A Hole In One!

[Don Jeffries]

The different people who thought they saw a T&T hole in the windshield pointed to different locations. Ellis saw a hole low on one side, Nick saw a hole low on another, Dudman saw a hole high up. Any attempt to make them all appear to be addressing the same spot is simplistic. There are obviously other factors involved.

In addition, there was a defect in the windshield, that has been captured in CE350, and is also visible in Altgens 1-7, as well as in CE 351, the windshield removed from the limo on Monday following the assassination.

The real question that we need to be asking is why there was so little damage to the limo? How could someone who was never seen shooting the M/C able to kill one person and nearly kill another without damaging the vehicle?

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

Mike,

I hear this mantra all the time now about the shots not being difficult. If they were so easy, why has no one ever been able to duplicate them? The government tried, CBS tried, and each time they used better shooters, as well as making the conditions easier for them. Still, they could never match the feat of this "rather poor shot," as Oswald was grudgingly described by a Marine Corps spokesman to the Warren Commission. So, apparently they weren't that easy.

Edited August 14, 2008 by Don Jeffries

[Thomas Graves]

The different people who thought they saw a T&T hole in the windshield pointed to different locations. Ellis saw a hole low on one side, Nick saw a hole low on another, Dudman saw a hole high up. Any attempt to make them all appear to be addressing the same spot is simplistic. There are obviously other factors involved.

In addition, there was a defect in the windshield, that has been captured in CE350, and is also visible in Altgens 1-7, as well as in CE 351, the windshield removed from the limo on Monday following the assassination.

The real question that we need to be asking is why there was so little damage to the limo? How could someone who was never seen shooting the M/C able to kill one person and nearly kill another without damaging the vehicle?

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

Mike,

I hear this mantra all the time now about the shots not being difficult. If they were so easy, why has no one ever been able to duplicate them? The government tried, CBS tried, and each time they used better shooters, as well as making the conditions easier for them. Still, they could never match the feat of this "rather poor shot," as Oswald was grudgingly described by a Marine Corps spokesman to the Warren Commission. So, apparently they weren't that easy.

__________________________________

I guess Oswald got really lucky. LOL

--Thomas

__________________________________

[Mike Williams]

The different people who thought they saw a T&T hole in the windshield pointed to different locations. Ellis saw a hole low on one side, Nick saw a hole low on another, Dudman saw a hole high up. Any attempt to make them all appear to be addressing the same spot is simplistic. There are obviously other factors involved.

In addition, there was a defect in the windshield, that has been captured in CE350, and is also visible in Altgens 1-7, as well as in CE 351, the windshield removed from the limo on Monday following the assassination.

The real question that we need to be asking is why there was so little damage to the limo? How could someone who was never seen shooting the M/C able to kill one person and nearly kill another without damaging the vehicle?

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

Mike,

I hear this mantra all the time now about the shots not being difficult. If they were so easy, why has no one ever been able to duplicate them? The government tried, CBS tried, and each time they used better shooters, as well as making the conditions easier for them. Still, they could never match the feat of this "rather poor shot," as Oswald was grudgingly described by a Marine Corps spokesman to the Warren Commission. So, apparently they weren't that easy.

Don,

You would be guessing wrong. The shots themselves are not difficult at all, the time frame they insist on squeezing these shots into is. Timing is what creates the difficulty.

Mike

[Mike Williams]

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

What is your frame of reference? Have you attempted to duplicate these shots yourself? What are the details?

Not difficult for whom? A sniper? LHO was never seen shooting the M/C, much less practicing with it.

Pamela,

My frame of reference is experience. Not in the capacity of a sniper, but in the capacity of a PMI or primary marksmanship instructor. I have worked with scores of Marines teaching them the rifle basics and getting them up to speed to qualify at 200 300 and 500 yards.

Just because Oswald was never seen practicing, does not mean that he did not do so. Given his personality traits, I would say it is likely that if he desired to practice he would find a remote local.

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

What is your frame of reference? Have you attempted to duplicate these shots yourself? What are the details?

Not difficult for whom? A sniper? LHO was never seen shooting the M/C, much less practicing with it.

