Zfilm Revisited

[Bill Miller]

Just what film/version are we talking about?

15 seconds of film, we're missing the other 11 seconds.

5 seconds from point of first impact til the limo reaches the underpass, which actually takes 15 seconds, according to the fiasco passed off as the

official film.

Looks like they included too many facts.

Please do send along more articles.

chris

The person that wrote this article didn't see the film, but rather reported something that had been passed along. I would say that Gary Mack has offered the most sensible answer, but that wouldn't be exactly true because so far he has offered the only sensible answer about what the 15 seconds was about. Just once instead of buffs trying to read minds based on partial information through second hand+ reports ... find an assassination witness who has seen the assassination films and report what they saw, if anything, that was different than what actually happened.

[Bill Miller]

Actually, there is considerable information in the article.

The article is so vague ... the second shot fired - the second shot fired into JFK - the second shot heard - the second shot fired into JFK's head what ???? All that these vague statements prove is that some people heard things that others did not and visa-versa.

[Lee Forman]

Unfortunately, the Associated Press article does not mention the name of the reporter who saw the film and reported on its contents. But whoever it was saw and explained an extremely important fact: 15 seconds elapsed from the beginning of the assassination to when the car entered the triple underpass. Is that true? Let's check.

I refer everyone to post:

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...st&p=144830

Might want to reread the article and pay special attention to what's in the red boxes.

Then compare it to what is in post 177 and the quote at the top of this post.

chris

Chris - don't know if you are familiar with Palamara's work - this one I always found interesting...

Confessions of An Ex-Secret Service Agent

QUOTE

We'd also watch films of real-life assassinations. Naturally, the featured attraction was the home movie Abraham Zapruder shot in Dallas on November 22, 1963. They showed you the gruesome version that the public usually didn't see, where parts of President Kennedy's brain sprayed all over Jackie.

[Miles Scull]

Actually, there is considerable information in the article.

The article is so vague ... the second shot fired - the second shot fired into JFK - the second shot heard - the second shot fired into JFK's head what ???? All that these vague statements prove is that some people heard things that others did not and visa-versa.

Right.

For example Hudson said that he heard a third shot as the limo entered the underpass. If the object seen in Z-416 is in fact Hudson.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head. Therefore it came from the TSBDB or the Dal-Tex. So someone was shooting at JFK when he was not visible to the shooter.

Hudson's testimony seems suspect.

Edit: spelling

Edited May 12, 2008 by Miles Scull

[Chris Davidson]

Thanks Lee,

I think that says it all.

chris

[Chris Davidson]

LEADING into frames 160-165 approx (the alignment frames), there is an appearance of film damage at frame 154+157.

Why does Jackie's hat appear twice in frame 157?

Looks like 2 distinct individual hats, no blurring involved.

Another coincidence!!!!

chris

Could the damaged frames (154-157) be an adjustment, setting up the alignment frames to come thereafter.

Notice the movement between 154+157.

BTW, I did not rotate the frames for this comparison, as I have done with the previous posts. They are within 1 degree of each other.

chris

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Actually, there is considerable information in the article.

The article is so vague ... the second shot fired - the second shot fired into JFK - the second shot heard - the second shot fired into JFK's head what ???? All that these vague statements prove is that some people heard things that others did not and visa-versa.

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...amp;qpid=144946

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/exhibits/ce2112.htm

A second shot followed immediately and hit the right rear high of the President's head.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/hudson.htm

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Mr. HUDSON - and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

Mr. LIEBELER - On the right-hand side or the left-hand side?

Mr. HUDSON - Right hand.

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right? [/b]

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say it was the second shot that hit him in the head?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes.

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/holland.htm

Mr. HOLLAND - And another report rang out and he slumped down in his seat,

Mr. HOLLAND - I observed it. It knocked him completely down on the floor. Over, just slumped completely over. That second---

Mr. STERN - Did you hear a third report?

Mr. HOLLAND - I heard a third report

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/brehm.htm

BREHM said when the President was hit by the second shot, he could notice the President's hair fly up, and then roll over to his side, as Mrs. KENNEDY was apparently pulling him in that direction.

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/greer.htm

Mr. SPECTER. You testified that at the second noise you glanced over your shoulder.

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. Which shoulder did you glance over?

Mr. GREER. Right shoulder.

Mr. SPECTER. And describe or indicate how far you turned your head to the right at that time?

Mr. GREER. Just so that my eyes over, caught the Governor, I could see, I couldn't see the President. I just could see the Governor. I made a quick glance and back again.

Mr. SPECTER. Was the movement of your head just then approximately the same?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. As the time?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir.

Mr. SPECTER. You just indicated the turn of your head slightly to the right.

Mr. GREER. My eyes slightly more than my head. My eyes went more than my head around. I had vision real quick of it.

Mr. SPECTER. Exactly where was Governor Connally when you first caught him out of the corner of your eye?

