JFK: Inside the Target Car

[Pat Speer]

Wow a fourth test was done...Gary Mack answers these questions here -

http://blogs.discovery.com/jfk/2008/11/gary-mack-answe.html

Thanks Wade. I just took a look...and the test confirms EVERYTHING I've been saying. The explosion of bone from this tangential shot re-produces Z-313, almost exactly. The beveling of bone seen on the simulated head is a keyhole entry, and matches the beveling on the Harper fragment almost exactly. There can be no doubt now that the bullet hitting Kennedy at 313 was a tangential shot impacting at the supposed exit location. Dr. Clark was right.

Wait just a moment, Pat. Did you not notice that there is actual no point of entry? That conflicts with the existing WC drawings, not to mention the x-rays and autopsy photos, doesn't it?

Also, did you happen to notice that the dummy head was not in the Z312 position? That then opens the door to the question, 'if the head were in the Z312 position and the results were that shown in this clip, where did that shot come from'?

A third question might be to ask why, since we know the DC and Gary Mack have shamelessly cherrypicked and misrepresented information in order to suit their agenda, would they not feature this test prominently in their show instead of attempting to minimize it?

Pamela, over the last several years I have studied the head wounds and wound ballistics more than any other researcher I know. This study made clear to me that the shot at frame 313 did not hit Kennedy on the back of the head, and was a tangential shot hitting Kennedy on the side of the head, just as originally proposed by Dr. Clark in Dallas. Gary Mack, presumably, knows of my studies, as he follows this forum and has sent me many e-mails regarding my posts. I find it hard to believe that he didn't recognize that the explosion of bone from this "missed" shot mirrored the explosion shown in the Z-film, and supported my conclusions.

Accordingly, I'd like to think this clip's re-emergence from the dust-bin had something to do with Gary's desire to sneak this info out into the light. If so, I'm deeply appreciative.

[Jack White]

I submit that the research of Dr. David Mantik is superior to that of Mr. Speer.

Jack

[Pat Speer]

I submit that the research of Dr. David Mantik is superior to that of Mr. Speer.

Jack

I don't see what this has to do with anything. I have a tremendous amount of respect for Dr. Mantik, and am not claiming that I am smarter than him or anything like that.

Dr. Mantik and I agree on many things. We agree that F8 (what I call the mystery photo) shows the back of the head. We agree that the 6.5 fragment supposedly on the back of the head isn't really on the back of the head. We agree that the white section toward the back of the head on the lateral x-ray, is abnormal. We also disagree on some things.

I'm not aware of his ever debunking any of my research or conclusions, however. So whose research is superior is irrelevant.

What is relevant is that on this forum and on my webpage, I have argued that a full metal jacket traveling through the middle of Kennedy's head from the EOP entrance would not blow the top of his head off, and would leave large fractures at entrance and a slightly larger hole at exit. The shot from the knoll on the Discovery Channel program did exactly that. This casts doubt that a bullet traveled through Kennedy's head from the EOP. The shot striking Kennedy, we should remember, supposedly created minimal fractures at entrance and an enormous exit, due in part to the explosion of a tremendous temporary cavity. This did not happen on the program.

I have also argued that shot striking Kennedy at the "cowlick entrance" would not create the wounds reported in the autopsy report, and shown on the x-rays, but would blow the top of Kennedy's head off. The Discovery Channel confirmed this as well.

But, most importantly, I have argued that the bullet striking Kennedy at frame 313 struck Kennedy on the side of his head from behind and created a tangential wound of both entrance and exit. The bullet striking the side of the simulated head on the outtake created a similar wound, but more significantly, created a debris cloud quite similar to that seen on Z-313, and made a large skull fragment shoot forward at the same angle as the large fragment in Z-313. The bullet's impacting on the back of the head did not re-create this pattern. This shot therefore confirms my conclusions.

Now you can argue all you want that the Zapruder film is fake. But the shot depicted on the Zapruder film at 313, real or fake, is a tangential shot striking Kennedy on the side of the head. I feel quite certain now that it is only a matter of time before this is recognized as a scientific fact. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Edited November 22, 2008 by Pat Speer

[J. Raymond Carroll]

But, most importantly, I have argued that the bullet striking Kennedy at frame 313 struck Kennedy on the side of his head from behind and created a tangential wound of both entrance and exit. The bullet striking the side of the simulated head on the outtake created a similar wound,

Yes the stills posted by Duncan do support that, but I seriously question whether a minute examination of that fourth test "skull" would reveal conclusively which direction the shot came from, assuming we did not already know where Yardley was positioned when he fired that shot.

but more significantly, created a debris cloud quite similar to that seen on Z-313,

In this morning's COPA presentation, Dr. Cyril Wecht mentioned a leading textbook on blood spatter analysis which states (if I heard correctly) that blood spatter analysis is USELESS in telling the direction from which a shot came.

