Does the limo slow down?

[Jack White]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

And did they also "fabricate" the Nix and Muchmore films to make them sychronize, as even Dr. Mantik has admitted?

That was fast work on the Muchmore film since it was on television on 11/25/63.

And when they fabricated those other films, how exactly did they do it in way in which there were no improperly spaced gaps between the frames in which images were removed?

And were frames removed during the time that Clint Hill was running? How did they manage to make his motions appear unbroken?

Since Kodak will stop processing movie film for Zapruder's camera at the end of this year, why don't you guys shoot a simple movie in DP and then alter it the way the perps did, using only 1963 technology? Then you can do more than just tell us that they did it, you can at least PROVE that it was possible.

Yes.

[Paul Rigby]

That was fast work on the Muchmore film since it was on television on 11/25/63.

No, it wasn't. The first version of the Z-fake was:

The Valley Independent, (Monessen, Pennsylvania), Tuesday, November 26, 1963, Page 5

Film Showing Assassination Is Released

NEW YORK (UPI) — United Press International Newsfilm early today was first on the air with exclusive film showing the assassination of President Kennedy.

The film is 16mm enlarged from 8mm. It was shown on a New York City television station.

The sequence, shot by an amateur photographer in Dallas Friday, begins with motorcycle police coming around the corner followed by the Kennedy motorcade.

The President is then seen leaning over when the bullets strike. Mrs. Kennedy puts her right arm around the President and he slumps out of view. The film then shows a Secret Service agent running toward the car.

The film was shown in slow motion and also stopped at key points in the assassination. The scene was shown four times at different speeds and under different magnifications.

Copies have been rushed to United Press Newsfilm clients all over the world.

Mary Muchmore shot no footage of the presidential limo on Elm:

Wikipedia:

While visiting her family in Oklahoma for Thanksgiving, Muchmore told them about the film she had taken of the assassination; her family then told the FBI about the film. The FBI initially interviewed Muchmore in December 1963, during which she admitted she had a camera with her but denied that she took any pictures of the assassination scene.[8] The FBI was unaware of the film's existence until a frame enlargement was published in the UPI book Four Days: The Historical Record of the Death of President Kennedy in January 1964.[9] A subsequent FBI interview in February 1964 says:

Mrs. Muchmore stated that after the car turned on Elm Street from Houston Street, she heard a loud noise which at first she thought was a firecracker but then with the crowd of people running in all directions and hearing the two further noises, sounding like gunfire, she advised that she began to run to find a place to hide.[10]

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0080a.gif

“She said she had a movie camera with her...but she advised that she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene”

December 4, 1963

There is a spectacularly good thread on this very issue elsewhere on this site. I must find my own work.

[Robert Harris]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

And did they also "fabricate" the Nix and Muchmore films to make them sychronize, as even Dr. Mantik has admitted?

That was fast work on the Muchmore film since it was on television on 11/25/63.

And when they fabricated those other films, how exactly did they do it in way in which there were no improperly spaced gaps between the frames in which images were removed?

And were frames removed during the time that Clint Hill was running? How did they manage to make his motions appear unbroken?

Since Kodak will stop processing movie film for Zapruder's camera at the end of this year, why don't you guys shoot a simple movie in DP and then alter it the way the perps did, using only 1963 technology? Then you can do more than just tell us that they did it, you can at least PROVE that it was possible.

Yes.

Where are you guys getting this stuff? Could you post the link?

I went to Wikipedia and looked up the article in her name, at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marie_Muchmore

It said she sold the film on the 25th and then it was aired on the 26th. And yes, I was one day off. But there was no mention about her claiming she never made the movie. This is from the article,

She set up her 8 mm Keystone movie camera near the northwest corner of Main Street and Houston Street and awaited the president’s arrival. The Muchmore film consists of seven sequences: six before the assassination, and one during the shooting. Muchmore began filming the presidential motorcade with her movie camera near the northwest corner of Main Street and Houston Street as the motorcade turned into Dealey Plaza. She then turned and went a few yards west to photograph the President's limousine as it went down Elm Street. After the car turned on Elm Street, the three gunshots were heard. Her film captures the fatal head shot, seen from about 138 feet (42 m) away.[5] The film ends seconds later as Secret Service agent Clint Hill runs to board the limousine.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Chris Davidson]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

Jim,

Did you know that Phil Willis appears in the Bell film? He also shows up in Muchmore. How long does it take for him to get from point A to B where we see him in Z.

