F. Lee Mudd

[Pat Speer]

Photos of red shirt man, who I assume to have been F. Lee Mudd, on the ground with Hudson, and lingering near the steps after the shots... (Thanks to Alex Foyle for posting these on another site). This suggests Mudd was indeed the young man mentioned by Hudson in his testimony.

Edited February 21, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Jack White]

I think your new thread will attract 10,000 views and 150 posts. I think its telling that a WC asst. counsel interviewed "Mr. Hudson" in person, and made a transcript of the questioning "for the record," but that no WC asst. counsel interviewed Jesse Garner....the WC accepted an affadavit from him, and SAIC John W. Rice asked Garner's wife if the Oswald's had attempted to use their telephone. He did not ask Jesse, he did not ask if anyone had called the Garners' phone asking to speak with Oswald.

I think its telling that the FBI went to the Texas State Employment Commission offices and qiustioned IB Hale's wife, Virginia, and Annie Laurie Smith, recording both of their home addresses, and asking Ms. Smith how long she had been employed there, and adding her answer to the record, but when it came to the person they were refered to, the woman who gave Oswald the contact info of Max Clark, the FBI simply wrote down that a "Mrs. Hall" passed that information to Ms. Smith to give to Oswald, but did not speak to him.

Jesse Garner, Virginia Hale, and Annie Laurie Smith all spoke with and interacted with Oswald, but their is no transcript of an asst. WC counsel questioning any of them.

Why, Pat, does your Mr. Mudd get more ink in his FBI interview than Mrs. Williams, mother of Buell Frazier, or Virginia Hale, wife of the manager of General Dynamics Ft. Worth industrial security, a former FBI agent whose two sons were the subject of an August, 1962 burglary of Judith Campbell's apartment, observed in progress by FBI agents?

I don't mean to single you out, Pat, but as Bill Kelly posted on the Mr. & Mrs. Whatitsname thread, what is the point of what has been consuming almost all of the atmosphere in this forum, of late?

I'm hoping that if you do attract 148 other posts, you'll wish you posted this thread at some other time, when it isn't in the midst of the mass obsession with all things visual, here at the JFK Debate forum.

.

[Jack White]

there is an older thread the unknown witness where lee forman did some work on mudd you may be interested, he has him showing in couch..

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.ph...;hl=mudd+forman

b

Thanks, Bernice. One of the reasons I could never figure out Mudd's location was that Don Roberdeau put him in this location on his map. But does that guy look like the owner of a western wear store to you?

Maybe Don will chime in and clear this up.

What does the owner of a western wear store look like?

Having done some shopping in western wear stores, including the legendary Nudies, and having lived among people who dress western style, I can state unequivocally that western wear salespeople and owners usually dress in western wear, and that people who dress in western wear do so most all the time. You live in Texas. You know what I'm talking about.

Exactly...the man on the steps is NOT dressed in western wear. He simply has on a red shirt.

[Jack White]

Pat,

Mudd, Emmett Hudson, Redshirt Man, the "young fellow" from Industrial Blvd., the whole scenario as to who was who and who did what is all very important. It also ties into the Lew Bowers story. Which ties into the Ed Hoffman story. So it's imperative to get it right.

Moving on. . .

A few assumptions you've made. . .

"It was red shirt man who stayed and talked with Hudson on the ground after the shots."

"The other guy at Hudson's left appeared out of nowhere and was gone lickety-split after the shots, and could not have spoken to Hudson during the shooting."

Don't know where you came up with those assumptions. The second one, in particular, is just not true. I know this is the way you honestly see it, but there's apparently more that you haven't considered or even been aware of.

You also said:

"Mudd claimed to have fallen down on the ground after the shots."

Mudd made no such claim. At least, the FBI record makes no such claim of his.

And finally, you said:

". . . we already have a bunch of threads on Moorman in the street etc. I'd like to try and keep this one about Mudd."

I agree. Let's keep it on Mudd. But you also said:

"So I don't see her (Moorman's) lack of an interview with the Sixth Floor as anything suspicious. . . "

I have to respond to that, and I will briefly because of what it seems to suggest. I don't want any misunderstandings. There are no suspicions on my part here. For one, I think Thompson just needs to refocus, get his attention off of Fetzer and White and the line of sight argument, and document what Moorman says. Then let it go. As for Mack, I know he's a busy guy. But an oral history needs to be scheduled for Moorman as soon as possible. She's 77 years old. And one of the questions should be, "Where were you standing when you took your photograph?"

With that, I'll end all comments on this thread about Moorman in the street.

More later on Mudd and the activity on the grassy knoll stairway. . .

Ken

Ken, the Muchmore and Nix films show the man directly to Hudson's left race back up the stairs and into the shadows. (If I recall, there is another photo taken just after this that shows him racing back into the parking lot. It's in Groden's The Killing of a President. ) There are also photos which show what appears to be red shirt man with Hudson on the ground.

And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.

"Mr. Mudd stated he definitely recalls hearing two shots probably less than a second apart. He said there may have been a third shot fired, but he could not be sure of this. He stated that immediately after the shots were fired, some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself, inasmuch as the shots alarmed him and he did not know what had happened or where the shots had come from.

