Questions for Gary Mack

[Jim Root]

Jim;

Whoever told you that a projectile (bullet) which enters with sufficient velocity to have left metallic residue embedded into the bone of the leg upon impact, only had sufficient velocity to penetrate to a shallow depth,----------------lied!

Thomas:

Only going from the testimony of the doctor that treated Connally. If he were dishonest in his testimony he should be considered another of the conspirators. If he were honest in his testimony then the bullet only penetrated to a shallow depth:

Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. VI

Testimony of Dr. T. Shires George

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter.

And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh ?

Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the, thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of' the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. Specter.

Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. Specter.

What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter---one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.

Mr. Specter.

A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Thomas:

From the testimony of the doctor it seems that a 1/10th grain fragment (rather small) penetrated the femur but that the actual bullet barely "penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound." If Dr. Shires lied I suppose you could add another name to the total group of conspirators needed to pull the SBT "story" off. Interesting to note that Shires was not "pre-placed" at the hospital prepared for this emergency but had to be called in to deal with the thigh wound.

Jim Root

[Mike Williams]

Jim;

Whoever told you that a projectile (bullet) which enters with sufficient velocity to have left metallic residue embedded into the bone of the leg upon impact, only had sufficient velocity to penetrate to a shallow depth,----------------lied!

Thomas:

Only going from the testimony of the doctor that treated Connally. If he were dishonest in his testimony he should be considered another of the conspirators. If he were honest in his testimony then the bullet only penetrated to a shallow depth:

Warren Commission Hearings: Vol. VI

Testimony of Dr. T. Shires George

The testimony of Dr. George T. Shires was taken at 4:35 p.m., on March 23, 1964, at Parkland Memorial Hospital, Dallas, Tex. by Mr. Arlen Specter, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.

Mr. Specter.

And what did you observe as to the wound on the thigh ?

Dr. SHIRES. The wound on the thigh was a peculiar one. There was a 1 cm. punctate missile wound over the junction of the middle and lower third of the leg and the medial aspect of the, thigh. The peculiarity came in that the X-rays of the left leg showed only a very small 1 mm. bullet fragment imbedded in the femur of' the left leg. Upon exploration of this wound, the other peculiarity was that there was very little soft tissue damage, less than one would expect from an entrance wound of a centimeter in diameter, which was seen on the skin. So, it appeared, therefore, that the skin wound was either a tangential wound or that a larger fragment had penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound.

Mr. SPECTER. What size fragment was there in the Governor's leg at that time?

Dr. SHIRES. We recovered none. The small one that was seen was on X-ray and it was still in the femur and being that small, with no tissue damage after the debridement, it was thought inadvisable to remove this small fragment.

Mr. Specter.

Is that fragment in the bone itself at the present time?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Mr. Specter.

What would your best estimate be as to the size of that fragment?

Dr. SHIRES. One millimeter in diameter---one to two.

Mr. SPECTER. Would you have any estimate as to how much that might weigh in grains?

Dr. SHIRES. In grains---a fraction of a grain, maybe, a tenth of a grain---very small.

Mr. Specter.

A tenth of one grain?

Dr. SHIRES. Yes.

Thomas:

From the testimony of the doctor it seems that a 1/10th grain fragment (rather small) penetrated the femur but that the actual bullet barely "penetrated or stopped in the skin and had subsequently fallen out of the entrance wound." If Dr. Shires lied I suppose you could add another name to the total group of conspirators needed to pull the SBT "story" off. Interesting to note that Shires was not "pre-placed" at the hospital prepared for this emergency but had to be called in to deal with the thigh wound.

Jim Root

Jim,

In the x-rays it does appear that the fragment is near the bone. This is rather deceiving because of the perspective of the x-ray. This was discussed on one of the forums a short time ago, and I believe John Hunt said that he had looked at the original x-rays and it was apparent that the fragment was just under the skin.

Of course that is Johns opinion, however, in light of other evidence I would have to give that some serious weight.

Heres why. If that projectile were traveling at such diminished velocity that it barely penetrated the skin, then it would be an impossibility for it to have "cast off" a fragment that was traveling at a higher velocity than the projectile itself. Now consider this fragment weighted less than a grain and would therefore lack penetrating mass, it would have to make up for this mass with velocity, thus requiring it to be traveling much faster than the projectile.

Now taking the .1 grain fragment, and the average velocity of 2182 feet per second, we can assess that the energy of this fragment was 1.057 ftlbs. In other words, it had just enough energy to bury in the skin.

