Judyth Vary Baker: Living in Exile

[Barb Junkkarinen]

A response from Jim DiEugenio:

The latest claims by the Baker team shows just how little they know about the Clinton/Jackson incident. Specifically, how knowledge about it progressed over time and what Garrison came to ultimately think about it. And also how other people actually went to the area and followed up on Garrison's groundbreaking previous work. Which Bill Davy, Peter Vea, and myself did. In fact, Bill and I were the last people to interview Reeves Morgan before he died. And we also interviewed Van Morgan and Mary Morgan. And Edwin McGehee. Twice.

If you follow the file trail of Garrison's investigation of the incident you will see this girl with a basinet story entered into the inquiry early. As time went on, and investigators brought back more information--including interviews, pictures, and diagrams--Garrison discarded this aspect of Oswald's first sighting there.

Why? Because he learned there was a laundromat located close to the barber shop. And that Ed M. never saw Oswald exit or enter the "basinet car". The car Oswald arrived in was not actually seen by M, but it did drive away as Oswald left. (Davy, Let Justice Be Done, p. 102) The other green colored car did not. Garrison once theorized that the basinet car was owned by Kerry Thornley, and the woman may have been his girlfriend June Hack. And it was maybe Thornley who was with Oswald. This was discarded as 1.) Multiple witness reports came in identifying Shaw and Ferrie as the escorts, and 2.) the green car became irrelevant to Oswald's actual visits. (We shall see why shortly.) Alcock should never have brought this point up at trial. And the fact he did shows how unfortunate it was that Garrison was so sick at the time that he could not conduct the trial himself. (Old back ailment, and Hong Kong flu.) I interviewed McGehee twice in Jackson, he never once mentioned the "basinet car." He said he did not actually see the car Oswald left in.

Concerning the Reeves Morgan visit: When I interviewed Mary Morgan at her home, she never once mentioned this "woman in the car". Probably because she realized she was not the best witness to the car Oswald arrived in or left in. Her brother Van was playing in the front yard when the car arrived and stayed there the whole time while Oswald entered the home to talk to Reeves. Afterward he described the car to his father as a black Cadillac and the driver as a man with a shock of white hair. (ibid, p. 117) The description of this car by Van coincides with what the majority of witnesses would describe during the Clinton voting rally. And of course, the shock of white hair matches Clay Shaw.

Team Baker likes to find loose ends and then fits their girl into that cul de sac, hoping no one will notice the trick. One would think Fetzer would. He is the professor who accents the doctrine of the "totality of the evidence". One would think he would have asked someone who knew that totality and had done a field investigation of Clinton-Jackson--not once but twice--what that sum indicated.

The question then becomes: Why did he trust Platzman, Martin S. etc., over the people who had actually done the spade work in that field?

(All as received from Jim Di Eugenio and posted at his request. - Barb)

THE DISAPPEARING WITNESS: THE WOMAN IN THE CAR (WAS JUDYTH VARY BAKER)

NOTE: This is a nice example of the process of making a person who should be of enormous

interest "disappear" from official records, but where diligent research can uncover the history

of the sequence, as occurs here, beginning with the Clay Shaw trial and ending with the HSCA.

This is a nice illustration why depending on “official records” is unlikely to reveal the whole story.

THE MISSING WITNESS

During the trial of Clay Shaw, a man named Edwin Lea McGehee testified that a man resembling

Lee Harvey Oswald came into his barbershop in late August 1963 for a haircut, that he was able

to remember him because he had few strangers as patrons, and that a woman was driving him

in "a battered old car". The state acknowledged that it could not identify here and make it clear

that, in particular, it was not alleging that this woman was Marina Oswald (now Marina Oswald

Porter). The state wished it could have identified her.

Here's an extract from the trial transcript:

McGehee also testified, "The car might have been dark-green--but the make of it I just couldn't

remember, it was an old car, real old." It "resembled a Kaiser or Frasier or an old Nash." "There

was a woman sitting on the front seat", he recalled, "and in the back seat" he also noticed what

"looked like a [baby] bassinet". He suggested that Oswald [who was looking for a job] pay a visit

to State Representative Reeves Morgan, who worked as a guard at the East Louisiana State Mental

Hospital, who testified that Oswald visited him at his home outside of Jackson for 20 or 25 minutes,

and told him of his expertise as an electrician. It was late August or early September. Not called

was Morgan's daughter, Mary, a student at LSU in 1967, who told the New Orleans District Attorney

that "when Oswald was in the house talking with dad, she happened to walk towards the screen door

and sat on the porch and just casually noticed that there was a dark colored car parked under the tree

in front of the house." It was "an old car and the model was somewhere in the Fifties." She remembered

"seeing a woman in the car". Her and her father's testimony both appears to have been taken in 1967.

THE HSCA PUTS THE WOMAN BEHIND THE WHEEL

On 19 January 1978, Mr. McGehee was interviewed by Bob Buras and Patricia Orr of the House Select

Committee on Assassinations at his home in Jackson about the testimony that he had presented on 6

February 1969. He reiterated that Oswald had come in for a haircut in late August 1963 and that "a

woman in a battered old car had driven up at about the same time that Oswald had arrived. He did

not see Oswald get out of or into the car. McGehee was unable to remember the type of car that the

woman had been driving. A big black car pulled away shortly after Oswald left. He did not know if

Oswald got into it." Because of his "clean cut appearance", after Oswald explained to him that he

"really needed a job", McGehee referred him to his friend, Morgan Reeves, who worked at the East

Louisiana State Hospital, which might be looking for someone to work in its electrical department:

THE HSCA MAKES MARY MORGAN’S “WOMAN IN THE CAR” VANISH

The same staff members had also interviewed Morgan Reeves just a few hours earlier on the same

day. "He verified that his statements made at the Clay Shaw trial, which [they] went over with him,

were accurate and truthful" and that "Sometime in 'probably the latter part of August' Oswald came

to Morgan's home to talk with him about getting a job at East Louisiana State Hospital. He "believes

Oswald drove up to his home or had been driven to his home by somebody, because he had heard the

car come up the driveway just before Oswald came to the door. Unfortunately, [either] Mr. Morgan or

his daughter, who was present at the time, did not see the car or the possible driver."