Mr. GREER. He was--he seemed to be falling a little bit toward Mrs. Connally, to the left. He started to go over a little bit to the left.

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It is only "vague" to those who either have not taken the time and effort to read and evaluate the witness statements, or else is severely lacking in the ability to understand the english language.

Z313---Second Shot impact-----Survey Stationing 4+65.3

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0464b.htm

Directly in front of James Altgens position----Survey Stationing 4+95---Third shot impact point.

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/...Vol17_0449a.htm

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http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/altgens.htm

Mr. ALTGENS - This would put me at approximately this area here, which would be about 15 feet from me at the time he was shot in the head--about 15 feet from the car on the west side of the car--on the side that Mrs. Kennedy was riding in the car.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z350.jpg

Mr. ALTGENS - but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

Mr. ALTGENS - Yes. What made me almost certain that the shot came from behind was because at the time I was looking at the President, just as he was struck, it caused him to move a bit forward. He seemed as if at the time----well, he was in a position-- sort of immobile. He wasn't upright. He was at an angle but when it hit him, it seemed to have just lodged--it seemed as if he were hung up on a seat button or something like that. It knocked him just enough forward that he came right on down. There was flesh particles that flew out of the side of his head in my direction from where I was standing,

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And, P.S. Bill! The US Secret Service as well as the FBI established that the third shot impact point was down in front of James Altgens position, just prior to the second yellow curb mark.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z351.jpg

As they both fully indicated on their generated Survey Plats made during their respective assassination re-enactments.

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[Bill Miller]

For example Hudson said that he heard a third shot as the limo entered the underpass. If the object seen in Z-416 is in fact Hudson.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head. Therefore it came from the TSBDB or the Dal-Tex. So someone was shooting at JFK when he was not visible to the shooter.

Hudson's testimony seems suspect.[/b][/color]

Edit: spelling

Suspect ... that can be said about many of your post. Maybe Hudson heard a backfire from a cycle that he took to be a shot ... there were some witnesses who heard shots and thought they were cycle backfires. Some people heard shots at different moments than others depending on what they were doing and where they were located in the plaza. For example ... Two shots or so into the assassination, Kennedy supporter Ralph Yarborough appears to still be smiling in Altgens 6. Charles Brehm is still clapping his hands as JFK passes by him.

And before you go on telling people what Emmett Hudson thought ... you may want to get some more information from his son (William Hudson).

[Miles Scull]

For example Hudson said that he heard a third shot as the limo entered the underpass. If the object seen in Z-416 is in fact Hudson.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head. Therefore it came from the TSBDB or the Dal-Tex. So someone was shooting at JFK when he was not visible to the shooter.

Hudson's testimony seems suspect.

Edit: spelling

Suspect ...

QUOTE

Ouch! Someone just sustained a self-inflicted foot injury.

Of course Hudson's head does not completely disappear in 1/18th of a second between Z-414 & Z-415.

But since it does, this proves that the object is NOT Hudson.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I was waiting for you to say something like this ... Z415 blurred, which causes objects to look like they have vanished. Why did you not mention this? Here is a clear frame following Z414 ... Husdon's head has lowered from view.

http://www.assassinationresearch.com/zfilm/z416.jpg

This post has been edited by Bill Miller: Apr 26 2008, 07:54 PM

Here's Zapruder frame 416.

According to BM, "Husdon's head has lowered from view," quoting BM.

But, actually the alleged "Hudson" object is seen in the white circle:

[Bill Miller]

Mr. HUDSON - and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

You must be joking! Bill Newman standing right next to the car had thought JFK's ear had come off, so if you want me to believe that Emmett Hudson from further down the street with his hands in his pockets can see the impact of a bullet when at the same time a halo of bloody cranial fluid surrounds the President's head, then save your breath. And I believe that Emmett in his mind had only heard two shots fired at the time of the head shot, but I also believe those witnesses who said the third shot hit the President in the head. The reason for this has been said many times in the past and its because that first of all someone has to recognize a noise as a shot. Then depending on where someone is located in the Plaza will determine what shots can be heard from different locations. This occurred during the 33 takes of 7 shots being fired during the making of the movie JFK.

Even Altgens who was across the street from Hudson had said that no shots were fired after the shot that hit JFK in the head ... Hudson says differently. Location and recognizing a noise as a shot or not were obviously determining factors ... neither of which one can reliably hang their hat on in my opinion.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

in my opinion.

Bill Miller

QUOTE

For example Hudson said that he heard a third shot as the limo entered the underpass. If the object seen in Z-416 is in fact Hudson.

Hudson said that the third shot came over his head. Therefore it came from the TSBDB or the Dal-Tex. So someone was shooting at JFK when he was not visible to the shooter.

Hudson's testimony seems suspect.

