Jump to content
The Education Forum

The Sling


Recommended Posts

Tom writes:

However! I can state with a small amount of authority that it would also be most foolish for any "shooter" to rely upon usage of a carrying strap for shooting stability when one in fact has a built in "bench rest" of cardboard boxes and window sill ledges.

And, P.S. For those who know no better, the usage of the sling is primarily for when one fires from a totally unsupported position such as the standing position. Reading too many books and watching too many "RAMBO" movies can lead to one actually believing that the sling is of that much assistance in shooting. It is actually a complete hinderance when operating a bolt action rifle and attempting to rapid fire the weapon.

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

e. Sling Adjustment The sling helps hold the weapon steady

without muscular effort. The more the muscles are used the harder it is

to hold the weapon steady. The sling tends to bind the parts of the body

used in aiming into a rigid bone brace, requiring less effort than would be

necessary if no sling were used. When properly adjusted, the sling permits

part of the recoil of the rifle to reabsorbed by the nonfiring arm and hand,

removing recoil from the firing shoulder.

(1) The sling consists of two different lengths of leather straps joined

together by a metal D ring (Figure 2-8). The longer strap is connected to

the sling swivel on the rear stud on the forearm of the rifle. The shorter

strap is attached to the sling swivel on the buttstock of the rifle. There are

two leather loops on the long strap known as keepers. The keepers are

used to adjust the tension on the sling. The frogs are hooks that are used

to adjust the length of the sling.

(2) To adjust the sling, the sniper disconnects the sling from the

buttstock swivel. Then, he adjusts the length of the metal D ring that joins

the two halves of the sling. He then makes sure it is even with the comb

of the stock when attaching the sling to the front swivel (Figure 2-9).

(3) The sniper adjusts the length of the sling by placing the frog on the long strap

of the sling in the 4th to the 7th set of adjustment holes on the rounded end of the

long strap that goes through the sling swivel on the forearm (Figure 2-10). (4) After adjusting the length, the sniper places the weapon on his firing hip and supports the

weapon with his firing arm. The sniper turns the sling away from him 90 degrees and inserts his nonfiring arm.

(5) The sniper slides the loop in the large section of the sling up the nonfiring arm until it is just below the armpit (Figure 2-11). He then slides both leather keepers down the sling until they bind the loop snugly round the nonfiring arm.

(6) The sniper moves his nonfiring hand from the outside of the sling to the inside of

the sling between the rifle and the sling. The sniper then grasps the forearm of the weapon, just behind the sling swivel with his nonfiring hand. He forces it outward and away from his body with the nonfiring hand (Figure 2-12).

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

And, I would guess that not unlike the facts of the assassination of JFK, some persons have not read enough to know the

difference between a "shooting sling" and a rifle "carrying strap".

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/sling_0612/

Most advertisements you see for rifle slings actually are for carrying straps, which are not the same thing. A carrying strap allows you to tote your rifle on your shoulder or across your back so that you don't have to bear its heavy weight in your arms. While it's very handy, a carrying strap may cause you to miss shots since you become lazy and have your rifle on your shoulder, rather than in your hands when you need it. A sling is designed to brace yourself for steadier, more accurate shooting. Like snipers, hunters can benefit from slings, not carrying straps.

Editors Note: With slight modifications, this column was excerpted from the author's book, THE ULTIMATE SNIPER (Paladin Press, 1993;

=========================================

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #4

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

=============================================================================

Don't like what an obviously qualified USMC trained sniper has to say on the subject either, I see.

====================================================

Although I have little doubts that some "RAMBO", somewheres, has demonstrated his lack of marksmanship knowledge and actually shown up at a rifle range and utilized the sling while also firing from an excellent "bench rest" position, most who have been to the rifle range more than a couple of times recognize the benefit of the bench rest position over any other.

Furthermore, "Sling Shooting" is an art of it's own, and anyone who is unfamiliar with the techniques involved is asking

for trouble if they think that they can merely attach a "shooting sling" and immediatedly improve their accuracy.

So Bill, in event that you do not like the "CORRECT" answers, then by all means be my guest and dive back off down

into that rabbit hole.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 77
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Tom writes:

However! I can state with a small amount of authority that it would also be most foolish for any "shooter" to rely upon usage of a carrying strap for shooting stability when one in fact has a built in "bench rest" of cardboard boxes and window sill ledges.

And, P.S. For those who know no better, the usage of the sling is primarily for when one fires from a totally unsupported position such as the standing position. Reading too many books and watching too many "RAMBO" movies can lead to one actually believing that the sling is of that much assistance in shooting. It is actually a complete hinderance when operating a bolt action rifle and attempting to rapid fire the weapon.

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

e. Sling Adjustment The sling helps hold the weapon steady

without muscular effort. The more the muscles are used the harder it is

to hold the weapon steady. The sling tends to bind the parts of the body

used in aiming into a rigid bone brace, requiring less effort than would be

necessary if no sling were used. When properly adjusted, the sling permits

part of the recoil of the rifle to reabsorbed by the nonfiring arm and hand,

removing recoil from the firing shoulder.

(1) The sling consists of two different lengths of leather straps joined

together by a metal D ring (Figure 2-8). The longer strap is connected to

the sling swivel on the rear stud on the forearm of the rifle. The shorter

strap is attached to the sling swivel on the buttstock of the rifle. There are

two leather loops on the long strap known as keepers. The keepers are

used to adjust the tension on the sling. The frogs are hooks that are used

to adjust the length of the sling.

(2) To adjust the sling, the sniper disconnects the sling from the

buttstock swivel. Then, he adjusts the length of the metal D ring that joins

the two halves of the sling. He then makes sure it is even with the comb

of the stock when attaching the sling to the front swivel (Figure 2-9).

(3) The sniper adjusts the length of the sling by placing the frog on the long strap

of the sling in the 4th to the 7th set of adjustment holes on the rounded end of the

long strap that goes through the sling swivel on the forearm (Figure 2-10). (4) After adjusting the length, the sniper places the weapon on his firing hip and supports the

weapon with his firing arm. The sniper turns the sling away from him 90 degrees and inserts his nonfiring arm.

(5) The sniper slides the loop in the large section of the sling up the nonfiring arm until it is just below the armpit (Figure 2-11). He then slides both leather keepers down the sling until they bind the loop snugly round the nonfiring arm.

(6) The sniper moves his nonfiring hand from the outside of the sling to the inside of

the sling between the rifle and the sling. The sniper then grasps the forearm of the weapon, just behind the sling swivel with his nonfiring hand. He forces it outward and away from his body with the nonfiring hand (Figure 2-12).

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

And, I would guess that not unlike the facts of the assassination of JFK, some persons have not read enough to know the

difference between a "shooting sling" and a rifle "carrying strap".

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/sling_0612/

Most advertisements you see for rifle slings actually are for carrying straps, which are not the same thing. A carrying strap allows you to tote your rifle on your shoulder or across your back so that you don't have to bear its heavy weight in your arms. While it's very handy, a carrying strap may cause you to miss shots since you become lazy and have your rifle on your shoulder, rather than in your hands when you need it. A sling is designed to brace yourself for steadier, more accurate shooting. Like snipers, hunters can benefit from slings, not carrying straps.

Editors Note: With slight modifications, this column was excerpted from the author's book, THE ULTIMATE SNIPER (Paladin Press, 1993;

=========================================

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #4

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

=============================================================================

Don't like what an obviously qualified USMC trained sniper has to say on the subject either, I see.

====================================================

Although I have little doubts that some "RAMBO", somewheres, has demonstrated his lack of marksmanship knowledge and actually shown up at a rifle range and utilized the sling while also firing from an excellent "bench rest" position, most who have been to the rifle range more than a couple of times recognize the benefit of the bench rest position over any other.

Furthermore, "Sling Shooting" is an art of it's own, and anyone who is unfamiliar with the techniques involved is asking

for trouble if they think that they can merely attach a "shooting sling" and immediatedly improve their accuracy.

So Bill, in event that you do not like the "CORRECT" answers, then by all means be my guest and dive back off down

into that rabbit hole.

