Jump to content
The Education Forum

The Sling


Recommended Posts

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

Edited by William Kelly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

Check out CE 139, photo 3 -

Stock of rifle, with sling clamp.

Also note the initials carved in stock - VEDR ?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

What to make of this, if anything?

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

BK

xx

Edited by William Kelly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

Check out CE 139, photo 3 -

Stock of rifle, with sling clamp.

Also note the initials carved in stock - VEDR ?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

What to make of this, if anything?

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

BK

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

Check out CE 139, photo 3 -

Stock of rifle, with sling clamp.

Also note the initials carved in stock - VEDR ?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

What to make of this, if anything?

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

BK

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

Bill,

When teaching to fire the M-16 one removes the sling at the butt stock and creates a loop that goes around the forearm, the sling is then adjusted to the length that allows the rifle to be LOCKED or snapped in to the shoulder.

A different method in hunting rifles is to wrap the sling around your arm, with it fastened at both ends. We actually see this demonstrated in "Enemy at the Gate"

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

Check out CE 139, photo 3 -

Stock of rifle, with sling clamp.

Also note the initials carved in stock - VEDR ?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

What to make of this, if anything?

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

BK

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

Bill,

When teaching to fire the M-16 one removes the sling at the butt stock and creates a loop that goes around the forearm, the sling is then adjusted to the length that allows the rifle to be LOCKED or snapped in to the shoulder.

A different method in hunting rifles is to wrap the sling around your arm, with it fastened at both ends. We actually see this demonstrated in "Enemy at the Gate"

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

The "sling" as well as the pistol holster were from an WWII U.S. Army Air Corps shoulder holster assembly which was issued primarily to pilots and air crewmen.

And although I have managed to secure one complete assembly, as well as various seperate parts at some gun shows, it is unusual in these days to find the complete shoulder holster assembly as many have taken the pistol holster off.

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle

Quite correct, and quite obviously of little value in securing a steady position shot.

Mr. EISENBERG - Do you feel that this is--that this sling was originally manufactured as a rifle sling?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir; it is not in any way similar to a normal sling for a rifle. It appears to be a sling from some carrying case, camera bag, musical instrument strap, or something of that nature.

We have made attempts to identify it, with no success.

Mr. EISENBERG - Apart from the addition of this sling and mounting of the telescopic sight, have any modifications been made in the C-139 rifle--- in the Commission Exhibit 139 rifle?

Mr. FRAZIER - No, sir.

Mr. McCLOY - You would suggest, I gather, Mr. Frazier, that this is a home made sling?

Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; it appears to have been cut to length by inserting this strap, or this sling, on the rifle, and then trimming off the excess ends of the two straps to fit.

Mr. McCLOY - How would that broad patch on the sling--how would that be used, in your judgment, in firing the rifle? Would it be wrapped around the base of your---

Mr. FRAZIER - I find it very difficult to use the rifle with a sling at all. The sling is too short, actually, to do more than put your arm through it.

For all things there is a reason!

However, in order to determine that reason, one must sometimes crawl up completely out of the box and then slap oneself in the face in order to clear the "tunnel vision" and knock the blinders off.

Tom

NG-24924686

RA-24924686

All of which aids one in seeing out of the box.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike and Tom,

Your imput appreciated.

So its not an Air Force sidearm holsters, its a pre-1947 US Army Air Force shoulder strap for a pistol holder.

Has anybody bothered to look at this closer?

Is there a manufacturer's number or anything that would distinguish it from any other similar strap?

It had to come from somewhere.

If it wasn't used to sling the rifle over your shoulder and across the back, then it had to have another use, as it just wasn't added for looks.

BK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike and Tom,

Your imput appreciated.

So its not an Air Force sidearm holsters, its a pre-1947 US Army Air Force shoulder strap for a pistol holder.

Has anybody bothered to look at this closer?

Is there a manufacturer's number or anything that would distinguish it from any other similar strap?