Did you know Dale Myers was wrong in his syncing of multiple films and why?

Did you discover the "blue dress lady" in Dorman actually appears in the Martin film?

How about "shadowman" in Dorman? Who would have to be Croft, yet the timing doesn't work realistically.

And, there's Charles Hester out of the shadows in Bell?

Have you tried syncing/stabilizing any of the other films, using independant sync points to verify what might and might not be valid.

My list can go on.

The point being, Please don't tell me what is useless to study. I do my own research. Period!!!! If it's valid, it will stand the test of time. If not, other's will point out the shortcomings.

Your comment is akin to me saying:

All of Dr. Costella's work is useless because it's done on the same version of the Z film.

I don't believe that one bit.

chris

[Craig Lamson]

All of Dr. Costella's work is useless because it's done on the same version of the Z film.

chris

Costella's work is useless because he does not have the first clue what he is talking about.

[Dean Hagerman]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

And did they also "fabricate" the Nix and Muchmore films to make them sychronize, as even Dr. Mantik has admitted?

That was fast work on the Muchmore film since it was on television on 11/25/63.

And when they fabricated those other films, how exactly did they do it in way in which there were no improperly spaced gaps between the frames in which images were removed?

And were frames removed during the time that Clint Hill was running? How did they manage to make his motions appear unbroken?

Since Kodak will stop processing movie film for Zapruder's camera at the end of this year, why don't you guys shoot a simple movie in DP and then alter it the way the perps did, using only 1963 technology? Then you can do more than just tell us that they did it, you can at least PROVE that it was possible.

Yes.

Best answer of all time Jack

I bet Robert had a near fatal heart attack reading that

[Robert Harris]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

Jim,

Did you know that Phil Willis appears in the Bell film? He also shows up in Muchmore. How long does it take for him to get from point A to B where we see him in Z.

Did you know Dale Myers was wrong in his syncing of multiple films and why?

Did you discover the "blue dress lady" in Dorman actually appears in the Martin film?

How about "shadowman" in Dorman? Who would have to be Croft, yet the timing doesn't work realistically.

And, there's Charles Hester out of the shadows in Bell?

Have you tried syncing/stabilizing any of the other films, using independant sync points to verify what might and might not be valid.

My list can go on.

The point being, Please don't tell me what is useless to study. I do my own research. Period!!!! If it's valid, it will stand the test of time. If not, other's will point out the shortcomings.

Your comment is akin to me saying:

All of Dr. Costella's work is useless because it's done on the same version of the Z film.

I don't believe that one bit.

chris

Chris, you seem to be making a series of unsupported assertions here. Are you suggesting that all these other films were altered or fabricated as well?

Why don't you take these claims one-at-a-time and explain them in detail? And it would be helpful if you posted the relevant frames in which you believe that people are out of place.

Before challenging people to deal with your conclusions, don't you think it would be helpful to show us why your conclusions are correct?

Robert Harris

[Robert Harris]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

And did they also "fabricate" the Nix and Muchmore films to make them sychronize, as even Dr. Mantik has admitted?

That was fast work on the Muchmore film since it was on television on 11/25/63.

And when they fabricated those other films, how exactly did they do it in way in which there were no improperly spaced gaps between the frames in which images were removed?

And were frames removed during the time that Clint Hill was running? How did they manage to make his motions appear unbroken?

Since Kodak will stop processing movie film for Zapruder's camera at the end of this year, why don't you guys shoot a simple movie in DP and then alter it the way the perps did, using only 1963 technology? Then you can do more than just tell us that they did it, you can at least PROVE that it was possible.

Yes.

Jack, I guess you misunderstood my questions. I didn't ask if they did it. I asked HOW they did it. Why don't we start with the details and the evidence you have which demonstrates that the perps fabricated totally new Zapruder, Nix and Muchmore films.

Please be very specific.

Robert Harris

Edited August 4, 2010 by Robert Harris

[Craig Lamson]

Yes.

Best answer of all time Jack

I bet Robert had a near fatal heart attack reading that

Ignorance continues to breed ignorance...

[Dean Hagerman]

Yes.

Best answer of all time Jack

I bet Robert had a near fatal heart attack reading that

Ignorance continues to breed ignorance...

I know that you laughed when you read Jacks reply Craig

[Craig Lamson]

Yes.

Best answer of all time Jack

I bet Robert had a near fatal heart attack reading that

Ignorance continues to breed ignorance...

I know that you laughed when you read Jacks reply Craig

Of course I did. I'm sure he did not intend it as such but his statement is pure lunacy.