STATEMENT BY JUDYTH VARY BAKER:

Multiple reports that LHO could drive were rejected by the Warren Commission, for Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald--who was under duress--consistently stated that LHO could not drive. But other reports from the Irving, Texas-based barber (Mr. Sasheen), the barber in Jackson, LA (Lea McGehee), and Mary Morgan, the daughter of Texas State Representative Reeves Morgan, among others, suggested that Oswald in fact could drive.

The HSCA was deeply concerned about these inconsistencies. There was no doubt that at least some witnesses had seen Marina and Lee Oswald together, with Lee driving. Judyth Vary Baker was also seen by two people -- Lea McGehee and Mary Morgan -- during the course of the second trip LHO made to the East Louisiana State [Mental] Hospital. That trip concerned the testing of a bioweapon for use against Fidel Castro. She was with him in the car when he had his hair cut by Lea McGehee and when Mary Morgan saw her.

In 1969 testimony, a woman closely associated with Oswald and who was also with him the trip to the hospital was with him. Lee drove the car. By 1978, however, that woman was now described as driving the car herself and was no longer closely associated with Oswald in one report and in the other, she had disappeared entirely from the record. The woman whom Garrison wanted identified became an inconvenient, disappearing woman by the time the HSCA investigators re-examined the witnesses. That woman was me.

[Jack White]

None of my JVB stuff is PRIMARY RESEARCH. It is all secondary...what others have written or sent to me. But thanks for the compliment.

Jack

I have disagreed with you many times in the past, but this post is exactly on target.

Few researchers have bothered to DO PRIMARY RESEARCH on the information put

forth by JVB. You are a notable exception.

I admit to having done practically NO primary research on her tales because I judge

them to be unworthy of the effort. If she had just called her books FICTION, I might

have found them as interesting as an obscure little book in my collection, SHERLOCK

HOLMES IN DALLAS, which has the master sleuth trying to solve the JFK murder.

By trying to pass her fiction as fact, JVB has been her own undoing.

Jack

Thank you very much, Jack. But don't sell yourself short ... you have made, and continue to make, valuable contributions and insights in this thread. And you are doing some important primary research now on some of her "monkey business."

Sherlock Holmes working on the JFK case ... how delightful, I will have to look for that one!

Bests,

Barb :-)

(7) Why are you suggesting that I should so some "primary research"? Surely what I

am doing in interviewing the person who appears to be the most knowledgeable witness

to Lee's activities in New Orleans is "primary research" if any research on JFK is primary.

Jim

Gathering information proffered by someone who comes forth claiming to be a witness is only the first step. What have you done beyond taking what she tells you and not only running with it as fact, but beating others over the head with it as well?

I find it more than bizarre ... and plenty dismal ... that given all of the conflicts, and claims that documentably failed the verification process, noted by others, especially those like Jack, Dean, David, myself and others who have been involved in or followed Judyth's story for years, that you have no time for it, don't want to hear it and instead attack the messengers. You yourself have noted you don't know her story ... you now know the current story pretty well. But you do not know how much of what you are now hearing is different from what it was last year or 5 years ago or 10 years ago. And you don't know what are new additions to her story. Where is your intellectual curiosity, your scholarship in research before running forth and declaring someone the "real deal" without having independently verifying *any*thing?

Jack is correct ... primary research is a must. How does what she tells you hold up under scrutiny ... or has already been confirmed or denied? What have you even attempted to verify? And the biggest question of all, that has people just shaking their heads, is why don't you even care to find out? Above, you even note that she is the person who "appears to be" ... well, appearances can be deceiving. But you will never know as long as you continue to allow this claimant to self-verify her own story. No one should have to point out the folly in that to you.

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

JIM RESPONDS TO JIM DIEUGENIO COMING FROM OUT OF LEFT FIELD

Well, I embarrassed DiEugenio on another thread and I take it this is his form of retaliation. I suppose he does not mention the dates when this purported "research" was done, because it would reveal the distance in time between the original reports and testimony in relation to the Garrison trial and this (virtually irrelevant) effort expended not long before Reeves Morgan died. There is a natural decay in recollections, which in this case has obviously been exacerbated by deliberate corruption and quite possibly by witness intimidation. Most strikingly, he does not understand that there were two visits and two cars, one of which was a black Cadillac driven by Clay Shaw himself. Judyth, no doubt, will say more. When research is done properly, early testimony when memories are fresher is preferable to later. Just as this guy excoriated Horne for his admiration of David Lifton's work--apparently oblivious that the ARRB had found that there was surgery to the skull and that body alteration had taken place and that there were multiple casket entries, which meant that the key claims of his early work, BEST EVIDENCE, had been vindicated, which Horne was reporting--producing one of the most peculiar reviews I have ever read, where the reviewer apparently wrote the first part of his review completely unaware of the actual findings that would be established during the rest of its pages. This also extends to the issue of Zapruder film alteration, where DiEugnio has declined to take a stand on the ground that the research that would be involved would be too taxing! But that means he has probably not read ASSASSINATION SCiENCE, MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, or THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX, which don't leave much room for hope by anti-alterationists. Even more peculiar, he apparently doesn't know what is coming in the appendix to INSIDE THE ARRB, Vol. IV, which I summarized in "US Government Official: JKF Cover-Up, Film Fakery". I would say that his positions about the events in Jackson are on a par with his review of Horne, which was grossly incompetent. File trails are frequently distorted and incomplete, as the very post on which he is commenting convincingly demonstrates. As a friend of mine likes to say, "How dumb is that?" I used to think he was a serious scholar, but I am now persuaded that, his review of Bugliosi notwithstanding, his work should not be taken at face value. I will invite Judyth to comment in greater detail, but the thought that he and his "brain trust" are more competent and reliable than Howard Platzman or Judyth herself, in view of these considerations, is not merely a stretch but quite ridiculous. The earlier testimony of Lea McGehee, Reeves Morgan, and Mary Morgan is obviously the more reliable.

