The Pilot Car

[Tony Frank]

These are excerpts from a letter that Chiefs Batchelor, Lumpkin, and Stevenson wrote to Curry on 30 Novemver 1963. It is contained in the Texas Attorney General report and has info on the pilot car.

[William Kelly]

Thanks Tony,

It appears that is the same document that Robert refers to.

How come you don't post the whole thing?

You leave out the best parts.

Why not include the part that says, "agents of the US Alochol Tax Unit assisted in the search...." ?

Who were those guys and did they file reports, and if so where are they?

Is this a federal agency at the TSBD we have never heard of before?

Or the interesting fact that it was Limpkin who called Fitz's attention to the fact that Oswald was not there

and was suddenly determined to be a suspect?

Why would Limplin suddenly thrust himself on Fitz to call attention to Oswald?

And who else was in the Advance Car with Perdue Lawrence, and why didn't they do their job of

securing the overpasses and buildings?

Please post the entire document if you are able.

I am unable to do so with this computer.

Thanks,

And also, we need to find Limpkin's HSCA testimony. Who can provide a link to that, and if not, why not?

And there are also reports from the homicide detectives who were in the Pilot Car.

BK

[Ian Kingsbury]

Thanks Tony,

It appears that is the same document that Robert refers to.

How come you don't post the whole thing?

You leave out the best parts.

Why not include the part that says, "agents of the US Alochol Tax Unit assisted in the search...." ?

Who were those guys and did they file reports, and if so where are they?

Is this a federal agency at the TSBD we have never heard of before?

Or the interesting fact that it was Limpkin who called Fitz's attention to the fact that Oswald was not there

and was suddenly determined to be a suspect?

Why would Limplin suddenly thrust himself on Fitz to call attention to Oswald?

And who else was in the Advance Car with Perdue Lawrence, and why didn't they do their job of

securing the overpasses and buildings?

Please post the entire document if you are able.

I am unable to do so with this computer.

Thanks,

And also, we need to find Limpkin's HSCA testimony. Who can provide a link to that, and if not, why not?

And there are also reports from the homicide detectives who were in the Pilot Car.

BK

Bill

It has been indicated that Lumpkin stopped at the corner of Houston and Elm (near TSBD) surely just the presence of the car would be an indicator of the approx time for the limo to arrive at that corner why did he need to get out and inform the officers they were on thier way. We know the entourage was late and who was on the 6th floor at the time Or was this a timing stop to inform others of the 2 minute warning?.

Ian

Edited January 23, 2011 by Ian Kingsbury

[William Kelly]

I don't think they got out of the car, they just stopped at Main and Houston and Houston and Elm and talked to the cops on the corner saying the motorcade was coming. Could the Sixth Floor Sniper hear what they said from six floors up?

Here's more:

Fay M. Turner Testimony: http://www.jfk-assassination.de/warren/wch/vol7/page217.php

F. M. Turner Report: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-001.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-002.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-003.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-004.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-005.gif;http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-006.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1549-007.gif

Billy L. Senkel: http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-001.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-002.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-003.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-004.gif; http://jfk.ci.dallas.tx.us/15/1548-005.gif

[Mark Knight]

You leave out the best parts.

Why not include the part that says, "agents of the US Alochol Tax Unit assisted in the search...." ?

Who were those guys and did they file reports, and if so where are they?

Is this a federal agency at the TSBD we have never heard of before?

BK

Seems to me that "US Alcohol Tax Unit" officers would be ATF agents, under the Department of the Treasury. So how did the ATF agents get dispatchd to the TSBD, and why haven't we seen any reports from any of them? Seems rather curious to me. Maybe someone needs to do a search of Treasury/ATF files as well? I mean, the government has managed to hide a lot of pertinent information is less likely places.

Edited January 23, 2011 by Mark Knight

[William Kelly]

You leave out the best parts.

