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JFK: Inside the Target Car


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I am confused here and seek clarification. Didn't someone recently post a correspondence from Mack whereas Gary still supported the evidence in Jack White's Badge Man work ... How is that maintaining a cover-up???

Also, How does Mack control the programs that are produced when there have been times that they were produced despite Mack pulling out of them because they were not being scientifically done???

Thanks for any clarification that anyone may have to offer.

This show is supposed to deal some sort of new threat to the CT community according to an email of Gary Mack's that someone posted on aaj. Also, in the press release it is clear that the DC is hurling down a gauntlet at the CT community and expects to deliver a blow from which it cannot recover.

Based on my experiences with this show it is my thinking that this "never-seen-before thing" Gary is hinting at may include the 'conversion' of Gary Mack from someone who at least said some CT things to someone who now follows the party line. Any recent posts of his may be related to setting up his 'conversion' from casual-CT to full-blown LNT. I could be wrong, but I am anticipating his functioning as some sort of a false piper, to try to lead the CTs forever into LNT territory.

Gary Mack is the go-to person for the media. All the shows that are developed go through him at one point or another. Even the SPEED Channel documentary in 2004, which had virtually nothing to do with the TSBD and was a conspiracy-based program included GM. It is my thinking that GM does what he is told and says what he is told to say by those in charge of the ongoing coverup. I would be delighted to be mistaken. I'm just trying to give a heads-up. Feel free to criticize me after the show airs.

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I'm guessing the program is gonna show some tests demonstrating that Kennedy's head wounds, as officially interpreted, are incompatible with a shot from the grassy knoll. They are then gonna claim they've proved that no shot came from the front, and thus that there was no conspiracy. What they won't say is that the vast majority of CTs, for many years now, have made this very same claim--that the head wounds (as officially interpreted) are incompatible with a shot from the front. CTs of course take from this that the official interpretation is incorrect. I'd be surprised if this program gets into this.

So Don, what contributions did you make to the program?

Just after making this post, NBC ran a report on the upcoming program. The blurb they showed said exactly what I thought it was gonna say--that we tested shots from the front, blah blah blah, and they show the shot must have come from behind. But did they get a piece of bone to explode from the skull and land 100 feet away? I'd bet my life they did not.

I can pretty much guarantee they'll claim they replicated JFK's head wounds, when they did not.

Edited by Pat Speer
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For the record, NBC Nightly News tonight plugged the planned Discovery Channel airing, with reporter Pete Williams describing new set of tests that chose four locations from which JFK could have been shot. Two of them were ruled out because the shot would have been impossible given the location of the limousine, the other two being the Grassy Knoll and the Depository building. The conclusion, said Williams, was that the shot had to come from the Depository. I think he said they based the conclusion on the nature of the wounds suffered by JFK. No further explanation or detail was offered. I wasn't taking notes, but Gary Mack was shown in brief clip, seeming to agree with the conclusions.

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For the record, NBC Nightly News tonight plugged the planned Discovery Channel airing, with reporter Pete Williams describing new set of tests that chose four locations from which JFK could have been shot. Two of them were ruled out because the shot would have been impossible given the location of the limousine, the other two being the Grassy Knoll and the Depository building. The conclusion, said Williams, was that the shot had to come from the Depository. I think he said they based the conclusion on the nature of the wounds suffered by JFK. No further explanation or detail was offered. I wasn't taking notes, but Gary Mack was shown in brief clip, seeming to agree with the conclusions.

Yes, this is the spin. There are a number of problems with their assertions, the first one being that the premise of the test falls into the fallacy of false alternatives. Next, it looks like they will try to mix scenarios -- WC, HSCA, and now Don R. has had some of his work added. If there is an assumption that all these sources of information are in agreement, that alone would be a serious error.

It seems logical that Gary will be a 'convert' in the show, going from stated belief in the badgeman theory to becoming 'convinced' that the shot was fired from the TSBD.

The higher bar that they make claim to is that they think they have 're-proven' the WCR. That is simply ludicrous. For one thing, it would be GIGO. For another, the prior programs in this area were unsuccessful in their attempts to successfully demonstrate their claim.

Interestingly, we seem to be observing yet another offering of the ongoing cover-up.

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I am anxious to see this for a number of reasons. For one thing, I am interested in seeing how they interpret the blood splatter differently than Sherry G. I would also like to see where exactly they place the rear entry wound: those unfamiliar with the LN world may not realize this, but the location of a supposed rear entry wound now really divides the LN community.

I do, however, have a big problem with what I have read thus far, namely, their decision to use a MC rifle in shooting from all of the locations. Who says the shot -- even a rear entry-- had to come from an MC rifle, or, for that matter, from normal FMJ ammo. There are ways of adjusting even FMJ MC rounds to get them to "behave" like varminting rounds, to my understanding. And did they test a double head shot? That is one of the most common theories.