A response from Jim DiEugenio:

The latest claims by the Baker team shows just how little they know about the Clinton/Jackson incident. Specifically, how knowledge about it progressed over time and what Garrison came to ultimately think about it. And also how other people actually went to the area and followed up on Garrison's groundbreaking previous work. Which Bill Davy, Peter Vea, and myself did. In fact, Bill and I were the last people to interview Reeves Morgan before he died. And we also interviewed Van Morgan and Mary Morgan. And Edwin McGehee. Twice.

If you follow the file trail of Garrison's investigation of the incident you will see this girl with a basinet story entered into the inquiry early. As time went on, and investigators brought back more information--including interviews, pictures, and diagrams--Garrison discarded this aspect of Oswald's first sighting there.

Why? Because he learned there was a laundromat located close to the barber shop. And that Ed M. never saw Oswald exit or enter the "basinet car". The car Oswald arrived in was not actually seen by M, but it did drive away as Oswald left. (Davy, Let Justice Be Done, p. 102) The other green colored car did not. Garrison once theorized that the basinet car was owned by Kerry Thornley, and the woman may have been his girlfriend June Hack. And it was maybe Thornley who was with Oswald. This was discarded as 1.) Multiple witness reports came in identifying Shaw and Ferrie as the escorts, and 2.) the green car became irrelevant to Oswald's actual visits. (We shall see why shortly.) Alcock should never have brought this point up at trial. And the fact he did shows how unfortunate it was that Garrison was so sick at the time that he could not conduct the trial himself. (Old back ailment, and Hong Kong flu.) I interviewed McGehee twice in Jackson, he never once mentioned the "basinet car." He said he did not actually see the car Oswald left in.

Concerning the Reeves Morgan visit: When I interviewed Mary Morgan at her home, she never once mentioned this "woman in the car". Probably because she realized she was not the best witness to the car Oswald arrived in or left in. Her brother Van was playing in the front yard when the car arrived and stayed there the whole time while Oswald entered the home to talk to Reeves. Afterward he described the car to his father as a black Cadillac and the driver as a man with a shock of white hair. (ibid, p. 117) The description of this car by Van coincides with what the majority of witnesses would describe during the Clinton voting rally. And of course, the shock of white hair matches Clay Shaw.

Team Baker likes to find loose ends and then fits their girl into that cul de sac, hoping no one will notice the trick. One would think Fetzer would. He is the professor who accents the doctrine of the "totality of the evidence". One would think he would have asked someone who knew that totality and had done a field investigation of Clinton-Jackson--not once but twice--what that sum indicated.

The question then becomes: Why did he trust Platzman, Martin S. etc., over the people who had actually done the spade work in that field?

(All as received from Jim Di Eugenio and posted at his request. - Barb)

THE DISAPPEARING WITNESS: THE WOMAN IN THE CAR (WAS JUDYTH VARY BAKER)

NOTE: This is a nice example of the process of making a person who should be of enormous

interest "disappear" from official records, but where diligent research can uncover the history

of the sequence, as occurs here, beginning with the Clay Shaw trial and ending with the HSCA.

This is a nice illustration why depending on “official records” is unlikely to reveal the whole story.

THE MISSING WITNESS

During the trial of Clay Shaw, a man named Edwin Lea McGehee testified that a man resembling

Lee Harvey Oswald came into his barbershop in late August 1963 for a haircut, that he was able

to remember him because he had few strangers as patrons, and that a woman was driving him

in "a battered old car". The state acknowledged that it could not identify here and make it clear

that, in particular, it was not alleging that this woman was Marina Oswald (now Marina Oswald

Porter). The state wished it could have identified her.

Here's an extract from the trial transcript:

McGehee also testified, "The car might have been dark-green--but the make of it I just couldn't

remember, it was an old car, real old." It "resembled a Kaiser or Frasier or an old Nash." "There

was a woman sitting on the front seat", he recalled, "and in the back seat" he also noticed what

"looked like a [baby] bassinet". He suggested that Oswald [who was looking for a job] pay a visit

to State Representative Reeves Morgan, who worked as a guard at the East Louisiana State Mental

Hospital, who testified that Oswald visited him at his home outside of Jackson for 20 or 25 minutes,

and told him of his expertise as an electrician. It was late August or early September. Not called

was Morgan's daughter, Mary, a student at LSU in 1967, who told the New Orleans District Attorney

that "when Oswald was in the house talking with dad, she happened to walk towards the screen door

and sat on the porch and just casually noticed that there was a dark colored car parked under the tree

in front of the house." It was "an old car and the model was somewhere in the Fifties." She remembered

"seeing a woman in the car". Her and her father's testimony both appears to have been taken in 1967.