Now you can argue all you want that the Zapruder film is fake. But the shot depicted on the Zapruder film at 313, real or fake, is a tangential shot striking Kennedy on the side of the head. I feel quite certain now that it is only a matter of time before this is recognized as a scientific fact. I just hope it's sooner rather than later.

Assuming that is true, I submit that the violent back/left head-snap is evidence that this tangential wound was made by a bullet entering from the right front, consistent with Hatman's location behind the wooden fence.

[Peter McGuire]

I have no particular qualms about the fatal shot - or any or all of them - having come from the 6th floor southeast window. If it could be shown with 100% certainty that this is indeed the case, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger.

The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been.

Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after they had heard - either directly from a police radio, or through the word spreading through the crowd - that the Presidential parade was on Main Street. The earliest that could have been was 12:22, or possibly as late as 12:26. They then walked around the TSBD via Houston Street and rode the freight elevator to the fifth floor. Bonnie Ray joined them after they had arrived at the windows, and immediately after he had left the sixth floor.

Both elevators were on the fifth floor, according to the testimony of Roy Truly, who had looked up the shaft and seen the bottoms of both elevators at the same level after entering the building behind Officer Baker, and before the two of them began their ascent by stair. The east-side passenger elevator could only be operated by someone inside the elevator car; the freight elevator, while able to be called from another floor, would not operate if the gate was open. Truly was unable to call either elevator to the first floor, thus indicating that the freight elevator gate was open. When Baker & Truly reached the fifth floor, the freight elevator was gone.

Jack Dougherty himself testified to his location at the time he heard "a backfire," and that he was "getting stock" on both the fifth and sixth floors. Since the only other persons known to be upstairs - the "three blind mice" at the front windows - were away from the elevators. While any could have left the gate open (despite Jarman's testimony that he'd closed it upon exiting), Jack's proximity to the west-side freight elevator - "ten feet west of the west elevator" - his "getting stock," and his admission that he'd ridden the freight elevator downstairs after hearing the "backfire," does more than simply suggest that it was Jack who'd had the elevator gate open.

When Roy Truly saw the elevators upstairs, he not only yelled up for it, but also rang a bell that was used to alert anyone using the elevator that someone else needed it and to make sure the gate was closed. Standing directly beside it, Jack did not react to the bell or Truly's yelling. Whether this was a pre-arranged signal or not, it certainly served to alert anyone upstairs that someone else wanted to use the elevator.

Since Bonnie Ray could've seen Oswald but apparently didn't (he'd have had no fear of retribution from Oswald after the weekend was over, so if he'd seen him he could have said so), and had been upstairs past the time that the parade had been scheduled to go by - meaning that anyone who'd intended to shoot the President would have had to have been in position before the scheduled 12:25 arrival - and Jack did not get run over (or hear or see anything) while standing directly in Oswald's presumed path from the time he'd heard the "backfire" until he'd taken the elevator downstairs after Truly had started upstairs, demonstrates conclusively that Oswald was not upstairs; someone else therefore must have been.

Whoever was upstairs doing the shooting was not constrained by the time needed to meet Officer Baker on the second floor, and thus had nearly all of the time that it took Baker to run inside, wait for the elevator briefly, start upstairs, encounter Oswald, and run up the remaining flights of stairs, stopping to look beyond each landing, before it was necessary to go down ... or possibly up to wait at the sixth floor while Baker & Truly boarded the east elevator (which Truly did not even remark to Baker about its being missing when they got there) and rode it up to the seventh floor, clearing the way for the freight elevator to go down without the chance of encountering Baker on the way.

... And that, my friends, is how it's quite possible that the fatal shot came from the 6th floor southeast window without having been fired by Lee Oswald.

It likewise explains the "elderly Negro" (Bonnie Ray with white stuff in his hair) seen by someone on the street, and it's my bet that it was Jack Dougherty both standing at "parade rest" (his WWII service before his release on medical grounds was guarding aircraft on the ground, i.e., sentry duty) and babysitting Bonnie Ray and the both on the fifth floor to make sure they didn't go downstairs before the shooting was done, as well as how the shooter(s) got out of the building. Luke Mooney saw them on his way upstairs but apparently never realized it.

Great post, however, I would change it somewhat to confirm to my unwavering belief that Oswald was simply the fall guy.

My version would be "the same, only a little different".