Tom, rather than crap like Rambo, what about Saving Private Ryan. There's a different period weponry and tactics et.c. including the right handed clock toer sniper firing right handed and cocking with his left, Very fast and accurate in target accuisition, shooting and rechambering. Have you seen it? Is it correct and if not, how? I know it's just a movie, but some of the. reported as advised by army personell, I'm more interested in the weaponry and how it is portrayed as being used, particular the rapid US Sniper clocktower sequence at the end. How realistic is it? I aven't got a clue. (yes, Tim. very funny.)

oops what I do got is a smallkboard and little light which I suppose means too lazy to get the large ergonomic pluggedin and an optical mose instead of the pad and switching the lihjt on, however it interferes with viewing AvP' extended version.

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ask two questions - what is the strap on the rifle and where did it come from?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

The Warren Report says:

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

The answer to question #1 is:

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

Tom: "It is the waist-band strap, to include that portion which runs over and across the shoulder, from a shoulder holster, combined into a single strap, which was formerly from a U.S. Army Air Corps issue to Pilots (&crewmen), up to and even through the Korean conflict in which it was now the U.S. Air Force, but due to remaining stocks, continued to be issued through the early 50's. A virtually identical versions were utilized by US Navy as well as USMC pilots."

It is also identified as a Bucheimer.

Making fine leather goods since 1884. And stamped ID #s on each item.

http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=56144

I'm reading this month's selection of the Hard Case Crime book club, "The Murderer Vine." The main character of the book mentions that he carries his combat magnum in a "Bucheimer holster". Was Bucheimer a big company or more of a one man operation like Chic Gaylord?

IIRC Bucheimer holsters was based in or somewhere near Frederick, Maryland. I believe it was more than a one-man operation but nowhere as big as Bianchi or Safariland.

Their stuff was considered fairly top-shelf in the '50s and '60s but then Bianchi and Safariland and some others started coming up with new innovative designs incorporating steel shanks and such. Bucheimer kind of fell behind in leadership but continued to make good quality, sort of "second line" retro-type holsters that found a certain steady market.

I dunno exactly when they went out of business--'80s or '90s, I'd guess--but I've heard of at least two different holstermakers claiming to have some of the original Bucheimer patterns and/or tooling. One of these is now out of the holster business, too, the tooling resold again, though to whom I'm not sure.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/375532/site_id/1#import

......And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about. ......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260278561261&ih=016&category=4721&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DD%252BC%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D5

.....Shoulder Holster set made by Bucheimer. It is in great condition and as far as I can tell it is complete. The number stamped on the back is 7791527......

So now we know what it is.

How did it get from the Bucheimer Company to USA AF to the rifle that is alleged to have been used to kill the President of the United States?

And why was it attached, on purpose, for what reason or utility?

Was it used to carry the weapon?

Was it used to steady the aim of the sniper?

Was there another use?

First I want to respond to some of Tom's statements. First I'm glad Tom and Mike and others with a knowldge of such things have bothered to think about this and contribute to this thread.

Earlier on Tom mentions that "Actually! Were I able to fatually answer those questions, then it would serve to indicate that I was a "co-conspirator" associate of LHO!" - and indeed that cuts to the heart of what I am trying to get at.

Tom says on the one hand, "Now! In event that you reference exactly from where LHO obtained those bullets utilized in the assassination, then one is in about the same boat as with the rifle sling, and Tom is most certainly smart enough to recognize when a "trail" is so cold that it would take a major singular effort to find new information relative to the subject matter," before adding the note that,

"Oh yeah, and by the way! Soon, hopefully, there will be a new book out which deals with only the subject matter of the WCC ammo, and which will most assuredly shed some new light and information relative to this enigma."

Is there going to be a new book on the subject of the WCC ammo?

Gary Mack has also checked in to wonder why the answers to these questons are so important and to express the idea that there are certain things we will just never know.

Well I think we can determine where the sling came from and how it was used by the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, and regardless of how good a marksman he was.

Tom just wants to think of Lee Harvey Oswald, the hapless ex-Marine as being the Sixth Floor Sniper, despite him having an alibi. But even attributing the shots to Oswald, and him having a USMC training and good shooting record (according to Lattimore), Tom refuses to acknowldge Oswald or the Sixth Floor sniper was even a pro, and instead was a boyscout who made three shots anybody could have made.

He says, "Personally, I would assume that those who actually carry the "Sniper" qualification, are quite disgusted with those who seem to be of the impression that shots fired from slant distances of approximately 62 yards; 88 yards; and 98 yards, required any "Sniper" skills and/or qualifications. In fact, even most basic USMC and/or US Army recruits, would consider these distances as childs play/aka pellet gun/Boy Scout shooting distances. Reading too many of them "conspiracy" books about the shot difficulty tends to make one frequently "overemphasize" what is in fact quite simple."

Well we have the rifle, we have the sling, we have one bullet and three shells, and we know the Sixth Floor sniper sat in a kneeling position to take his shots.

Now did he use the sling to steady his shot?

If not, what was the purpose of the sling? To carry the rifle?

Again, where did the sling come from and why was it attached to the rifle?

BK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ask two questions - what is the strap on the rifle and where did it come from?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

The Warren Report says:

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

The answer to question #1 is:

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

Tom: "It is the waist-band strap, to include that portion which runs over and across the shoulder, from a shoulder holster, combined into a single strap, which was formerly from a U.S. Army Air Corps issue to Pilots (&crewmen), up to and even through the Korean conflict in which it was now the U.S. Air Force, but due to remaining stocks, continued to be issued through the early 50's. A virtually identical versions were utilized by US Navy as well as USMC pilots."

It is also identified as a Bucheimer.

Making fine leather goods since 1884. And stamped ID #s on each item.

http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=56144

I'm reading this month's selection of the Hard Case Crime book club, "The Murderer Vine." The main character of the book mentions that he carries his combat magnum in a "Bucheimer holster". Was Bucheimer a big company or more of a one man operation like Chic Gaylord?

IIRC Bucheimer holsters was based in or somewhere near Frederick, Maryland. I believe it was more than a one-man operation but nowhere as big as Bianchi or Safariland.

Their stuff was considered fairly top-shelf in the '50s and '60s but then Bianchi and Safariland and some others started coming up with new innovative designs incorporating steel shanks and such. Bucheimer kind of fell behind in leadership but continued to make good quality, sort of "second line" retro-type holsters that found a certain steady market.

I dunno exactly when they went out of business--'80s or '90s, I'd guess--but I've heard of at least two different holstermakers claiming to have some of the original Bucheimer patterns and/or tooling. One of these is now out of the holster business, too, the tooling resold again, though to whom I'm not sure.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/375532/site_id/1#import

......And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about. ......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260278561261&ih=016&category=4721&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DD%252BC%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D5

.....Shoulder Holster set made by Bucheimer. It is in great condition and as far as I can tell it is complete. The number stamped on the back is 7791527......

So now we know what it is.

How did it get from the Bucheimer Company to USA AF to the rifle that is alleged to have been used to kill the President of the United States?

And why was it attached, on purpose, for what reason or utility?

Was it used to carry the weapon?

Was it used to steady the aim of the sniper?

Was there another use?

First I want to respond to some of Tom's statements. First I'm glad Tom and Mike and others with a knowldge of such things have bothered to think about this and contribute to this thread.

Earlier on Tom mentions that "Actually! Were I able to fatually answer those questions, then it would serve to indicate that I was a "co-conspirator" associate of LHO!" - and indeed that cuts to the heart of what I am trying to get at.

Tom says on the one hand, "Now! In event that you reference exactly from where LHO obtained those bullets utilized in the assassination, then one is in about the same boat as with the rifle sling, and Tom is most certainly smart enough to recognize when a "trail" is so cold that it would take a major singular effort to find new information relative to the subject matter," before adding the note that,

"Oh yeah, and by the way! Soon, hopefully, there will be a new book out which deals with only the subject matter of the WCC ammo, and which will most assuredly shed some new light and information relative to this enigma."

Is there going to be a new book on the subject of the WCC ammo?

Gary Mack has also checked in to wonder why the answers to these questons are so important and to express the idea that there are certain things we will just never know.

Well I think we can determine where the sling came from and how it was used by the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, and regardless of how good a marksman he was.