THE HSCA PUTS THE WOMAN BEHIND THE WHEEL

On 19 January 1978, Mr. McGehee was interviewed by Bob Buras and Patricia Orr of the House Select

Committee on Assassinations at his home in Jackson about the testimony that he had presented on 6

February 1969. He reiterated that Oswald had come in for a haircut in late August 1963 and that "a

woman in a battered old car had driven up at about the same time that Oswald had arrived. He did

not see Oswald get out of or into the car. McGehee was unable to remember the type of car that the

woman had been driving. A big black car pulled away shortly after Oswald left. He did not know if

Oswald got into it." Because of his "clean cut appearance", after Oswald explained to him that he

"really needed a job", McGehee referred him to his friend, Morgan Reeves, who worked at the East

Louisiana State Hospital, which might be looking for someone to work in its electrical department:

THE HSCA MAKES MARY MORGAN’S “WOMAN IN THE CAR” VANISH

The same staff members had also interviewed Morgan Reeves just a few hours earlier on the same

day. "He verified that his statements made at the Clay Shaw trial, which [they] went over with him,

were accurate and truthful" and that "Sometime in 'probably the latter part of August' Oswald came

to Morgan's home to talk with him about getting a job at East Louisiana State Hospital. He "believes

Oswald drove up to his home or had been driven to his home by somebody, because he had heard the

car come up the driveway just before Oswald came to the door. Unfortunately, [either] Mr. Morgan or

his daughter, who was present at the time, did not see the car or the possible driver."

STATEMENT BY JUDYTH VARY BAKER:

Multiple reports that LHO could drive were rejected by the Warren Commission, for Ruth Paine and Marina Oswald--who was under duress--consistently stated that LHO could not drive. But other reports from the Irving, Texas-based barber (Mr. Sasheen), the barber in Jackson, LA (Lea McGehee), and Mary Morgan, the daughter of Texas State Representative Reeves Morgan, among others, suggested that Oswald in fact could drive.

The HSCA was deeply concerned about these inconsistencies. There was no doubt that at least some witnesses had seen Marina and Lee Oswald together, with Lee driving. Judyth Vary Baker was also seen by two people -- Lea McGehee and Mary Morgan -- during the course of the second trip LHO made to the East Louisiana State [Mental] Hospital. That trip concerned the testing of a bioweapon for use against Fidel Castro. She was with him in the car when he had his hair cut by Lea McGehee and when Mary Morgan saw her.

In 1969 testimony, a woman closely associated with Oswald and who was also with him the trip to the hospital was with him. Lee drove the car. By 1978, however, that woman was now described as driving the car herself and was no longer closely associated with Oswald in one report and in the other, she had disappeared entirely from the record. The woman whom Garrison wanted identified became an inconvenient, disappearing woman by the time the HSCA investigators re-examined the witnesses. That woman was me.

Edited May 4, 2010 by James H. Fetzer

[Jack White]

Jim DiEugenio and Bill Davy are likely the two most knowledgeable of JFK New Orleans researchers still around.

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

Jack

Edited May 4, 2010 by Jack White

[Michael Hogan]

Jim DiEugenio and Bill Davy are likely the two most knowledgeable of JFK New Orleans researchers still around.

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

You could add Paris Flammonde, William Turner and Joan Mellen to that list.

Book Two of Flammonde's Assassination of America opus is entitled The Masques of New Orleans.

He does not mention Judyth Baker.

In the Indices (Book Four), Flammonde includes a review of Bugliosi's Reclaiming History by Jim Fetzer.

There is a typo on the cover and Jim's name appears as Jamers Fetzer.

Mellen's book, A Farewell to Justice does not mention Judyth Baker. Nor does Turner's Rearview Mirror.

[Dean Hagerman]

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

I agree with Jack

I respect DiEugenio's work

[Kathleen Collins]

"She has an IQ of around 160 and is superb at research."

-- Jim Fester

Read your own sentence. She's a researcher. Doesn't that give you a clue about what she knows? She didn't live all this. She read about it.

Kathy C

[Kathleen Collins]

Question for Judyth: Did Lee Harvey Oswald use a condom?

Kathy C

[Jack White]

Whoever came up with an IQ of 160 for JVB is making the wildest Judyth claim yet!

The standard Stanford-Binet adult IQ Test rates any score above 135 as genius!

........

A normal intelligence quotient (IQ) ranges from 85 to 115 (According to the Stanford-Binet scale). Only approximately 1% of the people in the world have an IQ of 135 or over. In 1926, psychologist Dr. Catherine Morris Cox - who had been assisted by Dr. Lewis M. Terman, Dr. Florence L. Goodenaugh, and Dr. Kate Gordon - published a study "of the most eminent men and women" who had lived between 1450 and 1850 to estimate what their IQs might have been. The resultant IQs were based largely on the degree sof brightness and intelligence each subject showed before attaining the age of 17. Taken from a revised and completed version of this study, table II shows the projected IQs of some of the best scorers.

For comparison I have included table I which shows the IQs' relation to educational level.

Cox also found that different fields have quite widely varying average IQs for their acknowledged leading geniuses. Displayed below are there calculated Deviation IQs (the number in brackets is the number in the sample considered):

Philosophers (22) average IQ 160; Scientists (39) 159; Fiction writers (53) 152; Statesmen (43) 150; Musicians (11) 149; Artists (13) 153; Soldiers (27) 136.

"She has an IQ of around 160 and is superb at research."

-- Jim Fester

Read your own sentence. She's a researcher. Doesn't that give you a clue about what she knows? She didn't live all this. She read about it.

Kathy C

[Greg Burnham]

I would take their studies to the bank. JVB? Account overdrawn.

I agree with Jack

I respect DiEugenio's work

I respect some of his work, too. It's him that I do NOT respect. When I was preparing to leave for Pentagon City to attend Colonel L Fletcher Prouty's funeral and burial at Arlington National Cemetary in 2001, it was Jim DisIngenuous who engaged me in a lengthy debate regarding the book, Farewell America--a book that he "trashed" for reasons yet unknown. Problem was...he cited Fletch --INCORRECTLY--and inappropriately to bolster his argument against "Farewell America" -- and was very insensitive to the recent passing of my dear friend who was no longer alive to "correct" his errors. I literally posted a response to his nonsense as a last act before boarding the plane for Fletch's funeral.

