Did Oswald Practice Tradecraft?

[J. Raymond Carroll]

The only way to explain all of the anomalies in the record is that he was an off the books agent for Angelton--who was the only guy at CIA who had all the LHO files. That is the ineluctable conclusion of his book. And that is pretty much what he says in the new epilogue.

I have no argument with much of what John Newman writes, & have said before that Newman's evidence pointing to Angleton as one of the masterminds of the assassination represents a MAJOR breakthrough in the case.

But while Newman does claim in the new appendix that Oz was working WITH Angleton, he comes nowhere close to PROVING it, just like he offers no proof for his claim that Oz appeared with a rifle on the motorcade route. He does prove that Angleton was working AGAINST Oz, spying on Oz, monitoring his movements, etc.

If Oz really was doing Angleton's bidding, there would have been no need to impersonate him in Mexico, would there?

Jim Root has pointed out that Helms & Angleton knew about Oz's employment at the TSBD from Hosty's FBI reports, and it appears that is when JFK came under pressure to go to Texas (see September post by David Lifton on the thread Review of Horne Vol. 4 & 5.)

But John's book suggests that the file was very much controlled and then selectively fleeced afterwards in that regard.

And that the CIA has lied about it ever since.

I have no argument with that.

[Len Colby]

No one can prove that LHO gave away any U 2 secrets. And John is very careful in that regard.

What John is building toward is the fact that Oswald was closer to the U2 than anyone has written about before.

Therefore the possibility existed--and some like Powers believed--that he had turned over the secrets.

That possibility merited a serious investigation by the CIA, and then the WC.

Neither one ever happened.

Why not?

John's whole book is like this. He shows that time after time in the case of Oswald, things that should have happened did not, and things happened that should not have ie: Angleton's bifurcation of the Oswald file on the eve of the momentous Mexico CIty trip.

The only way to explain all of the anomalies in the record is that he was an off the books agent for Anlgeton--who was the only guy at CIA who had all the LHO files. That is the ineluctable conclusion of his book. And that is pretty much what he says in the new epilogue.

You guys--Colby and Carroll--can ask for the actual file data saying this was the case, but that is just silly and a cheap diversion. The idea that Angleton would have left something like that behind for any inquiry to pick up is just goofy. Yeah, he was running the guy who was set up to take the fall in the JFK case, and he would leave the evidence in the file. Especially with Allen Dulles on the WC. Give me a break. That's something that Bugliosi would say.

But John's book suggests that the file was very much controlled and then selectively fleeced afterwards in that regard.

And that the CIA has lied about it ever since.

“There was nothing new in it. It was the kind of information we had been talking about for a long time already and then Oswald tells us about it. It was of no interest to a high level organization like ours”

Vladimir Semichastny, KGB agent responsible for LHO and head of the agency 1961 – 7

“"That's the biggest pile of bull," laughs Dino Brugioni, the CIA's chief U-2 photoanalyst of that period. "The Soviets already knew how to track the U-2s, so what the hell could he [Oswald] tell them? All he could give them was the fact that there were U-2s at Atsugi, and they already knew that. The actual photo targets were a tightly held secret, and there is no way a radar operator had that information."”

Both as quoted by Gus Russo (link below). An obvious explanation for little or no investigation is that the CIA knew he didn’t know anything of value. Ray made a good point, LHO became interested in Marxism as a teenager, do think like Greg Parker and John Armstrong that he was recruited during his puberty?

You have also yet to explain why there is no indication the KGB took seriously the notion he might have been CIA where did I "ask[ed]for the actual file data saying this was the case".

Ray's view of LHO is different from mine, he seems to like him, I think he was a confused and essentially useless idiot, either that or he was very good at pretending to be one.

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Ray's view of LHO is different from mine, he seems to like him, I think he was a confused and essentially useless idiot, either that or he was very good at pretending to be one.

Saying bad things about Lee Oswald seems to be one of America's favorite pastimes. When they can't prove one set of false accusations against him, they invent another set. First he was a lone assassin, then he was part of a plot against JFK, & now he is called a "useless idiot." This is one pastime in which I absolutely refuse to participate.

I am disappointed to hear Mr. Colby refer to him as a "useless idiot". It brings Mr. Colby down almost to the level of a Lee Farley.

Edited October 22, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[Karl Kinaski]

xxx

Edited October 22, 2010 by Karl Kinaski

[Len Colby]

I am disappointed to hear Mr. Colby refer to him as a "useless idiot". It brings Mr. Colby down almost to the level of a Lee Farley.

Now, I have to say you are bang out of order.

How dare you insult Len like this!

LOL I agree Lee!