Tom just wants to think of Lee Harvey Oswald, the hapless ex-Marine as being the Sixth Floor Sniper, despite him having an alibi. But even attributing the shots to Oswald, and him having a USMC training and good shooting record (according to Lattimore), Tom refuses to acknowldge Oswald or the Sixth Floor sniper was even a pro, and instead was a boyscout who made three shots anybody could have made.

He says, "Personally, I would assume that those who actually carry the "Sniper" qualification, are quite disgusted with those who seem to be of the impression that shots fired from slant distances of approximately 62 yards; 88 yards; and 98 yards, required any "Sniper" skills and/or qualifications. In fact, even most basic USMC and/or US Army recruits, would consider these distances as childs play/aka pellet gun/Boy Scout shooting distances. Reading too many of them "conspiracy" books about the shot difficulty tends to make one frequently "overemphasize" what is in fact quite simple."

Well we have the rifle, we have the sling, we have one bullet and three shells, and we know the Sixth Floor sniper sat in a kneeling position to take his shots.

Now did he use the sling to steady his shot?

If not, what was the purpose of the sling? To carry the rifle?

Again, where did the sling come from and why was it attached to the rifle?

BK

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom writes:

However! I can state with a small amount of authority that it would also be most foolish for any "shooter" to rely upon usage of a carrying strap for shooting stability when one in fact has a built in "bench rest" of cardboard boxes and window sill ledges.

And, P.S. For those who know no better, the usage of the sling is primarily for when one fires from a totally unsupported position such as the standing position. Reading too many books and watching too many "RAMBO" movies can lead to one actually believing that the sling is of that much assistance in shooting. It is actually a complete hinderance when operating a bolt action rifle and attempting to rapid fire the weapon.

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

e. Sling Adjustment The sling helps hold the weapon steady

without muscular effort. The more the muscles are used the harder it is

to hold the weapon steady. The sling tends to bind the parts of the body

used in aiming into a rigid bone brace, requiring less effort than would be

necessary if no sling were used. When properly adjusted, the sling permits

part of the recoil of the rifle to reabsorbed by the nonfiring arm and hand,

removing recoil from the firing shoulder.

(1) The sling consists of two different lengths of leather straps joined

together by a metal D ring (Figure 2-8). The longer strap is connected to

the sling swivel on the rear stud on the forearm of the rifle. The shorter

strap is attached to the sling swivel on the buttstock of the rifle. There are

two leather loops on the long strap known as keepers. The keepers are

used to adjust the tension on the sling. The frogs are hooks that are used

to adjust the length of the sling.

(2) To adjust the sling, the sniper disconnects the sling from the

buttstock swivel. Then, he adjusts the length of the metal D ring that joins

the two halves of the sling. He then makes sure it is even with the comb

of the stock when attaching the sling to the front swivel (Figure 2-9).

(3) The sniper adjusts the length of the sling by placing the frog on the long strap

of the sling in the 4th to the 7th set of adjustment holes on the rounded end of the

long strap that goes through the sling swivel on the forearm (Figure 2-10). (4) After adjusting the length, the sniper places the weapon on his firing hip and supports the

weapon with his firing arm. The sniper turns the sling away from him 90 degrees and inserts his nonfiring arm.

(5) The sniper slides the loop in the large section of the sling up the nonfiring arm until it is just below the armpit (Figure 2-11). He then slides both leather keepers down the sling until they bind the loop snugly round the nonfiring arm.

(6) The sniper moves his nonfiring hand from the outside of the sling to the inside of

the sling between the rifle and the sling. The sniper then grasps the forearm of the weapon, just behind the sling swivel with his nonfiring hand. He forces it outward and away from his body with the nonfiring hand (Figure 2-12).

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

And, I would guess that not unlike the facts of the assassination of JFK, some persons have not read enough to know the

difference between a "shooting sling" and a rifle "carrying strap".

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/sling_0612/

Most advertisements you see for rifle slings actually are for carrying straps, which are not the same thing. A carrying strap allows you to tote your rifle on your shoulder or across your back so that you don't have to bear its heavy weight in your arms. While it's very handy, a carrying strap may cause you to miss shots since you become lazy and have your rifle on your shoulder, rather than in your hands when you need it. A sling is designed to brace yourself for steadier, more accurate shooting. Like snipers, hunters can benefit from slings, not carrying straps.

Editors Note: With slight modifications, this column was excerpted from the author's book, THE ULTIMATE SNIPER (Paladin Press, 1993;

=========================================

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #4

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

=============================================================================

Don't like what an obviously qualified USMC trained sniper has to say on the subject either, I see.

====================================================

Although I have little doubts that some "RAMBO", somewheres, has demonstrated his lack of marksmanship knowledge and actually shown up at a rifle range and utilized the sling while also firing from an excellent "bench rest" position, most who have been to the rifle range more than a couple of times recognize the benefit of the bench rest position over any other.

Furthermore, "Sling Shooting" is an art of it's own, and anyone who is unfamiliar with the techniques involved is asking

for trouble if they think that they can merely attach a "shooting sling" and immediatedly improve their accuracy.

So Bill, in event that you do not like the "CORRECT" answers, then by all means be my guest and dive back off down

into that rabbit hole.

Tom, rather than crap like Rambo, what about Saving Private Ryan. There's a different period weponry and tactics et.c. including the right handed clock toer sniper firing right handed and cocking with his left, Very fast and accurate in target accuisition, shooting and rechambering. Have you seen it? Is it correct and if not, how? I know it's just a movie, but some of the. reported as advised by army personell, I'm more interested in the weaponry and how it is portrayed as being used, particular the rapid US Sniper clocktower sequence at the end. How realistic is it? I aven't got a clue. (yes, Tim. very funny.)

oops what I do got is a smallkboard and little light which I suppose means too lazy to get the large ergonomic pluggedin and an optical mose instead of the pad and switching the lihjt on, however it interferes with viewing AvP' extended version.

Have never encountered (either on the firing range or at a gun show) anyone attempting to imitatate "Private Ryan".

Lots and lots of "Rambo's" can always be found.

P.S. True SF Qualified personell trained with and fired multitudes of "old" antiquated weapons as this is what was

quite prevelant in many third-world nations.

Lastly, and personally, I have never taken as if having much of anything factual, Saving Private Ryan; RAMBO; The Green Berets; and/or Oliver Stone's "JFK". or the old TV series COMBAT.

They are movies, made for entertainment purposes only!

Of course, many who claim to be JFK researchers, have watched Stone's "JFK" some 13-plus times, and have yet to

tell the difference between fact and entertainment.

Certainly! I would like nothing better than some FACTUAL evidence which would serve to indicate exactly where LHO obtained the CARRYING STRAP which was installed onto the Model 91/38 Short Rifle.

Just as any information relative to exactly where he acquired the WCC Carcano ammo and clip may also be of some

informative value.

Either of which could lead to associations, etc; of LHO.

Liklihood of finding factual and verifiable information relative to this:----------------Virtually Zero.

Value of continuation of discussion relative to usage of the CARRYING STRAP in some SPECULATIVE shooting scenario in which the strap was utilized as a shooting stabilization sling:-------------Completely Zero!

What the CARRYING STRAP was made from is clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That the CARRYING STRAP was virtually useless in regards to performing as a shooting stabilization sling is

also clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That the CARRYING STRAP would have created an impairment to anyone who was attempting to utilized the strap as a shooting stabilization sling in a rapid-fire shooting scenario with the bolt action Carcano Rifle, is also clearly established

through verifiable evidence.

That a "Bench-Rest" firing position, such as that created by the shooter in having stacked the boxes of books against the

window ledge, as well as having a box of books on which to sit, is one of the most desirable and preferred shooting positions, is clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would even attempt to utilize the home-produced

CARRYING STRAP as an aid in shooting stabilization is completely asinine, as the STRAP is by far too short.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would attempt to utilized this CARRYING STRAP

as a shooting stabilization sling in a rapid-fire situation with a bolt action rifle, is completely asinine.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would attempt to define any of the three shots fired, of which the maximum distance was slilghtly less than 100 yards, as being "difficult" shots, is completely asinine.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/me...fleshooting.asp

Option A - Rifle Shooting (Modern Cartridge Type

Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a rifle from the benchrest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.

Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.

================================================================================

15 rounds at 50-feet in which the sum total impact point of all rounds can be convered by a quarter.