No clearer are "true colors" shown than in "crunch" time. His were a faded shade of black...at best.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Greg Burnham

[Jack White]

A very select list of history's smartest pesons:

Abraham Lincoln President USA 128

Adolf Hitler Nazi leader Germany 141

Al Gore Politician USA 134

Albert Einstein Physicist USA 160

Albrecht von Haller Medical scientist Switzerland 190

Alexander Pope Poet & writer England 180

Andrew J. Wiles Mathematician England 170

Andrew Jackson President USA 123

Andy Warhol Pop artist USA 86

Anthonis Van Dyck Artist Belgium 155

Archure Musician Artist Writer USA 147+

Arnauld Theologian France 190

Arne Beurling Mathematician Sweden 180

Arnold Schwarzenegger Actor Austria 135

Baruch Spinoza Philosopher Holland 175

Benjamin Franklin Writer, scientist & politician USA 160

Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister Israel 180

Bill (William) J. Clinton President USA 137

Bill Gates CEO, Microsoft USA 160

Blaise Pascal Mathematician & religious philosopher France 195

Bobby Fischer Chess player USA 187

Bonaparte Napoleon Emperor France 145

Buonarroti Michelangelo Artist, poet & architect Italy 180

Carl von Linné Botanist Sweden 165

Charles Darwin Naturalist England 165

Charles Dickens Writer England 180

Christopher Langan Bouncer & scientist & philosopher USA 195

David Hume Philosopher & politician Scotland 180

Dolph Lundgren Actor Sweden 160

Donald Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Dr David Livingstone Explorer & doctor Scotland 170

Emanuel Swedenborg " Sweden 205

Felix Mendelssohn Composer Germany 165

Friedrich Hegel Philosopher Germany 165

Friedrich von Schelling Philosopher Germany 190

Galileo Galilei Physicist & astronomer & philosopher Italy 185

Garry Kasparov Chess player Russia 190

Geena Davis Actress USA 140

George Berkeley Philosopher Ireland 190

George H. Choueiri A.C.E Leader Lebanon 195

George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) Writer England 160

George Friedrich Händel Composer Germany 170

George Sand Writer France 150

George W. Bush President USA 125

George Washington President USA 118

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz " Germany 205

H. C. Anderson Writer Denmark 145

Hillary Clinton Ex-President wife USA 140

Hjalmar Schacht Nazi officer Germany 143

Honoré de Balzac Writer France 155

Hugo Grotius Writer Holland 200

Hypatia Philosopher & mathematician Alexandria 170

Immanuel Kant Philosopher Germany 175

James Cook Explorer England 160

James Watt Physicist & technician Scotland 165

James Woods Actor USA 180

Jayne Mansfield Actress USA 149

Jean M. Auel Writer Canada 140

Jodie Foster Actor USA 132

Johann Sebastian Bach Composer Germany 165

Johann Strauss Composer Germany 170

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe " Germany 210

Johannes Kepler Mathematician, physicist & astronomer Germany 175

John Adams President USA 137

John F. Kennedy' Ex-President USA 117

John H. Sununu Chief of Staff for President Bush USA 180

John Locke Philosopher England 165

John Quincy Adams President USA 153

John Stuart Mill Universal Genius England 200

Jola Sigmond Teacher Sweden 161

Jonathan Swift Writer & theologian England 155

Joseph Haydn Composer Austria 160

Joseph Louis Lagrange Mathematician & astronomer Italy/France 185

Judith Polgar Chess player Hungary 170

Judyth Vary Baker Novelist USA & Exile 160

Kim Ung-Yong " Korea 200

Leonardo da Vinci Universal Genius Italy 220

Lord Byron Poet & writer England 180

Ludwig van Beethoven Composer Germany 165

Ludwig Wittgenstein Philosopher Austria 190

Madame De Stael Novelist & philosopher France 180

Madonna Singer USA 140

Marilyn Vos Savant Writer USA 186

Martin Luther Theorist Germany 170

Miguel de Cervantes Writer Spain 155

Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomer Poland 160

Nicole Kidman Actor USA 132

Paul Allen Microsoft cofounder USA 160

Philip Emeagwali Mathematician Nigeria 190 (shows that race is no issue)

Phillipp Melanchthon Humanist & theologian Germany 190

Pierre Simon de Laplace Astronomer & mathematician France 190

Plato Philosopher Greece 170

Ralph Waldo Emerson Writer USA 155

Raphael Artist Italy 170

Rembrandt van Rijn Artist Holland 155

René Descartes Mathematician & philosopher France 185

Richard Nixon Ex-President USA 143

Richard Wagner Composer Germany 170

Robert Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Rousseau Writer France 150

Sarpi Councilor & theologian & historian Italy 195

Shakira Singer Colombia 140

Sharon Stone Actress USA 154

Sir Clive Sinclair Inventor England 159

Sir Francis Galton Scientist & doctor England 200

Sir Isaac Newton Scientist England 190

Sofia Kovalevskaya Mathematician & writer Sweden/Russia 170

Stephen W. Hawking Physicist England 160

Thomas Chatterton Poet & writer England 180

Thomas Jefferson President USA 138

Thomas Wolsey Politician England 200

Truman Cloak " " 165

Ulysses S. Grant President USA 110

Voltaire Writer France 190

William James Sidis " USA 200

William Pitt (the Younger) Politician England 190

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Composer Austria 165

Edited May 4, 2010 by Jack White

[Greg Burnham]

A very select list of history's smartest pesons:

So, I take it the numbers following the names are IQ scores? Is that right? And geez, is it just me, but I thought that testing for intelligence began in France in 1904.