Why not include the part that says, "agents of the US Alochol Tax Unit assisted in the search...." ?

Who were those guys and did they file reports, and if so where are they?

Is this a federal agency at the TSBD we have never heard of before?

BK

Seems to me that "US Alcohol Tax Unit" officers would be ATF agents, under the Department of the Treasury. So how did the ATF agents get dispatchd to the TSBD, and why haven't we seen any reports from any of them? Seems rather curious to me. Maybe someone needs to do a search of Treasury/ATF files as well? I mean, the government has managed to hide a lot of pertinent information is less likely places.

Hi Mark, I wouldn't be so fast on discounting the idea that there was a separate "US Alochol Tax Unit" that may be affiliated with ATF.

I do think you are right however, that someone should search and focus on the ATF files on the assassination, and see what they have to say.

There were ATF agents in Dallas and at Dealey Plaza - I think one met with Hosty and Coyle the Army Intel Agent for breakfast and they were meeting about ATF investigation of gun sales.

Also, while Gannaway and Revell were the Capt and Lt in the division of DPD that were responsible for organized crime and subversives and running undercover operatives, another Dallas policeman wouldn't refer to them as "Fish and Game Management," especially if there is a Texas State Division that's called "Fish and Game Management." And they wouldn't be responsible for "management" of illegal games of chance, but rather the management of the wildlife.

While I appreciate the possibilities and try to keep an open mind, I'm convinced that the Dallas cop who says there were Fish and Game Management officers in the TSBD immediately after the assassination, knew what he was talking about, and although I'm not certain, yet, I'll bet there is a federal "US Alochol Tax Unit" and their job is to makes sure everybody who sells booze pays the federal tax on it, ala cigs and gas.

On a similar note, Gary Mack says that the guy who filed a report that says that TV reporter Pierce Allman was permitted to stay in the TSBD after it was sealed to film is incorrect, and that they were probably referring to Tom Alyea.

BK

[Bernice Moore]

This video says that Lumpkin was the driver of the Pilot Car, which is also what PDS says.

So which is it, was Lawrence or Lumpin the driver?

And can anybody get a copy of Whitmeyer's obit and the obits for Lawrence and/or Lumplin, if they are dead?

Lawrence arrangedthe escort with 8 mc officers around the presidents car.

Secret Service Agent Lawson disagreed. He then decided thattwo motorcycles on either side would be sufficient.

A pilot car preceded the party by a quarter of a mile.

The driver of the car was Deputy Chief G. L Lumpkin.

Two homicide detectives were also in the Pilot Car.

A fourth occupant was Lt. Col. George Whitmeyer

Col. Whitmeyer was the Commanding Officer of the NorthernDistrict of Texas and gave the military "stand down" order.

But Lumplin was the highest ranking reserve Col. In the Military Intelligenceand had to have given Whitmeyer this order.

Lumpkin never testified before the Warren Commission eventhough he was Deputy Chief of the Dallas Police and drove the Pilot Car. Hetestified before the HSCA in 1977.

Lt. Col. Whitmyer was due to testify in 1978.

April 18, 1978newspaper headline "Whitmeyer found dead."

Bill these may be of some help..fwtaw...b

[William Kelly]

Thanks Bernice,

No mention of Perdue W. Lawrence and the Advance Car.

No mention of Whitemeyer, who we know was not on the SS list but invited by Lumpkin.

Says Motorcycles first, ahead of Pilot Car - though I don't think there were any motorcycles

ahead of Pilot Car. Only in front of Curry's Lead Car.

I think we have a pretty good handle on the Pilot Car and what they did.

Still must confirm that as a Ford Galaxy - 1962, though that what it looks like (Thanks Mark).

The Pilot Car went to Parkland, where i think Peuterbauch stayed, helping with security and crowd control,

while the others, without entering Parkland, quickly returned to the scene of the crime, and TSBD,

with the additional passenger - SS Agent Sorrels.