It had to come from somewhere.

If it wasn't used to sling the rifle over your shoulder and across the back, then it had to have another use, as it just wasn't added for looks.

BK

Bill;

Look in Lattimer's book. If recalled correctly, he is the one who identified the holster and sling.

There is no know record as to where LHO obtained it.

At some point in time between the backyard photo's in which he had a rope, and the TSDB, he secured the sling.

Since he had the pistol holster in the backyard photo at the time, it is unknown if he also had the leather sling as well.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks Mike and Tom,

Your imput appreciated.

So its not an Air Force sidearm holsters, its a pre-1947 US Army Air Force shoulder strap for a pistol holder.

Has anybody bothered to look at this closer?

Is there a manufacturer's number or anything that would distinguish it from any other similar strap?

It had to come from somewhere.

If it wasn't used to sling the rifle over your shoulder and across the back, then it had to have another use, as it just wasn't added for looks.

BK

Bill;

Look in Lattimer's book. If recalled correctly, he is the one who identified the holster and sling.

There is no know record as to where LHO obtained it.

At some point in time between the backyard photo's in which he had a rope, and the TSDB, he secured the sling.

Since he had the pistol holster in the backyard photo at the time, it is unknown if he also had the leather sling as well.

http://cgi.ebay.com/Vintage-Bucheimer-US-S...bayphotohosting

This may be it, just can not recall exactly.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks,

Key word Bucheimer.

Making fine leather goods since 1884. And stamped ID #s on each item.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/375532/site_id/1#import

......And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about. ......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260278561261&ih=016&category=4721&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DD%252BC%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D5

.....Shoulder Holster set made by Bucheimer. It is in great condition and as far as I can tell it is complete. The number stamped on the back is 7791527......

Here's More:

http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=56144

I'm reading this month's selection of the Hard Case Crime book club, "The Murderer Vine." The main character of the book mentions that he carries his combat magnum in a "Bucheimer holster". Was Bucheimer a big company or more of a one man operation like Chic Gaylord?

IIRC Bucheimer holsters was based in or somewhere near Frederick, Maryland. I believe it was more than a one-man operation but nowhere as big as Bianchi or Safariland.

Their stuff was considered fairly top-shelf in the '50s and '60s but then Bianchi and Safariland and some others started coming up with new innovative designs incorporating steel shanks and such. Bucheimer kind of fell behind in leadership but continued to make good quality, sort of "second line" retro-type holsters that found a certain steady market.

I dunno exactly when they went out of business--'80s or '90s, I'd guess--but I've heard of at least two different holstermakers claiming to have some of the original Bucheimer patterns and/or tooling. One of these is now out of the holster business, too, the tooling resold again, though to whom I'm not sure.

_________________

Well, they say this place is evil

But that ain't why I stay....

--Warren Zevon, "Join Me in L.A.," Warren Zevon, Warner Asylum 1976

So the TSBD MC has a Bucheimer shoulder holster strap as a sling that has an id number that can possibly be traced.

BK

Edited by William Kelly
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Thanks,

Key word Bucheimer.

Making fine leather goods since 1884. And stamped ID #s on each item.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/375532/site_id/1#import

......And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about. ......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260278561261&ih=016&category=4721&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DD%252BC%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D5

.....Shoulder Holster set made by Bucheimer. It is in great condition and as far as I can tell it is complete. The number stamped on the back is 7791527......

Here's More:

http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=56144

I'm reading this month's selection of the Hard Case Crime book club, "The Murderer Vine." The main character of the book mentions that he carries his combat magnum in a "Bucheimer holster". Was Bucheimer a big company or more of a one man operation like Chic Gaylord?

IIRC Bucheimer holsters was based in or somewhere near Frederick, Maryland. I believe it was more than a one-man operation but nowhere as big as Bianchi or Safariland.