The first guy on your list, Abraham Lincoln was ummm DEAD (by assassination) long before that--not to mention MOZART!!!

Egads...

[Pat Speer]

A very select list of history's smartest pesons:

Abraham Lincoln President USA 128

Adolf Hitler Nazi leader Germany 141

Al Gore Politician USA 134

Albert Einstein Physicist USA 160

Albrecht von Haller Medical scientist Switzerland 190

Alexander Pope Poet & writer England 180

Andrew J. Wiles Mathematician England 170

Andrew Jackson President USA 123

Andy Warhol Pop artist USA 86

Anthonis Van Dyck Artist Belgium 155

Archure Musician Artist Writer USA 147+

Arnauld Theologian France 190

Arne Beurling Mathematician Sweden 180

Arnold Schwarzenegger Actor Austria 135

Baruch Spinoza Philosopher Holland 175

Benjamin Franklin Writer, scientist & politician USA 160

Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister Israel 180

Bill (William) J. Clinton President USA 137

Bill Gates CEO, Microsoft USA 160

Blaise Pascal Mathematician & religious philosopher France 195

Bobby Fischer Chess player USA 187

Bonaparte Napoleon Emperor France 145

Buonarroti Michelangelo Artist, poet & architect Italy 180

Carl von Linné Botanist Sweden 165

Charles Darwin Naturalist England 165

Charles Dickens Writer England 180

Christopher Langan Bouncer & scientist & philosopher USA 195

David Hume Philosopher & politician Scotland 180

Dolph Lundgren Actor Sweden 160

Donald Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Dr David Livingstone Explorer & doctor Scotland 170

Emanuel Swedenborg " Sweden 205

Felix Mendelssohn Composer Germany 165

Friedrich Hegel Philosopher Germany 165

Friedrich von Schelling Philosopher Germany 190

Galileo Galilei Physicist & astronomer & philosopher Italy 185

Garry Kasparov Chess player Russia 190

Geena Davis Actress USA 140

George Berkeley Philosopher Ireland 190

George H. Choueiri A.C.E Leader Lebanon 195

George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) Writer England 160

George Friedrich Händel Composer Germany 170

George Sand Writer France 150

George W. Bush President USA 125

George Washington President USA 118

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz " Germany 205

H. C. Anderson Writer Denmark 145

Hillary Clinton Ex-President wife USA 140

Hjalmar Schacht Nazi officer Germany 143

Honoré de Balzac Writer France 155

Hugo Grotius Writer Holland 200

Hypatia Philosopher & mathematician Alexandria 170

Immanuel Kant Philosopher Germany 175

James Cook Explorer England 160

James Watt Physicist & technician Scotland 165

James Woods Actor USA 180

Jayne Mansfield Actress USA 149

Jean M. Auel Writer Canada 140

Jodie Foster Actor USA 132

Johann Sebastian Bach Composer Germany 165

Johann Strauss Composer Germany 170

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe " Germany 210

Johannes Kepler Mathematician, physicist & astronomer Germany 175

John Adams President USA 137

John F. Kennedy' Ex-President USA 117

John H. Sununu Chief of Staff for President Bush USA 180

John Locke Philosopher England 165

John Quincy Adams President USA 153

John Stuart Mill Universal Genius England 200

Jola Sigmond Teacher Sweden 161

Jonathan Swift Writer & theologian England 155

Joseph Haydn Composer Austria 160

Joseph Louis Lagrange Mathematician & astronomer Italy/France 185

Judith Polgar Chess player Hungary 170

Judyth Vary Baker Novelist USA & Exile 160

Kim Ung-Yong " Korea 200

Leonardo da Vinci Universal Genius Italy 220

Lord Byron Poet & writer England 180

Ludwig van Beethoven Composer Germany 165

Ludwig Wittgenstein Philosopher Austria 190

Madame De Stael Novelist & philosopher France 180

Madonna Singer USA 140

Marilyn Vos Savant Writer USA 186

Martin Luther Theorist Germany 170

Miguel de Cervantes Writer Spain 155

Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomer Poland 160

Nicole Kidman Actor USA 132

Paul Allen Microsoft cofounder USA 160

Philip Emeagwali Mathematician Nigeria 190 (shows that race is no issue)

Phillipp Melanchthon Humanist & theologian Germany 190

Pierre Simon de Laplace Astronomer & mathematician France 190

Plato Philosopher Greece 170

Ralph Waldo Emerson Writer USA 155

Raphael Artist Italy 170

Rembrandt van Rijn Artist Holland 155

René Descartes Mathematician & philosopher France 185

Richard Nixon Ex-President USA 143

Richard Wagner Composer Germany 170

Robert Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Rousseau Writer France 150

Sarpi Councilor & theologian & historian Italy 195

Shakira Singer Colombia 140

Sharon Stone Actress USA 154

Sir Clive Sinclair Inventor England 159

Sir Francis Galton Scientist & doctor England 200

Sir Isaac Newton Scientist England 190

Sofia Kovalevskaya Mathematician & writer Sweden/Russia 170

Stephen W. Hawking Physicist England 160

Thomas Chatterton Poet & writer England 180

Thomas Jefferson President USA 138

Thomas Wolsey Politician England 200

Truman Cloak " " 165

Ulysses S. Grant President USA 110

Voltaire Writer France 190

William James Sidis " USA 200

William Pitt (the Younger) Politician England 190

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Composer Austria 165

Jack, there was no IQ test when most of these people were alive, so whoever made this list was just guesstimating.

100 is by definition average. 200 is the highest score possible. The tests are not standard from year to year. It could very well be, therefore, that a 100 in 1963 would translate to a 105 in 2010, etc.