I have also including Connelly’s statement which makes it impossible not to believe in some kind of frontal shot.

Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest

Sixth floor of book depository, not the grassy knoll, was origin of lethal shot

Although there is ample evidence to prove shots from the front, we know Kennedy was also shot at and hit from behind, so lets just say that some of the shots from behind came from the 6th floor southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

With that in mind, even if it could be shown with 100% certainty that shots did come from the southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger.

The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been.

Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after they had heard - either directly from a police radio, or through the word spreading through the crowd - that the Presidential parade was on Main Street. The earliest that could have been was 12:22, or possibly as late as 12:26. They then walked around the TSBD via Houston Street and rode the freight elevator to the fifth floor. Bonnie Ray joined them after they had arrived at the windows, and immediately after he had left the sixth floor.

Both elevators were on the fifth floor, according to the testimony of Roy Truly, who had looked up the shaft and seen the bottoms of both elevators at the same level after entering the building behind Officer Baker, and before the two of them began their ascent by stair. The east-side passenger elevator could only be operated by someone inside the elevator car; the freight elevator, while able to be called from another floor, would not operate if the gate was open. Truly was unable to call either elevator to the first floor, thus indicating that the freight elevator gate was open. When Baker & Truly reached the fifth floor, the freight elevator was gone.

Jack Dougherty himself testified to his location at the time he heard "a backfire," and that he was "getting stock" on both the fifth and sixth floors. Since the only other persons known to be upstairs - the "three blind mice" at the front windows - were away from the elevators. While any could have left the gate open (despite Jarman's testimony that he'd closed it upon exiting), Jack's proximity to the west-side freight elevator - "ten feet west of the west elevator" - his "getting stock," and his admission that he'd ridden the freight elevator downstairs after hearing the "backfire," does more than simply suggest that it was Jack who'd had the elevator gate open.

When Roy Truly saw the elevators upstairs, he not only yelled up for it, but also rang a bell that was used to alert anyone using the elevator that someone else needed it and to make sure the gate was closed. Standing directly beside it, Jack did not react to the bell or Truly's yelling. Whether this was a pre-arranged signal or not, it certainly served to alert anyone upstairs that someone else wanted to use the elevator.

Since Bonnie Ray could've seen Oswald but apparently didn't (he'd have had no fear of retribution from Oswald after the weekend was over, so if he'd seen him he could have said so), and had been upstairs past the time that the parade had been scheduled to go by - meaning that anyone who'd intended to shoot the President would have had to have been in position before the scheduled 12:25 arrival - and Jack did not get run over (or hear or see anything) while standing directly in Oswald's presumed path from the time he'd heard the "backfire" until he'd taken the elevator downstairs after Truly had started upstairs, demonstrates conclusively that Oswald was not upstairs; someone else therefore must have been.

Whoever was upstairs doing the shooting was not constrained by the time needed to meet Officer Baker on the second floor, and thus had nearly all of the time that it took Baker to run inside, wait for the elevator briefly, start upstairs, encounter Oswald, and run up the remaining flights of stairs, stopping to look beyond each landing, before it was necessary to go down ... or possibly up to wait at the sixth floor while Baker & Truly boarded the east elevator (which Truly did not even remark to Baker about its being missing when they got there) and rode it up to the seventh floor, clearing the way for the freight elevator to go down without the chance of encountering Baker on the way.

... And that, my friends, is how it's quite possible that the fatal shot came from the 6th floor southeast window without having been fired by Lee Oswald.

It likewise explains the "elderly Negro" (Bonnie Ray with white stuff in his hair) seen by someone on the street, and it's my bet that it was Jack Dougherty both standing at "parade rest" (his WWII service before his release on medical grounds was guarding aircraft on the ground, i.e., sentry duty) and babysitting Bonnie Ray and the boys on the fifth floor to make sure they didn't go downstairs before the shooting was done, as well as how the shooter(s) got out of the building. Luke Mooney saw them on his way upstairs but apparently never realized it.

In the "Men Who Killed Kennedy", Governor Connelly describes what happened at the time of the shots and talks about Kennedy's brains being on the back of the limousine.

"Governor Connelly says he heard what he thought was a rifle shot, in response to this he turned and looked over his right shoulder, because that was where he describes the sound to have come from, and when he did not see anything because Kennedy had leant forward, he turned back again and then felt a blow to his back which he describes to have felt like a ‘fist’ hitting his back. The force of such a blow bent him over and he noticed he was covered with blood. The shirt was straight afterwards dry-cleaned to remove all traces of any blood. He then remarks, “Oh my God, they’re going to kill us all”. He says it with a calm resilient tone in his voice, as if he thinks whoever is shooting is going to take everyone out, including himself, which he may not have expected.