Mike

[Jim Root]

Jim,

In the x-rays it does appear that the fragment is near the bone. This is rather deceiving because of the perspective of the x-ray. This was discussed on one of the forums a short time ago, and I believe John Hunt said that he had looked at the original x-rays and it was apparent that the fragment was just under the skin.

Of course that is Johns opinion, however, in light of other evidence I would have to give that some serious weight.

Heres why. If that projectile were traveling at such diminished velocity that it barely penetrated the skin, then it would be an impossibility for it to have "cast off" a fragment that was traveling at a higher velocity than the projectile itself. Now consider this fragment weighted less than a grain and would therefore lack penetrating mass, it would have to make up for this mass with velocity, thus requiring it to be traveling much faster than the projectile.

Now taking the .1 grain fragment, and the average velocity of 2182 feet per second, we can assess that the energy of this fragment was 1.057 ftlbs. In other words, it had just enough energy to bury in the skin.

Mike

Mike

While no expert by any means I do belive the physics would work the opposite of what you suggest.

Imagine if you will a dart and a softball. The softball obviously has a greater mass but when both are tossed at the same speed the dart will penetrate a dart board while the softball will bounce off. It seems logical that the smaller fragment moving at the same speed would, in fact, be more likely to penetrate further than the larger object traveling at the same speed.

If this is the case the doctors words seem to make sense leaving us with a missing bullet. Once again, if CE399 were to be planted by the conspirators they would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where that bullet had come from.

I find that fact very difficult to accept!

And if the whole SBT were to be the crux of the case against Oswald, then once again the conspirators would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where the "pristine" bullet came from.

The planning would have been extrodinary.....get the rifle, fire and recover a bullet that would exactly match a bullet fired from the rifle "planted" on the 6th floor and make sure that Gov. Connally would have a penetration that would match a wound created by a bullet that had not been mutilated, that would only leave a shallow wound in the skin, not penetrating into the soft tissue and would, in the doctors opinion, have easily fallen out only to be recovered by someone other than the doctor who arrived on the scene to late to have recovered the bullet before the one was found on the gurney that was so necessary to the conspirators.

I would appreciate it if someone could explain Connally's "magic" wound!

Jim Root

[Mike Williams]

Jim,

In the x-rays it does appear that the fragment is near the bone. This is rather deceiving because of the perspective of the x-ray. This was discussed on one of the forums a short time ago, and I believe John Hunt said that he had looked at the original x-rays and it was apparent that the fragment was just under the skin.

Of course that is Johns opinion, however, in light of other evidence I would have to give that some serious weight.

Heres why. If that projectile were traveling at such diminished velocity that it barely penetrated the skin, then it would be an impossibility for it to have "cast off" a fragment that was traveling at a higher velocity than the projectile itself. Now consider this fragment weighted less than a grain and would therefore lack penetrating mass, it would have to make up for this mass with velocity, thus requiring it to be traveling much faster than the projectile.

Now taking the .1 grain fragment, and the average velocity of 2182 feet per second, we can assess that the energy of this fragment was 1.057 ftlbs. In other words, it had just enough energy to bury in the skin.

On another front, I also have a hard time accepting 399 as a plant or some subversive conspiratorial poo.

Mike

Mike

While no expert by any means I do belive the physics would work the opposite of what you suggest.

Imagine if you will a dart and a softball. The softball obviously has a greater mass but when both are tossed at the same speed the dart will penetrate a dart board while the softball will bounce off. It seems logical that the smaller fragment moving at the same speed would, in fact, be more likely to penetrate further than the larger object traveling at the same speed.

If this is the case the doctors words seem to make sense leaving us with a missing bullet. Once again, if CE399 were to be planted by the conspirators they would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where that bullet had come from.

I find that fact very difficult to accept!

And if the whole SBT were to be the crux of the case against Oswald, then once again the conspirators would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where the "pristine" bullet came from.

The planning would have been extrodinary.....get the rifle, fire and recover a bullet that would exactly match a bullet fired from the rifle "planted" on the 6th floor and make sure that Gov. Connally would have a penetration that would match a wound created by a bullet that had not been mutilated, that would only leave a shallow wound in the skin, not penetrating into the soft tissue and would, in the doctors opinion, have easily fallen out only to be recovered by someone other than the doctor who arrived on the scene to late to have recovered the bullet before the one was found on the gurney that was so necessary to the conspirators.

I would appreciate it if someone could explain Connally's "magic" wound!

Jim Root

Jim,

Actually since we have the weight of the fragment, and we have the max velocity that the fragment could be traveling at, we can arrive at the impact energy of said fragment. Which does work out to just over 1 ft lb. Its a matter of weight vs velocity. Since the fragment has little weight it would require much velocity to penetrate to any significant depth.