Looks like our Boy Scouts require better shooters for their "Marksmanship Badge", than was the shooting accuracy which came from the sixth floor window of the TSDB.

Probably just the big, bad ole US Government actually training "Child Assassin's".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom writes:

However! I can state with a small amount of authority that it would also be most foolish for any "shooter" to rely upon usage of a carrying strap for shooting stability when one in fact has a built in "bench rest" of cardboard boxes and window sill ledges.

And, P.S. For those who know no better, the usage of the sling is primarily for when one fires from a totally unsupported position such as the standing position. Reading too many books and watching too many "RAMBO" movies can lead to one actually believing that the sling is of that much assistance in shooting. It is actually a complete hinderance when operating a bolt action rifle and attempting to rapid fire the weapon.

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

e. Sling Adjustment The sling helps hold the weapon steady

without muscular effort. The more the muscles are used the harder it is

to hold the weapon steady. The sling tends to bind the parts of the body

used in aiming into a rigid bone brace, requiring less effort than would be

necessary if no sling were used. When properly adjusted, the sling permits

part of the recoil of the rifle to reabsorbed by the nonfiring arm and hand,

removing recoil from the firing shoulder.

(1) The sling consists of two different lengths of leather straps joined

together by a metal D ring (Figure 2-8). The longer strap is connected to

the sling swivel on the rear stud on the forearm of the rifle. The shorter

strap is attached to the sling swivel on the buttstock of the rifle. There are

two leather loops on the long strap known as keepers. The keepers are

used to adjust the tension on the sling. The frogs are hooks that are used

to adjust the length of the sling.

(2) To adjust the sling, the sniper disconnects the sling from the

buttstock swivel. Then, he adjusts the length of the metal D ring that joins

the two halves of the sling. He then makes sure it is even with the comb

of the stock when attaching the sling to the front swivel (Figure 2-9).

(3) The sniper adjusts the length of the sling by placing the frog on the long strap

of the sling in the 4th to the 7th set of adjustment holes on the rounded end of the

long strap that goes through the sling swivel on the forearm (Figure 2-10). (4) After adjusting the length, the sniper places the weapon on his firing hip and supports the

weapon with his firing arm. The sniper turns the sling away from him 90 degrees and inserts his nonfiring arm.

(5) The sniper slides the loop in the large section of the sling up the nonfiring arm until it is just below the armpit (Figure 2-11). He then slides both leather keepers down the sling until they bind the loop snugly round the nonfiring arm.

(6) The sniper moves his nonfiring hand from the outside of the sling to the inside of

the sling between the rifle and the sling. The sniper then grasps the forearm of the weapon, just behind the sling swivel with his nonfiring hand. He forces it outward and away from his body with the nonfiring hand (Figure 2-12).

I guess tom Rambo hasn't read the Sniper Handbook, where the sling is used in the kneeling position, ala the 6th Floor Sniper.

And, I would guess that not unlike the facts of the assassination of JFK, some persons have not read enough to know the

difference between a "shooting sling" and a rifle "carrying strap".

http://www.rifleshootermag.com/shooting_tips/sling_0612/

Most advertisements you see for rifle slings actually are for carrying straps, which are not the same thing. A carrying strap allows you to tote your rifle on your shoulder or across your back so that you don't have to bear its heavy weight in your arms. While it's very handy, a carrying strap may cause you to miss shots since you become lazy and have your rifle on your shoulder, rather than in your hands when you need it. A sling is designed to brace yourself for steadier, more accurate shooting. Like snipers, hunters can benefit from slings, not carrying straps.

Editors Note: With slight modifications, this column was excerpted from the author's book, THE ULTIMATE SNIPER (Paladin Press, 1993;

=========================================

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=13354

Post #4

If the sling on this rifle was so short I am unsure just how much value that would have to steady the rifle, and further given the very short range of the shots, I am not all all inclined to believe this would even be needed.

Mike

=============================================================================

Don't like what an obviously qualified USMC trained sniper has to say on the subject either, I see.

====================================================

Although I have little doubts that some "RAMBO", somewheres, has demonstrated his lack of marksmanship knowledge and actually shown up at a rifle range and utilized the sling while also firing from an excellent "bench rest" position, most who have been to the rifle range more than a couple of times recognize the benefit of the bench rest position over any other.

Furthermore, "Sling Shooting" is an art of it's own, and anyone who is unfamiliar with the techniques involved is asking

for trouble if they think that they can merely attach a "shooting sling" and immediatedly improve their accuracy.

So Bill, in event that you do not like the "CORRECT" answers, then by all means be my guest and dive back off down

into that rabbit hole.

Tom, rather than crap like Rambo, what about Saving Private Ryan. There's a different period weponry and tactics et.c. including the right handed clock toer sniper firing right handed and cocking with his left, Very fast and accurate in target accuisition, shooting and rechambering. Have you seen it? Is it correct and if not, how? I know it's just a movie, but some of the. reported as advised by army personell, I'm more interested in the weaponry and how it is portrayed as being used, particular the rapid US Sniper clocktower sequence at the end. How realistic is it? I aven't got a clue. (yes, Tim. very funny.)

oops what I do got is a smallkboard and little light which I suppose means too lazy to get the large ergonomic pluggedin and an optical mose instead of the pad and switching the lihjt on, however it interferes with viewing AvP' extended version.

Have never encountered (either on the firing range or at a gun show) anyone attempting to imitatate "Private Ryan".

Lots and lots of "Rambo's" can always be found.

P.S. True SF Qualified personell trained with and fired multitudes of "old" antiquated weapons as this is what was

quite prevelant in many third-world nations.

Lastly, and personally, I have never taken as if having much of anything factual, Saving Private Ryan; RAMBO; The Green Berets; and/or Oliver Stone's "JFK". or the old TV series COMBAT.

They are movies, made for entertainment purposes only!

Of course, many who claim to be JFK researchers, have watched Stone's "JFK" some 13-plus times, and have yet to

tell the difference between fact and entertainment.

Certainly! I would like nothing better than some FACTUAL evidence which would serve to indicate exactly where LHO obtained the CARRYING STRAP which was installed onto the Model 91/38 Short Rifle.

Just as any information relative to exactly where he acquired the WCC Carcano ammo and clip may also be of some

informative value.

Either of which could lead to associations, etc; of LHO.

Liklihood of finding factual and verifiable information relative to this:----------------Virtually Zero.

Value of continuation of discussion relative to usage of the CARRYING STRAP in some SPECULATIVE shooting scenario in which the strap was utilized as a shooting stabilization sling:-------------Completely Zero!

What the CARRYING STRAP was made from is clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That the CARRYING STRAP was virtually useless in regards to performing as a shooting stabilization sling is

also clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That the CARRYING STRAP would have created an impairment to anyone who was attempting to utilized the strap as a shooting stabilization sling in a rapid-fire shooting scenario with the bolt action Carcano Rifle, is also clearly established

through verifiable evidence.

That a "Bench-Rest" firing position, such as that created by the shooter in having stacked the boxes of books against the

window ledge, as well as having a box of books on which to sit, is one of the most desirable and preferred shooting positions, is clearly established through verifiable evidence.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would even attempt to utilize the home-produced

CARRYING STRAP as an aid in shooting stabilization is completely asinine, as the STRAP is by far too short.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would attempt to utilized this CARRYING STRAP

as a shooting stabilization sling in a rapid-fire situation with a bolt action rifle, is completely asinine.

That anyone who had even "Boy Scout" shooting experience would attempt to define any of the three shots fired, of which the maximum distance was slilghtly less than 100 yards, as being "difficult" shots, is completely asinine.

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/me...fleshooting.asp

Option A - Rifle Shooting (Modern Cartridge Type

Demonstrate the knowledge, skills, and attitude necessary to safely shoot a rifle from the benchrest position or supported prone position while using the five fundamentals of rifle shooting.

Using a .22 caliber rimfire rifle and shooting from a benchrest or supported prone position at 50 feet, fire five groups (three shots per group) that can be covered by a quarter.

================================================================================

15 rounds at 50-feet in which the sum total impact point of all rounds can be convered by a quarter.

Looks like our Boy Scouts require better shooters for their "Marksmanship Badge", than was the shooting accuracy which came from the sixth floor window of the TSDB.