[Paul Rigby]

Where are you guys getting this stuff? Could you post the link?

With pleasure:

Was Muchmore’s film shown on WNEW-TV, New York, on November 26, 1963?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12216

Muchmore’s FBI interview, 4 December 1963:

“…she advised she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene.”

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0080a.gif

[Chris Davidson]

Yes, it slowed dramatically as it came to a complete stop. The evidence is abundant and compelling.

Farting around with a fabricated film and treating it solemnly as though finding some minor slowing

would vindicate its authenticity is entering the theatre of the absurd. Just get ahold of THE GREAT

ZAPRUDER FILM HOAX AND STUDY IT! This pretentious ignorance of the alteration of the film is

beyond silly. This is a huge distraction and massively misleading. Do you really know no better?

Thanks Jim and all,

At this time, I just wanted to see if there was a general consensus among the forum members who replied.

I am working on Zfilm timing/sync marks right now.

chris

There is really no doubt that the limousine slowed. Alvarez did a frame-by-frame study and concluded it went from 12 to 8 MPH.

Jim,

Did you know that Phil Willis appears in the Bell film? He also shows up in Muchmore. How long does it take for him to get from point A to B where we see him in Z.

Did you know Dale Myers was wrong in his syncing of multiple films and why?

Did you discover the "blue dress lady" in Dorman actually appears in the Martin film?

How about "shadowman" in Dorman? Who would have to be Croft, yet the timing doesn't work realistically.

And, there's Charles Hester out of the shadows in Bell?

Have you tried syncing/stabilizing any of the other films, using independant sync points to verify what might and might not be valid.

My list can go on.

The point being, Please don't tell me what is useless to study. I do my own research. Period!!!! If it's valid, it will stand the test of time. If not, other's will point out the shortcomings.

Your comment is akin to me saying:

All of Dr. Costella's work is useless because it's done on the same version of the Z film.

I don't believe that one bit.

chris

Chris, you seem to be making a series of unsupported assertions here. Are you suggesting that all these other films were altered or fabricated as well?

Why don't you take these claims one-at-a-time and explain them in detail? And it would be helpful if you posted the relevant frames in which you believe that people are out of place.

Before challenging people to deal with your conclusions, don't you think it would be helpful to show us why your conclusions are correct?

Robert Harris

Robert,

You can find most, if not all of these items back on Duncan's forum.

I don't want to rehash this if necessary. But here's one that I listed.

A quick briefing on Meyer's mistake if you didn't read it previously.

Myer's does a frame to frame sync of approx 8 different films. He states he is accurate within +/- 1 frame.

The problem with this occurs in Martin's film:

My annotations are in red, the rest is from Myer's document.

Provided, are frames from Martin and Z. Yes, that is the last frame in Martin as he steps down off from the final stair.

Where does this timing mistake rear its ugly head?

Did I say that other films are altered because of this? No

Although, if one is to believe Myer's sync was originally correct among multiple films, then being off by this amount does what to the rest.

My thread was a question about the limo slowing in accordance with the extant film. That is all.

chris

Edited August 4, 2010 by Chris Davidson

[Robert Harris]

Where are you guys getting this stuff? Could you post the link?

With pleasure:

Was Muchmore’s film shown on WNEW-TV, New York, on November 26, 1963?

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=12216

Muchmore’s FBI interview, 4 December 1963:

“…she advised she did not obtain any photographs of the assassination scene.”

http://www.history-matters.com/analysis/witness/witnessMap/documents/wcd_hsca/wcd_hsca_0080a.gif

Is this some kind of a joke??

One or two newspapers failed to mention the name of the person who shot the movie, and some other paper showed frames from the Muchmore film but mistakenly said they were from the Zapruder film??

Yoohoo Paul!! Where in hell do you think they got those Muchmore frames?? You just proved that the film was on the air by the 26th, otherwise they would never have had them.

And why do you cite Muchmore telling the FBI that she had no "photographs" of the shooting?? Of course she didn't take photographs. She filmed the assassination.

And you have to remember that "gruesome" is a relative term. To people who hadn't yet seen the Zapruder film and were still in shock and mourning, seeing blood being blown out from the President's head was undoubtedly more gruesome than they could handle.

Is this a sample of the kind of logic you guys use to promote alterationism?

Robert Harris

[Craig Lamson]

Its not lunacy if you can demonstrate it.

That is what I am waiting for.

What are you waiting for then...demonstrate it.