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John

Interesting question to ponder but here goes.

I believe that the author of the book Seven Days in May knew and had had talks with Kennedy while writting the book and during the production of the film. I think the film is to close to reality.

After the funeral of JFK, Jackie Kennedy made reference to the Soviet Ambassador that it was now up to the Soviets to continue with arms negotiation which to me indicates that Jackie knew that that was a key issue at the time of JFK's death.

General Walker (in interviews late in life) indicated that Oswald was working for both the Soviets and the US. Walker also indicated at one time that he felt that Bobby Kennedy knew that it was Oswald who had shot at him and had had Oswald released after the incident. I do not believe that the story as told is correct but to believe that Walker understood/believed that Bobby Kennedy was well aware of who Oswald was prior to or shortly after the assassination.

Dulles had informed Joe Kennedy that his son would be the next President of the US prior to the election. McCloy did not like Nixon. The U-2 incident, in my opinion, helped Kennedy get elected. Kennedy, perhaps in gratitude, recognized McCloy during his first press conference and gave McCloy the job that McCloy wanted most, Chief Arms Negotiator (I believe McCloy was sincere in his desire to see an end to the spread of nuclear weapons which he had helped to create but did not want to see used during WWII).

The amount of time Bobby Kennedy spent following the interrogation of Yuri Nosenko after his defection indicates to me that Bobby may have believed (for whatever reason) that Oswald was/had been a Soviet Agent and that his defection may have led to the downing of the U-2.

Bobby Kennedy may have believed that if the downing of the U-2 had been a staged event by US Intelligence agencies then the actual legitimacy of the Kennedy Presidency may have been called into question.....a difficult problem for a man that wanted to protect the legacy of his brothers and families name.

I believe Bobby Kennedy knew full well that the assassination had been a coup but do not believe that he knew who was behind it........I imagine it was difficult for Bobby to trust anyone after the event!

Some thoughts

Jim Root

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McCloy has his defenders, and has his defensible points. He served his country. He is, however, at or near the core of some seedy business:

Nuremberg Trials decisions (vs. Operation Paperclip and the ratlines); the sparing of Albert Speer

Leniency for the Krupp family

Removal of Asian treasure looted by the Japanese (see Sterling Seagrave's "Gold Warriors")

Again, his managerial associations - see my posts above - can come into question on these matters.

Edited by David Andrews
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My apologies, sometimes these posts come so numerously that I miss bits. I'll refer to the post later but what you've said is interesting.

There's one thought that comes to mind (which is not an argument against the post as a whole).

If one takes the case of the Mississippi Three for example. the basic pervasive rumour mill had it that they had been squirreled to Hungary I think, behind the Iron Curtain, (I think Bobby might have been mentioned in that as well). But the fact is that members of the Law Enforcement Instruments, from the intelligence gathering/disseminating MSC appears to have tracked them and passed on locations to groups, to the actual killers, who had buried them in a levee and destroyed evidence, produced flawed autopsy reports, and pulled the triggers.

I doubt Walker being unaware of the truth of the matter, (ditto the assassination of Medgar Evers).

__

Later is now now : [Without meaning to deflect the enquiry, I'd just like to note the concern re wheather, which also occurred re the bubble top at Lovefield, but there it was decided on with regards to weather at downtown Dallas. Is it possible to know whether the concern for Dallas weather was also with regards to downtown? The reason for the question should be obvious, being that, for a sniper, atmospheric conditions are an essential ingredient regards to success. If the mission had failed, I doubt very much that another opportunity would have presented itself, and that JFK would have gone on to a second term with all the experience and wisdom gathered from the first term and the world today would likely be a very different place.]

edit:typo

Edited by John Dolva
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  • 2 years later...
Guest Tom Scully

Jim, I don't know if you are still reading posts on this forum from time to time, but I came upon this implausible yarn, the most charitable description I'm extending to what the media foisted on the American public after the mid April, 1965 shooting murder of 61 years old Mary Happer, the sister of Maxwell Taylor's wife. I would like to read your reaction to this information, and your famliarity with it.

I thought it was all curious enough, but just now I read that Maxwell Taylor uses this murder as a reason to resign from his post as U.S. Ambassador in Saigon.

News reports of the murder and then the death late in the evening of the shooter by suicide using the same handgun, hint of problems the news reporting outlets themselves may have been having in dishing out "the facts."