Connelly states that he also heard another shot and says he saw blood and brain tissue all over the back of the limousine. He states that at this point he knows the president had been fatally hit because Mrs. Kennedy said, “My God, I’ve got his brains in my hand”.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X4QkKkXYtr4

[Pat Speer]

More screen grabs from the previously un-shown footage, demonstrating the similarities between the impact of the tangential shot and Z-313. All these images are discussed in detail at chapter 16c at patspeer.com

[Ron Ecker]

I submit that the violent back/left head-snap is evidence that this tangential wound was made by a bullet entering from the right front, consistent with Hatman's location behind the wooden fence.

I agree that the head-snap is evidence of a frontal shot, though I would say a shot from more in front, as from the south end of the overpass.

Lone nutters (and perhaps Pat and others?) think that this head-snap is a "neuromuscular reaction." But I think that the only neuromuscular reaction involved is the lone nutters' sphincters tightening whenever they see that head snap.

[Pamela Brown]

I submit that the violent back/left head-snap is evidence that this tangential wound was made by a bullet entering from the right front, consistent with Hatman's location behind the wooden fence.

I agree that the head-snap is evidence of a frontal shot, though I would say a shot from more in front, as from the south end of the overpass.

Lone nutters (and perhaps Pat and others?) think that this head-snap is a "neuromuscular reaction." But I think that the only neuromuscular reaction involved is the lone nutters' sphincters tightening whenever they see that head snap.

In Z312 the back of JFK's head is facing Zapruder. The right side of his head would not be accessible to a SN shooter.

The inclusion of a rigid neck in the Target Car tests presents a whole new set of issues. Gary Mack is willing to make excuses and expect everyone to grant him leeway, when, in fact, DC has created a new set of parameters for a test. The peculiar movement of JFK's head at Z313, and his torso as well, are critical to determining where that shot came from.

[Pamela Brown]

Did anyone capture a copy or stills of the fourth shot clip in its brief appearance at youtube?

Here are some stills

Duncan

These are excellent. Thank you. What program did you use to do this?

[Pamela Brown]

Pamela, over the last several years I have studied the head wounds and wound ballistics more than any other researcher I know. This study made clear to me that the shot at frame 313 did not hit Kennedy on the back of the head, and was a tangential shot hitting Kennedy on the side of the head, just as originally proposed by Dr. Clark in Dallas. Gary Mack, presumably, knows of my studies, as he follows this forum and has sent me many e-mails regarding my posts. I find it hard to believe that he didn't recognize that the explosion of bone from this "missed" shot mirrored the explosion shown in the Z-film, and supported my conclusions.

Accordingly, I'd like to think this clip's re-emergence from the dust-bin had something to do with Gary's desire to sneak this info out into the light. If so, I'm deeply appreciative.

If you are an expert on the headwound then you cannot be unaware of the debate over where the Z313 bullet entered JFK's skull. This is the issue at hand with this clip, as the fact that the shooter did not hit the mark set by GM and the DC producer was probably what caused them to consign this test to the sidelines. It may not have had the 'blood spatter' that they were looking for either. However, you and I are in agreement that this test is important; it is not the 'missed shot' it is the fourth test, and it deserves examination. Of course, now I want to see all their tests -- they must have run a number of preliminary tests with inexpensive heads or melons or something.

Are you trying to say you think GM is a closet CT after all, sneaking in info that he knows the buffs will pull out and run with? Or is it that by his hubris and maybe arrogance that there are so many gaping holes in this show?

[Ron Ecker]

In Z312 the back of JFK's head is facing Zapruder. The right side of his head would not be accessible to a SN shooter.

I don't agree. I would say that the back of his head is turned toward Zapruder, not facing him. And it is this position of the head that makes the right side of the head accessible to a south knoll shooter. If the back of his head was "facing" Zapruder, the right side of his head would be even more accessible - it would be facing a south knoll shooter.

[Chris Davidson]

How long does it take for brain debris to disappear from the DC film?

The Z film?

chris

[Duke Lane]

I have no particular qualms about the fatal shot - or any or all of them - having come from the 6th floor southeast window. If it could be shown with 100% certainty that this is indeed the case, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger.

The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there ....

Great post, however, I would change it somewhat to confirm to my unwavering belief that Oswald was simply the fall guy.

My version would be "the same, only a little different". I have also including Connelly's statement which makes it impossible not to believe in some kind of frontal shot.