Probably just the big, bad ole US Government actually training "Child Assassin's".

http://www.boyscouttrail.com/boy-scouts/me...fleshooting.asp

Option C - Muzzleloading Rifle Shooting

Using a muzzleloading rifle of .45 or .50 caliber and shooting from a bench rest or supported prone position, fire three groups (three shots per group) at 50 feet that can be covered by the base of a standard-size soft drink can.

Center the group on the target and fire three groups (five shots per group). According to the target used, each shot in the group must meet the following minimum score:

at 25 yards using NRA A-23 or NMLRA 50-yard targets : 7;

at 50 yards using NRA A-25 or NMLRA 100-yard targets : 7.

==================

9-rounds within an approximate 3-inch diameter circle.

For those who have never shot "Black Powder", this is some pretty "Shiny" shooting.

Especially with the big-bore black powder rifle.

Edited by Thomas H. Purvis
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target.

While those writing in this thread seem convinced the sniper on the sixth floor fired from a kneeling position, I'm not sure this is reflected in the record. Didn't the WC conclude the sniper fired from a sitting position, while using a box as a gun rest? If so, doesn't this run counter to the training Oswald received in the Marine Corps? I've read that the U.S. military trains shooters to fire with the rifle at an angle to the body, and to track moving targets by moving the rifle along with the target. (One book notes that by moving the rifle along with the target--actually, slightly ahead of the target--the bullet will exit the rifle barrel in line with target, and that the slight delay between one's pulling the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel would otherwise guarantee a miss.) Anyhow, if so, the shooter in the sniper's nest--to be firing military style--would need to have been facing the west end of the building, with his left shoulder to the window, and tracking the limo by moving his rifle from left to right.

So, to summarize: doesn't the box used as a "gun rest"--which indicates the sniper fired at a fixed location and did not track the limo--suggest the sniper was not military-trained? If not, why not?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ask two questions - what is the strap on the rifle and where did it come from?

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/013.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_8/pages/014.htm

http://www.jfkresearch.com/Gallery_10/page...flecuserial.htm

The Warren Report says:

Warren Report: p. 553- 554:

The Rifle

The rifle found on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository shortly after the assassination was a bolt-action, clip-fed, military rifle, 40.2 inches long and 8 pounds in weight.7 Inscribed on the rifle were various markings, including the words "CAL. 6.5," "MADE ITALY," "TERNI," and "ROCCA"; the numerals "1940" and "40"; the serial number C2766; the letters "R-E," "PG," and "TNI"; the figure of a crown; and several other barely decipherable letters and numbers.8 The rifle bore a very inexpensive Japanese four-power sight, stamped "4 x 18 COATED," "ORDNANCE OPTICS INC.," "HOLLYWOOD CALIFORNIA," and "MADE IN JAPAN'' 9

and a sling consisting of two leather straps, one of

which had a broad patch, which apparently had been inserted on the rifle and cut to length.

The sling was not a standard rifle sling, but appeared to be a musical instrument strap or a sling from a carrying case or camera bag.11 A basic purpose of a rifle sling is to enable the rifleman to steady his grip, by wrapping the arm into the sling in a prescribed manner. The sling on the rifle was too short to use in the normal way, but might have served to provide some additional steadiness. 12

The answer to question #1 is:

USAF sidearm holster Pat. 2,819,830 Patented by Norris N. Murray, March 6, 1956

U.S. Military Holsters & Pistol Cartridge Boxes ( Edward Scott Meadows, 1987, p. 376)

Tom: "It is the waist-band strap, to include that portion which runs over and across the shoulder, from a shoulder holster, combined into a single strap, which was formerly from a U.S. Army Air Corps issue to Pilots (&crewmen), up to and even through the Korean conflict in which it was now the U.S. Air Force, but due to remaining stocks, continued to be issued through the early 50's. A virtually identical versions were utilized by US Navy as well as USMC pilots."

It is also identified as a Bucheimer.

Making fine leather goods since 1884. And stamped ID #s on each item.

http://www.eotacforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=75&t=56144

I'm reading this month's selection of the Hard Case Crime book club, "The Murderer Vine." The main character of the book mentions that he carries his combat magnum in a "Bucheimer holster". Was Bucheimer a big company or more of a one man operation like Chic Gaylord?

IIRC Bucheimer holsters was based in or somewhere near Frederick, Maryland. I believe it was more than a one-man operation but nowhere as big as Bianchi or Safariland.

Their stuff was considered fairly top-shelf in the '50s and '60s but then Bianchi and Safariland and some others started coming up with new innovative designs incorporating steel shanks and such. Bucheimer kind of fell behind in leadership but continued to make good quality, sort of "second line" retro-type holsters that found a certain steady market.

I dunno exactly when they went out of business--'80s or '90s, I'd guess--but I've heard of at least two different holstermakers claiming to have some of the original Bucheimer patterns and/or tooling. One of these is now out of the holster business, too, the tooling resold again, though to whom I'm not sure.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/375532/site_id/1#import

......And ahh, the memories! The original Bucheimer company used to occupy a corner on York Road at the north end of Towson, Maryland (on the corner of York and Joppa Roads, IIRC). When I first knew the outfit, it was making and selling very-high-quality leather goods to the Maryland horse crowd. No holsters at first. Those came later.

I stopped-in there many times between 1950 and 1953 on my way from the Naval Photographic Center in Anacostia to spend weekends with my folks in Cockeysville, just a few miles farther up York Road. In a basement in the same block, Set Fitchett's "Sets's Sport Shop" was an even more frequent stop where I bought and traded (mostly bought) a passel of old guns and related goodies (including black powder, percussion caps, etc). The kid who worked for Set, Belden Burns, grew-up to be a manufacturers' rep (and Cockeysville resident, IIRC) whom I used to run into at SHOT Shows. Haven't seen Bel for a good many years now.

I've just now realized that I haven't seen a Bucheimer belt or holster for many years. Didn't miss 'em until now that I hear that the outfit is no more. Hope that Bel's still up and about. ......

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=260278561261&ih=016&category=4721&_trksid=p3286.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26its%3DD%252BC%26otn%3D2%26ps%3D5

.....Shoulder Holster set made by Bucheimer. It is in great condition and as far as I can tell it is complete. The number stamped on the back is 7791527......

So now we know what it is.

How did it get from the Bucheimer Company to USA AF to the rifle that is alleged to have been used to kill the President of the United States?

And why was it attached, on purpose, for what reason or utility?

Was it used to carry the weapon?

Was it used to steady the aim of the sniper?

Was there another use?

First I want to respond to some of Tom's statements. First I'm glad Tom and Mike and others with a knowldge of such things have bothered to think about this and contribute to this thread.

Earlier on Tom mentions that "Actually! Were I able to fatually answer those questions, then it would serve to indicate that I was a "co-conspirator" associate of LHO!" - and indeed that cuts to the heart of what I am trying to get at.

Tom says on the one hand, "Now! In event that you reference exactly from where LHO obtained those bullets utilized in the assassination, then one is in about the same boat as with the rifle sling, and Tom is most certainly smart enough to recognize when a "trail" is so cold that it would take a major singular effort to find new information relative to the subject matter," before adding the note that,

"Oh yeah, and by the way! Soon, hopefully, there will be a new book out which deals with only the subject matter of the WCC ammo, and which will most assuredly shed some new light and information relative to this enigma."

Is there going to be a new book on the subject of the WCC ammo?

Gary Mack has also checked in to wonder why the answers to these questons are so important and to express the idea that there are certain things we will just never know.

Well I think we can determine where the sling came from and how it was used by the Sixth Floor Sniper, whoever he was, and regardless of how good a marksman he was.

Tom just wants to think of Lee Harvey Oswald, the hapless ex-Marine as being the Sixth Floor Sniper, despite him having an alibi. But even attributing the shots to Oswald, and him having a USMC training and good shooting record (according to Lattimore), Tom refuses to acknowldge Oswald or the Sixth Floor sniper was even a pro, and instead was a boyscout who made three shots anybody could have made.