First reports describe the shooter as age 35 and a close friend of Taylor's sister-in-law, Mary Happer, 61. Except for a confirming address of the shooter's mother, there is no direct mention that the young friend of Mary Happer was the daughter of this man, deceased in Sept., 1962 :

http://lowndes.msghn.org/Obituaries/Butts_Alfred_Benjamin.txt

Dr. Alfred Benjamin Butts

...He was 72. Stricken while teaching a class of Army officers and Defense Department civilians at the Pentagon Wednesday night, Dr. Butts was taken first to his home and then to the hospital. Dr. Butts served as chancellor of the University of Mississippi from 1935 to 1946. From 1946 until last year, he was director of education for the Department of the Army, directing the post-graduate education of Regular Army officers in civillian universities. Beginning last year, he served as consultant on education to the Defense Department, teaching classes several times a week....

I developed the view I have of the shootings on the coincidences that Taylor and Butts certainly were in positions to influence a large number of army officers, Taylor at West Point and Butts as described above. Gen. Edwin Walker's most infamous moments were at the same university where Dr. Butts had earlier held a very prominent position.

Many newspaper reports describe Butts's daughter, Dorothy, the shooter, as age 49 or age 50. I confirmed her age in early and in final reports of the two deaths as age 35.:

https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.1.1/XM5H-NW7

These are the details reported to the American public, unchallenged since, from what my brief digging has extracted.

Mary Happer and her sister "Didi," who married Maxwell Taylor in 1925, had come to Washington, DC in 1923 when their father, John A. Happer was appointed by the El Paso Chamber of Commerce as its DC representative.

Mary was associated with a private girls school in the DC area from the late 1920's until three weeks before her death.

At the time of the shootings, Dorothy Butts had been teaching for several years at a Bethesda, MD high school, and had met Mary years earlier when she also worked at the private school. Dorothy had a masters degree in education and had earlier taught at a university in Arizona.

It was reported that Mary was a Christian Scientist and had been ill for some time before she moved due to her deteriorating physical condition, to a Christian Scientist home in the Philadelphia area three weeks before her death. It was suspected she had cancer but this was still unconfirmed, awaiting results of a very recent biopsy delayed because of her Chrisitian Scientist influenced avoidance of conventional medical care.

It was reported that Dorothy had driven up from Bethesda several times over the three weeks to visit with her close friend, Mary. Before the final visit, the reports quoted a gun shop owner who claimed to have sold Dorothy a .22 caliber handgun and ammunition purchased for personal protection because of escalating crime in the Bethesda neighborhood where Dorothy resided.

On the day of the April 14, 1965 shooting, Dorothy picked up Mary at the Philadelphia Christian Scientist home, took her to lunch and then for an afternoon drive, and returned to the home with Mary around 4:00 pm. An hour later, two shots were heard, Mary was found with gunshot wounds to the head and left side, and Dorothy was seen running to her car in the parking lot, driving off before she could be questioned.

Late that same evening a shot was heard near the Bethesda, MD police station. Dorothy was found dead in a nearby vehicle with a blood spattered interior, along with a note

relating that she had earlier shot her close friend, Mary.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=740zAAAAIBAJ&sjid=ltsFAAAAIBAJ&pg=6138,2733688&dq=dorothy+butts+friend+pain&hl=en

Today 1 Killed My Best Menu .

Beaver Country Times - Apr 14, 1965

......And she knew the far greater pain and agony which would befall her friend before death would end it...

Washington Post - April 17, 1965

MaxwellTaylorButtsCrop.jpg

Is this as absurd as I suspect it is? A 61 years old woman is undiagnosed because she does not seek conventional medical care

for a severe, painful, wasting condition. A close friend 26 years her junior who is well educated and not a Christian Scientist, shoots her

friend in sympathy, although her ill friend may not even have obtained a confirmed diagnosis of her ailment, and then shoots herself

to death a few hours later at the age of 35.

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Just a little something to chew on in regards to this thread:

J Edgar's Appt. Book for Nov. 14th, 1963:

JEH_Nov14_63.jpg

He has a 2 hr. meeting with AF Generals Ryan and Henry:

Ryan: http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=7005

Henry: http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=5774

And then shortly after Adm. Strauss slinks in... You know his confirmation was killed by Jack and that he'd conspired with J. Edgar against Oppenheimer, right?

Maybe it's because I just watched "Seven Days in May" again recently that this gives me the willies...

