Greer ducking in Nix

[Peter McGuire]

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

Do we have another blind poster here? Blind and ignorant?

What did you do, read this? From McAdams site:

It's long been touted by conspiracists as evidence of a shot from the Grassy Knoll. Motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis, riding to Kennedy's left and somewhat behind him (see photo at left), was struck by Kennedy's brain matter when Kennedy was hit in the head by the last of the shots fired in Dealey Plaza.

The logic is as follows: if Hargis, riding to Kennedy's left and behind him, was struck by brain matter when the President's head exploded, that must mean that the shot came from in front of Kennedy, and to his right. It sounds plausible, but only if you don't know much about wound ballistics.

This claim goes back to Josiah Thompson's book Six Seconds in Dallas. Thompson's treatment of Hargis includes the following sentence:

This debris [from the President's head] hit Officer Hargis with such force that he told reporters the next day, "I thought at first I might have been hit." (Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 100)

The problem here is that the "force" statement comes from Thompson, not Hargis. No one has ever produced any statement from Hargis saying he was hit with any "force," although he most certainly was "hit." Here is the article Thompson is quoting, from the Sunday News, New York, November 24, 1963, page 21 (courtesy of Steve Barber):

Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) B.W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding in President Kennedy's motorcade, gave this account today of the Assassination:

"We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy."

"When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look."

Splattered With Blood

"The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him."

"As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood."

"Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."

"Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun."

And They Took Off

"Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot."

The best guess about what "something" hit Hargis will be discussed below. But here it's important to note that the "such force" statement has been repeated by a generation of conspiracy books as though it were Hargis' statement.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Peter McGuire

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

Do we have another blind poster here? Blind and ignorant?

What did you do, read this? From McAdams site:

It's long been touted by conspiracists as evidence of a shot from the Grassy Knoll. Motorcycle cop Bobby Hargis, riding to Kennedy's left and somewhat behind him (see photo at left), was struck by Kennedy's brain matter when Kennedy was hit in the head by the last of the shots fired in Dealey Plaza.

The logic is as follows: if Hargis, riding to Kennedy's left and behind him, was struck by brain matter when the President's head exploded, that must mean that the shot came from in front of Kennedy, and to his right. It sounds plausible, but only if you don't know much about wound ballistics.

This claim goes back to Josiah Thompson's book Six Seconds in Dallas. Thompson's treatment of Hargis includes the following sentence:

This debris [from the President's head] hit Officer Hargis with such force that he told reporters the next day, "I thought at first I might have been hit." (Six Seconds in Dallas, p. 100)

The problem here is that the "force" statement comes from Thompson, not Hargis. No one has ever produced any statement from Hargis saying he was hit with any "force," although he most certainly was "hit." Here is the article Thompson is quoting, from the Sunday News, New York, November 24, 1963, page 21 (courtesy of Steve Barber):

Motorcade Cop Tells How It Happened

Dallas, Nov. 23 (Special) B.W. Hargis, 31, Dallas motorcycle patrolman who was riding in President Kennedy's motorcade, gave this account today of the Assassination:

"We turned left onto Elm St. off Houston, about a half block from where it happened. I was right alongside the rear fender on the left side of the President's car, near Mrs. Kennedy."

"When I heard the first explosion, I knew it was a shot. I thought that Gov. Connally had been hit when I saw him turn toward the President with a real surprised look."

Splattered With Blood

"The President then looked like he was bent over or that he was leaning toward the Governor, talking to him."

"As the President straightened back up, Mrs. Kennedy turned toward him, and that was when he got hit in the side of his head, spinning it around. I was splattered with blood."

"Then I felt something hit me. It could have been concrete or something, but I thought at first I might have been hit."

"Then I saw the limousine stop, and I parked my motorcycle at the side of the road, got off and drew my gun."

And They Took Off

"Then this Secret Service agent (in the President's car) got his wits about him and they took off. The motorcycle officer on the right side of the car was Jim Chaney. He immediately went forward and announced to the chief that the President had been shot."

The best guess about what "something" hit Hargis will be discussed below. But here it's important to note that the "such force" statement has been repeated by a generation of conspiracy books as though it were Hargis' statement.

Since nowehere did I even mention Hargis, let alone say that he wasn't spattered by blood, let me ask YOU the same question - Do we have another blind poster here? Blind and ignorant?

And does that blind and ignorant poster DENY that matter was blown forward from JFK into the front fo the car and onto the occupants?

Edited April 27, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Peter McGuire]

Give me your proof.

As we know, Kennedy was shot from the front, as well as from behind, but your post implied all matter was forward.

Actually, it more than "implied."

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

So what part of A L L don't you understand?

Edited April 27, 2011 by Peter McGuire

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Give me your proof.