Their stuff was considered fairly top-shelf in the '50s and '60s but then Bianchi and Safariland and some others started coming up with new innovative designs incorporating steel shanks and such. Bucheimer kind of fell behind in leadership but continued to make good quality, sort of "second line" retro-type holsters that found a certain steady market.

I dunno exactly when they went out of business--'80s or '90s, I'd guess--but I've heard of at least two different holstermakers claiming to have some of the original Bucheimer patterns and/or tooling. One of these is now out of the holster business, too, the tooling resold again, though to whom I'm not sure.

_________________

Well, they say this place is evil

But that ain't why I stay....

--Warren Zevon, "Join Me in L.A.," Warren Zevon, Warner Asylum 1976

So the TSBD MC has a Bucheimer shoulder holster strap as a sling that has an id number that can possibly be traced.

BK

It has the military stamp in it and that is how Dr. Lattimer managed to locate the manufacturer, whoever it was.

If someone else does not have and come forward with that information, on my next "shed diving" trip I will attempt to find the exact information.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...gst&q=Sling

And the answer is: To carry the weapon!

To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.

If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope

sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.

When recovered at the TSDB, the rifle had a leather sling which also included a

shoulder pad. This sling has been determined to have been military issue (Army

Air Corps/AF) for a shoulder holster for carrying a pistol.

Any researcher can attend enough gun shown until such time as he will find one

of these for sale as I have. There are quite a few of the identical shoulder

straps with pistol case still out there in military surplus.

However, this is not the point.

"Military minded" persons would "know" that the shoulder pad should be located

up near the barrell/sling swivel were one to carry the rifle in standard "sling

arms" position.

Now, as recovered, C2766/CE# 149 had the should pad installed near the middle

to lower one-half of the rifle, nearer to the stock.

Those of us who were sufficiently ignorant enough to exit perfectly good

aircraft, happen to know that the rifle is carred in an upside down version of

"sling arms" in order to prevent the protruding barrell from becoming entangled

in the parachute suspension lines.

This also happens to be true for those select few who were beyond

ignorant(extremely stupid) and jumped in Military Free Fall parachuting with

combat equipment.

The shoulder pad as mounted on C2766/CE# 139 is done so in such a manner that

the weapon can be carried at an upside down version of "sling arms".

Due to the location of this pad, this weapon could have been easily carried

with the butt of the stock under the armpit and the rifle down by the side of

the body/leg.

By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around

the streets and never have been seen.

Try it, you may like it!

Hey Chad, give us a picture on your site.

Tom P

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

Q. I am just asking now that you do remember, what was the circumstance? was it in a closet? Was he holding it? What was the first time you currently remember seeing the rifle, any rifle?

A. Well, the things flash in my memory right now of him going out after dard (dark) wearing a raincoat and he told me that he was going to practice in some shooting range. I don't mean that was the first time as I see it flashing right now.

Q. The time you saw him in the raincoat, was that before you moved to New Orleans or after?

A. I believe it was in Dallas because it was quite hot outside. I mean it was very silly for somebody to put a raincoat over your body in such hot weather.

Q. I was not going to rain that day?

Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?

A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.

Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.

A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.

Q. And that is what he did when he went to bring the rifle back in?

A. He was wearing the same raincoat.

===============================================================

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

And, anyone who has either:

Done combat equipment jumps or walked guard duty in the rain while wearing a poncho, should recognize the same.

There are some advantages to having once been of the "enlisted" persuasion!

P.S. LHO frequently had to walk guard duty in Japan (where it rains a whole lot), with the old "riot gun"/shotgun, which we virtually always carried in the Weak-Side/aka upside down sling arms position.

You know, there just may be another of those "Epiphany's" here as well!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...gst&q=Sling

And the answer is: To carry the weapon!

To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.

If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope

sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.

When recovered at the TSDB, the rifle had a leather sling which also included a

shoulder pad. This sling has been determined to have been military issue (Army

Air Corps/AF) for a shoulder holster for carrying a pistol.