Suspect ... that can be said about many of your post. Maybe Hudson heard a backfire from a cycle that he took to be a shot ... -- MILLER

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir. I'll tell you - this young fellow that was sitting there with me - standing there with me at the present time, he says, "lay down, Mister, somebody is shooting the President." He says, "Lay down, lay down." and he kept repeating, "Lay down." so he was already laying down one way on the sidewalk, so I just laid down over on the ground and resting my arm on the ground and when that third shot rung out and when I was close to the ground - you could tell the shot was coming from above and kind of behind.

Have you read Hudson's testimony?

You say it could have been a BACKFIRE from a cycle?

Hudson says that the shot came from above and kind of behind.

So, was the cycle flying around 30 feet off the ground hovering above Dealey Plaza?

[Bill Miller]

According to BM, "Husdon's head has lowered from view," quoting BM.

But, actually the alleged "Hudson" object is seen in the white circle:

I disagree ... the shaded area of the hubcap from the limo, which is slightly blurred is what you are looking at, but of course I believe you already knew that despite what you alleged it to be.

Bill Miller

[Miles Scull]

According to BM, "Husdon's head has lowered from view," quoting BM.

But, actually the alleged "Hudson" object is seen in the white circle:

I disagree ... the shaded area of the hubcap from the limo, which is slightly blurred is what you are looking at, but of course I believe you already knew that despite what you alleged it to be.

Bill Miller

Hubcap? No jokes please.

No, if you can enlarge (blowup) this study you will find that the leaf (red arrows) shows the object present in Z-416 in the yellow oval.

[Bill Miller]

Just a question. Are those 2 frames in your Gif correctly numbered ?

Thanks

Duncan

The frames were taken from the MPI film. Because MPI made some mistakes in the numbering of their frames, I cannot vouch for their accuracy. One may wish to compare them to the Costella frames for a numbering comparison.

You may notice that Miles appears to be using the MPI version ... as I am, but I left on the numbers whereas Miles cropped his off. Below is Z416 from my MPI film.

Bill

Edited May 12, 2008 by Bill Miller

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Mr. HUDSON - and when the second one rung out, the motorcade had done got further on down Elm, and you see, I was trying to get a good look at President Kennedy. I happened to be looking right at him when that bullet hit him - the second shot.

Mr. LIEBELER - That was when the bullet hit him in the head; is that correct?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; it looked like it ht him somewhere along about a little bit behind the ear and a little bit above the ear.

You must be joking! Bill Newman standing right next to the car had thought JFK's ear had come off, so if you want me to believe that Emmett Hudson from further down the street with his hands in his pockets can see the impact of a bullet when at the same time a halo of bloody cranial fluid surrounds the President's head, then save your breath. And I believe that Emmett in his mind had only heard two shots fired at the time of the head shot, but I also believe those witnesses who said the third shot hit the President in the head. The reason for this has been said many times in the past and its because that first of all someone has to recognize a noise as a shot. Then depending on where someone is located in the Plaza will determine what shots can be heard from different locations. This occurred during the 33 takes of 7 shots being fired during the making of the movie JFK.

Even Altgens who was across the street from Hudson had said that no shots were fired after the shot that hit JFK in the head ... Hudson says differently. Location and recognizing a noise as a shot or not were obviously determining factors ... neither of which one can reliably hang their hat on in my opinion.

Bill Miller

In, what is most probably a futile attempt to assist you in overcoming your handicap,:

Mr. LIEBELER - How many shots did you here altogether?

Mr. HUDSON - Three.

Mr. LIEBELER - Three shots?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Are you sure about that?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - You say that it was the second shot that hit him in the head; is that right?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes; I do believe that - I know it was.

Mr. LIEBELER - You saw him hit in the head, there wasn't any question in your mind about that, was there?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - And after you saw him hit in the head, did you here another shot?

Mr. HUDSON - Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER - Did you see that shot hit anything - the third shot?

Mr. HUDSON - No, sir.

Emmet Hudson observed the SECOND SHOT/aka Z313 impact strike JFK in the head, he did not observe the third shot strike JFK, although he heard it fired.

Mr. ALTGENS - Well, it sounded like it was coming up from behind the car from my position--I mean the first shot, and being fireworks--who counts fireworks explosions? I wasn't keeping track of the number of pops that took place, but I could vouch for No. 1, and I can vouch for the last shot, but I cannot tell you how many shots were in between. There was not another shot fired after the President was struck in the head. That was the last shot--that much I will say with a great degree of certainty.

James Altgens observed the LAST/aka THIRD SHOT (the one that Hudson did not see strike) impact and damage to the head of JFK, directly in front of his position.

All of which clearly demonstrates exactly why you are among those who continue to search for mythological creatures amongst the manholes, trees, fences, and tall buildings of Dealy Plaza.

"Failure to understand the evidence has no bearing on the validity of that evidence"

Sometimes it merely means that one has an extremely low reading/comprehension ability!