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I don't believe this thread would be complete without the following......[bTW the death of Maxwell Taylor's sister-in-law, Happer is very interesting]

No More Silence: An Oral History of the Assassination of President Kennedy - Larry Sneed - Three Forks Press - 1998

Vincent Drain, Special Agent FBI:

Earlier in the evening, about 8:00 o'clock, the division chief had talked to me on the telephone and informed me that the FBI in Washington demanded that we bring them for examination the rifle, the revolver that was used to kill Tippit, as well as the different paraphernalia such as identification cards and other small items that Oswald had on him. I discussed it with the police chief and told him that we'd keep the chain of evidence intact and that I would pick them up there myself and wait for them until they were examined in Washington then bring them back. So it was turned over to us.

By the time we got it all boxed up, it was near midnight. Meanwhile Washington was calling down about every fifteen minutes wanting to know where the material was. All of a sudden I learned that neither American nor Braniff had any flights to Washington out of Dallas after midnight. We were told that the FBI in Washington wanted the material by morning if we had to walk it up there. That's being facetious, but…

Fortunately the commanding general over at Carswell in Forth Worth happened to be a good friend of mine and was head of SAC (Strategic Air Command) at that time. So I called him and was told that the President had asked him to give us all the help that we needed. Another agent took me to Fort Worth where they had a C-135 tanker plane and crew ready.

It was a little scary on the way up because I was sitting up on the deck with the pilot, the co-pilot, and the engineer. This was an empty plane, and they were flying high and really letting her go. During the flight, they let me listen to all the short wave broadcasts abut the British, French, and Canadians calling their troops and the submarines going to sea because they were afraid the Russians might attack.

When we landed at Andrews Air Force Base, an unusual thing happened. I had never been in the military service since I had joined the FBI prior to the war and had stayed continuously through then. When I had arrived at Carswell, the commanding general was at the plane with two of his aides. As I got out of the car, they all saluted, so I told myself that I'd better salute back. When I arrived at Andrews, the commanding general there also saluted. I'd gotten used to saluting by that time, so I saluted back.

The commanding general said, "Mr. Drain, we wondered if you would relinquish this airplane for us if we'd furnish you a good airplane to go back in when you're ready to go?"

Of course, I didn't know that it was my airplane to relinquish in the first place, so I said, "Sure, I'll turn it over to you now if that's what you want me to say. But I need one when I get ready to go; I mean really go!"

He said, "We'll give you a good fast airplane," which was an understatement. He gave me his card and I was taken by helicopter over to the Justice Building and landed on the White House lawn. During this time, I had an armed guard from the Air Force until I got safely into the Justice Building.

I talked to Mr. Hoover briefly and then watched them do a lot of the experiments such as firing the rifle, looking for prints, ballistic markings, hairs, fibers, blood stains and anything else that later, down the road, might be relevant to evidence which could be used in the prosecution.

By around midnight on Saturday night, they had the plane ready to go, so I called the commanding general. He sent a helicopter which then flew me to one of those fast F-104's. When we came back, we came back in a hurry! Upon arrival in Dallas, I went directly to the police department and had just turned over the evidence to the police chief on Sunday morning at the time Oswald was killed by Ruby. They then had full custody of it.

Regarding Vincent Drain's comment regarding the General at Carswell AFB. I believe his facts are a little skewed. Or maybe its me. At any rate my information has it that Brig Gen Howard W. Moore was commander of the 19th Air Division (headquartered at CarswellAir Force Base), as well as the Commander of Carswell. The head of SAC on November 22, 1963 was General Thomas Power.

http://www.af.mil/information/bios/bio.asp?bioID=6517

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Robert,

Thanks for that info. I wonder which one Drain was speaking of? If you look at Gen. Ryan's bio above you'll notice that he had been commander of both Biggs and Carswell AFB's and later became head of SAC. Prior to that, he was blowing up stuff at the Bikini Atoll. He's also a dead ringer for Gen. James Mattoon Scott in Seven Days in May (or visa versa). He basically spent most of his career (80%) in Texas prior too being assigned to D.C. that's why I find the timing of his visit to JEH curious.

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Well, you raise an interesting point considering General Ryan's career history....General Moore also had been at Carswell previously.

But the fact that General Ryan was not the commander at Carswell on the day of the assassination, would seem to bear out his story. Unless he created a composite character [sarcasm]. There is a big advantage in reminiscing about pivotal events when you're recollecting for a book and not testifying under oath.

Edited by Robert Howard
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