Any researcher can attend enough gun shown until such time as he will find one

of these for sale as I have. There are quite a few of the identical shoulder

straps with pistol case still out there in military surplus.

However, this is not the point.

"Military minded" persons would "know" that the shoulder pad should be located

up near the barrell/sling swivel were one to carry the rifle in standard "sling

arms" position.

Now, as recovered, C2766/CE# 149 had the should pad installed near the middle

to lower one-half of the rifle, nearer to the stock.

Those of us who were sufficiently ignorant enough to exit perfectly good

aircraft, happen to know that the rifle is carred in an upside down version of

"sling arms" in order to prevent the protruding barrell from becoming entangled

in the parachute suspension lines.

This also happens to be true for those select few who were beyond

ignorant(extremely stupid) and jumped in Military Free Fall parachuting with

combat equipment.

The shoulder pad as mounted on C2766/CE# 139 is done so in such a manner that

the weapon can be carried at an upside down version of "sling arms".

Due to the location of this pad, this weapon could have been easily carried

with the butt of the stock under the armpit and the rifle down by the side of

the body/leg.

By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around

the streets and never have been seen.

Try it, you may like it!

Hey Chad, give us a picture on your site.

Tom P

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

Q. I am just asking now that you do remember, what was the circumstance? was it in a closet? Was he holding it? What was the first time you currently remember seeing the rifle, any rifle?

A. Well, the things flash in my memory right now of him going out after dard (dark) wearing a raincoat and he told me that he was going to practice in some shooting range. I don't mean that was the first time as I see it flashing right now.

Q. The time you saw him in the raincoat, was that before you moved to New Orleans or after?

A. I believe it was in Dallas because it was quite hot outside. I mean it was very silly for somebody to put a raincoat over your body in such hot weather.

Q. I was not going to rain that day?

Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?

A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.

Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.

A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.

Q. And that is what he did when he went to bring the rifle back in?

A. He was wearing the same raincoat.

===============================================================

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

And, anyone who has either:

Done combat equipment jumps or walked guard duty in the rain while wearing a poncho, should recognize the same.

There are some advantages to having once been of the "enlisted" persuasion!

P.S. LHO frequently had to walk guard duty in Japan (where it rains a whole lot), with the old "riot gun"/shotgun, which we virtually always carried in the Weak-Side/aka upside down sling arms position.

You know, there just may be another of those "Epiphany's" here as well!

Thanks for that link Tom. Very handy re: Sling.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

I would like to find a similar link to the USMC Handbook that Oswald gave to Bringuier, which CB recently sold over the internet for six figures. Did that deal go through? And where can one find a standard copy of that manual?

As for this USMC Marksmanship manual, the sling - "When properly attached to the rifle, the sling provides maximum stability for the weapon and helps reduce the effects of the rifle's recoil. Also used for individual weapons transport."

You say that the sling was set to be carried upside down - as the manual puts it - "Weak side sling arms transport" with the muzzle down, which is used during inclement weather and for long distances or when both hands needed.

"Weapons transport - Procedure used to carry the rifle for long periods of time when one or both hands are needed for other work."

I like the idea of Oswald moving the rifle about using this method, but I don't recall a raincoat being among his belongings, though Marina mentions one. Was it a London Fog?

There is also the problem of getting on and off the Getaway Bus, and sitting down with the rifle under the raincoat.

But the sling ISN'T just used to Carry the Rifle, as you say.

The sling is also used to provide stability and reduce recoil.

This manual shows how the sling is used in different ways to provide stability for the shooter - the Hasty Sling and the Loop Sling. Which one did the Sixth Floor Sniper use?

"Hasty Sling Application The hasty sling is used in all firing positions. The hasty sling is advantageour in combat because it can be acquired quickly and it provides added stability to the rifle. The same sling setting can be used for all firing postions. If properly adjusted, the hasty sling supports the weight of the weapon, provides stability for the rifle, and reduces the effects of the rifle's recoil. When using the hasty sling, controlled muscle tension is applied to offer resistance against the sling, enabling the rifle sights to be held steady."

