The tear in JFK's shirt

[James R Gordon]

I know that Harold Weisberg stated that these tears were made by the surgeons at Parkland. Is anyone able to point me where in his work is the reference to this point? I am having a hard job finding it.

Also does anyone have a quality copy of the shirt in colour? If possible I would like both sides of the shirt.

Thanks.

James.

[David Andrews]

I know that Harold Weisberg stated that these tears were made by the surgeons at Parkland. Is anyone able to point me where in his work is the reference to this point? I am having a hard job finding it.

Also does anyone have a quality copy of the shirt in colour? If possible I would like both sides of the shirt.

Thanks.

James.

I'm not sure about the quality, but --

[James R Gordon]

I know that Harold Weisberg stated that these tears were made by the surgeons at Parkland. Is anyone able to point me where in his work is the reference to this point? I am having a hard job finding it.

Also does anyone have a quality copy of the shirt in colour? If possible I would like both sides of the shirt.

Thanks.

James.

I'm not sure about the quality, but --

Thanks David. I assume the black dot is the area of the bullet's entrance. It certainly is around the right position.

I am still trying to track down the Weisberg reference. Hopefully if I don't find it some will be able to point me to it.

Again thanks for the image.

James.

[Charles Drago]

The tears in question are at the collar button and on the tie knot.

[Bernice Moore]

Hi James:

Tears, cuts.....Perhaps this is what you are after....?

B.....

[Dave Curbow]

I know that Harold Weisberg stated that these tears were made by the surgeons at Parkland. Is anyone able to point me where in his work is the reference to this point? I am having a hard job finding it.

Also does anyone have a quality copy of the shirt in colour? If possible I would like both sides of the shirt.

Thanks.

James.

Mr. Gordon,

Post Mortem, pages 331 and following may be what you are looking for.

Dave

[David Andrews]

Robert Sam Anson's 1975 book "They've killed the President" had the first photos I ever saw of the shirt and of the necktie with a nick in the knot - both, I think, in color. Not all editions may have the same qualty photo, though (I have, packed away, the first paperback printing). Try a public library - it was a popular and very worthwhile book in its day.

Now that I look at the photo I attached, the hole looks close to the collar center, meaning closer to the spine than recorded, unless his shirt shifted and his coat rode up and his back brace snagged the fabric...you know the drill.

I believe photos of the shirt, tie, and jacket are popular items of research at NARA, so their site may lead you to links. I'd like to see the necktie knot again - could you post it if you find it?

[Bernice Moore]

James:

A few more.....

B...

Edited December 19, 2008 by Bernice Moore

[James R Gordon]

James:

A few more.....

B...

Thanks Bernice for these images. They are very helpful

James.

[James R Gordon]

I know that Harold Weisberg stated that these tears were made by the surgeons at Parkland. Is anyone able to point me where in his work is the reference to this point? I am having a hard job finding it.

Also does anyone have a quality copy of the shirt in colour? If possible I would like both sides of the shirt.

Thanks.

James.

Mr. Gordon,

Post Mortem, pages 331 and following may be what you are looking for.

Dave

Thanks Dave. It is not quite what I am looking for, but it is an excellent point.

Now that I have had time to think about it, I am not sure the point is in Weisberg.

I think it was another researcher who commented that someone at Parkland had informed Weisberg that the cuts were made at Parkland.

I just can't remember where that reference was.

James.

[James R Gordon]

Robert Sam Anson's 1975 book "They've killed the President" had the first photos I ever saw of the shirt and of the necktie with a nick in the knot - both, I think, in color. Not all editions may have the same qualty photo, though (I have, packed away, the first paperback printing). Try a public library - it was a popular and very worthwhile book in its day.

Now that I look at the photo I attached, the hole looks close to the collar center, meaning closer to the spine than recorded, unless his shirt shifted and his coat rode up and his back brace snagged the fabric...you know the drill.

I believe photos of the shirt, tie, and jacket are popular items of research at NARA, so their site may lead you to links. I'd like to see the necktie knot again - could you post it if you find it?

David this is the best image of the tie that I have.

It is not mine, it was posted by someone on this forum for me.

Hope this is what you want.

James.

[William Kelly]

So are the nicks in the tie, shirt and neck made by a bullet or a scaple by someone in the emergency room removing the tie and shirt?

BK

[James R Gordon]

So are the nicks in the tie, shirt and neck made by a bullet or a scaple by someone in the emergency room removing the tie and shirt?

BK

William,

My belief is that they were made by a scaple at parkland hospital. My reasons are as follows.

