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Posted (edited)

A better shot of the white car... seems to have had the time to back into its spot right in front of the emergency entrance...

doubtful that other cars were already there for that maneuver

(edit: my mistake... pilot car FOLLOWED the limo to Parkland so was not there before limo to park as they did... but still may be the car..)

DJ

All,

I researched the entire motorcade in great detail (and continue to do so) for my booklet on the motorcade vehicles and its occupants.

The “Pilot Car” was driven by DPD Captain Perdue W. Lawrence and was approximately ½ mile ahead of Chief Curry in the “Lead Car”. Having researched the entire motorcade for my booklet on the motorcade vehicles and occupants,

The car next to the limousine in both of the Parkland photos in this thread is clearly an ambulance. Lawrence was not driving an ambulance as the Pilot Car.

In the photo taken from an elevation ( a FWST photo), the white sedan with its driver’s side door open at the top left of the photo is Curry’s car. The white sedan at the bottom of the photo, which has pulled into the parking lot in the direction opposite all of the motorcade cars, could be anyone’s car, including the Pilot Car or Inspector Putnam’s car.

Todd

If Josiah Thompson happens to be a dead end you might check some other possibilities

http://www.washingtondecoded.com/site/2008/11/11-seconds-in-dallas-redux-new-old-evidence.html

http://www.copweb.be/Les%20temoins%20de%20Dealey%20Plaza-4.htm

Edited by Robert Howard
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Posted (edited)

FWIW I found some color footage on the " 3 shots that changed america DVD that seem to show a white car similar to the currie car, that appears to be on it's own.

In the surrounding frames I can't see any cars behind it. but I can't say 100% because the cop is parcially blocking the view..

I'm not sure who's film footage this frame is from. ?

Edited by Robin Unger
Posted

A better shot of the white car... seems to have had the time to back into its spot right in front of the emergency entrance...

doubtful that other cars were already there for that maneuver

(edit: my mistake... pilot car FOLLOWED the limo to Parkland so was not there before limo to park as they did... but still may be the car..)

DJ

All,

I researched the entire motorcade in great detail (and continue to do so) for my booklet on the motorcade vehicles and its occupants.

The “Pilot Car” was driven by DPD Captain Perdue W. Lawrence and was approximately ½ mile ahead of Chief Curry in the “Lead Car”.

The car next to the limousine in both of the Parkland photos in this thread is clearly an ambulance. Lawrence was not driving an ambulance as the Pilot Car.

In the photo taken from an elevation ( a FWST photo), the white sedan with its driver’s side door open at the top left of the photo is Curry’s car. The white sedan at the bottom of the photo, which has pulled into the parking lot in the direction opposite all of the motorcade cars, could be anyone’s car, including the Pilot Car or Inspector Putnam’s car.

Todd

Thanks Todd,

I thought somebody should have been down this street before.

That might be the tail end of the Pilot Car in the photo Robin posted, but I don't see it anywhere else.

I would think the best chance of getting a photo of the Pilot Car is at Parkland, but don't see it yet.

And Todd, as for the occupants of the Pilot Car, besides Perdue W. Lawrence driving, can you list the others and

where they were sitting?

Thanks,

And thanks to all who responded, (and will try to check out the Thompson reference)

BK

Posted (edited)

A better shot of the white car... seems to have had the time to back into its spot right in front of the emergency entrance...

doubtful that other cars were already there for that maneuver

(edit: my mistake... pilot car FOLLOWED the limo to Parkland so was not there before limo to park as they did... but still may be the car..)

DJ

All,

I researched the entire motorcade in great detail (and continue to do so) for my booklet on the motorcade vehicles and its occupants.

The "Pilot Car" was driven by DPD Captain Perdue W. Lawrence and was approximately ½ mile ahead of Chief Curry in the "Lead Car".

The car next to the limousine in both of the Parkland photos in this thread is clearly an ambulance. Lawrence was not driving an ambulance as the Pilot Car.

In the photo taken from an elevation ( a FWST photo), the white sedan with its driver's side door open at the top left of the photo is Curry's car. The white sedan at the bottom of the photo, which has pulled into the parking lot in the direction opposite all of the motorcade cars, could be anyone's car, including the Pilot Car or Inspector Putnam's car.

Todd

Thanks Todd,

I thought somebody should have been down this street before.

That might be the tail end of the Pilot Car in the photo Robin posted, but I don't see it anywhere else.

I would think the best chance of getting a photo of the Pilot Car is at Parkland, but don't see it yet.

