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Did Zapruder take "the Zapruder film"?


Guest James H. Fetzer
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Craig,

I'm pretty sure the residents of Zimbabwe recognize Elm St. goes downhill.

You encourage others to recreate examples for comparison, yet when the result is starkly different, you write it off as "filmed by an amateur".

Please show us your pedestal footage.

In fact, the offer extends to everyone.

Let's see what other amateur/ even professional results look like.

And while we're waiting, I'll provide them with another comparison example(from the pedestal) of a car traveling downhill.

A Z difference of 6 degrees CCW at this point.

Follow that curbline.

chris

Unlike you I'm not ignorant enough to think a comparison of the panning ability of two different people many years apart has any validity. Your expectations of the performance by Zpruder was unmet, BFD! Your expectaions are meaningless. You ever spend any time working in a photofinishing house that did consumer film processing? Ever stood at the end of the dryer and watched the thousands of cut off heads, tilted horizons, poorly focused or photos marred by massive camera movementt? If you have that experience then your opinion and conclusion might have a TINY BIT OF WEIGHT...TINY! However it would carry NO weight as evidence ....

You are down to 50 cents.

BTW Chris appears your wonderful recreation frame might be 3-5 degrees over rotated in the clockwise direction IF the signs and posts are anywhere near true vertical. Great panning !

Edited by Craig Lamson
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Follow that curbline.

chris

Help me out here ... what exactly are you saying now? I shot Groden at the Hudson location and overlaid it onto Zapruder's frame and it matched. It was shown in the Mystery Man in the Pyracantha Bush study.

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Craig,

I'm pretty sure the residents of Zimbabwe recognize Elm St. goes downhill.

You encourage others to recreate examples for comparison, yet when the result is starkly different, you write it off as "filmed by an amateur".

Please show us your pedestal footage.

In fact, the offer extends to everyone.

Let's see what other amateur/ even professional results look like.

And while we're waiting, I'll provide them with another comparison example(from the pedestal) of a car traveling downhill.

A Z difference of 6 degrees CCW at this point.

Follow that curbline.

chris

Unlike you I'm not ignorant enough to think a comparison of the panning ability of two different people many years apart has any validity. Your expectations of the performance by Zpruder was unmet, BFD! Your expectaions are meaningless. You ever spend any time working in a photofinishing house that did consumer film processing? Ever stood at the end of the dryer and watched the thousands of cut off heads, tilted horizons, poorly focused or photos marred by massive camera movementt? If you have that experience then your opinion and conclusion might have a TINY BIT OF WEIGHT...TINY! However it would carry NO weight as evidence ....

You are down to 50 cents.

BTW Chris appears your wonderful recreation frame might be 3-5 degrees over rotated in the clockwise direction IF the signs and posts are anywhere near true vertical. Great panning !

Craig,

Not really interested in conjecture. Or your film processing scenario's.

It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I guess the focal point of Zapruders film, according to you, should be street signs, poles etc.etc.

That's about what we get from the film.

Until you show us some footage from your pedestal experiments, there is nothing more to say.

In regards to verticality, well the pole is and the road heads downward.

chris

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Craig,

I'm pretty sure the residents of Zimbabwe recognize Elm St. goes downhill.

You encourage others to recreate examples for comparison, yet when the result is starkly different, you write it off as "filmed by an amateur".

Please show us your pedestal footage.

In fact, the offer extends to everyone.

Let's see what other amateur/ even professional results look like.

And while we're waiting, I'll provide them with another comparison example(from the pedestal) of a car traveling downhill.

A Z difference of 6 degrees CCW at this point.

Follow that curbline.

chris

Unlike you I'm not ignorant enough to think a comparison of the panning ability of two different people many years apart has any validity. Your expectations of the performance by Zpruder was unmet, BFD! Your expectaions are meaningless. You ever spend any time working in a photofinishing house that did consumer film processing? Ever stood at the end of the dryer and watched the thousands of cut off heads, tilted horizons, poorly focused or photos marred by massive camera movementt? If you have that experience then your opinion and conclusion might have a TINY BIT OF WEIGHT...TINY! However it would carry NO weight as evidence ....

You are down to 50 cents.

BTW Chris appears your wonderful recreation frame might be 3-5 degrees over rotated in the clockwise direction IF the signs and posts are anywhere near true vertical. Great panning !