Now, if we could only find out who the other guy was, we'd be really getting somewhere. He, after all, was the first Dealey witness to run back in the parking lot. What did he see? Where did he go?

Apparently you are thinking of one of the Towner slides which shows "the man" jumping on the

pergola pedestal beside the steps and looking over the fence into the parking lot.

[Martin Hinrichs]

Photos of red shirt man, who I assume to have been F. Lee Mudd, on the ground with Hudson, and lingering near the steps after the shots... (Thanks to Alex Foyle for posting these on another site). This suggests Mudd was indeed the young man mentioned by Hudson in his testimony.

Pat, none of the images you've linked appeared. Is this just my connection?

But i agree with you. The longer i think about it, the more i'am convinced.

In particular his statement to be 50 feet away from the motorcade. All the bystander on the sidewalk are just 20-25 feet away from Kennedy.

The only person whom more than 20-25 feet away and west of the TSBD are the Hesters, Sitzman and Zapruder (all far more away than 50 feet)

and the persons on the steps. The fashion of the red man shirt are another convincing argument to me.

Martin

[Pat Speer]

Exactly...the man on the steps is NOT dressed in western wear. He simply has on a red shirt.

As pointed out by Miles, it's not a plain red shirt. It looks a lot more like the red shirts I saw worn at horse shows when I was a kid. Something like this..

Edited February 21, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Jack White]

Exactly...the man on the steps is NOT dressed in western wear. He simply has on a red shirt.

As pointed out by Miles, it's not a plain red xxxx. It looks a lot more like the red shirts I saw worn at horse shows when I was a kid. Something like this..

You better fix that typo. The word S..T is not allowed.

I am not arguing that the man in the red shirt is not Mudd. At this point it is

speculation and deduction. It has not reached the level of PROOF.

And that is a nice red shirt...but the man on the steps is not dressed in "western

wear", which surely would include western boots and a Stetson hat. Gimme

cowboy boots and a 10 gallon hat on "Mudd" and I will concede western wear.

It MAY be MUDD...but a red shirt does not prove it.

[Bernice Moore]

MUCHMOORE FRAMES

BOND TOWNER MAN PEERING OVER FENCE .ON THE EXTREME RIGHT THAT WAS MENTIONED...

.MAY HELP.SORRY THE LARGE TOWNER IS TOO BIG TO UPLOAD..SO A SMALLER VERSION HAS BEEN...B

Edited February 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Jack White]

Why are there only TWO men on the steps in Willis 5, DURING THE SHOOTING?

[Bernice Moore]

IF I RECALL JACK THE RESEARCH DONE ON THIS SHOWED HIS SILOUETTE IN LINE BEHIND THE POST I MAY HAVE SOMETHING WILL HAVE A LOOK...B

Edited February 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Bernice Moore]

hudson and the red shirt man got down the third man took off up the stairs you see him in his white shirt running up the stairs..also..but in one of the photos and it may be willis 5 he is just seen in align with the lamp post. if i can ever find it i shall...best.b

Edited February 22, 2010 by Bernice Moore

[Ken Rheberg]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

[Ken Rheberg]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

Thanks, Todd.

[Pat Speer]

Pat,

Regarding the actions of the man in the red shirt, you originally said:

“. . . the little man in red got down on the ground. . .”

This was right in line with what the FBI report said about Mudd:

“. . . some of the spectators along the side of the street dropped to the ground, and he did so himself. . .”

But you later said:

“And the FBI report on Mudd most definitely does say he lay down on the ground after the shots.”

The FBI report most definitely doesn’t use the term “lay down” at all about anyone.

The “lay down” comments come from Emmett Hudson in his Warren Commission testimony. He attributes them to the “young fellow” who had been sitting, then standing to his left and who was telling Hudson, over and over, to lay down and was “already laying down one way on the sidewalk. . .”

Already.

Laying down.

On the sidewalk.

None of this applies to the man in the red shirt. He didn’t lead or direct Hudson from the sidewalk. He was never on or near a sidewalk. He followed Hudson onto the grass.

The man who was telling Hudson repeatedly to lay down was laying down himself already on “the sidewalk.” And the only sidewalk up there was the sidewalk behind the retaining wall where the “young fellow” was heading as seen in the Nix film. Hudson attributes the “lay down” warnings to him.

The “young fellow” from Industrial ran up the stairs and lay down on the sidewalk behind the retaining wall while warning Hudson repeatedly to lay down. Hudson said, “. . . and we did.” The “we” refers to Hudson and the man in the red shirt who was behind and below him on the stairs. Following him. Onto the grass. Hudson refers to this man in his FBI report, claiming there were no statements from him that Hudson could remember.

Ken

What a great post, Ken. Thanks.

I can't agree with this and think it's pretty silly. We know Hudson sat down next to the man in the red shirt after the shots. But you want us to assume the guy he spoke to was some other guy hiding behind the retaining wall. You must be a fan of Home Improvement.