"Loop Sling Application The loop sling provides the greatest amount of stability during firing. This stability allows the Marine to perfect marksmanship fundamentals. The loop sling takes longer to don or remove than a hasty sling. Therefore, it has limited combat applications and is best used where stability of hold is needed for a precision or long-range shot. The loop sling is used in the prone, sitting or kneeling positon."

The figures under 5-50 5-51 and 5-52 show "high kneeling position with hasty sling."

Another question for the marksmen. We must assume that the Sixth Floor Sniper used the high kneeling position since the window sill was only a few inches from the floor.

But did the sniper use the hasty sling or loop sling and why?

In addition, once kneeling and with a secure sling, did the sniper used the Point of Aim method, the Tracking method or the Ambush method in the course of "engaging moving target"?

Other definations from the USMC marksmanship manual:

"battlesight zero (BSO) - The elevation and windage seetting required to engage point targets from 0-300 yards/meters under ideal weather conditions (i.e. no wind)."

"zeroing - The process used to adjust the rifle sights that cuse it to shoot to point of aim at a desired range."

"stability of hold - The ability to acquire a stable position and to hold the rifle steady for any given rifle position."

"aiming point - The aiming point is the precise point where the tip of the front sight post is placed in relation to the target."

"alibi - Any condition caused by the weapon, ammunition, or range operation that causes the shooter not to have an equal opportunity to complete a string of fire as all other shooters on the range."

BK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The sling on the MC rifle attributed to LHO, is a subject that I've had some interest in, yet can't seem to find much on.

From what I understand, the sling did not come with the rifle from Klines, but was added on afterwards.

I understand it has been identified as a standard issue holster for a USAF sidearm, though that's from memory and I can't back it up with docs, yet.

In any case, I was wondering if anybody has done any research into the sling, and what it is and where it came from?

Thanks,

BK

http://groups.google.com/group/alt.assassi...gst&q=Sling

And the answer is: To carry the weapon!

To date, several questions related to the C2766/CE# 139 have been asked.

If recalled correctly, the photo of LHO with the alledged weapon shows a rope

sling similar to that of John Wilkes Booth.

When recovered at the TSDB, the rifle had a leather sling which also included a

shoulder pad. This sling has been determined to have been military issue (Army

Air Corps/AF) for a shoulder holster for carrying a pistol.

Any researcher can attend enough gun shown until such time as he will find one

of these for sale as I have. There are quite a few of the identical shoulder

straps with pistol case still out there in military surplus.

However, this is not the point.

"Military minded" persons would "know" that the shoulder pad should be located

up near the barrell/sling swivel were one to carry the rifle in standard "sling

arms" position.

Now, as recovered, C2766/CE# 149 had the should pad installed near the middle

to lower one-half of the rifle, nearer to the stock.

Those of us who were sufficiently ignorant enough to exit perfectly good

aircraft, happen to know that the rifle is carred in an upside down version of

"sling arms" in order to prevent the protruding barrell from becoming entangled

in the parachute suspension lines.

This also happens to be true for those select few who were beyond

ignorant(extremely stupid) and jumped in Military Free Fall parachuting with

combat equipment.

The shoulder pad as mounted on C2766/CE# 139 is done so in such a manner that

the weapon can be carried at an upside down version of "sling arms".

Due to the location of this pad, this weapon could have been easily carried

with the butt of the stock under the armpit and the rifle down by the side of

the body/leg.

By wearing a raincoat and/or trench coat, this weapon could be carried around

the streets and never have been seen.

Try it, you may like it!

Hey Chad, give us a picture on your site.

Tom P

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/russ/jfkinfo4/jfk12/marinade.htm

Q. I am just asking now that you do remember, what was the circumstance? was it in a closet? Was he holding it? What was the first time you currently remember seeing the rifle, any rifle?