Craig,

Not really interested in conjecture. Or your film processing scenario's.

It has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

I guess the focal point of Zapruders film, according to you, should be street signs, poles etc.etc.

That's about what we get from the film.

Until you show us some footage from your pedestal experiments, there is nothing more to say.

In regards to verticality, well the pole is and the road heads downward.

chris

Is the pole vertical? Really? You REALLY sure about that? You have the camera level?

You are correct, there really IS nothing more to say. You posted a comparison that had no meaning in regards tot he Zapruder film and you got your hat handed to you. Its was a comparison and CONCLUSION SO STUPID that it eclipses even the worst work of your fellow traveler in LALA land, Jack White.

I'm so happy you got to shoot some film from the pedestal, MAYBE you can find some use for it that has actual value, but sady, your attempts here are an utter failure.

Sorry you are broke now.

Edited by Craig Lamson
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For those interested,

Here's a segment from one of the many I took, while on the pedestal with a B/H 414.

http://72.130.171.242:8400/8126C/CAR.mp4

chris

BTW Chris, what the heck did you do to the scan of rhar "vertical pole scan? Its rotated clockwise almost 2 degrees based only on the gate edges and the sprocket holes, but then again those are all warped and mis-shaped. In other words you scan is near USELESS. WHo were you trying to fool?

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For those interested,

Here's a segment from one of the many I took, while on the pedestal with a B/H 414.

http://72.130.171.242:8400/8126C/CAR.mp4

chris

BTW Chris, what the heck did you do to the scan of rhar "vertical pole scan? Its rotated clockwise almost 2 degrees based only on the gate edges and the sprocket holes, but then again those are all warped and mis-shaped. In other words you scan is near USELESS. WHo were you trying to fool?

No Craig,

It was exported from one of the many filming segments.

Just like the film provided.

Speaks volumes.

The car goes downhill. The film shows it going downhill. The person filming, pans from left to right and downward, as a car coming towards and past, goes downhill. What a concept.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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For those interested,

Here's a segment from one of the many I took, while on the pedestal with a B/H 414.

http://72.130.171.242:8400/8126C/CAR.mp4

chris

BTW Chris, what the heck did you do to the scan of rhar "vertical pole scan? Its rotated clockwise almost 2 degrees based only on the gate edges and the sprocket holes, but then again those are all warped and mis-shaped. In other words you scan is near USELESS. WHo were you trying to fool?

No Craig,

It was exported from one of the many filming segments.

What frame are you talking about , I was talking about the last one, and its rotat4de and warped, like oyu attempted ot do some pin cushion correction. If htats the case its a no no to post an altered frame without stating it. IN any case he frame is rotated clockwie at least 1.5 degrees and then we really DON'T know what additional rotation is required because the camera isa pointed down. Again pretty useless in the context of this discussion.

Just like the film provided.

Speaks volumes.

Yes it does speak volumes, about the conclusion you are attempting to draw.

The car goes downhill. The film shows it going downhill. The person filming, pans from left to right and downward, as a car coming towards and past, goes downhill. What a concept.

And all the while ROTATING the camera clockwise from level, not unlike the conterclockwise rotation of Zapruders camera. The conclusion...both photographers did a poor job of panning. Nothing more. What a concept......

chris

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Craig,

That frame would be in this segment.

http://72.130.171.242:8400/B2227/1.mp4

I guess I tampered with this too, because I put it in mp4 format so others on the forum can access it.

Sounds like you're reverting to unfounded accusations.

Any other footage you would like to see.

chris

I NEVER make unfound accusations.

The frame YOU posted in post 126 is altereed from its original form. The sprocket holes are a mess, as are the flim gate edges. They are all pincushioned. If you were tr process in PS it would take 4.75 barrel to correct . In addition the frame is rotated clockwise 1.5 degrees or so based ONLY onthe film gate and sprocket hole alignment. More is likely needed since the camera is pointed down. Got it? Your frame is altered and you offerd it as evidence (of what I'm not sure) without disclosing it was altered. That makes you a VERY bad boy Chris and destroys any credibility you may have ever had as an honest broker.

