What Happened In Dallas- Where Does Everyone Stand?

[Guest John Gillespie]

Thanks for all the good responses. I think it's interesting for everyone to see what others believe about the basic issues in this case.

I continue to be fascinated about those who think Tippit might have, or did shoot Oswald, or that Oswald might have fired some shots, or that the single bullet theory is possible, among other things. I'm not casting any dispersions, and certainly don't think this means someone is a disinfo agent.

I am genuinely curious about this. Would those of you who fit into one or more of these categories mind saying if this has always been your belief, or if you once were more of an "extremist" in this regard (like me, for instance)? If your beliefs have evolved in any of these areas, I'd love to know what made them change. Again, this is not to throw suspicion on those whose opinions have changed. We know that researchers can change their views on a particular aspect of this case. Jack White, for instance, was not always a film alterationist.

Thanks again for responding, and I'd love to hear from more of you.

-----------------------------------

Hi Don,

Seems I'm a lone nut (but not a lone nutter) regarding the Tippit shooting. I was the other way for a long time until I got past the selectivity of the referencing of witness quotes and other statements over the years that seem to have an agenda to them. I realized that what I was hearing and reading was so similar to the omissions of the Warren Commission and the lack of challenging witnesses whose testimony was weak but served to further the Commission's lone nut mission. I turned years before I read "With Malice" and started correspondence with Mr. Dale Myers, the author.

All I can say to anyone is please read that book or try some correspondence of your own with Dale. His email address is dalekmyers@comcast.net. Hope it still is active. I think he was overly ambitious and conned a bit before he did his computerized breakdown of the JFK killing, getting a lot of the same scaling and misinformation on surveys that the infamous CBS Special (Walter Cronkite narration) presented. So there it is.

Regards,

JG

[Jack White]

Thanks for all the good responses. I think it's interesting for everyone to see what others believe about the basic issues in this case.

I continue to be fascinated about those who think Tippit might have, or did shoot Oswald, or that Oswald might have fired some shots, or that the single bullet theory is possible, among other things. I'm not casting any dispersions, and certainly don't think this means someone is a disinfo agent.

I am genuinely curious about this. Would those of you who fit into one or more of these categories mind saying if this has always been your belief, or if you once were more of an "extremist" in this regard (like me, for instance)? If your beliefs have evolved in any of these areas, I'd love to know what made them change. Again, this is not to throw suspicion on those whose opinions have changed. We know that researchers can change their views on a particular aspect of this case. Jack White, for instance, was not always a film alterationist.

Thanks again for responding, and I'd love to hear from more of you.

Thanks, Don. I believed the Z film was genuine till in the mid-80s got a set of Groden slides and started

studying each frame, using two slide projectors to show frames side by side. I also read Lifton's footnote

in the paperback Best Evidence where he said he believed the film was altered. I put slides into my

four hour slide show showing what I thought was fakery. Jim Marrs published in his 1989 Crossfire that

I believed the film was altered. By the late 1990s I was convinced the film was not just "altered" but was

almost a complete fabrication.

Up till then I had believed the Z film genuine, as well as the Altgens pix and the Moorman Polaroid. One

by one the list shortened until now I believe virtually every image has been altered...many provably so.

Moorman was last to fall, when in the late 90s I discovered the proof that the upper right corner had been

retouched.

Thanks for your comment.

Jack

[Mark Knight]

While I'm not one of the "Major Players," here are MY thoughts:

- Believe Oswald fired any shots: Not from the 6th floor of the TSBD.

- Believe Oswald killed Tippit: I have serious reservations that he did.

- Believe the single bullet theory is possible: Not as presented by the Warren Commission

- Believe shots were fired from the front, back or both directions: JFK's back wound proves at least one shot from the back. Throat wound suggests very strongly at least one shot from the front.

- Can assess the performance of the Secret Service in Dallas: They failed in their primary mission, to protect the life of the President.

- Think LBJ and/or other high public officials were involved: LBJ certainly was involved after the fact. If "high public officials" include former Vice President Nixon, then I believe he at least had knowledge that there was a plot to kill JFK, though Watergate shows him to be, ultimately, more puppet than puppetmaster. As far as Prescott Bush and his son, George H.W., I think their fingerprints are on the plans as well.