And Todd, as for the occupants of the Pilot Car, besides Perdue W. Lawrence driving, can you list the others and

where they were sitting?

Thanks,

And thanks to all who responded, (and will try to check out the Thompson reference)

BK

Hi Bill.

I was in the process of editing as you posted.

Full image of the white car ,

Edited by Robin Unger
Posted (edited)

In the frames below the currie car appears to be much closer to the Limo than when we see the white car on it's own turning the corner in the previous frame posted above. ?

Currie's car appears to be just 3-4 car lengths in front of the limo.

( 4-lead motorcycles, currie car, .Limo )

Edited by Robin Unger
Posted (edited)

Thanks Robin,

That looks like it!

What is it?

A 1962 Ford Fairlaine?

BK

I'm not sure, i am not good at identifying american cars.

Here are three frames showing a close up of Curries car from the Dallas Cinema Associates Film.

Edited by Robin Unger
Posted

I received this Email from Gary Mack.

Thanks Gary.

Robin,

Interesting observation! The white car frame you posted comes from the Jackie Tindel film at Main & Harwood. Jackie donated his film to The Sixth Floor Museum in 2002. I’ve always thought the car belonged to Curry, who drove his personal white car, but now I wonder. Curry had three passengers and two of them can be seen in Tindel’s film, but the man in the right rear is hidden in the shadow.

The unedited Tindel film pans a little farther to the right and I can see all the way up Harwood past the Elm and Pacific cross streets:

Guess what? The motorcade wasn’t there yet, which tells me this particular white car might possibly be the pilot car. According to what little is known about it, the pilot car drove several blocks ahead of the motorcade, whereas Curry was just a couple hundred feet ahead of the lead motorcycles and JFK.

I have no idea why Jackie filmed that scene, tut perhaps he recognized Chief Curry in the driver’s seat?

Gary Mack

Posted (edited)

Todd wrote:

The "Pilot Car" was driven by DPD Captain Perdue W. Lawrence and was approximately ½ mile ahead of Chief Curry in the "Lead Car".

IS THIS IT? From Helmer B. Video?

Google Image Result for http://i.ytimg.com/vi/GU2CORn61_w/0.jpg

From the web site: Asian Celebrities - dallas police

Scroll down to near the last videos, past Murder of Tippit video

Asian Celebrities - The Murder of Dallas Police Officer JD Tippit (English Version)

and classic photo of Mrs. Tippit and Jim Leavell

Asian Celebrities - Dallas Police Officer JD Tippit's widow Marie Tippit

TO: Asian Celebrities - The Dallas Police preparing for the visit of President Kennedy (English Version)

Video 6:46 minutes long. With details of the pilot car.

www.sitecenter.dk/dealeyplaza

Dallas Police Captain Perdue Lawrence (Accident Prevention Bureau) was given the task of organising traffic control for the motorcade, including the manning of the various overpasses along the route a

Category: News & Politics

Length: 00:03:23.500

Tags: JFK Assassination DallasTexas November 22nd 1963 JesseCurry John F. Kennedy DeputyPolice Chief George LumpkinLieutenant Colonel Whitmeyer

Lumplin testified before HSCA.

Whitmeyer was scheduled to testify but died.

Can someone post his obit from April 18, 1978 headlined: "Whitmeyer Found Dead"?

Comments on The Dallas Police preparing for the visit of President Kennedy (English Version)

Among the Comments on this video:

Check out the connections between Lt Col. George Whitmeyer-Jack Crichton-Deputy Police Chief George Lumpkin-George HW Bush-The 488th Military Intelligence Unit which had 50 members of the Dallas Police.

The Secret Service ...

The Secret Service was in control of everything.Oswald had no control of the Secret Service.Even Chief Curry admitted he felt shots came from the picket fence. Of course this wasnt until after J Edgar Hoover was dead.

HelmerВґs videos ...

HelmerВґs videos about the JFK assassination are some of the very best there are. This is another brilliant one and gives further support to the only logical conclusion about this crime: That it was a conspiracy, including multiple shooters.

ALSO SEE:

Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XX Page 497 of 818

AARC Public Digital Library - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XX, pg

AARC Public Digital Library - Warren Commission Hearings, Volume XX, pg

www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh20/html/WH_Vol20_0259a.htm

July 15, 1964 Re: Presidential Motorcade assignments.

