Steve Duffy Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 Was just wondering, when did DeMohrenschildt first meet the Paines'? Am I correct that it was through Edward Glover...in Jan 63? It seems the first time was when George and his wife were showing the film of their Panama movie, as depicted it "I'm A Patsy" Does anyone have other information....are there allusions to earlier meetings?...or a continuing friendship after the initial meeting? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Root Posted February 16, 2011 Share Posted February 16, 2011 (edited) The "chance" meeting of George DeMohrenschildt and Lee Harvey Oswald is of great interest to my research for several reasons most of which centers on the fact that George's brother, Demitri, is of interest to my research. For starters just before Priscilla Johnson McMillan left Paris to go to Moscow and interview Oswald she visted the offices of Radio Liberty which was operated by Demitri DeMorhrenschildt and Whitney Shepardson (a very close associate of John J. McCloy). in June of 1959 several of Demitri's associates were meeting with Richard Helms in the months prior to Oswald's "defection" to the Soviet Union. These meetings seem to have centered on a future off track intelligence operation that would be centered on Helsinki, Finland where Oswald, in October of 1959, would receive his visa to enter Russia. Most importantly, according to Marina Oswald, it was George DeMohrenschildt that suspected that Oswald had been the person to attempt to assassinate Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker on April 10, 1963 and confronted Oswald about the attempt the following day. Shortly following this incident G. DeMohrenschildt is off to the Caribean. I believe it was the House Select Committee on Assassinations when a staff attorney named Bellin asked the CIA to conduct a forensic psysch evaluation of Oswald to see if he could have committed the assassination of JFK. Their findings concluded that if it had been known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker it could have been predicted that if given the opportunity Oswald would be capable of killing the President. My question is did George pass information about the Walker attempt up the intelligence chain, or even just to his brother? Jim Root Edited February 16, 2011 by Jim Root Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
J. Raymond Carroll Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 My question is did George pass information about the Walker attempt up the intelligence chain, or even just to his brother? My impression is that De Mohrenschildt was joking, but either way it is certainly possible that he mentioned Oz & the Walker shooting during his conversations with Moore, the CIA guy in Dallas whose first name escapes me at the minute. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
William Kelly Posted February 17, 2011 Share Posted February 17, 2011 My question is did George pass information about the Walker attempt up the intelligence chain, or even just to his brother? My impression is that De Mohrenschildt was joking, but either way it is certainly possible that he mentioned Oz & the Walker shooting during his conversations with Moore, the CIA guy in Dallas whose first name escapes me at the minute. J. Walton Moore, former 0SS in China who was sent overseas with one Charles Ford, from Atlantic City and Princeton, whose regular job at CIA was interrupted to serve as liaison between the CIA and RFK during the post-Mongoose era when plots to kill Castro were running hot and heavy. There's a TV report that Bill O'Riley does regarding Moore and DeMohrenschildt that is worth reviewing. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Duffy Posted February 17, 2011 Author Share Posted February 17, 2011 I have the Moore/ DeMohrenschildt meeting....which led to Oswald...but when did George become aware of the Paines'?..In "I'm Patsy" her refers to her as Ruth Payne,...so what was the earliest familiar relationship? Anyone?... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Fokes Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I have the Moore/ DeMohrenschildt meeting....which led to Oswald...but when did George become aware of the Paines'?..In "I'm Patsy" her refers to her as Ruth Payne,...so what was the earliest familiar relationship? Anyone?... I'm afraid I do not have an answer to your question, but ... I wonder if George's brother Dimitri had ever told George of his connection to Ruth Forbes Paine? Bruce Adamson claims Dimitri Von Mohrenschildt had ties to Ruth (Forbes)Paine [Michael Paine's mother]. Even if Dimitri had mentioned his alleged ties to Ruth Forbes Paine, George might not have been familiar with the Paines of Dallas at the time of that telling (so to speak), and consequently never connected Michael Paine with the Ruth Forbes Paine his brother knew! Oh, what a tangled web we weave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Duffy Posted February 22, 2011 Author Share Posted February 22, 2011 Thanks for the reply, Peter...I'm sure George did know...hard to prove, but is the world really that small a place?...Ordinary Family...I have the Adamson books, I'll plunge ahead... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Simpich Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 The "chance" meeting of George DeMohrenschildt and Lee Harvey Oswald is of great interest to my research for several reasons most of which centers on the fact that George's brother, Demitri, is of interest to my research. For starters just before Priscilla Johnson McMillan left Paris to go to Moscow and interview Oswald she visted the offices of Radio Liberty which was operated by Demitri DeMorhrenschildt and Whitney Shepardson (a very close associate of John J. McCloy). in June of 1959 several of Demitri's associates were meeting with Richard Helms in the months prior to Oswald's "defection" to the Soviet Union. These meetings seem to have centered on a future off track intelligence operation that would be centered on Helsinki, Finland where Oswald, in October of 1959, would receive his visa to enter Russia. Most importantly, according to Marina Oswald, it was George DeMohrenschildt that suspected that Oswald had been the person to attempt to assassinate Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker on April 10, 1963 and confronted Oswald about the attempt the following day. Shortly following this incident G. DeMohrenschildt is off to the Caribean. I believe it was the House Select Committee on Assassinations when a staff attorney named Bellin asked the CIA to conduct a forensic psysch evaluation of Oswald to see if he could have committed the assassination of JFK. Their findings concluded that if it had been known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker it could have been predicted that if given the opportunity Oswald would be capable of killing the President. My question is did George pass information about the Walker attempt up the intelligence chain, or even just to his brother? Jim Root I have been doing research on Radio Free Europe/Liberty, and have heard that Dmitri was on their board but never had a good source. Do you have any references that I can use? I've been trying to nail this down for awhile. Thank you. Bill Simpich Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greg Parker Posted February 22, 2011 Share Posted February 22, 2011 I have been doing research on Radio Free Europe/Liberty, and have heard that Dmitri was on their board but never had a good source. Do you have any references that I can use? I've been trying to nail this down for awhile. Thank you. Bill Simpich Bill, Russ Baker mentions this in his book, but there is no cite. A book on Jackie K also mentions it - again though, not cite. His papers are held at the Hoover institute if that is any help at all. FWIW, I have long had a hunch that G and/or D De/Von Mohr were somehow connected to Oswald's trip to the Soviet Union. There are small indicators at least - one example: One of Dimitri;s major influences helped establish resistance groups across Bengal at the height of British Rule on the sub-continent. The origin of the idea for REDSOX/REDCAP? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 (edited) ...Most importantly, according to Marina Oswald, it was George DeMohrenschildt that suspected that Oswald had been the person to attempt to assassinate Maj. Gen. Edwin Anderson Walker on April 10, 1963 and confronted Oswald about the attempt the following day. Shortly following this incident G. DeMohrenschildt is off to the Caribean. I believe it was the House Select Committee on Assassinations when a staff attorney named Bellin asked the CIA to conduct a forensic psysch evaluation of Oswald to see if he could have committed the assassination of JFK. Their findings concluded that if it had been known that Oswald had attempted to assassinate Walker it could have been predicted that if given the opportunity Oswald would be capable of killing the President. My question is did George pass information about the Walker attempt up the intelligence chain, or even just to his brother? Jim Root Jim, according to Dick Russell, George De Mohrenshildt, on Easter Sunday (after the Wednesday 10 April 1963 shooting at Walker, to which Marina says Lee Oswald confessed) visited his friends Mr. and Mrs. Igor Voshinin, who at that point refused to have anything to do with Lee Harvey Oswald because of his rude manners towards the Texas Russian exile community. At that visit (says Russell) De Mohrenschildt told the Voshinins his strong suspicions about Lee Harvey Oswald being General Walker's shooter. Then, Mrs. Voshinin told Dick Russell, "I immediately called the FBI and told them what George told me." This is a breakthrough, if Dick Russell's story is accurate -- it means that the FBI lied when they said that 3 December is the first they heard about this accusation, from Marina herself. There's more to it -- if the FBI really did get this report from Mrs. Voshinin (as Russell claims in his 2003 book, TMWKTM) then I believe it is standard protocol to warn the victim right away to be on the alert for this dangerous shooter. In other words -- the FBI would have been obligated to tell General Walker about this report from Mrs. Voshinin, and therefore General Walker would have had a solid suspicion that Lee Harvey Oswald was his shooter as early as Easter Sunday after the shooting. This, then, would lend some substance to his stories that the DPD arrested Oswald that very night, but then let him go. In other words, some authorities in Dallas knew (or had evidence) that Oswald was his shooter; but they did not pursue that lead, evidently (and in that sense, they let the shooter go free). In that case, General Walker, a war hero from WW2 and the Korean War, and always a man of action, would have sought other sources of satisfaction (perhaps underground, perhaps in New Orleans paramilitary training camps). General Walker had grown accustomed to the limelight. He was used to speaking before large crowds who gave him multiple standing ovations. He was used to being in the national newspapers almost every week in 1962 -- whether for his Texas gubanatorial campaign, or for testifying before a Senate Subcommittee, or for inciting a race riot at Ole Miss, or for protesting confinement in an insane asylum by the political hand of RFK. Walker loved the limelight. However, after the 10 April 1963 shooting -- Walker seems to fall off our radar. Very, very little is heard from him after that point -- although Gerry Patrick Hemming and Harry Dean claim to have seen him traveling around the South, consorting with the Birchers, and the Minutemen, and Cuban Exiles and other conspiratorial types in New Orleans -- like Guy Banister, Carlos Bringuier and so on. Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited August 8, 2012 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted December 20, 2012 Share Posted December 20, 2012 The crucial link between George De Mohrenschildt and Michael Paine, IMHO, is Volkmar Schmidt. The month is January, 1963. Volkmar Schmidt, a German engineer working for Magnolia Oil (later Mobil Oil) in Dallas, came from a family of psychologists. In his youth he had learned a special psychological technique that would transfer somebody's hatred for person (X) onto person (Y). George De Mohrenschildt, Michael Paine and Volkmar Schmidt all agreed on one thing regarding Lee Harvey Oswald, namely, they were sick and tired of hearing Oswald belly-ache about how JFK let down the Cubans at the Bay of Pigs. The biggest news of January, 1963 was that ex-General Edwin Walker was recently acquitted by a Mississippi Grand Jury for his role in the Ole Miss race riots (30 September 1962) in which hundreds were wounded and two were killed. He was simply let go, treated as innocent. Liberal Americans were shocked at this travesty of justice, because Walker was clearly guilty as sin. There were several authoritative eye-witnesses. Yet ultra-Conservative Americans were delighted that a racist could still get away with murder in Mississippi. (In just a few more months, in June, Byron de la Beckwith would shoot Medgar Evers dead in his own driveway, and James Meredith would also be seriously wounded by a rifle in that same month. This was Mississippi in 1963.) Anyway, this was the talk among liberals in Dallas -- liberals like George De Mohrenschildt, Michael Paine and Volkmar Schmidt. So, Volkmar Schmidt had an idea. He would have a party, and invite lots of people including Lee and Marina Oswald. At that party he would demonstrate his psychological technique of transferring Oswald's hatred of JFK to a new hatred -- for ex-General Edwin Walker. The process took more than an hour -- but it was the rage of the party and it was a raving success. Only days later, Lee Harvey Oswald would order weapons through the mail, and begin taking photographs of Walker's home in Dallas. That is, Oswald began dramatizing the psychological suggestions of Volkmar Schmidt, George De Mohrenschildt and Michael Paine. All three men were partly responsible for Oswald's attack on ex-General Edwin Walker on 10 April 1963. They often denied it, but they knew (IMHO) that they bore some of that guilt. When George and Jeanne De Mohrenshildt confirmed this with their own eyes on the Saturday before Easter Sunday, 1963, they should have told the Dallas police. They all should have told the Dallas police. But they suffered a moral failure, motivated by political concerns. To his credit, ex-General Walker always suspected Michael Paine of complicity in that shooting. He was certain there were at least two shooters, and a wider conspiracy. To the end of his life he said so. Walker also named George De Mohrenshildt in his list of haters. Walker was wrong at Ole Miss -- but two wrongs don't make a right. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) Bill: I can't believe you think LHO shot at Walker. Did you read Breach of Trust? DId you read about it in my book? How did Oswald take a shot at Walker with a rifle he never picked up or ordered, and a bullet that changed color and caliber in flight. And which the FBI lied about matching the rifle. And when Walker asked about this and Kirk Coleman, the WC lied upon both. Jim, I think you're directing that question to me. I did read Breach of Trust, and found some good points in it. However, I never said that Oswald used his own rifle. Furthermore, the Warren Commission (and thus the FBI) did not report that the Oswald rifle was the weapon used "to the exclusion of all other weapons," on the contrary. The Warren Commission reported that the evidence was inconclusive. So, the FBI didn't lie about this. Furthermore, even though I believe that Lee Harvey Oswald did participate in a plot to shoot ex-General Edwin Walker, I absolutely reject the specific story that he told to Marina -- a story she faithfully repeated to the Warren Commission. He told her he buried his rifle, and that he escaped on foot and bus, and that he was entirely alone in this shooting. All these points were lies (probably to keep Marina in the dark to protect her from complicity, and to protect his accomplices). The evidence closer to the ground -- as shown by DPD records -- offers substantial evidence that at least two people were involved, and that they drove a car (at least one car). Robert Allen Surrey almost caught two prowlers at Walker's home just a few nights before, but they escaped in a car without license plates. This was an elaborate plot. Marina said (and she never changed this testimony) that Lee Oswald confessed to her that very night that he tried to kill Walker. The shooting occurred at about 9pm, and he returned home close to midnight. Where was Lee during those three hours? The DPD records strongly suggest that Lee lied to Marina about doing this act alone. The ballistics strongly suggest that Lee lied to Marina about using his own rifle. Despite these