A. Well, the things flash in my memory right now of him going out after dard (dark) wearing a raincoat and he told me that he was going to practice in some shooting range. I don't mean that was the first time as I see it flashing right now.

Q. The time you saw him in the raincoat, was that before you moved to New Orleans or after?

A. I believe it was in Dallas because it was quite hot outside. I mean it was very silly for somebody to put a raincoat over your body in such hot weather.

Q. I was not going to rain that day?

Q. When you were living with Lee at this time, did he ever take the gun out to go target shooting with that as well as the rifle?

A. I recall only the rifle because it was quite bulky and he had to hide it under his raincoat but I do not recall the gun at all.

Q. When he brought the rifle back after he had hid it in the bushes from General Walker's house, what did he carry it in? He didn't just carry the rifle over his shoulder.

A. No; he didn't, but I told you that he was wearing this raincoat.

Q. And that is what he did when he went to bring the rifle back in?

A. He was wearing the same raincoat.

===============================================================

Any good "Marine" should recognize why the pad on a sling is moved closer to the base of the stock than it is to the muzzle of the weapon.

"Weak-Side Sling Arms"

Figure 3-23

aka upside down sling arms.

And, anyone who has either:

Done combat equipment jumps or walked guard duty in the rain while wearing a poncho, should recognize the same.

There are some advantages to having once been of the "enlisted" persuasion!

P.S. LHO frequently had to walk guard duty in Japan (where it rains a whole lot), with the old "riot gun"/shotgun, which we virtually always carried in the Weak-Side/aka upside down sling arms position.

You know, there just may be another of those "Epiphany's" here as well!

Thanks for that link Tom. Very handy re: Sling.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/2533059/USMC-Rif...smanship-Manual

I would like to find a similar link to the USMC Handbook that Oswald gave to Bringuier, which CB recently sold over the internet for six figures. Did that deal go through? And where can one find a standard copy of that manual?

As for this USMC Marksmanship manual, the sling - "When properly attached to the rifle, the sling provides maximum stability for the weapon and helps reduce the effects of the rifle's recoil. Also used for individual weapons transport."

You say that the sling was set to be carried upside down - as the manual puts it - "Weak side sling arms transport" with the muzzle down, which is used during inclement weather and for long distances or when both hands needed.

"Weapons transport - Procedure used to carry the rifle for long periods of time when one or both hands are needed for other work."

I like the idea of Oswald moving the rifle about using this method, but I don't recall a raincoat being among his belongings, though Marina mentions one. Was it a London Fog?

There is also the problem of getting on and off the Getaway Bus, and sitting down with the rifle under the raincoat.

But the sling ISN'T just used to Carry the Rifle, as you say.

The sling is also used to provide stability and reduce recoil.

This manual shows how the sling is used in different ways to provide stability for the shooter - the Hasty Sling and the Loop Sling. Which one did the Sixth Floor Sniper use?

"Hasty Sling Application The hasty sling is used in all firing positions. The hasty sling is advantageour in combat because it can be acquired quickly and it provides added stability to the rifle. The same sling setting can be used for all firing postions. If properly adjusted, the hasty sling supports the weight of the weapon, provides stability for the rifle, and reduces the effects of the rifle's recoil. When using the hasty sling, controlled muscle tension is applied to offer resistance against the sling, enabling the rifle sights to be held steady."

"Loop Sling Application The loop sling provides the greatest amount of stability during firing. This stability allows the Marine to perfect marksmanship fundamentals. The loop sling takes longer to don or remove than a hasty sling. Therefore, it has limited combat applications and is best used where stability of hold is needed for a precision or long-range shot. The loop sling is used in the prone, sitting or kneeling positon."

The figures under 5-50 5-51 and 5-52 show "high kneeling position with hasty sling."

Another question for the marksmen. We must assume that the Sixth Floor Sniper used the high kneeling position since the window sill was only a few inches from the floor.

But did the sniper use the hasty sling or loop sling and why?