This is to say nothing of how they interpret the head wounds to begin with, a la Pat. I know Pat and John Hunt have different interpretations, even from each other. The HSCA differed from the WC to some degree. Heck, even the HSCA's own experts had serious disagreements, ie Larry Angel.

I am also a bit skeptical of even their interpretation of their own results. Anyone who has seen the Discovery Channel Magic Bullet show knows that they got a radically deformed bullet from their simulation and then went into a bizarro world where this radically deformed bullet suddenly became proof of the SBT.

-Stu

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More idiocy from DC and more idiocy on here in regards to the subject itself.

“Gary Mack blah blah , Discovery Channel is a CIA shill etc etc”.

Who cares.

if so, start a thread and prove it.

Where does this “blood spatter” evidence come from?

The Z Film?

Oh that’s some high quality eight mm they are dealing with there. I would set a case up using that.

“You Honour, these amorphous pixels here indicate that....”

“This blurry mess here of a fourth generation print indicate that...”

I could have it thrown out of court as a non expert witness.

Eyewitness testimony?

I will leave that right where it is because that is what it is. Unreliable, unprovable and 99.9% of the time in regards to this case, coming from someone who wants attention..

“Well gosh darn, I seen this here puff of red come up from over yonder there and well, gee whiz..”

Pictures of the limo?

Well being that most are black and white and the car was cleaned at Parkland, that’s about as convincing to me as the bible telling me Moses parted the Red Sea and came out the other side.

There are colour pics but none convincing enough to tell me someone could deduce with any level of certainty what the “blood spatter” trajectories were.

Furthermore, this is all shot to hell as soon as we add things like the velocity of the car and wind, which, we don’t have any clue on in an empirical sense and in their respective relation to each other. We know the approximate speed of the limo from the films. Anything else is pure crapjecture, as is most of the stuff I read on here.

Lets see the real stuff, the real thinking.

Using blood spatter in the first place as any kind of tool of discerning the shooter is like kicking a bowl of jello off a picnic table and then concluding it was a size ten shoe that did it. Great. Who’s shoe was it? Who paid the guy in that shoe and what was his name?

Then we have people on here going off track, off course and the usual Gary Mack, Jack White said this fiasco going on. I might not agree with some of Jacks stuff, but he seems polite and interesting. Always interesting that Jack White. But not something I would bring up when discussing a documentary on blood spatter.

Lemme sum it up for you;

this documentary is garbage with faulty science, bad tech and pulled off by people I wouldn’t let bake a cake with a full set of instructions supervised by a team of Chefs from the finest pastry places in Europe.

It has reached it’s intended audience; people who buy toilet paper.

Now lets go back to bickering pointlessly about minutiae PLEASE......

Oh and don’t forget to watch the show so they can sell you more stuff...

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I am also a bit skeptical of even their interpretation of their own results. Anyone who has seen the Discovery Channel Magic Bullet show knows that they got a radically deformed bullet from their simulation and then went into a bizarro world where this radically deformed bullet suddenly became proof of the SBT.

-Stu

The Magic Bullet's path is another question that might be raised when this thing airs. In one of the clips shown by NBC of this reportedly "exact" re-creation of the limo and where its occupants were seated, it appeared to be clear that JFK was seated much closer to the center of the vehicle than was Connally, and that the imaginary line from the 6th Floor window to Connally's rib cage was anything but straight. I could be wrong because of my brief exposure to the clip, but that's the way it appeared.

-REC

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The Magic Bullet's path is another question that might be raised when this thing airs. In one of the clips shown by NBC of this reportedly "exact" re-creation of the limo and where its occupants were seated, it appeared to be clear that JFK was seated much closer to the center of the vehicle than was Connally, and that the imaginary line from the 6th Floor window to Connally's rib cage was anything but straight. I could be wrong because of my brief exposure to the clip, but that's the way it appeared.

-REC

Beyond the Magic Bullet, another DC offering, discusses the SBT. This new show focuses on the fatal headshot at Z313. They seem to be blithely ignorant of the high bar they have set for themselves in the press release. The axiom of their test falls prey to the fallacy of false assumptions, they have used different Z313 scenarios (maybe not realizing that, for example, Z313 is in confict with the HSCA angle of JFK's head, little things like that). There will be a lot to analyze, for anyone with the time and stomach to do so.

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The board is now available where you can post comments to this show:

http://blogs.discovery.com/jfk/

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I just watched the preview shown on NBC (taped from Thursday). The shots of the replica limo are great, but the logic is not. They are taking a WC stance, eg "Did LHO act alone?" which in itself falls prey to the fallacy of false alternatives. A more objective assumption might be "what happened?"

When I was involved in the show I did what I could to offer them advice outside of the narrow area of research in which they tried to dump me, talking with the producer Robert Erickson about issues of logic. I did the best I could to discuss sticking to one scenario or another for a test (that was part of the failure of their "SBT" test in BTMB). Everything seemed to fall on deaf ears.