God forbid anyone one suggest I am anywhere near your level !!!

Are you serious Ray?

You have to learn to be more tolerant on those whose views vary a little from yours. The guy joined the Marines despite being an avowed Marxist, shot himself accidentally, was considered an idiot by his KGB handlers and Soviet neighbors, expected to have his discharge reclassified as honorable after he got a leave under false pretenses and defected to the USSR and then held a secession of menial jobs. Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence there obviously was something wrong with him, perhaps Greg was right about him having Aspergers.

[Len Colby]

On a separate note are we sure LHO tracked U2's some sources say otherwise

"I was a radar operator – MOS#6741, which is radar

operator, but from what I recall Ozzie was a radio electronics

operator. He was not in the radar section as much as he was in the

radio communications end of our system."

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/lee_oswald/message/18

Myth: Members of MACS-1, including Oswald, controlled the U-2 Aircraft in Atsugi.

Answer: Members of MACS-1, including Oswald, did not control the U-2 Aircraft in Atsugi. Control of these aircraft rested with the personnel of the U-2 Program. Security was handled by their members and the unit was commanded by an Air Force Colonel. The U-2’s checked with MACS-1 before take-offs and reported an Estimated Time of Arrival. Once airborne, there was radio silence. Members of MAG-11 provided flight line security and crash crew rescue teams.

http://themissingchapter.com/leeharveyoswald1.html

[J. Raymond Carroll]

The guy joined the Marines despite being an avowed Marxist,

This man served his country honorably in uniform. He is perfectly entitled to his political views & theories, which at 17 were probably very tentative.

shot himself accidentally,

In the course of his life he inflicted ONE VERY MINOR injury on himself. While President JFK cut his hand with a bread knife: You want to call JFK a uselss idiot on that account? Have YOU ever suffered a minor injury and, if so, were you entirely blameless?

was considered an idiot by his KGB handlers

OH wow, so your best source is the KGB?

and Soviet neighbors,

I'd say you are wrong about that.

expected to have his discharge reclassified as honorable after he got a leave under false pretenses

There is no evidence of false pretenses. By the time he got home his mother had recovered from whatever ailed her.

and defected to the USSR

He went to live in Russia.

and then held a secession of menial jobs.

Ah! here's the clincher. He belonged to the working class. Beneath contempt, old boy!

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence there obviously was something wrong with him, perhaps Greg was right about him having Aspergers.

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence, Mr. Colby obviously has something wrong with him. Maybe the eminent psychiatrist Greg can diagnose it, but my own view is that Mr. Colby's mind has been unable to withstand the incredible barrage of anti-Oswald propaganda that he has been subjected to ever since 11/22/63, and that continues on this and other forums.

[Greg Parker]

I am disappointed to hear Mr. Colby refer to him as a "useless idiot". It brings Mr. Colby down almost to the level of a Lee Farley.

Now, I have to say you are bang out of order.

How dare you insult Len like this!

LOL I agree Lee!

God forbid anyone one suggest I am anywhere near your level !!!

Are you serious Ray?

You have to learn to be more tolerant on those whose views vary a little from yours. The guy joined the Marines despite being an avowed Marxist, shot himself accidentally, was considered an idiot by his KGB handlers and Soviet neighbors, expected to have his discharge reclassified as honorable after he got a leave under false pretenses and defected to the USSR and then held a secession of menial jobs. Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence there obviously was something wrong with him, perhaps Greg was right about him having Aspergers.

Of course I'm right. Asperger's explains all. But don't you start agreeing with me now, for Dog's sake!

[Greg Parker]

The guy joined the Marines despite being an avowed Marxist,

This man served his country honorably in uniform. He is perfectly entitled to his political views & theories, which at 17 were probably very tentative.

There was nothing "tentative" about them if we can take various testimony as Gospel; in particular that of Nelson Delgado. The question is, how he got in after writing to SWP (a letter which was likely "seen" by the FBI) and how he remained under no scrutiny on his return from SE Asia when he really started laying it on thick... but then we see in Delgado's testimony where he states "they let you get away with this in the Marine Corps in a site like this." The commission, incurious as ever, just let that slide without seeking clarification. It does however, suggest that you could only get away with a "commie" outlook on CERTAIN, SPECIFIC bases.

shot himself accidentally,

In the course of his life he inflicted ONE VERY MINOR injury on himself. While President JFK cut his hand with a bread knife: You want to call JFK a uselss idiot on that account? Have YOU ever suffered a minor injury and, if so, were you entirely blameless?

Are you saying that JFK tried to commit suicide with a bread knife... or had you just forgotten about Oswald's attempted "suicide"?

was considered an idiot by his KGB handlers

OH wow, so your best source is the KGB?