lies, Lee's confession to Marina makes good sense, and feeds into his obsession with Walker (e.g. pictures of Walker's house) and his comment on the back of his backyard photo to George De Mohrenshildt ("Hunter of facists, ha ha"). Notice also that in that backyard photograph (which I admit was altered in several ways so that there exist multiple poses, although Marina admits to taking only the first photo), Oswald is holding a copy of The Militant in which the lead story was about ex-General Edwin Walker and his acquittal by a Mississippi Grand Jury, and suggesting that Walker was a fascist. So, Jim, it's not a question of Either/Or -- either Marina is 100% correct or 100% wrong -- but there are nuances. Marina honestly reported the half-truths that Lee told to her, and she had no idea of the actual truth. But combining the accounts we have from George De Mohrenshildt (I'm a Patsy, I'm a Patsy) and the Dallas Police Department, along with Volkmar Schmidt's own confession, I believe we have a case against Lee Harvey Oswald and multiple accomplices in the 10 April 1963 shooting at Walker. Best regards, --Paul Trejo <edit typos> Edited December 22, 2012 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 I sense a dissonance in the notion that a silhouette in a window at night at a short distance fairly level with a rifle resting on a support is missed un-intentionally. It makes more sense to me that it was intentional to have evidence of a shot having been fired at Walker. If this is so the following events must be re-evaluated and I think it can be so with a shift in focus that uses the same events but reaches a different understanding of the why of ... um ... everything. There was another significant event that occured in January. Kennedy made a policy declaration regarding the free movement, choice of where to live and what to do for Negroes of the United States. Following his show of force in Oxford he indicates clearly he is not hesitant in following through on his word regarding Civil Rights. The social norms and economy of a swathe of states would change for ever. In this he showed himself to be unstoppable. This made him a target. The only way was to kill him and force an accomodating president to slow and roll back Kennedys agenda. Had Kennedy won in 1964, and there is every reason to think he would do so, his, not LBJ's, bill would have passed and the US would not be the Evil Empire it is today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Trejo Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 (edited) I sense a dissonance in the notion that a silhouette in a window at night at a short distance fairly level with a rifle resting on a support is missed un-intentionally. It makes more sense to me that it was intentional to have evidence of a shot having been fired at Walker. If this is so the following events must be re-evaluated and I think it can be so with a shift in focus that uses the same events but reaches a different understanding of the why of ... um ... everything... John, as I understand your point, you suggest that the shooter intentionally missed killing ex-General Walker -- by inches. That is implausible on two counts: (1) it suggests that the shooter was a perfect shot, like William Tell, who could shoot an apple on the head of his own son. Those are long odds by any measure; and (2) it ignores the fact that the bullet hit the edge of the window sill upon entering Walker's house, and it was just that deflection that caused the bullet to miss its target. So, it was an accidental miss. Otherwise, one would have to imagine a sharpshooter so amazing that he could graze his target by inches by deflecting off a window sill. That is more implausible than Lee Harvey Oswald -- with his "Maggie's drawers" shooting ability, missing his target at night from 120 feet away. By the way, it wasn't a silhouette, since there was no window shade; it was hot outside and the window was open, and the light was on inside. The target was in clear sight. The shot missed because the bullet hit the window sill. The DPD officer on the scene told Walker: "this was too close to be a warning shot -- this person tried to kill you." Finally, I have no doubt that JFK had many enemies, especially among the extreme right-wing. But he also had many supporters among moderates. The shooting at ex-General Edwin Walker on 10 April 1963 was surely related to the politics of racism, and Lee Harvey Oswald was an outspoken opponent of racism. The evidence points to Oswald as the shooter on 10 April 1963 -- however, as in the JFK assassination, Oswald was not alone. Best regards, --Paul Trejo Edited December 21, 2012 by Paul Trejo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Dolva Posted December 21, 2012 Share Posted December 21, 2012 ''That is implausible on two counts: (1) it suggests that the shooter was a perfect shot, like William Tell, who could shoot an apple on the head of his own son. Those are long odds by any measure; and (2) it ignores the fact that the bullet hit the edge of the window sill upon entering Walker's house, and it was just that deflection that caused the bullet to miss its target.'' No. JFK's assassin did 'shoot an apple...'. 2. Where was Walkers head in relation to the sill? What was the LOS from the shooters position? Dissonance. ============ ''By the way, it wasn't a silhouette, since there was no shade, it was hot outside and the window was open, and the light was on inside. The target was in clear sight.'' -hmm ...even better. ? . How is that not supportive of my contention? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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