LHO was never seen shooting the M/C, much less practicing with it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wood_s.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. WOOD. That one with the paper in his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. WOOD. That man right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one right here?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head..There are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that picture before?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. One like it?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has been one like that in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOOD. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I have to tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty good shot?

Mr. WOOD. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed.

============================

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wood_h.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw this man, you left the rifle range. Then later on the next Friday the President was assassinated, and at sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up Lee Harvey Oswald with this man that you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when and how you did that?

Dr. WOOD. I saw him flashed on the television screen at home several times. They would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring him back to his cell. This particular time I mentioned to my wife, I said to her, "Honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was sitting next to Sterling at the rifle range. But I am not going to say anything to Sterling because I want to see if he recognizes him and if he thinks it was."

Well, I would say within 30 minutes or an hour he was flashed back on the screen and he said to me, "Daddy, that is the fellow that was sitting next to me out on the rifle range."

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you, independently of your son, first noticed the resemblance between Oswald.

Dr. WOOD. And mentioned it to my wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Sterling was not in your presence at that time?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he was not in the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then later he came into the room, saw Oswald's picture on the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at the rifle range that previous Saturday, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

=====================================================================

Now!

One might need to take a few shots in order to sight the scope, but anyone who has been through and completed the USMC basic rifle marksmanship course does not require just a whole lot of practice to hit man-sized targets at ranges of less than 100 yards. (62 yards/81 yards/& 98 yard shots)

Which gives rise to exactly WHY? anyone actually fell for and believed "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

Save Ammo----Chunk Rocks, sticks, and empty brass.* (Used to include empty "C"-Ration Cans but this ammo was taken away with the advent of the new rations. Although the new box of rice could be a quite deadly missile if properly flung)

USMC Motto for all targets at less than 100 yards range.

[Thomas H. Purvis]

The different people who thought they saw a T&T hole in the windshield pointed to different locations. Ellis saw a hole low on one side, Nick saw a hole low on another, Dudman saw a hole high up. Any attempt to make them all appear to be addressing the same spot is simplistic. There are obviously other factors involved.

In addition, there was a defect in the windshield, that has been captured in CE350, and is also visible in Altgens 1-7, as well as in CE 351, the windshield removed from the limo on Monday following the assassination.

The real question that we need to be asking is why there was so little damage to the limo? How could someone who was never seen shooting the M/C able to kill one person and nearly kill another without damaging the vehicle?

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

Mike,

I hear this mantra all the time now about the shots not being difficult. If they were so easy, why has no one ever been able to duplicate them? The government tried, CBS tried, and each time they used better shooters, as well as making the conditions easier for them. Still, they could never match the feat of this "rather poor shot," as Oswald was grudgingly described by a Marine Corps spokesman to the Warren Commission. So, apparently they weren't that easy.

Don,

You would be guessing wrong. The shots themselves are not difficult at all, the time frame they insist on squeezing these shots into is. Timing is what creates the difficulty.

Mike

Don,

You would be guessing wrong. The shots themselves are not difficult at all, the time frame they insist on squeezing these shots into is. Timing is what creates the difficulty.

Mike

============================================================================

I do believe that I am in love!

[Pamela Brown]

Pamela,

My frame of reference is experience. Not in the capacity of a sniper, but in the capacity of a PMI or primary marksmanship instructor. I have worked with scores of Marines teaching them the rifle basics and getting them up to speed to qualify at 200 300 and 500 yards.

Just because Oswald was never seen practicing, does not mean that he did not do so. Given his personality traits, I would say it is likely that if he desired to practice he would find a remote local.

I would prefer to see some actual data. You are entitled to your opinion. If making these shots in the timing required with virtually no damage to the limo was so simple, why hasn't it been demonstrated?

"Given his personality traits?" Please. This is a man who refused to fight back when Carlos Bruinguier assaulted him in NOLA. Which 'personality trait' are you referencing?

In addition, nobody saw LHO with the M/C in Dallas. It was apparently in Mrs. Paine's garage, while LHO was in Oak Cliff most of the time. He didn't drive or have access to a car, so how would he transport the M/C to rifle practice in a remote location without being observed?