In addition, once kneeling and with a secure sling, did the sniper used the Point of Aim method, the Tracking method or the Ambush method in the course of "engaging moving target"?

Other definations from the USMC marksmanship manual:

"battlesight zero (BSO) - The elevation and windage seetting required to engage point targets from 0-300 yards/meters under ideal weather conditions (i.e. no wind)."

"zeroing - The process used to adjust the rifle sights that cuse it to shoot to point of aim at a desired range."

"stability of hold - The ability to acquire a stable position and to hold the rifle steady for any given rifle position."

"aiming point - The aiming point is the precise point where the tip of the front sight post is placed in relation to the target."

"alibi - Any condition caused by the weapon, ammunition, or range operation that causes the shooter not to have an equal opportunity to complete a string of fire as all other shooters on the range."

BK

===============================================================================

I would like to find a similar link to the USMC Handbook that Oswald gave to Bringuier, which CB recently sold over the internet for six figures. Did that deal go through? And where can one find a standard copy of that manual?

There exists several locations on the Internet where one can view the entire old USMC Handbook.

A lot of USMC personnel kept these books as well, and in event that one knows of someone who served during that period (do not recall when the manual was re-published/changed), either they or someone they know would most probably have one.

Not unlike many old USA handbooks; TM's; (Technical Manual's) etc; the USMC standard handbook can be found frequently at gun shows as well as some of the older Military Surplus Stores.

As for this USMC Marksmanship manual, the sling - "When properly attached to the rifle, the sling provides maximum stability for the weapon and helps reduce the effects of the rifle's recoil.

Seldom, if ever, is the sling utilized as a hold position in general rifle marksmanship.

The single best time that it is of any usage is when one has to fire from the totally unsupported standing (off-hand) position.

In event that the sling is utilized properly, then it can assist in taking some of the weight of the weapon and transfering that weight to the sling, and thereafter to the shoulder, or assist in steadiness of the forward arm.

Thus, the shooter is not having to carry the entire weight of a rifle with his forward hand position, and/or worry with how much a cross wind may affect the lateral stability of holding the weapon.

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/sling_0612/

Most advertisements you see for rifle slings actually are for carrying straps, which are not the same thing. A carrying strap allows you to tote your rifle on your shoulder or across your back so that you don't have to bear its heavy weight in your arms. While it's very handy, a carrying strap may cause you to miss shots since you become lazy and have your rifle on your shoulder, rather than in your hands when you need it. A sling is designed to brace yourself for steadier, more accurate shooting

http://fieldandstream.blogs.com/gunnut/200...he_real_sl.html

While looking over the photos of the Marine Corps M40A3 sniper rifle, I was horrified to see that the sling swivels were attached to the side of the stock, rather than the bottom, and assumed that the Corps had now relegated the Model 1907 shooting sling to use merely as a carrying strap. Teach your grandmother to suck eggs! A Marine sniper rifle without a real, working sling is unthinkable.

-------------------------------------------

With that little bit, there are few persons who have actually practiced sufficiently in "sling shooting" positions to be that proficient.

And, when one has an almost perfectly designed "bench rest" position made from stacked boxes of books from which to shoot, and operating in a rapid-fire situation with a bolt action rifle, then usage of a sling becomes exactly what it was intended for:

To carry the weapon!

I like the idea of Oswald moving the rifle about using this method, but I don't recall a raincoat being among his belongings, though Marina mentions one. Was it a London Fog?

Standard USMC issue which was quite long, virtually identical to the US Army issue.

http://www.olive-drab.com/od_soldiers_clot...ats_ponchos.php

http://cgi.ebay.com/USMC-Rain-Coat-Id'...080830199r39373

http://7alpha.freeyellow.com/raincoat.JPG

=============================================

LHO walked Guard Duty in Japan with the standard issue 12 gauge "riotgun", which was easily carried under the raincoat in the "Weak-side" sling arms position.