Now in the matter of the bullet in whole, it required about 30 ft lbs of energy to penetrate 1" into human tissue. Since our fragment is much lighter it has to make up for mass with velocity, thus it would have to travel much faster than the bullet to penetrate to an equal depth.

I believe the analogy you make is a bit askew. But take this example. To test the characteristics of a fragments flight go out on your front porch and see how far you can throw a Dorito, or better yet imagine the velocity required to make said Dorito stick in your dartboard!

Mike

Edited August 14, 2008 by Mike Williams

[Jim Root]

Mike

Enjoying the intelligent discussion.

My thoughts explained in a different manner. It would take much less energy for a needle to penetrate skin that it would take for a 6.5 mm piece of dowling.

Jim Root

[Mike Williams]

Mike

Enjoying the intelligent discussion.

My thoughts explained in a different manner. It would take much less energy for a needle to penetrate skin that it would take for a 6.5 mm piece of dowling.

Jim Root

Jim,

I would of course have to agree with that. However since our needle is much lighter it requires more velocity to achieve that energy.

The Carcano bullet weighing in at 161 grains, at the tested velocity of 2182 feet per second imparts 1701 ft lbs of energy. It is this combination of mass and speed that give it its penetrating quality. (having a good sectional density and a fair ballistic coefficent helps too!).

We also know that the fragment of .1 grains, can not possibly be traveling at more than 2182 feet per second, and in fact since it is being cast off of a slowed projectile it has to be traveling slower.

Now its smallish shape would give it the advantage in penetrating ability, but its lack of mass is its downfall. The lack of mass would not allow the smallish projectile to retain velocity and energy would be depleted very very quickly.

Here would be a prime example, and an easy lab test.

Take a roast and place it on the ground. Then take two darts, one that weights .1 grains, and one that weighs 161 grains.

Dropping them from the same height at the same time would replicate identical velocities, as with our fragment and our bullet.

Our dart with the 161 grain weight will penetrate much further.

Now I can almost hear you saying that this is an unfair test because our projectile and fragment are not tipped darts. However the mass penetration ability of the projectiles is defined by their mass and velocity. This could be refined to a much better analogy if we knew the size and surface area of the fragment in question, but over all it is mass that sustains penetration ability perpetuated by velocity.

The darts ability to maintain velocity due to mass is what causes the lowered depletion rate of the energy, keeps the projectile moving and penetrating deeper.

Mike

[Jim Root]

Mike

Once again very interesting. I appreciate your willingness to enlighten me. Please allow me to ponder further.

An automobiles collides with a wall which stops the vehicle abrubtly from continuing in a straight line. If the driver of the auto did not secure themself in a seat belt the unattached person now becomes a projectile themselves and continues the forward motion until acted upon by its own impact upon something or until the energy that has been transferred from the now stopped vehicle is spent propelling the person beyond the impact of the vehicle It the structural integrity of the wall has been broken (the skin surface) and a less dense substance beyond the wall is all that is available to stop the now forward moving human pojectile, that second pojectile, while much lighter than the vehicle it came from and while moving at a slower speed could travel beyond the plane of the broken down wall. Unfortunately I whitnessed the results of this example to oftern while working coroners calls for a mortuary while in college.

Now according to our good doctor the fragment that penetrated to the femur was indeed tiny compared to the back (not pointed portion) of the bullet that he believe to have caused the shallow skin wound. I might liken this to the point of a foil versus the edge of a sabre (blunt slashing versus pinpoint puctures). Once again less mass deeper penetration with less energy because the energy is focused on such a small point.

Another example would be the military application of the shaped charge. Less energy directed on a smaller point creating greater penetration. Bigger is not always better, nor does it always cause more damage or, in this case, greater penetration.

During the Vietnam War the US military went to a smaller caliber weapon when it was realized that less mass could do greater damage via increased penetration than the larger calibers. The velocity of a smaller mass became the key element which provided desired penetration.

Jim Root

[Thomas H. Purvis]

Jim,

In the x-rays it does appear that the fragment is near the bone. This is rather deceiving because of the perspective of the x-ray. This was discussed on one of the forums a short time ago, and I believe John Hunt said that he had looked at the original x-rays and it was apparent that the fragment was just under the skin.

Of course that is Johns opinion, however, in light of other evidence I would have to give that some serious weight.