Oswald's presence in the Texas Theater suggests that, as in the old dime-store secret agent novels, Ozzie THOUGHT he was going to meet a contact of some sort there. This would then suggest some level of foreknowledge on Oswald's part, if not as a participant then as someone whose intention was to infiltrate the plot...with instructions to meet his contact at the Texas Theater if/when the fecal matter hit the oscillating rotary cooling device.

[Paul Baker]

Baker wants to become a MAJOR player. But he is only a bit player so far.

Jack

No I don't Jack. I'm not an active researcher - what is there to research? After all, the murder of JFK has been solved beyond all reasonable doubt. I simply find people like you fascinating.

Dale Myers made a convincing, scientific argument for the single bullet theory. To use his own words, I believe he turned it into a single bullet fact. On the reverse side of the coin, we have people like Fetzer and White et al, who simply spray BS about the place. For what purpose I don't know. Perhaps, like Jean Hill and Gordon Arnold and Ed Hofmann et al, they don't care about the truth and just seek attention. After all, flies like to congregate around s**t. Perhaps they just want to sell books. I just can't believe anyone can really be that ignorant of the facts.

Paul.

[Bernice Moore]

WHY SO NASTY PAUL EACH AND EVERY MEMBER IS ENTITLED TO THEIR OPINIONS...AND IMO THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT YOU HAVE DONE SO OR IS THAT JUST A COMMON SIGN OF A BELIEVER OF THE W/C..NO ONE HERE IS IGNORANT FAR FROM IT...B

[Guest Stephen Turner]

BELIEVE OSWALD FIRED ANY SHOTS, he may well have done, but if he did he was not the only shooter in Dallas that day.

BELIEVE OSWALD KILLED TIPPIT, Yes, because by that time he had figured out what was actually going on.

BELIEVE THE SINGLE BULLET THEORY, No, Kennedy and connelly were almost certainly hit by two seperate shots.

Edited February 3, 2010 by Stephen Turner

[Dean Hagerman]

I did not believe in alteration until 1997 when I read "Bloody Treason" by Noel Twyman

I started to look into the Z-film like I never had before, I used my copy of Grodens Assassination Films DVD to check every frame, in fact I have not stopped looking at the Z-film and since 1997 it has been pretty much the only thing I have studied (I still look into other areas, but I learned about everything else prior to 97)

Then "Murder In Dealey Plaza" came out and I bought it right away and read Jack Whites section before anything else

I started looking into all of Jacks claims and agreed with him on most all points

Around this time (I dont remember when) I watched Jacks video on the Hoax of the Century

Again I looked into what Jack had presented and found myself in agrement with him again

When "The Great Zapruder Film Hoax" came out I read it over and over (In fact my copy is falling apart) checking and rechecking, and have been ever since

I did not start out as an alterationist, but I must give credit to first Jack White (Who in fact did state in Crossfire long before I read BT back in 1988 that the Z-film was altered) whos work I took in

Also of course Noel Twyman, Jim Fetzer, David Lifton, David Healy, David Mantik, and Doug Horne

The fact that "some" researchers look down on alterationists does not bother me, in fact I am proud to not only say that I am an alterationist but that the best researchers on the assassination stand tall along with me.

[Paul Baker]

Then "Murder In Dealey Plaza" came out and I bought it right away and read Jack Whites section before anything else

I did exactly the same Dean. Does it not bother you that all of Jack's "studies", including those in that particular book, do not stand up to close scrutiny? Take a long hard look at The Zapruder Waltz, for example. Jack draws outlines around things that he thinks are there, and Marilyn Sitzman becomes some giant lurching monster. I've seen her, and she's not that shape at all. That's my favourite study, because my ten year old nephew saw it and managed to effectively debunk it.

[Jim Root]

What I believe

On November 22, 1963 John F. Kennedy was assassinated!

Since that date a lot of speculation has centered around this case but no one has conclusively proven that their particular theory of the events is true.

There is much speculation from many researhers that can answer each of these posted questions either way....what each person wishes to believe from the conflicting research will slant how they answer those questions and how they view the answers of others.

To me what is essential to the assassination story, whatever else YOU wish to believe is up to you, is that Lee Harvey Oswald worked in the TSBD building where a rifle and three bullet casing were found and that the motorcade was directed to pass that building, the last building it was to pass before backtracking to the Trade Mart lucheon. Lee Harvey Oswald left that building (after shots had been fired weather or not Oswald fired them is irrelevent in many ways) and was later arrested after a police officer was shot and killed.