Also your original post of a recreation frame, post 123, again shows the frame rotated about 1.5 degrees clockwise , just based on the gate and sprockets. Lets forget the additional rotation needed to bring the verticals to vertical, just this 1.4 of base rotation makes your downhill street look very level.

Again you were a very bad boy, posting framres rotated out of alingment to bolster your case. Pretty shabby stuff, but not suprising.

Of course aside from destroying whatever credibility you might have had, your entire study and conclusion were just meaningless. You proved that two photographers can shoot a scene with the camera in different rotations to level. Hooray! Meaningless.

Sheesh. What a state CT photo research is in these days.....

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I tried to deliberately mislead everyone by exporting frames from movies I had taken.

Then posted the actual film clips themselves. OK

Then I cut and pasted the frames at a different angle from the sprocket holes. Right

Added the pin-cushioning affect. Sounds good

Put it all back together to try and fool Craig. Didn't work

Dream a little dream.

What does this have to do with Z keeping the limo even close to centerframe at 10mph?

chris

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I tried to deliberately mislead everyone by exporting frames from movies I had taken.

Then posted the actual film clips themselves. OK

Then I cut and pasted the frames at a different angle from the sprocket holes. Right

Added the pin-cushioning affect. Sounds good

Put it all back together to try and fool Craig. Didn't work

Dream a little dream.

What does this have to do with Z keeping the limo even close to centerframe at 10mph?

chris

Hey they are YOUR frames, YOU posted them and the effects I pointed out are REAL. Are you now in denial that the frames are altered from their original state? Your posted the entire frames, SPROCKET HOLES and all , rotated clockwise. Dream a little dream... Can the work you post be trusted any longer? I don't thinnk so.

What does your amateur film have to do with the framing of the film by amateur photographer Zpruder? Why NOTHING of course, which is the entire point, unless we are living in the dream world of Chris Davidson.

Zapruder's framing in his film does not meet your expectations. Fine, but your "expectations" don't amount to a hill of beans in this instance. Nor should they.

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Craig,

You can either have the movie or the frames.

On the left is what it appears as, when playing in Quicktime. Notice the movie controller.

On the right is a snapshot of it.

Your effort to insinuate I have altered my original film is ludicrous.

Now would you care to misinform others about what's between these sprocket holes.

Why the rotation is the same. etc etc etc.

I figured I'd alter these frames too, which I never intended to show. Get Real

No, the frames have not been altered.

Your reading of them is.

chris

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Craig,

You can either have the movie or the frames.

On the left is what it appears as, when playing in Quicktime. Notice the movie controller.

On the right is a snapshot of it.

Your effort to insinuate I have altered my original film is ludicrous.

Now would you care to misinform others about what's between these sprocket holes.

Why the rotation is the same. etc etc etc.

I figured I'd alter these frames too, which I never intended to show. Get Real

No, the frames have not been altered.

Your reading of them is.

chris

So, you are telling EVERYONE, the film you ran through your camera had sprocket holes that were not square with each other or the film edges. You are telling EVERYONE the film ran through the camera ROTATED clockwise.

Fact: The images YOU posted are not the same as the actual film.

Fact: the files were posted by Chris Davidson.

Fact: the files posted are altered.

Fact: Chris claims the frames have not been altered.

Fact: the frames HAVE been altered.....

chris.jpg

Can Chris Davidson be trusted to post unaltered images? NO!

Edited by Craig Lamson
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I guess we need to know what your definition of altered is.

The process of converting 8mm film to a digital image is an alteration.

Which is exactly what was done in this case.

Fact: Chris filmed from pedestal with B/H 414 camera.

Fact: Chris had film developed by "Dwayne's Photo" in Parsons, Kansas. One of the few I could find in the U.S that still develops 8mm film, back in 2004.

Fact: Chris had it converted to DVD by "SunRay Video" in San Diego, CA. http://www.sunrayvideo.com/film_transfer.htm

Fact: Chris imports the VOB files from the DVD into a movie player (Quicktime, etc.etc).

Fact: Chris either exports or screen captures individual frames to post on the forum.

He does not perform interframe rotations.

Perhaps a step in the 8mm to digital format transfer is causing the effects which Craig refers too.

Otherwise, you probably believe I shaved about 1/8 of an inch off the top sprocket hole, which has nothing to do with the street/cars.

chris

Edited by Chris Davidson
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