Lumpkin then orders one of the detectives to check out the boxcar behind TSBD while

the other detective talked to witnesses and took them to Sheriff's office across the street

to take their statements, and there's a number of reports in the Dallas City Archives with

Senkel's name on them of interviews with TSBD employees - including Joe Molina, Avery Davis,

Ruth Nelson and Mrs. H. G. W.

Turner and Lumpkin then mix it up at TSBD and Lumpkin learns that Oswald is missing and

encourages Truley to tell Fritz about him -

I still haven't found Lumpkin's HSCA testimony, and if its on line and somebody can find it, that would

be a real gem.

Larry Haapenin also interviewed Peuterbauch and Whitmeyer, and has shared copies of transcripts with

other researchers, as they are quoted as sources in notes.

Are either of these available on line? If not, does anybody have them?

If not I'll ask Larry, unless someone

already has.

Then there's Whitemeyer's obit that is shown in the video - April 18, 1978, which must be from a Dallas or

Fort Worth newspaper.

Can anyone find that?

Thanks,

BK

Edited January 24, 2011 by William Kelly

[Bernice Moore]

BILL This is from a post re the motorcade made by Greg Burnham long time ago on Rich's Forum, in reply to a member, re Putterbaugh...I figure, it will be aok with Greg to post this information for you...best b

Wasn't advance man Jack Puterbaugh in the pilot car?

Yes.

[sources-RIF#1541000110100; 1541000110065; 1541000110044; 16 H 950-951

(same as 1541000110032); 1541000110190; "Inside The Secret Service"

video 1995 (Lawson); Palomara's interview with Lawson 9/27/92; 17 H 601,

618; 18 H 789; Palomara's interviews with Godfrey 5/30/96, 6/7/96, and

letter dated 11/24/97 ]

Winston G. Lawson (WHD): Advance agent (arrived in Dallas 11/12/63);

rode in lead car in motorcade; remains in Dallas after AF1 departs to

assist in the investigation [18 H 788]

David B. Grant (WHD): assisted in the advance (arrived in Dallas

11/18/63 from JFK's Florida trip): Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital;

remains in Dallas after AF1 departs until the early morning hours of

11/24/63 [18 H 788]; although seemingly removed from the immediate area,

Grant was involved in the drinking incident [18 H 684]

SAIC of Dallas office Forrest V. Sorrels: assisted in the advance;

rode in lead car

DNC Advance Man Jacob L. "Jack" Puterbaugh (arrived in Dallas

11/12/63); rode in pilot car in motorcade

Kivett: Advance Agent, LBJ Detail (11/18-11/22 [17 H 601]); rode in V.P.

follow-up car in motorcade

Robert A. Steuart (Dallas Office): Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital

John Joe Howlett (Dallas office): Trade Mart, then Parkland

Hospital; rode in limousine as it was taken back to the C-130 (Hickey,

driver; Kinney drove the follow-up car back)

Roger C. Warner (Dallas office): Love Field

Kellerman: limo

Greer: driver of limo

Roberts: commander of follow-up car

Kinney: driver of follow-up car

Hill: follow-up car

McIntyre: follow-up car

Ready: follow-up car

Landis: folow-up car

Bennett: follow-up car

Hickey: follow-up car

Youngblood: LBJ's car

Johns: V.P. follow-up car

Taylor: V.P. follow-up car

Stout: Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital (+rode in hearse)

Berger: Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital (+drove hearse)

Johnsen: Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital (+CE399)

Olsson: Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital

Sulliman: Trade Mart, then Parkland Hospital

Lawton: Love Field

O'Leary: Love Field

Rybka: Love Field

GO_SECURE

monk

[Martin Hinrichs]

I received this Email from Gary Mack.

Thanks Gary.