What is more important to me than who fired what shots is who ran the motorcade past the TSBD building and who would have known that Lee harvey Oswald worked there. Toss in who would have the ability to eliminate evidence that could have shown who knew that Oswald was working at the TSBD building prior to the motorcade route being decided upon and I think we can move this case forward......

If a group of conspirators did assassinate the President (which I now believe they did but will admit that I have not always believed that) the search for those conspirators will not begin with what happened on Nov. 22, 1963! A successful search IMO will only be uncovered by researching what occured in the days, weeks, months, and years preceeding that date as well as what happened after that date. Understanding what brought the conspirators together and what allowed them to accomplish their goal without ever being brought to justice is the key.

Continuous arguing over how many shots were fired and from what direction has brought us no closer to solving this case but seems, perhaps as the conspirators wished, to keep us devided in our research and away from what is really essential:

Who were the conspirators and how did they both plan and accomplish the assassination as well as being positioned to manipulate the Warren Commission?

Jim Root

[John Dolva]

What I believe >Know< -editorial licence taken to show that Jim is a very clear thinker from the point of view of reality perception

On November 22, 1963 John F. Kennedy was assassinated!

Since that date a lot of speculation has centered around this case but no one has conclusively proven that their particular theory of the events is true.

There is much speculation from many researhers that can answer each of these posted questions either way....what each person wishes to believe from the conflicting research will slant how they answer those questions and how they view the answers of others.

(end Know, and I agree 100 % EDIT : darn it, I fell for it again, a theory in the scientific world must mean something completely different in the arts, these are Hypothesis!!!To call them theories instantly discredits them elsewhere.))

To me what is essential to the assassination story, whatever else YOU wish to believe is up to you, is that Lee Harvey Oswald worked in the TSBD building where a rifle and three bullet casing were found and that the motorcade was directed to pass that building, the last building it was to pass before backtracking to the Trade Mart lucheon. Lee Harvey Oswald left that building (after shots had been fired weather or not Oswald fired them is irrelevent in many ways) and was later arrested after a police officer was shot and killed.

It's not irrelevant at all. What do you think the getting to know the real Oswald is all about? (btw just to clear it for me, when was the order to be arrested given?)

What is more important to me than who fired what shots is who ran the motorcade past the TSBD building and who would have known that Lee harvey Oswald worked there. Toss in who would have the ability to eliminate evidence that could have shown who knew that Oswald was working at the TSBD building prior to the motorcade route being decided upon and I think we can move this case forward......

Now this is the pearl. Once again an exact same answer to a very alike question. Poor maligned ole Harry, asittin' staring out of his window cattywampus of the headshot overlooking Dealey Plaza for days on end through seasons, pondering this and pondering that...

Heading back to know

If a group of conspirators did assassinate the President (which I now believe they did but will admit that I have not always believed that) the search for those conspirators will not begin with what happened on Nov. 22, 1963! A successful search IMO will only be uncovered by researching what occured in the days, weeks, months, and years preceeding that date as well as what happened after that date. Understanding what brought the conspirators together and what allowed them to accomplish their goal without ever being brought to justice is the key.

Continuous arguing over how many shots were fired and from what direction has brought us no closer to solving this case but seems, perhaps as the conspirators wished, to keep us devided in our research and away from what is really essential:

Who were the conspirators and how did they both plan and accomplish the assassination as well as being positioned to manipulate the Warren Commission?

Jim, how do you mean manipulate the Presidential Commission? By direct involvement or by exerting pressure, or a mix of that or something else?

Jim Root

Disclaimer : None of the above is in any way shape or form is meant to or imply any way shape or form of ascribing negative qualities to Jim Root. For years we have been at logger heads on various issues arround different matters and also been in complete agreement on other matters and choose to ignore each other on other matters.

Edited February 3, 2010 by John Dolva

[Paul Baker]

Douglass - JFK and the Unspeakable

I bought this last week, and was disappointed to find - yet again - reliance on the usual incredible witnesses. Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffmann, etc. I immediately gave it one star on Amazon as a result.

fake London Tube bombings

Peter, I know someone who was badly injured in one of those attacks. I saw her injuries, there was nothing fake about them. You're a lunatic.