NAMEBASE - Perdue W Lawrence

Perdue W Lawrence

Duffy,J. Ricci,V. The Assassination of John F. Kennedy. 1992

V. Palamara: Mystery of JFK's motorcycle escort

Groden,R. Livingstone,H. High Treason. 1990

Hepburn,J. Farewell America. 1968

IX. DPD Captain Perdue W. Lawrence---

A. To the Warren Commission:

[7 H 580-581; bracketed coments by the author]

Mr. Griffin: At the time of your first meeting with Chief Batchelor were you given any special

instructions about the protection of the President?

Captain Lawrenc:. None.

Mr. Griffin: When was the next time you received some instructions from one of your

superiors?

Captain Lawrence: The next time was, to the best of my knowledge, the motorcade

assignments--possibly 2 days before the President arrived---I asked how we would escort this

motorcade.

Mr. Griffin: And with whom did you discuss that?

Captain Lawrence: Chief Lunday and Chief Batchelor.

Mr. Griffin: Was anybody from the Secret Service present at that time?

Captain Lawrence: Not at that time no.

[important to keep in mind]

Mr. Griffin: What were you told about the purpose of the officers that were being provided,

if anything?

Captain Lawrence: I was told that there would be these lead motorcycle officers, and that

we would also have these other officers alongside [not to the rear of]the President's car and the Vice President's

car, and some of the others that would be in the motorcade, and approximately how many

officers would be needed for the escort, and at that time I had prepared a list of 18 solo

motorcycle officers, this included three solo sergeants.

I was also instructed that about this motorcade--that when it reached Stemmons

Expressway, Chief Batchelor told me that he wanted a solo motorcycle officer in each traffic

lane, each of the five traffic lanes waiting for the motorcade, so that no vehicles, on Stemmons

Expressway would pass the motorcade at all and he wanted these solo motorcycle officers to

pull away from the escort and get up there on Stemmons Freeway and block the traffic, and

some of these officers, he stated, would pull past the Presidential car.

[...]

Mr. Griffin: When did that conversation take place?

Captain Lawrence: That conversation took place about the 20th of November---2 days

before.

Mr. Griffin: Now, did you receive another set of instructions or orders after that?

Captain LAWRENCE. Yes; on the evening of November 21, this was the first time that I had

attended any security meeting at all in regards to this motorcade. At approximately 5 p.m. I

was told to report to the conference room on the third floor, and when I arrived at the

conference room the deputy chiefs were in there, there were members of the Secret

Service--Mr. Sorrels, Captain Gannaway, Captain Souter of radio patrol, and Capt. Glen King,

deputy chiefs, assistant chiefs, and Chief Curry, and one gentleman, who I assume was in

charge of the security for the Secret Service. This was the first time I had attended any

conferences in regard to the security of this escort, and I listened in on most of the discussion

and I heard one of the Secret Service men say that President Kennedy did not desire any

motorcycle officer directly on each side of him, between him and the crowd, but he would

want the officers to the rear. This conversation I overheard as Chief Batchelor was using a

blackboard showing how he planned to handle this--how plans had been made to cover the

escort.

[...]

Mr. Griffin: Was there ever any discussion that you heard about taking precautions

designed to prevent some sort of assault on the President that would be more severe than

simply placards, picketing, and people throwing rotten eggs and vegetables, and things like

that?

Captain Lawrence:. Not to my knowledge, other than the fact that the Secret Service man

in there--when it was mentioned about these motorcycle officers alongside the Presidents car,

he said, "No, these officers should be back and if any people started a rush toward the car, if

there was any movement at all where the President was endangered in any way, these officers

would be in a position to gun their motors and get between them and the Presidential car,"

and he mentioned, of course, the security and safety of the President and those words were

mentioned.

[...]

Mr. Griffin:. Let's go back a little bit and let me ask you--when did you first give instructions

to the men who were actually stationed along the route as to what they should do?

Captain Lawrence: I gave them those instructions on the morning of November 22 and I

had with me at the time--I had the detail with me and some notes that I had written...

X. Asst. Chief of DPD Charles Batchelor**, Deputy Chief George L. Lumpkin, & Deputy Chief M.W. Stevenson---

A. 11/30/63 report to Chief Curry:

[21 H 571]

"[DPD Captain Perdue] Lawrence then said there would be four (4) motorcycles on either side of the motorcade immediately to the rear of the President's vehicle [as borne out by his 11/21/63 report***]. MR. LAWSON [OF THE SECRET SERVICE] STATED THAT THIS WAS TOO MANY, that HE [Lawson]thought two (2) motorcycles on either side would be sufficient, about even with the rear fender of the President's car." [emphasis added]

B. ***DPD Captain Perdue Lawrence Exhibit re: motorcycle distribution DATED NOVEMBER 21, 1963, the day before the assassination [handwritten comments from 7/24/64; 20 H 489; same as HSCA JFK Exhibit F-679]:

In addition to DPD motorcycles officers B.W. Hargis and B.J. Martin, H.B. MCLAIN AND J.W. COURSON WERE SLATED TO RIDE ON THE LEFT SIDE OF JFK'S LIMOUSINE. Also, in addition to DPD motorcycle officers D.L.Jackson and J.M. Chaney, C.A. HAYGOOD AND M.L. BAKER WERE SLATED TO RIDE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF JFK'S LIMOUSINE!