Heres why. If that projectile were traveling at such diminished velocity that it barely penetrated the skin, then it would be an impossibility for it to have "cast off" a fragment that was traveling at a higher velocity than the projectile itself. Now consider this fragment weighted less than a grain and would therefore lack penetrating mass, it would have to make up for this mass with velocity, thus requiring it to be traveling much faster than the projectile.

Now taking the .1 grain fragment, and the average velocity of 2182 feet per second, we can assess that the energy of this fragment was 1.057 ftlbs. In other words, it had just enough energy to bury in the skin.

Mike

Mike

While no expert by any means I do belive the physics would work the opposite of what you suggest.

Imagine if you will a dart and a softball. The softball obviously has a greater mass but when both are tossed at the same speed the dart will penetrate a dart board while the softball will bounce off. It seems logical that the smaller fragment moving at the same speed would, in fact, be more likely to penetrate further than the larger object traveling at the same speed.

If this is the case the doctors words seem to make sense leaving us with a missing bullet. Once again, if CE399 were to be planted by the conspirators they would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where that bullet had come from.

I find that fact very difficult to accept!

And if the whole SBT were to be the crux of the case against Oswald, then once again the conspirators would have had to have known in advance that Connally would have a thigh wound that would explain where the "pristine" bullet came from.

The planning would have been extrodinary.....get the rifle, fire and recover a bullet that would exactly match a bullet fired from the rifle "planted" on the 6th floor and make sure that Gov. Connally would have a penetration that would match a wound created by a bullet that had not been mutilated, that would only leave a shallow wound in the skin, not penetrating into the soft tissue and would, in the doctors opinion, have easily fallen out only to be recovered by someone other than the doctor who arrived on the scene to late to have recovered the bullet before the one was found on the gurney that was so necessary to the conspirators.

I would appreciate it if someone could explain Connally's "magic" wound!

Jim Root

If this is the case the doctors words seem to make sense leaving us with a missing bullet.

You should be beginning to feel quite warm about now as you are getting extremely close to the one and only true "Magic Bullet"!

"Politicians, not unlike Magicians, can make things disappear!

[Mike Williams]

Mike

Once again very interesting. I appreciate your willingness to enlighten me. Please allow me to ponder further.

An automobiles collides with a wall which stops the vehicle abrubtly from continuing in a straight line. If the driver of the auto did not secure themself in a seat belt the unattached person now becomes a projectile themselves and continues the forward motion until acted upon by its own impact upon something or until the energy that has been transferred from the now stopped vehicle is spent propelling the person beyond the impact of the vehicle It the structural integrity of the wall has been broken (the skin surface) and a less dense substance beyond the wall is all that is available to stop the now forward moving human pojectile, that second pojectile, while much lighter than the vehicle it came from and while moving at a slower speed could travel beyond the plane of the broken down wall. Unfortunately I whitnessed the results of this example to oftern while working coroners calls for a mortuary while in college.

Now according to our good doctor the fragment that penetrated to the femur was indeed tiny compared to the back (not pointed portion) of the bullet that he believe to have caused the shallow skin wound. I might liken this to the point of a foil versus the edge of a sabre (blunt slashing versus pinpoint puctures). Once again less mass deeper penetration with less energy because the energy is focused on such a small point.

Another example would be the military application of the shaped charge. Less energy directed on a smaller point creating greater penetration. Bigger is not always better, nor does it always cause more damage or, in this case, greater penetration.

During the Vietnam War the US military went to a smaller caliber weapon when it was realized that less mass could do greater damage via increased penetration than the larger calibers. The velocity of a smaller mass became the key element which provided desired penetration.

Jim Root

Jim,

And yet the second projectile (human) can not exceed the speed of the initial impact of the first projectile (auto).

Now to compare apples to apples, lets look at some wound ballistics, in particular the head of JFK.

While the mass of the projectile made a complete pass through the matter, and exited, fragments did not. They remained in the head. These fragments were traveling at the same speed as the projectile, but lacked the penetration capacity because their weight failed to maintain velocity.

There are even projectile that are made to fragment and not penetrate. Glaser safety rounds would be one example but not the best example.

Pre fragmented bullets are designed to come apart and yet remain in the body, they are effective because they fragment and open many wound channels to facilitate bleeding.

If we had 2 bullets that were the same weight at the same velocity, and one was a full metal jacket, and one was prefragmented, the FMJ would far out penetrated the PF simply because it retains mass. The pre fragmented bullet would likely not exit, but would open many more wound channels and facilitate exsanguination.

Now the interesting part is that because all the parts of the pf stay inside the body, their sum total of kinetic energy is transfered to the target, where as the passing FMJ imparts far less energy transfered.