[Mike Williams]

Pamela,

The short answer is that there were no misses inside the limo. These shots were not difficult at all.

Mike

What is your frame of reference? Have you attempted to duplicate these shots yourself? What are the details?

Not difficult for whom? A sniper? LHO was never seen shooting the M/C, much less practicing with it.

LHO was never seen shooting the M/C, much less practicing with it.

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wood_s.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one?

Mr. WOOD. That one with the paper in his hand.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now I want to show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Which one is that?

Mr. WOOD. That man right here.

Mr. LIEBELER. This one right here?

Mr. WOOD. Yes.

Mr. LIEBELER. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I showed you.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. The man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head..There are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here.

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. Have you seen that picture before?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir.

Mr. LIEBELER. One like it?

Mr. WOOD. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has been one like that in the paper.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald?

Mr. WOOD. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard.

Mr. LIEBELER. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range?

Mr. WOOD. Yes, sir.

Mr. WOOD. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I have to tell you.

Mr. LIEBELER. He was a pretty good shot?

Mr. WOOD. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed.

============================

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/testimony/wood_h.htm

Mr. LIEBELER. After you saw this man, you left the rifle range. Then later on the next Friday the President was assassinated, and at sometime subsequent to that time, did you connect up Lee Harvey Oswald with this man that you saw at the rifle range?

Dr. WOOD. I did.

Mr. LIEBELER. Tell me when and how you did that?

Dr. WOOD. I saw him flashed on the television screen at home several times. They would interrogate him and bring him down the hall and bring him back to his cell. This particular time I mentioned to my wife, I said to her, "Honey, that looks exactly like the fellow that was sitting next to Sterling at the rifle range. But I am not going to say anything to Sterling because I want to see if he recognizes him and if he thinks it was."

Well, I would say within 30 minutes or an hour he was flashed back on the screen and he said to me, "Daddy, that is the fellow that was sitting next to me out on the rifle range."

Mr. LIEBELER. So that you, independently of your son, first noticed the resemblance between Oswald.

Dr. WOOD. And mentioned it to my wife.

Mr. LIEBELER. And Sterling was not in your presence at that time?

Dr. WOOD. No, sir; he was not in the room.

Mr. LIEBELER. Then later he came into the room, saw Oswald's picture on the television, and said to you that that was the guy that was out at the rifle range that previous Saturday, is that correct?

Dr. WOOD. Yes.

=====================================================================

Now!

One might need to take a few shots in order to sight the scope, but anyone who has been through and completed the USMC basic rifle marksmanship course does not require just a whole lot of practice to hit man-sized targets at ranges of less than 100 yards. (62 yards/81 yards/& 98 yard shots)

Which gives rise to exactly WHY? anyone actually fell for and believed "THE SHOT THAT MISSED"

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk...eport_0068a.htm

Save Ammo----Chunk Rocks, sticks, and empty brass.* (Used to include empty "C"-Ration Cans but this ammo was taken away with the advent of the new rations. Although the new box of rice could be a quite deadly missile if properly flung)

USMC Motto for all targets at less than 100 yards range.

Along with the demise of the C rats and invention of the MRE, we lost any hope of flavor. The five fingers of death, commonly called hot dogs by the funny guys who developed the MRE, could be considered a lethal weapon at less than 100 yards. Then again at less than 100 yards you could simply used the enclosed chicklet gum and fling them with the spork.

Mike

[Thomas H. Purvis]

I would prefer to see some actual data. You are entitled to your opinion. If making these shots in the timing required with virtually no damage to the limo was so simple, why hasn't it been demonstrated?

It was! On November 22, 1963, in Dealy Plaza.

But since you apparantly did not believe or understand this example then it is most unlikely that you would believe or accept any other examples irrelevant as to who completed the exercise.

"Given his personality traits?" Please. This is a man who refused to fight back when Carlos Bruinguier assaulted him in NOLA. Which 'personality trait' are you referencing?

Never been to any form of "Play", huh?