He says, "Personally, I would assume that those who actually carry the "Sniper" qualification, are quite disgusted with those who seem to be of the impression that shots fired from slant distances of approximately 62 yards; 88 yards; and 98 yards, required any "Sniper" skills and/or qualifications. In fact, even most basic USMC and/or US Army recruits, would consider these distances as childs play/aka pellet gun/Boy Scout shooting distances. Reading too many of them "conspiracy" books about the shot difficulty tends to make one frequently "overemphasize" what is in fact quite simple."

Well we have the rifle, we have the sling, we have one bullet and three shells, and we know the Sixth Floor sniper sat in a kneeling position to take his shots.

Now did he use the sling to steady his shot?

If not, what was the purpose of the sling? To carry the rifle?

Again, where did the sling come from and why was it attached to the rifle?

BK

is there going to be a new book on the subject of the WCC ammo?

At least a new writing which will shed additional information which may in fact open other doors.

the hapless ex-Marine

Perhaps this is your definition! Most certainly not mine!

good shooting record (according to Lattimore),

According to his USMC Rangefire Record, as well as evey USMC Rifle Expert who has ever taken the time to completely

evaluate this evidence.

Well we have the rifle, we have the sling, we have one bullet and three shells, and we know the Sixth Floor sniper sat in a kneeling position to take his shots.

Correction! We have the rifle and the carrying strap, and we have one virtually intact bullet as well as a relatively considerable amount of fragments from another bullet, and "we" have no true idea as to exactly what firing position the shooter/aka LHO took during the firing of the three shots.

From witness testimony, it would appear that he was possibly standing at the time of the last shot.

And, with the position of the boxes found on the sixth floor and at the window, the shooter could have been sitting fully

on a single box and leaned well forward supporting his upper body and rifle with the other boxes.

Now, perhaps you have some fantastic crystal ball which will inform as to exact position taken during the shooting, but as

to me, I will be stuck with a "best guess" based on the arrangment of the various boxes.

Which by the way indicates sitting/benchrest postion for most likely the first and second shots and assuming eye witness

testimony to be somewhat reliable, standing for the last "snapshot".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target.

While those writing in this thread seem convinced the sniper on the sixth floor fired from a kneeling position, I'm not sure this is reflected in the record. Didn't the WC conclude the sniper fired from a sitting position, while using a box as a gun rest? If so, doesn't this run counter to the training Oswald received in the Marine Corps? I've read that the U.S. military trains shooters to fire with the rifle at an angle to the body, and to track moving targets by moving the rifle along with the target. (One book notes that by moving the rifle along with the target--actually, slightly ahead of the target--the bullet will exit the rifle barrel in line with target, and that the slight delay between one's pulling the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel would otherwise guarantee a miss.) Anyhow, if so, the shooter in the sniper's nest--to be firing military style--would need to have been facing the west end of the building, with his left shoulder to the window, and tracking the limo by moving his rifle from left to right.

So, to summarize: doesn't the box used as a "gun rest"--which indicates the sniper fired at a fixed location and did not track the limo--suggest the sniper was not military-trained? If not, why not?

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walking

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naismith%27s_rule

The basic rule is as follows:

Allow 1 hour for every 3 miles (5 km) forward, plus ½ hour for every 1000 feet (300 metres) of ascent.

=============================================================================

Now! Assuming that the speed of the Presidential Limo to be 9mph (3 X the average walking speed).

The limo was travelling almost directly away from the shooter on a downhill grade which also made the shooting easier in that

virtually no "tracking" was required.

Therefore, it is far more difficult to hit a target walking laterally at 3mph across a field of fire than to hit a target which is

moving directly away from the firing position at 9 mph.

Tracking the walking target requires some "sniper" ability. Shooting the other one does not.

Or do you suppose that all KIA by snipers required notice to the enemy that they must either walk towards or away from the

shooter and there would be no "lateral" walking across the field of fire as it made tracking the target too difficult.

JFK/the target had virtually no lateral movement, therefore completely eliminating the need to hold a "lead" while also tracking the target laterally.

The virtually "away from shooter' movement of JFK/the target (and especially on the downhill slope of Elm St) also required virtually no "lead" and/or tracking.

All that one had to do was see the approximate pathway of the target, sight into the area, and then allow the tareget to come into the crosshairs/sights, and then pull the trigger.

Thereafter to take another aim in the street ahead of the target and allow the target to again come into the line of fire.

All of this BS about "tracking and leading" is just that. The simplicity is to take a firing position aim ahead of the moving target and the target will then come virtually into your sights.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/lib...0/ch32.htm#s6p3

Section VI

ENGAGEMENT OF MOVING TARGETS

Engaging moving targets not only requires the sniper to determine the target distance and wind effects on the round, but he must also consider the lateral and speed angle of the target, the round's time of flight, and the placement of a proper lead to compensate for both. These added variables increase the chance of a miss. Therefore, the sniper should engage moving targets when it is the only option.

3-22. TECHNIQUES

To engage moving targets, the sniper employs the following techniques:

Leading.

Tracking.

Trapping or ambushing.

Tracking and holding.

Firing a snap shot.

a. Leading. Engaging moving targets requires the sniper to place the cross hairs ahead of the target's movement. The distance the cross hairs are placed in front of the target's movement is called a lead. There are four factors in determining leads:

(1) Speed of the target. As a target moves faster, it will move a greater distance during the bullet's flight. Therefore, the lead increases as the target's speed increases.

(2) Angle of movement. A target moving perpendicular to the bullet's flight path moves a greater lateral distance than a target moving at an angle away from or toward the bullet's path. Therefore, a target moving at a 45-degree angle covers less ground than a target moving at a 90-degree angle.

(3) Range to the target. The farther away a target is, the longer it takes for the bullet to reach it. Therefore, the lead must be increased as the distance to the target increases.

(4) Wind effects. The sniper must consider how the wind will affect the trajectory of the round. A wind blowing against the target's direction of movement requires less of a lead than a wind blowing in the same direction as the target's movement.

b. Tracking. hacking requires the sniper to establish an aiming point ahead of the target's movement and to maintain it as the weapon is fired. This requires the weapon and body position to be moved while following the target and firing.

c. Trapping or Ambushing. Trapping or ambushing is the sniper's preferred method of engaging moving targets. The sniper must establish an aiming point ahead of the target and pull the trigger when the target reaches it. This method allows the sniper's weapon and body position to remain motionless. With practice, a sniper can determine exact leads and aiming points using the horizontal stadia lines in the mil dots in the M3A. [/b

]d. Tracking and Holding. The sniper uses this technique to engage an erratically moving target. That is, while the target is moving, the sniper keeps his cross hairs centered as much as possible and adjusts his position with the target. When the target stops, the sniper quickly perfects his hold and fires. This technique requires concentration and discipline to keep from firing before the target comes to a complete halt.

e. Firing a Snap Shot. A sniper may often attempt to engage a target that only presents itself briefly, then resumes cover. Once he establishes a pattern, he can aim in the vicinity of the target's expected appearance and fire a snap shot at the moment of exposure.

Even the most basic fool knows to allow the target to "come to you".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target.

While those writing in this thread seem convinced the sniper on the sixth floor fired from a kneeling position, I'm not sure this is reflected in the record. Didn't the WC conclude the sniper fired from a sitting position, while using a box as a gun rest? If so, doesn't this run counter to the training Oswald received in the Marine Corps? I've read that the U.S. military trains shooters to fire with the rifle at an angle to the body, and to track moving targets by moving the rifle along with the target. (One book notes that by moving the rifle along with the target--actually, slightly ahead of the target--the bullet will exit the rifle barrel in line with target, and that the slight delay between one's pulling the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel would otherwise guarantee a miss.) Anyhow, if so, the shooter in the sniper's nest--to be firing military style--would need to have been facing the west end of the building, with his left shoulder to the window, and tracking the limo by moving his rifle from left to right.

So, to summarize: doesn't the box used as a "gun rest"--which indicates the sniper fired at a fixed location and did not track the limo--suggest the sniper was not military-trained? If not, why not?

mmm...and why, when after carrying the rifle disassembled in a paper 'sack', assemble it, attach the carry 'sling', and then leave behind the incriminating, easily traced, fully assembled rifle. (how long was the jacket found down stairs?) . It reminds me of the odd (unidentified) cop walking away from the scene with a woman who averts her face and he covers his or speaks into something in a quick section of Bell. He had a long dark coat on.