The KGB were clueless about Oswald. They were not in the loop. Oswald fit the defector profile, not the agent profile --- which is precisely why he was chosen for this trip.

and Soviet neighbors,

I'd say you are wrong about that.

Your opinion noted.

expected to have his discharge reclassified as honorable after he got a leave under false pretenses

There is no evidence of false pretenses. By the time he got home his mother had recovered from whatever ailed her.

Only someone who hasn't studied the paper trail of his release could say "no false pretenses".

And on the general subject of his early release, why the urgency to get to Russia? He had very little time left to serve, so why did he go through all that trouble just to save a few weeks? I've asked that question before without any direct answer... so I'll give you a clue... it suggests he had to meet a deadline...

and defected to the USSR

He went to live in Russia.

Well spotted!

and then held a secession of menial jobs.

Ah! here's the clincher. He belonged to the working class. Beneath contempt, old boy!

Well now boyo... a day or two ago, I came across a post to aajfk by Herbert Blenner...

here is a quote from that post:

"On October 9, 1962 he went to the Dallas office of the Texas Employment Commission where he expressed a reluctance to work in the industrial field. He indicated an interest in writing. An employment counselor testified, on the basis of a general aptitude test Oswald had taken, that he had some aptitude in that area, 'because the verbal score is high and the clerical score is high.' While that counselor found that he was qualified to handle many different types of jobs, because of his need for immediate employment she attempted to obtain for him any job that was available at the time. Oswald made qualifying marks in 19 of 23 categories included on the general aptitude examination and scored 127 on the verbal test, as compared with 50 percent of the people taking it who score less than 100. The counselor testified that there was some indication that Oswald was capable of doing college work and noted that Oswald's verbal and clerical potential was 'outstanding'."

Len needs to learn that doing any job at all to support your family; especially knowing you are capable of much more, is about as honorable as a man can get. Had he lived long enough of course, he may have acheived the job status that Len feels is so important to one's standing and credibility... but at 23, and with a wife and two kids it was any port (or Book Depository) in a storm...

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence there obviously was something wrong with him, perhaps Greg was right about him having Aspergers.

Despite on occasions demonstrating above average intelligence, Mr. Colby obviously has something wrong with him. Maybe the eminent psychiatrist Greg can diagnose it, but my own view is that Mr. Colby's mind has been unable to withstand the incredible barrage of anti-Oswald propaganda that he has been subjected to ever since 11/22/63, and that continues on this and other forums.

As I've said before, I'm not qualified to tie my own shoelaces... but now that you bring it up, I'd pit my ability to diagnose above most doctors, and I have the track record to prove it. All you need are all the available facts and some good research skills... researching medical cases is really no different to researching any other subject. The same principles apply... as for Len... sorry... not enough data...

Edited October 23, 2010 by Greg Parker

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Everyone knows I'm up in the top echelon of Oswald haters, Len. I believe only Henry Wade outclassed me an "Oswald accuser."

Even Henry Wade cannot compete with you in the category of MARINA ACCUSERS! (see thread on Marina Oswald).

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Sorry! Another duplicate post! I am duped today.

Edited October 23, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

Sorry! Duplicate post.

Edited October 23, 2010 by J. Raymond Carroll

[J. Raymond Carroll]

I'd pit my ability to diagnose above most doctors,

Since most doctors are not very good at diagnosis, (without the benefit of machines) that is not much of a boast.

All you need are all the available facts and some good research skills

Pretending to diagnose someone you have not even personally examined is medical malpractice & grounds for revocation of your license!

[J. Raymond Carroll]

As I've said before, I'm not qualified to tie my own shoelaces...

I will not start a fight with you on this issue, Greg. No arguments from me!

[Greg Parker]

Greg Parker, on 23 October 2010 - 02:01 AM, said:

I'd pit my ability to diagnose above most doctors,

Since most doctors are not very good at diagnosis, (without the benefit of machines) that is not much of a boast.

I never claimed it was, Ray.

----------------------------------------------

All you need are all the available facts and some good research skills

Pretending to diagnose someone you have not even personally examined is medical malpractice & grounds for revocation of your license!

Ha! Fooled 'em. I haven't got one!

Greg Parker, on 23 October 2010 - 02:01 AM, said:

As I've said before, I'm not qualified to tie my own shoelaces...

I will not start a fight with you on this issue, Greg. No arguments from me!

Truly awsome from the person who recently chastised Len after Len had ridiculed Oswald for being among the working class.

And your inability or unwillingness to discuss anything I said relating to Oswald is once again on record.