FWIW, when I was 7 years old my mother was told I had a very high IQ, and was asked if they could skip me ahead in school. She said no, afraid I would be mocked by the older kids. In fifth grade I was put into an experimental program, whereby the kids with the highest IQs from grades 5, 4, and 3, were put in a single class, the "gifted" class. The minimum IQ was 130. if I recall. We put out a school newspaper, for which I was the editor. Later, in sixth grade, my home room teacher pulled me aside to tell me that I was the most respected kid in the school and was a natural born leader, etc.

Now, all of this could have led me to have a big head. But three things got in the way. One, my best friend Dirk was, to my estimation, just as smart as me, and his IQ was not high enough to crash the "gifted" club. (He later proved his smarts by forming a tech company, Xircom, and then selling it to Intel for hundreds of millions of dollars just before the bubble burst.) Two was that, as smart as I was, I would occasionally have brain farts where I couldn't remember simple things. Three was that I realized having great potential did not necessarily translate to having a great outcome, and that what to others might appear to be blessing could in fact be quite a burden. One day after school I had a talk with one of the class stoners--a guy who was already smoking pot in grade school. He told me that Mrs. Olivier, who'd kept me after class to tell me how respected I was, had kept HIM after class one day to tell him he had the highest IQ in the class, and to tell him he should try harder. Now, most of the kids in school would have called him a xxxx for making such a claim, but I instinctively knew he was right. At no time in my conversation with Mrs. Olivier had she ever discussed my IQ.

Anyhow, years later, on the David Letterman show, if I recall, I saw an interview with the woman with the highest recorded IQ. She wrote stories. And flirted. And was funny... Her intelligence didn't drive her to science, as one might think, but to other endeavors. (Malcolm Gladwell's book Outliers discusses the under-performance of geniuses as compared to near-geniuses in detail.)

So...how does this relate to Judyth's story? It relates in that I have no problem believing she has an IQ of 160. She may very well have. But that by no means supports that 1) she is telling the truth, or 2) she was brought on board some top secret science project at an early age.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Pat Speer]

JIM RESPONDS TO JIM DIEUGENIO COMING FROM OUT OF LEFT FIELD

Well, I embarrassed DiEugenio on another thread and I take it this is his form of retaliation. I suppose he does not mention the dates when this purported "research" was done, because it would reveal the distance in time between the original reports and testimony in relation to the Garrison trial and this (virtually irrelevant) effort expended not long before Reeves Morgan died. There is a natural decay in recollections, which in this case has obviously been exacerbated by deliberate corruption and quite possibly by witness intimidation. Most strikingly, he does not understand that there were two visits and two cars, one of which was a black Cadillac driven by Clay Shaw himself. Judyth, no doubt, will say more. When research is done properly, early testimony when memories are fresher is preferable to later. Just as this guy excoriated Horne for his admiration of David Lifton's work--apparently oblivious that the ARRB had found that there was surgery to the skull and that body alteration had taken place and that there were multiple casket entries, which meant that the key claims of his early work, BEST EVIDENCE, had been vindicated, which Horne was reporting--producing one of the most peculiar reviews I have ever read, where the reviewer apparently wrote the first part of his review completely unaware of the actual findings that would be established during the rest of its pages. This also extends to the issue of Zapruder film alteration, where DiEugnio has declined to take a stand on the ground that the research that would be involved would be too taxing! But that means he has probably not read ASSASSINATION SCiENCE, MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA, or THE GREAT ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX, which don't leave much room for hope by anti-alterationists. Even more peculiar, he apparently doesn't know what is coming in the appendix to INSIDE THE ARRB, Vol. IV, which I summarized in "US Government Official: JKF Cover-Up, Film Fakery". I would say that his positions about the events in Jackson are on a par with his review of Horne, which was grossly incompetent. File trails are frequently distorted and incomplete, as the very post on which he is commenting convincingly demonstrates. As a friend of mine likes to say, "How dumb is that?" I used to think he was a serious scholar, but I am now persuaded that, his review of Bugliosi notwithstanding, his work should not be taken at face value. I will invite Judyth to comment in greater detail, but the thought that he and his "brain trust" are more competent and reliable than Howard Platzman or Judyth herself, in view of these considerations, is not merely a stretch but quite ridiculous. The earlier testimony of Lea McGehee, Reeves Morgan, and Mary Morgan is obviously the more reliable.

Jim, the highlighted section above is just not true. The ARRB made NO conclusions. None of the members of its board came out of their experience as supporters of Lifton's theory of body alteration. The only ARRB employee, to my knowledge, who came out of his ARRB experience a committed alterationist was Horne, who went in as a committed alterationist. Jeremy Gunn, Horne's boss, has claimed in year's past that the only thing he learned for sure about the medical evidence was that one can't trust the thirty-year old memories of old people, or something like that. Horne has spent the last decade trying to weave all the conflicting stories into a convincing whole.

But it's more like an unconvincing hole, IMO.

FWIW, IMO, you need to take your lumps and just let the Judyth story drop, if only for a while. While you may have a valid point to make, and where Judyth and her story--as improbable as it sounds--may have something to it, you have let it become personal, and about YOU. You are hurt that men you considered friends fail to trust your judgment re Judyth. You are now claiming DiEugenio has it in for you, when he is simply sharing his own impressions based on actual conversations he has had with actual witnesses.

It's not about you.

Take care.