Edited February 4, 2010 by Paul Baker

[Guest Stephen Turner]

Douglass - JFK and the Unspeakable

I bought this last week, and was disappointed to find - yet again - reliance on the usual incredible witnesses. Gordon Arnold, Ed Hoffmann, etc. I immediately gave it one star on Amazon as a result.

fake London Tube bombings

Peter, I know someone who was badly injured in one of those attacks. I saw her injuries, there was nothing fake about them. You're a lunatic.

Paul, I don't think Peter is claiming that the whole scenario was faked, but that other perps, rather than the official one's are to blame. Don't buy it myself.

[Kathleen Collins]

I have not read the others members thoughts yet, as I didn't want anything to influence me.

Kennedy had so many enemies I don't know where to start. In the way it all turned out, much must bear on the shouders of the Cuban Exiles hand in hand with the CIA. Now from books I read in the last year, Bobby Kennedy had his own set of Cuban Exiles.

1. I don't think the majority of these Exiles cared for the United States at all. I think they decided to kill Kennedy out of laziness -- they didn't want another Bay of Pigs. They didn't want to fight Castro alone. Let Kennedy be killed by "Castro" and the US would invade Cuba. So we have people here in 2 camps -- that of Bobby Kennedy and that of the CIA, whom President Kennedy wanted to destroy and scatter to the winds. These 2 camps were of one mind.

2. The CIA at that time were funded by the richest of people -- oil men, bankers. The names: DuPont, Ford, Rockefeller, Morgan, Rothschild, Harriman, Luce, etc. These people financed the assassination, as it was beneficial to them. There were ways in which Kennedy said he was going to change the Federal Reserve, and that would close down the banks.

3. He wanted the Civil Rights bill passed. Do you think Clint Murchison, Jr, liked that? How about the John Birches or the Ku Klux Klan?

4. J.Edgar Hoover was fearful that the Kennedys would fire him. Maybe for not fighting organized crime.

5. Big Business didn't like him (e.g., US Steel, Bell Helicopter, Jimmy Hoffa).

6. Johnson hated Kennedy and heard rumors he wasn't going to be on the ticket in 1964. He had the most to gain by Kennedy's death. Johnson was involved with lobbyist Bobby Baker and the scandals raised by that. Johnson was heading to prison. That very day, Nov.22, 1963, someone (?) was giving testimony, which would reveal Johnson's involvement in chicanery. Johnson, some peope say, was so evil he killed his own sister! But before the testimony got too far, the court closed when the news of Kennedy's death reached them.

No one really knew where Johnson got all his money. Johnson and his little buddy, J. Edgar, were glad to see Kennedy go. Johnson became the President under terrifying conditions for this country. No one was going to upset the apple cart any further. On the 6th floor of the TSBD, a fingerprint was found on a box. I understand cardboard doesn't retain fingerprints for too long. This one turned out to be Mack Wallace's. Mack Wallace was Johnson's friend since schooldays. He was a convicted murderer. He got a 5 year suspended sentence. What was his print doing on a box on the now infamous 6th floor?

7. Then there was Viet Nam. A major issue. Kennedy didn't want to get involved with that country. He felt it was none of our business to go there. The day after his death, he would have signed a document to the effect that the US wasn't going to get involved in their war. Kennedy wasn't a globalist. He was into keeping this country safe and strong; the strongest in the world. Look where we are now.

8. I also feel there was some inducement by the Vatican. The Catholic Diem Bros., the hated rulers of S. Viet Nam, were killed, losing a Catholic nation to communism. Two weeks later our Catholic president was assassinated. I was brought up in that religion. These so-called celibates are right wing. A right wing society who rape little boys and feel sorry for themselves when they're caught. Then they feel persecuted like Jesus. Too much of this went on: legions. I feel Cardinal Spellman knew Kennedy was a dead duck, and that he, Spellman, would again be the most important Catholic in this country.

Those are my opinions. I'm not going to lie for the sake of political correctness.

Kathy C

[Kathleen Collins]

.

No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten).

What about the ones who had silencers on their guns?

Kathy C

[Bernice Moore]

.

No evidence of any other person shooting in Dealey Plaza (most people said they heard three shots. Not eight, or nine, or ten).

What about the ones who had silencers on their guns?

Kathy C

paul here is but one of the many threads found in a search of the forum...on how many shots in the plaza .b

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...ts+dealey+plaza

b..

Edited February 6, 2010 by Bernice Moore