The issue of the pipes and the narrow space between the boxes and the pipes seems to limit movement. If he sat, then there seems little movement possible for the second and third shot. If he was in front of the pipes, the height of the window opening and exposure to witnesses could be more of a problem again. If he was close to the pipes, why did the people downstairs only hear cartridges hittng the floor but no sound reverberating down the pipes?

(ps. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ghlite=%2Bpipes

"One cannot, however, as most do, ignore the pipes. They clearly define available space.

I seems to me that to go from the first shot position the rifle must be made more level. Raising the front brings it closer to the lower edge of the window. Moving the front to the right brings it closer to the right hand edge of the window. Lowering the rear of the rifle means moving the body. The pipes restrict moving to the left. So while redoing the bolt the body must shift position and the target must be reacquired. This is also done while sighting on a real live moving human, not a target.

Another observation re this available space is the question of a Houston st shot. It seems that this was never a consideration. In fact the possible shooting was very limited and left no room for failure. Yet it succeeded. What if it hadn't? Perhaps this is one reason it is easy to specualte about more shooters. Not only would Oswald be the man who shot the president. He was also the one who botched it

"The only diagram where Alan includes the pipes is the one on the right. The pipes are incorrectly placed. He has the bottom rest box standing an inch or so into the correct pipe place. I think he is almost right so the bottom box is up against the pipe.

The diagram on the left is, I think, correct. See Oswald there scaled to match and the overhead crated from this. This is Oswald sitting upright on the corner of the seat box.

"

"Not the final word. I think that is acknowledged yet the finding of the solution ignores (perhaps conveniently) the very real solid pipes. They have been left out. Finally : A photo locating them. Previously I worked out the distance from elm street wall as one brick to the c/l of the pipe. Now one can see clearly how far from the corner. So I've placed them into the diagrams. This makes Alans suggestion slightly wrong. Also it places the 'official' concealing wall of boxes as per the lower diag here.

Therefore I would reevaluate Brennans testimony and others who saw a barrel protruding as far as is suggested. Is there enough room. Would he need to move back and hunker down in order to fire 2 and 3? His left shoulder would be up against the pipe?

possibilities

"

etc")

Edited by John Dolva
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Certainly, Tom, as a trained sniper, you know full well that shooting at a moving target is far different than shooting at a stationary target.

While those writing in this thread seem convinced the sniper on the sixth floor fired from a kneeling position, I'm not sure this is reflected in the record. Didn't the WC conclude the sniper fired from a sitting position, while using a box as a gun rest? If so, doesn't this run counter to the training Oswald received in the Marine Corps? I've read that the U.S. military trains shooters to fire with the rifle at an angle to the body, and to track moving targets by moving the rifle along with the target. (One book notes that by moving the rifle along with the target--actually, slightly ahead of the target--the bullet will exit the rifle barrel in line with target, and that the slight delay between one's pulling the trigger and the exit of the bullet from the barrel would otherwise guarantee a miss.) Anyhow, if so, the shooter in the sniper's nest--to be firing military style--would need to have been facing the west end of the building, with his left shoulder to the window, and tracking the limo by moving his rifle from left to right.

So, to summarize: doesn't the box used as a "gun rest"--which indicates the sniper fired at a fixed location and did not track the limo--suggest the sniper was not military-trained? If not, why not?

mmm...and why, when after carrying the rifle disassembled in a paper 'sack', assemble it, attach the carry 'sling', and then leave behind the incriminating, easily traced, fully assembled rifle. (how long was the jacket found down stairs?) . It reminds me of the odd (unidentified) cop walking away from the scene with a woman who averts her face and he covers his or speaks into something in a quick section of Bell. He had a long dark coat on.

The issue of the pipes and the narrow space between the boxes and the pipes seems to limit movement. If he sat, then there seems little movement possible for the second and third shot. If he was in front of the pipes, the height of the window opening and exposure to witnesses could be more of a problem again. If he was close to the pipes, why did the people downstairs only hear cartridges hittng the floor but no sound reverberating down the pipes?

(ps. http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ghlite=%2Bpipes

"One cannot, however, as most do, ignore the pipes. They clearly define available space.

I seems to me that to go from the first shot position the rifle must be made more level. Raising the front brings it closer to the lower edge of the window. Moving the front to the right brings it closer to the right hand edge of the window. Lowering the rear of the rifle means moving the body. The pipes restrict moving to the left. So while redoing the bolt the body must shift position and the target must be reacquired. This is also done while sighting on a real live moving human, not a target.

Another observation re this available space is the question of a Houston st shot. It seems that this was never a consideration. In fact the possible shooting was very limited and left no room for failure. Yet it succeeded. What if it hadn't? Perhaps this is one reason it is easy to specualte about more shooters. Not only would Oswald be the man who shot the president. He was also the one who botched it

"The only diagram where Alan includes the pipes is the one on the right. The pipes are incorrectly placed. He has the bottom rest box standing an inch or so into the correct pipe place. I think he is almost right so the bottom box is up against the pipe.

The diagram on the left is, I think, correct. See Oswald there scaled to match and the overhead crated from this. This is Oswald sitting upright on the corner of the seat box.

"

"Not the final word. I think that is acknowledged yet the finding of the solution ignores (perhaps conveniently) the very real solid pipes. They have been left out. Finally : A photo locating them. Previously I worked out the distance from elm street wall as one brick to the c/l of the pipe. Now one can see clearly how far from the corner. So I've placed them into the diagrams. This makes Alans suggestion slightly wrong. Also it places the 'official' concealing wall of boxes as per the lower diag here.

Therefore I would reevaluate Brennans testimony and others who saw a barrel protruding as far as is suggested. Is there enough room. Would he need to move back and hunker down in order to fire 2 and 3? His left shoulder would be up against the pipe?

possibilities

"

etc")

John;

The "Pipe's" are an absolute non-issue! As, anyone who has ever shot, as well as having visited the Sixth Floor museum, will attest.

Just in event that you have yet to grasp it, those who can not resolve the issues of the assassination (as simple as they actually are), continue to dream up things in which to attempt to cast doubt on the simple fact that a single person, located on the sixth floor of the TSDB, fired three shots at JFK and struck him with all three shots.

Claiming great complications to this simple feat is, within the realm of the human species, much better than having to admit that they can not resolve the simple issues.

A right-handed shooter, for example, could easily fire from a position which placed his left shoulder, etc; leaning against the

left edge of the window sill as a brace.

Do you see anything in any photograph which would demonstrate that the pipes created an impediment to anyone shooting

from the sixth floor window?

I do not, and rest assured that I have also been to the Sixth Floor Museuem multiple times.

Lastly on this subject, the original position of the stacked boxes is more indicative that the shooter sat at an angle to the window, which would have placed the rifle barrell actually closer to the right window sill. Which, if the person leaned well

forward in order to see/obtain an aim directly below, would easily place much of the weapon protruding out the window.

Nevertheless, there is an entire window from which to shoot.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trs8W-gLwJE...feature=related

P.S.

In event you would research the Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle, you would see that the weapon can not be dis-assembled

without removal of the sling mount keeper and bolt on the forward edge of the weapon. As, this bolt also holds the forward

barrell band in place and the weapon can not be dis-assembled without removal of this band.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom:

"The basic rule is as follows:

Allow 1 hour for every 3 miles (5 km) forward, plus ½ hour for every 1000 feet (300 metres) of ascent.

=============================================================================

Now! Assuming that the speed of the Presidential Limo to be 9mph (3 X the average walking speed).

The limo was travelling almost directly away from the shooter on a downhill grade which also made the shooting easier in that

virtually no "tracking" was required.

Therefore, it is far more difficult to hit a target walking laterally at 3mph across a field of fire than to hit a target which is

moving directly away from the firing position at 9 mph.

Tracking the walking target requires some "sniper" ability. Shooting the other one does not.

Or do you suppose that all KIA by snipers required notice to the enemy that they must either walk towards or away from the

shooter and there would be no "lateral" walking across the field of fire as it made tracking the target too difficult.

JFK/the target had virtually no lateral movement, therefore completely eliminating the need to hold a "lead" while also tracking the target laterally.

The virtually "away from shooter' movement of JFK/the target (and especially on the downhill slope of Elm St) also required virtually no "lead" and/or tracking.