Robin,

Interesting observation! The white car frame you posted comes from the Jackie Tindel film at Main & Harwood. Jackie donated his film to The Sixth Floor Museum in 2002. I’ve always thought the car belonged to Curry, who drove his personal white car, but now I wonder. Curry had three passengers and two of them can be seen in Tindel’s film, but the man in the right rear is hidden in the shadow.

The unedited Tindel film pans a little farther to the right and I can see all the way up Harwood past the Elm and Pacific cross streets:

Guess what? The motorcade wasn’t there yet, which tells me this particular white car might possibly be the pilot car. According to what little is known about it, the pilot car drove several blocks ahead of the motorcade, whereas Curry was just a couple hundred feet ahead of the lead motorcycles and JFK.

I have no idea why Jackie filmed that scene, tut perhaps he recognized Chief Curry in the driver’s seat?

Gary Mack

Hi Robin,

it's sometimes not easy to guess distances only looking at the old footages in particular when

it goes to unknown areas like Harwood and Main.

Thanks to Gary Mack for providing the informations.

I went into Google Earth and measured the distance from Main and Harwood corner to the point

where Harwood made a west turn facing north. That should roughly capture the distance and what should be in sight.

The distance is ~185 Yards!

Thats more then i've expected.

As you said correctly the Police Officer in front of the camera is hiding important parts

but i think at least some motorcycles flanking the Queen Mary should have been in side at that distance.

Clearly, this is not the case.

I said earlier that Curry's car was further away from the motorcade in DP.

I reviewed again the Hughes film on Houston and the distance between the SS-100-X and Lead car was just some 55 yards

which makes my early claim pretty obsolete.

I went as you too into "3 Shots That Changed America" and made a screenshot from the Pilot car and

highlighted this image with Photoshop.

Now a person is visible sitting directly behind Lumpkin in the backseat.

Well done Robin. I believe now that this is indeed the Pilot Car.

Your Discover.

best to you

Martin

[Martin Hinrichs]

Here another frame from "3 Shots That Changed America" which shows possibly the Pilot car on Main Street

in dark shadow and pretty fuzzy.

best

Martin

[Robin Unger]

Hi Martin.

Cheers.

Thanks for the comments.

Robin.

[William Kelly]

Well, as Mark Knight has shown, the car is a four door 1963 model Ford Gallexy 500.

If that is the Pilot Car in Robin's last photo, that would be Detective Billy L. Senkel in the left rear seat.

Didn't all of the Dallas detectives wear large, ten gallon white cowboy hats?

BK

[David Josephs]

Found this while wandering around looking for some Oswald chronology data....

Further confirmation of the occupants and locations.

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=40392&relPageId=17

[William Kelly]

How did the Sixth Floor Sniper Know when the Target Car would be in the Kill Zone?

I think the Pilot Car told him.

Since the Pilot Car pulled over to the curb at Houston and Elm and the passengers talked briefly to one of the three traffic and crowd

control cops standing on that corner, the passengers in the car were facing the TSBD, and the Sixth Floor Sniper's Window was sixty to eighty feet away,

or less than thirty yards on a football field. Could what is being said on the ground be heard clearly on the Sixth Floor?

Less than an hour later, a deputy sheriff called down from the same window to Capt. Fritz and told him that was the Sniper's Nest, and I don't believe he had to yell.

The exact distance can be figured out by determining the distance from the curb to the TSBD building and the height of the building

will give you two sides to the angle, the thrid side being the distance between the curb and Sixth Floor window.

Since the car was facing the TSBD the report to the policeman would have been directed towards the assassin and he

could possibly have heard it.

Or he could have just surmized that the Pilot Car was a forerunner to the motorcade and Target Car.

Did the Pilot Car also call in their location and timing of the motorcade while they were stopped there?

If so, their report would have been broacast and this report amplified by the policemen's radios in the facinity, or the radio in the car.

Do the tapes or transcripts of Channel Two indicate that the Pilot Car broadcast their locaton or the location of the motorcade during their

journey?

BK

Edited January 29, 2011 by William Kelly