As we know, Kennedy was shot from the front, as well as from behind, but your post implied all matter was forward.

Actually, it more than "implied."

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

So what part of A L L don't you understand?

Wow.

Talk ablout taking what I wrote out of context.

My entire post was as follows:

QUOTE ON

"Because if Greer is ducking, then everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking...in unison"

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

QUOTE OFF

The "yes" in my reply relates to "everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking", ducking to "debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward...".

Put anoter way, yes, everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

As for giving you proof that matter was "blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies", maybe you could do some research and come up with this fact.

Edited April 27, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Robin Unger]

Give me your proof.

As we know, Kennedy was shot from the front, as well as from behind, but your post implied all matter was forward.

Actually, it more than "implied."

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

So what part of A L L don't you understand?

Wow.

Talk ablout taking what I wrote out of context.

My entire post was as follows:

QUOTE ON

"Because if Greer is ducking, then everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking...in unison"

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

QUOTE OFF

The "yes" in my reply relates to "everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking", ducking to "debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward...".

Put anoter way, yes, everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

As for giving you proof that matter was "blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies", maybe you could do some research and come up with this fact.

I am assuming that the blood spots seen on the windshield wasn't the result of BACKSPRAY !

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Give me your proof.

As we know, Kennedy was shot from the front, as well as from behind, but your post implied all matter was forward.

Actually, it more than "implied."

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

So what part of A L L don't you understand?

Wow.

Talk ablout taking what I wrote out of context.

My entire post was as follows:

QUOTE ON

"Because if Greer is ducking, then everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking...in unison"

Yes, to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

QUOTE OFF

The "yes" in my reply relates to "everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking", ducking to "debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward...".

Put anoter way, yes, everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking to the debris (blood, brain, skull, bullet fragments) all blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies.

As for giving you proof that matter was "blown forward of JFK and Jackie and into the car and onto their bodies", maybe you could do some research and come up with this fact.

I am assuming that the blood spots seen on the windshield wasn't the result of BACKSPRAY !

I think that's a reasonable deduction.

[Don Jeffries]

Jackie was climbing out onto the back of the limousine in search of a fragment blown out of the back of JFK's skull. There is also the Harper fragment to consider. Even if one accepts the lame contention that Hargis was "driving through" the debris, there is solid evidence of debris blown backwards.

[Robin Unger]

Perhaps I'm seeing it differently...but in the clip Robin shows of frames Z321-Z324, it appears that ALL of the occupants of the presidential limo, except perhaps Jackie, are moving FORWARD...IN UNISON...as if the car was DECELERATING RAPIDLY.

Rapid deceleration would explain witness accounts of the limo braking or stopping...and if it was only going 11-12 MPH to begin with, braking would be the ONLY logical explanation for rapid deceleration, as the weight of the vehicle would impart a certain inertia that could only be resisted to the degree shown in the Z-film by the driver applying the brakes.

Now, IMHO, THAT'S what I'm seeing, as opposed to any conscious "ducking". Because if Greer is ducking, then everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking...in unison. Due to individuals having varying reaction times, I just don't see it as a spontaneous reaction by an entire group.

Mark

I tend to agree with you that in Zapruder we see what must be an abrupt deceleration of the limo, causing the occupants to lurch forward.

Why jackie is not affected to the same extent as the other occupants is not clear. ?

In the NIX GIF below do we see the limo decelerate, as jackies white glove is seen moving up and then down.

It appears to me that the follow up car , and two or three of the four motorcycles appear to come to a abrupt stop just as the Limo takes off.

Stabilized Muchmore GIF showing the head shot.

Click on the image to view full size:

Edited April 28, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Jackie was climbing out onto the back of the limousine in search of a fragment blown out of the back of JFK's skull. There is also the Harper fragment to consider. Even if one accepts the lame contention that Hargis was "driving through" the debris, there is solid evidence of debris blown backwards.

What about the Harper fragment? The original description of where it was found, "25 feet south of the spot where President KENNEDY was shot" is in front of the location of the limo at the time of the head shot. And in 1997, Milicent Cranor located Harper and he marked on a map where he found the fragment, again ahead of the limo at the time of the headshot.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[William Kelly]

Jackie was climbing out onto the back of the limousine in search of a fragment blown out of the back of JFK's skull. There is also the Harper fragment to consider. Even if one accepts the lame contention that Hargis was "driving through" the debris, there is solid evidence of debris blown backwards.

What about the Harper fragment? The original description of where it was found, "25 feet south of the spot where President KENNEDY was shot" is infront of the location of the limo at the time of the head shot. And in 1997, Milicent Cranor located Harper and he marked on a map where he found the fragment, again ahead of the limo at the time of the headshot.