All that one had to do was see the approximate pathway of the target, sight into the area, and then allow the tareget to come into the crosshairs/sights, and then pull the trigger.

Thereafter to take another aim in the street ahead of the target and allow the target to again come into the line of fire.

All of this BS about "tracking and leading" is just that. The simplicity is to take a firing position aim ahead of the moving target and the target will then come virtually into your sights."

So, Tom, in your opinion, would a shot from the Dal-Tex Building be a much easier shot than a shot from the sniper's nest?

sniper-full.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom, the pics gone now, not looking forward to redoing them, but Allan had the pipes pushed off to the side. The actual room available with the boxes in place was very restricted. While the shots from the point of view of whether someone COULD shoot from there to the points of impact, I don't dispute at all, including the possibility of tree limb shenanigans. What I see is a very good shootng from a very small window of opportunity. Certainly good in the sense that the objective was achieved. This speaks of a, perhaps justified, supreme confidence and a stupidity at the same time. What if he'd missed?

Also on another vein, speaking as teacher to a neophyte ( lets say ( and it's just about true, I wouldn't know which end is which...) could you explain, whether the dissassembled rifle could be put in a paper sack and be carried WITH the sling over the shoulder and in this way hidden under a jacket AND then be assembled without removing the sling, thank you.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

John :

You may be interested.....

THE "SNIPER'S NEST":

INCARNATIONS AND IMPLICATIONS

by Allan Eaglesham

http://www.manuscriptservice.com/SN/snipos.htm

----- Museum TSBD Pipes

Sept. 6, 1998 News

http://karws.gso.uri.edu/Marsh/Jfk-conspiracy/0906kend.htm

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Pat......

Photos taken from Dal Tex appeared in the "Saturday Evening Post Magazine"....

TSBD on the right.....They made the mistake of also printing that they were taken from

the snipers nest..... :)

B......

Edited by Bernice Moore
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tom, the pics gone now, not looking forward to redoing them, but Allan had the pipes pushed off to the side. The actual room available with the boxes in place was very restricted. While the shots from the point of view of whether someone COULD shoot from there to the points of impact, I don't dispute at all, including the possibility of tree limb shenanigans. What I see is a very good shootng from a very small window of opportunity. Certainly good in the sense that the objective was achieved. This speaks of a, perhaps justified, supreme confidence and a stupidity at the same time. What if he'd missed?

Also on another vein, speaking as teacher to a neophyte ( lets say ( and it's just about true, I wouldn't know which end is which...) could you explain, whether the dissassembled rifle could be put in a paper sack and be carried WITH the sling over the shoulder and in this way hidden under a jacket AND then be assembled without removing the sling, thank you.

1. Based on the known knowledge relative to the "paper bag", it would appear highly unlikely that

the Model 91/38 Carcano Short Rifle was carried into the TSDB in a single episode.

2. This would therefore indicate that:

A. A portion of the rifle, which would have most probably been merely the stock of the weapon, was

carried into the TSDB and "hidden", possibly at a prior date.

B. The receiver and barrel portion of the weapon was carried into the TSDB on the day in which LHO

had gone to the Paine home.

Now!

The weapon stock could easily have been carried into the TSDB in a "reverse sling arms" mode, under

a raincoat, with little notice.

I am of the opinion that this is most probably how LHO transported ANY Carcano weapon in his possession

around town.

Receiver and barrel in the paper bag, which few would question due to length, etc;, and weapon stock

carried under the cover of a raincoat at a reverse sling arms in either position. (Stock butt up or stock butt down).

There also exists the possiblity that LHO previously carried the weapon stock into the TSDB in a "paper bag" as well.

Although I have not taken the time to fully research the matter, the "paper bag" which was sent to a fictional address may have some bearing on this, just as the "package" which the US Mail failed to deleiver to LHO at the Paine address, may also have some bearing on this.

The WC and/or the FBI did not want to broach onto the subject matter of the high probability that LHO had

carried the weapon into the TSDB in two seperate and distinctive operations, as this would absolutely prove "Prior Intent", which would tend to dispell the "Lone Nut" theory that LHO merely got disgruntled, went to the Paine home on the night of 11/21/63, and then got up the next morning and decided to shoot JFK.

Nevertheless, it should be quite obvious that LHO did not ride around Dallas, or for that matter anywhere else, with a fully assembled Model 91/38 Carcano Rifle, carried in some flimsy paper bag.

The location of the "sling"/carrying strap pad would indicate that LHO carried the weapon in an upside down version of sling arms. Which, by the way is a standard procedure that is readily learned in all

branches of the military service as this keeps rain/etc; from entering the barrel of the weapon while walking guard duty in the rain.

Additionally, when walking guard duty in the rain, (why did you think I long ago posted the annual rainfall in Japan?) one can carry the weapon in and upside down version of sling arms and also place the poncho on without the barrel of the weapon protruding higher than the shoulder and affecting the wear of the poncho.

All of which, LHO as a US Marine, walking guard duty in japan, would have readily learned.

Lastly:

What I see is a very good shootng from a very small window of opportunity

The window was neither small, nor was the "window of opportunity".

The window from which the shot eminated, was in fact IDEAL.

It offered the ability to see the target coming into full view long prior to entering what became the "kill zone"; It offered the ability to, if necessary engage the target as it approached, or, wait untill the

target was in a "going away" position, which happens to be vertually always best in an "ambush"

shooting; It offered that "turn point" onto Elm St. which caused he target top have to decrease speed;

it offered a position/location in which there could be virtually no interference with line-of-sight by some

unaccounted for conditions (spectators, etc;) ; it offered an "obstacle' between the shooters position and

the target; and the listing goes on and on, and on.

Which, when taken into total consideration, would serve to indicate that a true "SNIPER" of first class ability, chose the location.

Nevertheless, the shooting in Dealy Plaza on 11/22/63, was actually only "marginal", which demonstrates the inexperience of the shooter in this type shooting scenario.

Choice of firing position, by far exceeded what LHO should have been aware of.

Shooting ability achieved, it far more in line with what LHO's demonstrated ability was.

Anyone who listens to this "Buck Fever" BS, no doubt gets a good laugh.

Buck Fever comes into play primarily as a result of taking the first shot available as soon as the deer/buck

comes into view. As opposed to the wait until the target gets into the open and/or designated and preferable kill zone.

Someone (whoever the shooter was), knew exactly when and where his preferential shots were to be made, and he also sat and waited.

He could have easily achieved, at minimum, a "body shot" as the Presidential limo approached, yet sat and waited until the "best" fire zone was achieved, and then went for the head shots.

So, under the assumption that LHO made these shots (which were marginally accurate at best), somewhere, he acquired training and/or instructions in target acquisition which were far and above his indicated training.

Just as was the chosen firing location far and above his indicated training.

Take this to the bank!

1. The Sixth Floor Window of the TSDB, from which the three shot were fired, was, for all practical purposes, one of the absolutely best firing positions which one could have. Be it in urban, or jungle

shooting.

2. The "choice" of this absolutely excellent firing position, by far exceeded any indicated training

which LHO appears to have received.

3. The actual shooting from the Sixth Floor Window, was, with all things considered, marginal at best.

4. The lack of taking the "first shot" as JFK approached the TSDB on Main St, is fully indicative that

someone had at least informed the shooter of the advantages of the "going away" shot, v. the approaching shot.

5. The Sixth Floor also fully provided for a "contingency" location at the other end of the building.

Which happens to be where someone was observed while the "sniper's nest" position was taken up by

the Negro workman who was eating his lunch.

6. The "other" position was a considerably "less desirable" position as one would not have had the

advantage of full observation of the approaching target, as well as the fact that one would have had to be shooting at a target which was travelling laterally across the field of fire.

So, when someone tells you that the Sixth Floor Window was a poor location, ask them to name any other position in which the shooting position was virtually "by the book" on all of the advantages which a good shooting position is determined.

Best position, better than average shooter; three shots, three hits.

Tom

P.S. Exactly what kind of idiot would attempt to "frame" someone who in reality was, as is erroneously reported, a poor shot.

Exactly what kind of idiot would "hire" someone to perform the task, if that person had not demonstrated the ability to achieve the shooting feat?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Please sign in to comment

You will be able to leave a comment after signing in



Sign In Now
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...