Edited May 4, 2010 by Pat Speer

[Karl Kinaski]

A very select list of history's smartest pesons:

Abraham Lincoln President USA 128

Adolf Hitler Nazi leader Germany 141

Al Gore Politician USA 134

Albert Einstein Physicist USA 160

Albrecht von Haller Medical scientist Switzerland 190

Alexander Pope Poet & writer England 180

Andrew J. Wiles Mathematician England 170

Andrew Jackson President USA 123

Andy Warhol Pop artist USA 86

Anthonis Van Dyck Artist Belgium 155

Archure Musician Artist Writer USA 147+

Arnauld Theologian France 190

Arne Beurling Mathematician Sweden 180

Arnold Schwarzenegger Actor Austria 135

Baruch Spinoza Philosopher Holland 175

Benjamin Franklin Writer, scientist & politician USA 160

Benjamin Netanyahu Israeli Prime Minister Israel 180

Bill (William) J. Clinton President USA 137

Bill Gates CEO, Microsoft USA 160

Blaise Pascal Mathematician & religious philosopher France 195

Bobby Fischer Chess player USA 187

Bonaparte Napoleon Emperor France 145

Buonarroti Michelangelo Artist, poet & architect Italy 180

Carl von Linné Botanist Sweden 165

Charles Darwin Naturalist England 165

Charles Dickens Writer England 180

Christopher Langan Bouncer & scientist & philosopher USA 195

David Hume Philosopher & politician Scotland 180

Dolph Lundgren Actor Sweden 160

Donald Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Dr David Livingstone Explorer & doctor Scotland 170

Emanuel Swedenborg " Sweden 205

Felix Mendelssohn Composer Germany 165

Friedrich Hegel Philosopher Germany 165

Friedrich von Schelling Philosopher Germany 190

Galileo Galilei Physicist & astronomer & philosopher Italy 185

Garry Kasparov Chess player Russia 190

Geena Davis Actress USA 140

George Berkeley Philosopher Ireland 190

George H. Choueiri A.C.E Leader Lebanon 195

George Eliot (Mary Ann Evans) Writer England 160

George Friedrich Händel Composer Germany 170

George Sand Writer France 150

George W. Bush President USA 125

George Washington President USA 118

Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz " Germany 205

H. C. Anderson Writer Denmark 145

Hillary Clinton Ex-President wife USA 140

Hjalmar Schacht Nazi officer Germany 143

Honoré de Balzac Writer France 155

Hugo Grotius Writer Holland 200

Hypatia Philosopher & mathematician Alexandria 170

Immanuel Kant Philosopher Germany 175

James Cook Explorer England 160

James Watt Physicist & technician Scotland 165

James Woods Actor USA 180

Jayne Mansfield Actress USA 149

Jean M. Auel Writer Canada 140

Jodie Foster Actor USA 132

Johann Sebastian Bach Composer Germany 165

Johann Strauss Composer Germany 170

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe " Germany 210

Johannes Kepler Mathematician, physicist & astronomer Germany 175

John Adams President USA 137

John F. Kennedy' Ex-President USA 117

John H. Sununu Chief of Staff for President Bush USA 180

John Locke Philosopher England 165

John Quincy Adams President USA 153

John Stuart Mill Universal Genius England 200

Jola Sigmond Teacher Sweden 161

Jonathan Swift Writer & theologian England 155

Joseph Haydn Composer Austria 160

Joseph Louis Lagrange Mathematician & astronomer Italy/France 185

Judith Polgar Chess player Hungary 170

Judyth Vary Baker Novelist USA & Exile 160

Kim Ung-Yong " Korea 200

Leonardo da Vinci Universal Genius Italy 220

Lord Byron Poet & writer England 180

Ludwig van Beethoven Composer Germany 165

Ludwig Wittgenstein Philosopher Austria 190

Madame De Stael Novelist & philosopher France 180

Madonna Singer USA 140

Marilyn Vos Savant Writer USA 186

Martin Luther Theorist Germany 170

Miguel de Cervantes Writer Spain 155

Nicolaus Copernicus Astronomer Poland 160

Nicole Kidman Actor USA 132

Paul Allen Microsoft cofounder USA 160

Philip Emeagwali Mathematician Nigeria 190 (shows that race is no issue)

Phillipp Melanchthon Humanist & theologian Germany 190

Pierre Simon de Laplace Astronomer & mathematician France 190

Plato Philosopher Greece 170

Ralph Waldo Emerson Writer USA 155

Raphael Artist Italy 170

Rembrandt van Rijn Artist Holland 155

René Descartes Mathematician & philosopher France 185

Richard Nixon Ex-President USA 143

Richard Wagner Composer Germany 170

Robert Byrne Chess Player Irland 170

Rousseau Writer France 150

Sarpi Councilor & theologian & historian Italy 195

Shakira Singer Colombia 140

Sharon Stone Actress USA 154

Sir Clive Sinclair Inventor England 159

Sir Francis Galton Scientist & doctor England 200

Sir Isaac Newton Scientist England 190

Sofia Kovalevskaya Mathematician & writer Sweden/Russia 170

Stephen W. Hawking Physicist England 160

Thomas Chatterton Poet & writer England 180

Thomas Jefferson President USA 138

Thomas Wolsey Politician England 200

Truman Cloak " " 165

Ulysses S. Grant President USA 110

Voltaire Writer France 190

William James Sidis " USA 200

William Pitt (the Younger) Politician England 190

Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart Composer Austria 165

Impressive. But, Jack, I can only hope, that you are aware of the fact, that there are different kinds of intelligence...to estimate humans correctly is a kind of intelligence... and that is not a strength of Jack White, I fear. Once upon a time you thought that Gary Mack is a CTer...if I remember right...but it turned out, that you were fooled by Mack. The boss of the "Lone Nut headquarters" in Dallas, is no CTer at alll... as Doug Horne was fooled by Gunn, and Lifton was fooled by Robet Groden, who, in IMO is the greatest mole in the CTer community ever...(which struck me when I read BIG ON LEASH)...Jim Fetzer sometimes IMO is going a bit too fare in his ardent zeal, but he is able to estimate humans, a kind of intelligence which you IMO need more than any other skill in this JFK research business...

KK

Edited May 4, 2010 by Karl Kinaski