Tech puts JFK conspiracy theories to rest

Sixth floor of book depository, not the grassy knoll, was origin of lethal shot

Although there is ample evidence to prove shots from the front, we know Kennedy was also shot at and hit from behind, so lets just say that some of the shots from behind came from the 6th floor southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building.

With that in mind, even if it could be shown with 100% certainty that shots did come from the southeast window of the Texas School Book Depository Building, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger.

The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there ....

In the "Men Who Killed Kennedy", Governor Connelly describes what happened at the time of the shots and talks about Kennedy's brains being on the back of the limousine.

"Governor Connelly says he heard what he thought was a rifle shot, in response to this he turned and looked over his right shoulder, because that was where he describes the sound to have come from, and when he did not see anything because Kennedy had leant forward, he turned back again and then felt a blow to his back which he describes to have felt like a 'fist' hitting his back. The force of such a blow bent him over and he noticed he was covered with blood. The shirt was straight afterwards dry-cleaned to remove all traces of any blood. He then remarks, "Oh my God, they're going to kill us all". He says it with a calm resilient tone in his voice, as if he thinks whoever is shooting is going to take everyone out, including himself, which he may not have expected.

Connelly states that he also heard another shot and says he saw blood and brain tissue all over the back of the limousine. He states that at this point he knows the president had been fatally hit because Mrs. Kennedy said, "My God, I've got his brains in my hand".

All well and good except twice quoting my post in full, the second seemingly as your own words. Tsk, tsk.

[Pat Speer]

If you are an expert on the headwound then you cannot be unaware of the debate over where the Z313 bullet entered JFK's skull. This is the issue at hand with this clip, as the fact that the shooter did not hit the mark set by GM and the DC producer was probably what caused them to consign this test to the sidelines. It may not have had the 'blood spatter' that they were looking for either. However, you and I are in agreement that this test is important; it is not the 'missed shot' it is the fourth test, and it deserves examination. Of course, now I want to see all their tests -- they must have run a number of preliminary tests with inexpensive heads or melons or something.

Are you trying to say you think GM is a closet CT after all, sneaking in info that he knows the buffs will pull out and run with? Or is it that by his hubris and maybe arrogance that there are so many gaping holes in this show?

Pamela, in the review of the program in chapter 16c of my webpage, I criticize Mack and the program for a number of things, including their not explaining to their viewers that their test casts doubt that the bullet hit at the cowlick entrance--an entrance invented out of necessity years after the shooting in order to explain the purported lack of a bullet path connecting the EOP entrance and the exit on the cerebrum, but confirmed by no one who actually saw the body.

As far as your suggestion that the supposed exit location was not accessible from the SN, I assure you this is incorrect. One of the little realized facts about the assassination is that JFK's head was tilted 25 degrees or so to its left at the moment of the head shot. This puts the area above his ear--the presumed exit location--near the top of his head, and accessible to a shot fired from above and behind. The confusion on this point comes from people studying Kennedy's position in z-312, a frame filmed from Zapruder's location 10 degrees or so above Kennedy. Kennedy is tilted 15 degrees or so from Zapruder, which means he's tilted about 25 degrees from horizontal. This fact is confirmed by the Moorman photo.

As far as Gary Mack's status as a CT--I take the man at his word when he says that he is still a CT. But you are right in that his television appearances seem to indicate the opposite. In this most recent program, he was instrumental in deceiving the audience on a number of points. He was used to hide that Nellie thought the first shot hit. He was used to hide that the witnesses standing in front of the TSBD thought the first shot came from west of the building. He was used to suggest there was an innocent explanation for the movement of Kennedy's head wound. And he makes up lame excuses when the tests performed for the show cast doubt on the official findings, and the theories of Baden and Sturdivan et al.

This is why I'd like to think he pushed for the release of the footage of the third shot. I'd like to think Gary's been playing footsie with these guys for a reason (access) and that he's not just playing with them to get a small taste of fame.

[Pamela Brown]

As far as your suggestion that the supposed exit location was not accessible from the SN, I assure you this is incorrect. One of the little realized facts about the assassination is that JFK's head was tilted 25 degrees or so to its left at the moment of the head shot. This puts the area above his ear--the presumed exit location--near the top of his head, and accessible to a shot fired from above and behind. The confusion on this point comes from people studying Kennedy's position in z-312, a frame filmed from Zapruder's location 10 degrees or so above Kennedy. Kennedy is tilted 15 degrees or so from Zapruder, which means he's tilted about 25 degrees from horizontal. This fact is confirmed by the Moorman photo.

What information did you use to come up with your assumption? At what Z frame are you placing the Moorman?