By the preview it looks as though they only examined a few possible locations for shots. They then may try to claim that they have exhausted the possibilities. That again is false logic.

So, they are taking a very narrow stance and trying to re-prove the WCR. Of course, now they have Gary Mack as a living version of Earl Warren, who can then counsel all the innocent newbies from his post at the TSBD/6th FM.

Not since Posner has there been such hubris. Or is it just job security in these difficult times? :-0

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I have no particular qualms about the fatal shot - or any or all of them - having come from the 6th floor southeast window. If it could be shown with 100% certainty that this is indeed the case, that does nothing toward proving whose finger was on the trigger.

The proof that Oswald was not there is the fact that none of the four men upstairs who were on the fifth and/or sixth floors said that they had seen him there, which they absolutely must have if he was there. Bonnie Ray Williams was on the sixth floor to within three minutes of the shooting, in a position where he would have seen - and probably did see - whoever was in the "sniper's nest" area. Jack Dougherty was standing "ten feet west of the west elevator" - that is, directly in the path of the fleeing assassin (which scenario was only necessary if Oswald was the shooter having to hurry downstairs to meet Baker & Truly in the second floor lunchroom within 90 seconds) - and was not run over by Oswald as he had to have been.

Hank Norman and Junior Jarman did not go upstairs until after they had heard - either directly from a police radio, or through the word spreading through the crowd - that the Presidential parade was on Main Street. The earliest that could have been was 12:22, or possibly as late as 12:26. They then walked around the TSBD via Houston Street and rode the freight elevator to the fifth floor. Bonnie Ray joined them after they had arrived at the windows, and immediately after he had left the sixth floor.

Both elevators were on the fifth floor, according to the testimony of Roy Truly, who had looked up the shaft and seen the bottoms of both elevators at the same level after entering the building behind Officer Baker, and before the two of them began their ascent by stair. The east-side passenger elevator could only be operated by someone inside the elevator car; the freight elevator, while able to be called from another floor, would not operate if the gate was open. Truly was unable to call either elevator to the first floor, thus indicating that the freight elevator gate was open. When Baker & Truly reached the fifth floor, the freight elevator was gone.

Jack Dougherty himself testified to his location at the time he heard "a backfire," and that he was "getting stock" on both the fifth and sixth floors. Since the only other persons known to be upstairs - the "three blind mice" at the front windows - were away from the elevators. While any could have left the gate open (despite Jarman's testimony that he'd closed it upon exiting), Jack's proximity to the west-side freight elevator - "ten feet west of the west elevator" - his "getting stock," and his admission that he'd ridden the freight elevator downstairs after hearing the "backfire," does more than simply suggest that it was Jack who'd had the elevator gate open.

When Roy Truly saw the elevators upstairs, he not only yelled up for it, but also rang a bell that was used to alert anyone using the elevator that someone else needed it and to make sure the gate was closed. Standing directly beside it, Jack did not react to the bell or Truly's yelling. Whether this was a pre-arranged signal or not, it certainly served to alert anyone upstairs that someone else wanted to use the elevator.

Since Bonnie Ray could've seen Oswald but apparently didn't (he'd have had no fear of retribution from Oswald after the weekend was over, so if he'd seen him he could have said so), and had been upstairs past the time that the parade had been scheduled to go by - meaning that anyone who'd intended to shoot the President would have had to have been in position before the scheduled 12:25 arrival - and Jack did not get run over (or hear or see anything) while standing directly in Oswald's presumed path from the time he'd heard the "backfire" until he'd taken the elevator downstairs after Truly had started upstairs, demonstrates conclusively that Oswald was not upstairs; someone else therefore must have been.

Whoever was upstairs doing the shooting was not constrained by the time needed to meet Officer Baker on the second floor, and thus had nearly all of the time that it took Baker to run inside, wait for the elevator briefly, start upstairs, encounter Oswald, and run up the remaining flights of stairs, stopping to look beyond each landing, before it was necessary to go down ... or possibly up to wait at the sixth floor while Baker & Truly boarded the east elevator (which Truly did not even remark to Baker about its being missing when they got there) and rode it up to the seventh floor, clearing the way for the freight elevator to go down without the chance of encountering Baker on the way.

... And that, my friends, is how it's quite possible that the fatal shot came from the 6th floor southeast window without having been fired by Lee Oswald.

It likewise explains the "elderly Negro" (Bonnie Ray with white stuff in his hair) seen by someone on the street, and it's my bet that it was Jack Dougherty both standing at "parade rest" (his WWII service before his release on medical grounds was guarding aircraft on the ground, i.e., sentry duty) and babysitting Bonnie Ray and the boys on the fifth floor to make sure they didn't go downstairs before the shooting was done, as well as how the shooter(s) got out of the building. Luke Mooney saw them on his way upstairs but apparently never realized it.

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