Edited by William Kelly
Posted (edited)

This video says that Lumpkin was the driver of the Pilot Car, which is also what PDS says.

So which is it, was Lawrence or Lumpin the driver?

And can anybody get a copy of Whitmeyer's obit and the obits for Lawrence and/or Lumplin, if they are dead?

Lawrence arrangedthe escort with 8 mc officers around the presidents car.

Secret Service Agent Lawson disagreed. He then decided thattwo motorcycles on either side would be sufficient.

A pilot car preceded the party by a quarter of a mile.

The driver of the car was Deputy Chief G. L Lumpkin.

Two homicide detectives were also in the Pilot Car.

A fourth occupant was Lt. Col. George Whitmeyer

Col. Whitmeyer was the Commanding Officer of the NorthernDistrict of Texas and gave the military "stand down" order.

But Lumplin was the highest ranking reserve Col. In the Military Intelligenceand had to have given Whitmeyer this order.

Lumpkin never testified before the Warren Commission eventhough he was Deputy Chief of the Dallas Police and drove the Pilot Car. Hetestified before the HSCA in 1977.

Lt. Col. Whitmyer was due to testify in 1978.

April 18, 1978newspaper headline "Whitmeyer found dead."

Edited by William Kelly
Posted (edited)

Thanks Robin,

That looks like it!

What is it?

A 1962 Ford Fairlaine?

BK

Bill, the Fairlane was a smaller car in that era. This car is obviously the full-size model [which eventually evolved into the Crown Vic police cruisers we all know from the past 30-odd years], a Ford Galaxie...or it may have been the stripped full-size model, the Custom 500. The concave grille tells me this was a 1963 model.

63 Ford Galaxie 4-door

Edited by Mark Knight
Posted

From POTP:

motorcade.jpg

The Pilot car and the Lead Car were both white Ford Sedan.

The Pilot car was driven by Lumpkin with four others on board.

Todd meant propably the Advance Car which was driven Lawrence.

Robin, nice catch.

It is actually really the Pilot Car (both cars were the same) and Lumpkin behaved in the same fashion

leaning his left arm out of the window as Curry did, or Curry drove temporarily faster and more away from

the motorcade has he did in DP.

best

Martin

Posted (edited)

From POTP:

motorcade.jpg

The Pilot car and the Lead Car were both white Ford Sedan.

The Pilot car was driven by Lumpkin with four others on board.

Todd meant propably the Advance Car which was driven Lawrence.

Robin, nice catch.

It is actually really the Pilot Car (both cars were the same) and Lumpkin behaved in the same fashion

leaning his left arm out of the window as Curry did, or Curry drove temporarily faster and more away from

the motorcade has he did in DP.

best

Martin

Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas

http://www.maryferre...84&relPageId=72

Activities of pilot car on November 22, 1963.

Edited by Robert Howard
Posted

From POTP:

motorcade.jpg

The Pilot car and the Lead Car were both white Ford Sedan.

The Pilot car was driven by Lumpkin with four others on board.

Todd meant propably the Advance Car which was driven Lawrence.

Robin, nice catch.

It is actually really the Pilot Car (both cars were the same) and Lumpkin behaved in the same fashion

leaning his left arm out of the window as Curry did, or Curry drove temporarily faster and more away from

the motorcade has he did in DP.

best

Martin

Commission Document 81.1 - AG Texas

http://www.maryferre...84&relPageId=72

Activities of pilot car on November 22, 1963.

Thanks Robert,

You hit a home run with that doc.

It answers many of our questions, such as seating pattern :

Lumpkin driving, Turner right front

Senkel left rear, Whitemeyer center rear, Puterbauch right rear.

And introduces yet another federal intelligence/law enforcement agency into the mix -

the US Alcohol Tax Unit - who are these guys? Did they file reports or what?

And what happened to the news film that Pierce Allman took inside the TSBD before it was sealed?

There's a lot there, thanks.

BK

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