The same rules apply to our fragment, its smallish size and lack of mass is likened to the parts of a prefragmented bullet which lack depth of penetration due to their loss of mass and compromised inertia.

Mike

[Jim Root]

Mike

Yet, in the case of the Connolly wound we have a fragment that travels deeper than the wound caused by the shell. No penetrating track created by the larger bullet....just the fragment that penetrated further than the bullet itself.

So here we are with a fragment in a place that you seem to suggest it can not get to....yet it is there none the less.

I follow your argument but it does not seem to support the evidence.

Jim Root

[Duke Lane]

Although I have long suspicioned that Robert Frazier has always known more than he has told, I have yet to find any of that testimony in his specific field to be incorrect....

But Tom: In the immortal words of Postal Inspector Harry Holmes, are you a trained suspicioner?

[William Kelly]

I agree with Bill- why does Gary Mack's opinion matter so much? So many of us on these forums continue to cite this guy as the ultimate expert on everything related to the assassination. While I certaijnly don't question his knowledge, I most certainly do question his almost complete support of the official story.

Don,

I'm not picking on Gary, I'm just saying why argue over what medical evidence has been shown to be inadmissible in court and just ask why there hasn't been a forensic autopsy, which is routinely done on less suspicious deaths.

I don't know that Gary completely supports the official story, as he's pushed for further examinatino of the acoustical evidence and opening of the records.

While he is ubiquious and can be irritating sometmes, he always responds to my questions quickly and accurately and has positioned himself in a good position as archiviest of the 6th Floor.

He's much more forthcoming than other archivists, like those at ONI, the SS and WHCA.

BK

[Mike Williams]

Mike

Yet, in the case of the Connolly wound we have a fragment that travels deeper than the wound caused by the shell. No penetrating track created by the larger bullet....just the fragment that penetrated further than the bullet itself.

So here we are with a fragment in a place that you seem to suggest it can not get to....yet it is there none the less.

I follow your argument but it does not seem to support the evidence.

Jim Root

Which wound are you writing about? The Thigh?

Gary Murr and John Hunt have posted about this over at Lancer. They have both handled the x-rays, and both confirm that the fragment was just under the skin. The HSCA concluded the same thing.

Dr. Shires is simply in error here, as he was about the fragments remaining in Connallys chest.

Mike

Edited August 15, 2008 by Mike Williams

[Wim Dankbaar]

Mike Williams wrote:

Wim,

The SBT is physically possible. There is nothing in the ballistics that says it could not happen.

So this means you accept that the bullet penetrated Kennedy, entered in his high back and exited through his throat? It means you don't accept the evidence that the back wound was probed during the autopsy and found to be a shallow wound with no exit, right?

Given your past track record with comments, I dont blame you for stopping further comments. Your comments matter little as your discretion has been defined. Are you ever going to get back around to refuting anything I said about your boy Jimmy?

You know, I have other things to do as well than following and commenting on your popshots. I believe I have refuted everything you said about Files, but if you're unsatisfied, you're welcome to restate the specific points you are desiring answers for.

Wim now wander on back to the play dough pack and let the big people talk ok?

Have you inflated yourself to the "big people" now? Based on what? Maybe you should start with updating your biography information accordingly? "I am very new to the study of the assassination of John Kennedy, and find all areas of study interesting. "

Wim

[Mike Williams]

Mike Williams wrote:

Wim,

The SBT is physically possible. There is nothing in the ballistics that says it could not happen.

So this means you accept that the bullet penetrated Kennedy, entered in his high back and exited through his throat? It means you don't accept the evidence that the back wound was probed during the autopsy and found to be a shallow wound with no exit, right?

Given your past track record with comments, I dont blame you for stopping further comments. Your comments matter little as your discretion has been defined. Are you ever going to get back around to refuting anything I said about your boy Jimmy?

You know, I have other things to do as well than following and commenting on your popshots. I believe I have refuted everything you said about Files, but if you're unsatisfied, you're welcome to restate the specific points you are desiring answers for.

Wim now wander on back to the play dough pack and let the big people talk ok?

Have you inflated yourself to the "big people" now? Based on what? Maybe you should start with updating your biography information accordingly? "I am very new to the study of the assassination of John Kennedy, and find all areas of study interesting. "

Wim

Wim,

Just because I do not believe the back wound transited JFK does not mean that it could not have. Do try and keep up.

You have not resolved any of the issues I presented to you, you simply brush them off with some nonsensical crap. Pretty much what I expected of you.

My bio as well as my knowledge of the case will stand, thanks.

Mike