1. P. 332 of Weisberg's post Mortem he describes the situation and the need to remove the shirt and tie. He suggests there was not time to undo the shirt and tie. He does comment that it was too dangerous to cut the collar button and that, that one was undone. It is not evidence but rational logical explanation

2. On P. 598 of Post Mortem [ where I found the quote I had been searching for ] Weisberg comments that Dr. Carrico confirmed his speculation.

3. On the same page he refers to Carrico's response to a question by Dulles. It is in volume 3. Basically it goes like this:-

Dulles asks where the wound was on on the throat. Carrico says near the tie. Then Carrico points on his neck to where the wound was. Dulles then says so you are pointing to a place above the shirt. Carrico says yes.

4. The importance of this point is exactly who Dr. Carrico is with regard to the parkland treatment of JFK: he was the first doctor to see him. And he was the first to see this wound and he saw it was above the shirt. Perry came in shortly afterwards and did the tracheotomy.

I don't think it is either possible or logical to consider that this bullet could cause the nick. Although the entry wound was near the shirt and tie I believe it was sufficiently above the shirt for it to be impossible to touch the tie. I believe Weisberg is right, it was done by the doctors as they were desperately removing Kennedy's clothes.

James.

[William Kelly]

So are the nicks in the tie, shirt and neck made by a bullet or a scaple by someone in the emergency room removing the tie and shirt?

BK

William,

My belief is that they were made by a scaple at parkland hospital. My reasons are as follows.

1. P. 332 of Weisberg's post Mortem he describes the situation and the need to remove the shirt and tie. He suggests there was not time to undo the shirt and tie. He does comment that it was too dangerous to cut the collar button and that, that one was undone. It is not evidence but rational logical explanation

2. On P. 598 of Post Mortem [ where I found the quote I had been searching for ] Weisberg comments that Dr. Carrico confirmed his speculation.

3. On the same page he refers to Carrico's response to a question by Dulles. It is in volume 3. Basically it goes like this:-

Dulles asks where the wound was on on the throat. Carrico says near the tie. Then Carrico points on his neck to where the wound was. Dulles then says so you are pointing to a place above the shirt. Carrico says yes.

4. The importance of this point is exactly who Dr. Carrico is with regard to the parkland treatment of JFK: he was the first doctor to see him. And he was the first to see this wound and he saw it was above the shirt. Perry came in shortly afterwards and did the tracheotomy.

I don't think it is either possible or logical to consider that this bullet could cause the nick. Although the entry wound was near the shirt and tie I believe it was sufficiently above the shirt for it to be impossible to touch the tie. I believe Weisberg is right, it was done by the doctors as they were desperately removing Kennedy's clothes.

James.

The nick in the tie and the nick in the shirt were done by doctors removing Kennedy's clothes, but what about the nick in the neck, a pre-existing wound where the trec was made? That too?

BK

[James R Gordon]

So are the nicks in the tie, shirt and neck made by a bullet or a scaple by someone in the emergency room removing the tie and shirt?

BK

William,

My belief is that they were made by a scaple at parkland hospital. My reasons are as follows.

1. P. 332 of Weisberg's post Mortem he describes the situation and the need to remove the shirt and tie. He suggests there was not time to undo the shirt and tie. He does comment that it was too dangerous to cut the collar button and that, that one was undone. It is not evidence but rational logical explanation

2. On P. 598 of Post Mortem [ where I found the quote I had been searching for ] Weisberg comments that Dr. Carrico confirmed his speculation.

3. On the same page he refers to Carrico's response to a question by Dulles. It is in volume 3. Basically it goes like this:-

Dulles asks where the wound was on on the throat. Carrico says near the tie. Then Carrico points on his neck to where the wound was. Dulles then says so you are pointing to a place above the shirt. Carrico says yes.

4. The importance of this point is exactly who Dr. Carrico is with regard to the parkland treatment of JFK: he was the first doctor to see him. And he was the first to see this wound and he saw it was above the shirt. Perry came in shortly afterwards and did the tracheotomy.

I don't think it is either possible or logical to consider that this bullet could cause the nick. Although the entry wound was near the shirt and tie I believe it was sufficiently above the shirt for it to be impossible to touch the tie. I believe Weisberg is right, it was done by the doctors as they were desperately removing Kennedy's clothes.

James.

The nick in the tie and the nick in the shirt were done by doctors removing Kennedy's clothes, but what about the nick in the neck, a pre-existing wound where the trec was made? That too?

BK

William,

I don't understand. What “nick in the neck” are you referring to?

James