Certainly hope that you are not also a believer that it was also mere coincidence that someone was more or less "hiding" in the adjacent store window and photographing this event.

In addition, nobody saw LHO with the M/C in Dallas. It was apparently in Mrs. Paine's garage, while LHO was in Oak Cliff most of the time. He didn't drive or have access to a car, so how would he transport the M/C to rifle practice in a remote location without being observed?

Since you, from all appearance, have no military service time, then it is most unlikely that you would believe that in 1963, one could walk all over town as well as ride a bus with a fully concealed military rifle and few would have even given notice to anything out of the ordinary.

But! You would not believe that either!

[Mike Williams]

Pamela,

Great question! Why has there not been a demonstration of the shooting event within the time frame replicating no limo damage?

Simple, because the time frame is the issue. The rifle tests try to jam the shots into an impossible 5.6 seconds. Not to difficult to figure that one out. Now what happens when one extends the shooting to 8-12 seconds?

The very basic concepts of marksmanship are sight alignment (knowing how to line up the sights) Sight picture (knowing how to reference your quarry in those sights) and then the simple Concept of B.R.A.S.S. Breath relax aim stop and squeeze.

For shots of this nature, less than 100 yards, constant practice would hardly be required.

Mike

[Pamela Brown]

Pamela,

Great question! Why has there not been a demonstration of the shooting event within the time frame replicating no limo damage?

Simple, because the time frame is the issue. The rifle tests try to jam the shots into an impossible 5.6 seconds. Not to difficult to figure that one out. Now what happens when one extends the shooting to 8-12 seconds?

The very basic concepts of marksmanship are sight alignment (knowing how to line up the sights) Sight picture (knowing how to reference your quarry in those sights) and then the simple Concept of B.R.A.S.S. Breath relax aim stop and squeeze.

For shots of this nature, less than 100 yards, constant practice would hardly be required.

If the shots could have been duplicated in the correct amount of time with no damage to the vehicle, it would have been done long ago. That it was not done successfully for the WCR, much less since then, gives credence to the difficulty of pulling it off, and also opens the door to the possibility that the shooters were trained snipers, not LHO who was afraid of shooting rabbits.

[Mike Williams]

Pamela,

If the shooters were trained snipers, this would have been a one shot event. Oswald would have been fatally framed(if not actually guilty), and we would not even be discussing it.

What IS the correct amount of time? Yes it has been done by a man named Donahue during the CBS recreation, but that is beside the point. I suspect the reason more have not completed this event in the official time, is because the official time is flawed. The official timing of the shots was built from necessity, and not evidence.

[David G. Healy]

Pamela,

If the shooters were trained snipers, this would have been a one shot event. Oswald would have been fatally framed(if not actually guilty), and we would not even be discussing it.

What IS the correct amount of time? Yes it has been done by a man named Donahue during the CBS recreation, but that is beside the point. I suspect the reason more have not completed this event in the official time, is because the official time is flawed. The official timing of the shots was built from necessity, and not evidence.

re-writing assassination related evidence Sgt. Williams? Gott'a open close that bolt, re-acquire the target and pull the trigger twice, in 5.6 seconds.

What is not beside the point is simple, more than one known military sniper with "confirmed" kills says Oswald gig is impossible to re-create. Frankly if the Lone Nut-WCR purists thought they could re-create Oswald's shooting feat, they would of. We'd of seen the the results YEARS ago...

You're selling 8-12 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) for the JFK assassination shooting feat. Do you have a cite for that (I'm curious)? Reminds me of Gerald Ford moving an entrance wound 4 inches. oopsee

Edited August 15, 2008 by David G. Healy

[Mike Williams]

Pamela,

If the shooters were trained snipers, this would have been a one shot event. Oswald would have been fatally framed(if not actually guilty), and we would not even be discussing it.

What IS the correct amount of time? Yes it has been done by a man named Donahue during the CBS recreation, but that is beside the point. I suspect the reason more have not completed this event in the official time, is because the official time is flawed. The official timing of the shots was built from necessity, and not evidence.

re-writing assassination related evidence Sgt. Williams? Gott'a open close that bolt, re-acquire the target and pull the trigger twice, in 5.6 seconds.