As, most anyone who ever served in an enlisted status should be aware of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Riot_shotgun

And, until it was deemed illegal to do so, many, many, "Point and Flank" security patrol persons carried the Riotgun loaded with double-ought buckshot in Vietnam.

In Jungle undergrowth, one stands a much better chance of a "first shot hit" when he fills the underbrush with buckshot.

Another question for the marksmen. We must assume that the Sixth Floor Sniper used the high kneeling position since the window sill was only a few inches from the floor.

But did the sniper use the hasty sling or loop sling and why?

Personally, I would assume that those who actually carry the "Sniper" qualification, are quite disgusted with those who seem to be of the impression that shots fired from slant distances of approximately 62 yards; 88 yards; and 98 yards, required any "Sniper" skills and/or qualifications.

In fact, even most basic USMC and/or US Army recruits, would consider these distances as childs play/aka pellet gun/Boy Scout shooting distances.

Reading too many of them "conspiracy" books about the shot difficulty tends to make one frequently "overemphasize" what is in fact quite simple.

There is also the problem of getting on and off the Getaway Bus, and sitting down with the rifle under the raincoat.

Comfortably adjusted, the Model 91/38, at Weak-Side sling arms, has the end of the muzzle/barrel located at the center of the joint of my knee on the back side of the leg.

However, and of course, the base of the stock protrudes out considerably at the back of my shoulder.

In that carry configuration, one can readily sit in most chairs and/or seats without the end of the muzzle striking the floor.

Anyone who is used to carrying a weapon in this position, (such as those of us who actually at one time had to walk Guard Duty, are quite accustomed to walking around for several hours at a time with the weapon in this position.

And, in fact, it was one of the most comfortable of positions on which to make an extended forced march while carrying a weapon.

EPIPHANY TIME:

NOW! In event that one will disassemble the weapon and shall we say, carry the barrel and receiver assembly around in our lap in some form of shorter "paper bag", this reduces the length of that portion carried across the back in the Weak-Side Sling Arms position, by some 5 1/4 inches in length for the Model 91/38.

This also make it considerably easier to carry the stock of the weapon (only) in the Weak-Side sling arms position.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom mentions that the sling on the rifle discovered at the TSBD on 11/22/63 is not on the rifle in the photo taken at the Neeley Street Apt. backyard photos.

Those photos show a different sling, a white rope like contraption.

Can anyone post an enlargement of that sling?

Thanks,

BK

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It is my opinion that it does not. Commission Exhibit 133A has such a small portion of the sling showing that it--you cannot establish that it is or is not the same sling that is presently on the,

However, Commission Exhibit 133B does show the sling, since it shows the bottom of the rifle, and I find it to be different from the sling that is presently on the rifle. It has the appearance of being a piece of rope that is tied at both ends, rather than a leather sling, and it is my opinion that it is a different sling than is presently on the rifle.

Mr. EISENBERG. Just again a homemade simulated sling, is that it?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. It has that appearance, yes.

Mr. EISENBERG. You testified that you have a much smaller view of the sling, or what passes for a sling, on 133A than on 133B. Is the sling or simulated sling on 133A, that portion of it which is visible, consistent with the sling on 133B?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it is entirely consistent.

Mr. EISENBERG. Also looks like a piece of rope, is that it?

Mr. SHANEYFELT. Yes; it has that appearance.

=================================================

Dr. Lattimer discusses the "rope" and also shows a photo of a (Spencer) if recalled correctly which John Wilkes Boothe had and which also had a "rope" sling which was similar.

This discussion in Dr. Lattimer's book is also where he revealed the manufacturer of the sling.

And, although Dr. Lattimer was quite apparantly a "mouthpiece" for JEH & Company, his book is nevertheless a worthwhile addition to knowledge on the subject matter.

No other person that I am aware has documented the weighing of 100 Carcano bullets in order to determine an "average weight".

Too bad that someone did not also have him present the "mean" weight.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...