believe the bus was searched either.

Right. It couldn't have been detained for an hour, as Jones said, and still have been able to pick up the woman with the suitcase before she got to Union Station, as it did.

Did he wear his blue jacket to work that morning? If so, might he be able to use that? Maybe it was in the bag? Of course he would have had to take it to work with him on the Thursday, unless it was stored at Irving and not the rooming house.

... Well he supposely succesfully did this for the bulky rifle [stored it somewhere that made it readily accessible] beforehand somehow. Given the statements about the length of Oswald's paper bag according to Frazier and his sister I have often wondered if it contained the barrel but not the stock.

You can find out about the jacket by reading Buell Frazier's and Frankie Kaiser's testimonies. Anything, I suppose, is possible; the question is, is there any evidence to support the possibility beyond pure conjecture?

OK, so he did wear a (grey) jacket to work. I am only trying to see what can be concluded or exluded from information available. So Frazier reports LHO heading off before him with a package under his arm towards the TSBD and no others report seeing him with it around his arrival. So it seems likely that a "secure" spot for the package was somewhere near the entrance of the building.

Problem: Frazier said he wore a grey jacket? Oswald didn't wear a jacket when seen by Bledsoe or Whaley (in his initial statement, on 11/23/63). The "grey" jacket was found in Oak Cliff, a block from the Tippit shooting, after he'd apparently put it on at 1026; the blue jacket was found at TSBD 10 days later.

As to "Frazier reports LHO heading off before him with a package under his arm towards the TSBD and no others report seeing him with it around his arrival. So it seems likely that a 'secure' spot for the package was somewhere near the entrance of the building," while it is indeed possible, there's no evidence that Oswald did anything but go directly into the building. And as a bit of information you're not likely to read anywhere in the very near future, Oswald had a distinct reason for not stopping along the way from the car to the building: he had to visit the head in a hurry.

The only person who said he saw Oswald enter the building was Jack Dougherty, who said that he didn't see anything in Oswald's hands. That doesn't mean that Oswald didn't have anything in his hands, only that Jack didn't see it; Frazier said that you couldn't see it from behind, and tho' he couldn't testify to this, it seems pretty apparent that you couldn't see it from the front either: after all, it was in his hand and under his armpit.

The other thing it means is that it was not a 40" rifle being snuck in in a bag.

As without a faster means of transport he is not at 10th and Patton to be Tippit's killer. I have seen claims that another police car was parked in the driveway opposite Tippit's car, between 404 and 410 10th (I think). Could this be our mysterious Gloco, "beeping" 1026 and LHO transportation that got him to where Tippit was killed?

Could be, but flesh out how you think it would work. Cop picks up his buddy Oswald after Lee gets his gun; drives him down to 10th & Patton, says "okay, here's where you shoot one of my fellow officers in cold blood while I sip a coke in my car," and Lee says "okey-dokey, artichokee," gets out, guns Tippit down, and takes off running without his cop-buddy? I know that's sarcastic, but nevertheless, to hypothesize it, you should fill in the relevent fact and see if they "listen."

/Sarcasm mode on/ Maybe he was a suspected jaywalker and got a lift and droped off [sarcasm mode off]. I don't know and I am not convinced by the police car in the alleyway story either. Do you think LHO was present in Tippit's shooting? Do you think is likely that 2 Dallas patrol cars were moving around the relatively small area around Oak Cilff in the half hour between 12.45 and 1.15?

My point was that it doesn't seem even remotely possible that one cop would drive a civilian to a part of town, leave him off with a gun in his hand, then stand idly by while a fellow officer gets shot and the guy doesn't do anything about it, especially knowing that Oswald, who'd just been in his car, had done the shooting. If it was Oswald and he thought he was getting set up, why wouldn't he turn on his "ride" once he had the gun in his hand?

My answers to the your questions are no and yes.

Edited November 9, 2008 by Duke Lane