What is not beside the point is simple, more than one known military sniper with "confirmed" kills says Oswald gig is impossible to re-create. Frankly if the Lone Nut-WCR purists thought they could re-create Oswald's shooting feat, they would of. We'd of seen the the results YEARS ago...

You're selling 8-12 seconds (instead of 5.6 seconds) for the JFK assassination shooting feat. Do you have a cite for that (I'm curious)? Reminds me of Gerald Ford moving an entrance wound 4 inches. oopsee

David,

Perhaps you can offer some proof that the shooting event DID happen in 5.6 seconds? There is only one shot that can be determined to a precise time. Of course it would not, and does not surprise me that you would be fooled by the WC time line. I expected as much from someone of your obvious knowledge.

I would suspect the reason many state it is impossible, is because they are holding to the old time frame. You are aware that this feat actually has been recreated aren't you?

One good thing to note though, it is actually good to see you say something that relates to the assassination, and not just yammering away about nothing at all.

Mike

[David G. Healy]

Pamela,

If the shooters were trained snipers, this would have been a one shot event. Oswald would have been fatally framed(if not actually guilty), and we would not even be discussing it.

What IS the correct amount of time? Yes it has been done by a man named Donahue during the CBS recreation, but that is beside the point. I suspect the reason more have not completed this event in the official time, is because the official time is flawed. The official timing of the shots was built from necessity, and not evidence.

re-writing assassination related evidence Sgt. Williams? Gotta' open & close the bolt, re-acquire the target and pull the trigger, twice, in 5.6 seconds.

What is not beside the point is simple, more than one known military sniper with "confirmed" kills says the alleged Oswald gig is impossible to re-create in fact, and recreation. Frankly if the Lone Nut-WCR purists thought they could re-create Oswald's shooting feat, they would of by know. We'd of seen the the results YEARS ago...

How many of the top NRA Expert Marksman tried this feat and failed? Forget the CBS nonsense....

What I see here is simple Sgt. Williams, you're attempring to sell 8-12 second scenario (instead of 5.6 seconds). If the WCR seems uncomfortable for some lone Nutters, let's invent a new time frame, that about sum it up? Do you have a cite for this 8-12 second scenario (I'm curious)? Reminds me of Gerald Ford moving an entrance wound 4 inches. oopsee

David,

Perhaps you can offer some proof that the shooting event DID happen in 5.6 seconds? There is only one shot that can be determined to a precise time. Of course it would not, and does not surprise me that you would be fooled by the WC time line. I expected as much from someone of your obvious knowledge.

I would suspect the reason many state it is impossible, is because they are holding to the old time frame. You are aware that this feat actually has been recreated aren't you?

One good thing to note though, it is actually good to see you say something that relates to the assassination, and not just yammering away about nothing at all.

Mike

Old time-frame? WCR "OLD" time frame? Explain to us when the WCR was amended with a "NEW" time frame, Sgt. Williams. And Sgt Williams, have you heard of the Zapruder film?

In the spirit of this thread Sgt. Williams, In simple terms, so even non-veterans AND military vet's can understand, IMHO, I forgot more about this assassination than you'll probably ever know... and Marine Sgt Williams unless you can deliver a factual accounting regarding any recreation that duplicated JFK's wounds, in the time alloted per the WCR, including proper heights, distances and wind conditions (not to mention the stress of shooter unknowables). I certainly hope you're not pinning all you hopes on the Australian connection regarding the "gaffer-tape shooting platform blowing around in the wind" re-creation, are you marine Sgt Williams?

What I see here is simple Sgt. Williams, you're attempting to sell a new 8-12 second scenario (instead of 5.6 seconds). Its long been apparent to us if that IF WCR findings seem a bit uncomfortable for certain Lone Nutters, they simply prefer to change or invent a new time frame, does that sum up your position? Do you have a cite for this 8-12 second scenario (I'm curious)? Reminds me of Gerald Ford moving an entrance wound 4 inches. oopse

Your experience shooting the manual bolt operated MC, please?

D. Healy

Edited August 15, 2008 by David G. Healy