But the Harper fragment is from the BACK of the head, and not a small entrance but an example of an exit blowout, right?

[Todd W. Vaughan]

Jackie was climbing out onto the back of the limousine in search of a fragment blown out of the back of JFK's skull. There is also the Harper fragment to consider. Even if one accepts the lame contention that Hargis was "driving through" the debris, there is solid evidence of debris blown backwards.

What about the Harper fragment? The original description of where it was found, "25 feet south of the spot where President KENNEDY was shot" is infront of the location of the limo at the time of the head shot. And in 1997, Milicent Cranor located Harper and he marked on a map where he found the fragment, again ahead of the limo at the time of the headshot.

But the Harper fragment is from the BACK of the head, and not a small entrance but an example of an exit blowout, right?

Certainly the Harper fragment is presumably from an exit defect on JFK's skull.

Are you aware that a forensic anthropologist, Dr. Angel, a consultant for the HSCA, identified the Harper fragment as being right side parietal?

[Mark Knight]

Perhaps I'm seeing it differently...but in the clip Robin shows of frames Z321-Z324, it appears that ALL of the occupants of the presidential limo, except perhaps Jackie, are moving FORWARD...IN UNISON...as if the car was DECELERATING RAPIDLY.

Rapid deceleration would explain witness accounts of the limo braking or stopping...and if it was only going 11-12 MPH to begin with, braking would be the ONLY logical explanation for rapid deceleration, as the weight of the vehicle would impart a certain inertia that could only be resisted to the degree shown in the Z-film by the driver applying the brakes.

Now, IMHO, THAT'S what I'm seeing, as opposed to any conscious "ducking". Because if Greer is ducking, then everyone else other than Jackie is ALSO ducking...in unison. Due to individuals having varying reaction times, I just don't see it as a spontaneous reaction by an entire group.

Mark

I tend to agree with you that in Zapruder we see what must be an abrupt deceleration of the limo, causing the occupants to lurch forward.

Why jackie is not affected to the same extent as the other occupants is not clear. ?

In the NIX GIF below do we see the limo decelerate, as jackies white glove is seen moving up and then down.

It appears to me that the follow up car , and two or three of the four motorcycles appear to come to a abrupt stop just as the Limo takes off.

Stabilized Muchmore GIF showing the head shot.

Click on the image to view full size:

Thank you, Robin.

While I'm not a "researcher" with "credentials" such as Fetzer or Lifton, some things need to be pointed out, even if they're only noticed by folks like me with "average" powers of observation.

In Nix, the confirmation that the limo at least slowed dramatically is the rate at which the motorcycle escorts advance on the limo, prior to coming to a complete stop themselves...apparently to keep from passing the rear of the limo. And apparently, this is the point at which the limo then begins its rapid acceleration.

In Zapruder, there is no indication, based upon the passing background, to determine that ANY slowing of the limo occurred. In fact, from what I've seen in the Z-film, I don't see the motorcycles coming alongside the trunk of the limo as I do in Nix. Is this a result of the angle at which Zapruder was shooting the film, compared to Nix's angle...or is this perhaps [and I ONLY say "perhaps," since I don't know the answer for certain] a result of "editing" of the Z-film in an attempt to "eliminate" the slowing/near-stop/stop of the limo? I don't know the answer. The forward movement of the limo occupants, IN UNISON, indicates rapid deceleartion which is not discernable otherwise in Zapruder, IMHO. Whether that's evidence of a coverup, or simply a product of Zappy's POV of the assassination,I'm not prepared to speculate at this point.

But I do believe that, if Greer was ducking, so was everyone else. And if JFK's forward movement is ONLY a product of taking a bullet from behind, what bullet simultaneously hit Nellie Connally, Greer, and Kellerman? Limo deceleration is the only LOGICAL explanation for this forward motion, IN UNISON...IMHO.

As I say, I don't have the credentials of a Lifton or a Fetzer. But by examining Nix and Zapruder together, that's the only logical conclusion at which I can arrive, based upon my limited education and lack of credentials.

Thanks again, Robin. You have shown me something that I hadn't seen prior to this week.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Mark Knight

[Robin Unger]

Thanks Mark.

Nix Lightened GIF 16.5MB ( Approx 90 -frames )

I have taken Lee's NIX frames lightened them, adjusted the contrast & saturation

( Looking into the Nix shadows )

This may take a while to load ( click on the image to view full size ).

Original frame scource ( Lee Forman CD )

Edited April 30, 2011 by Robin Unger

[Jack White]

All studies of films ASSUME that they are genuine.

First establish that a film is genuine before using it as evidence. If the films are fabrications,

then study of the fabrications is more important than what the extant films show.

Jack

[David Josephs]

Excellent as usual Robin... thanks

Is this where the film begins... there is a splice just before this correct? We do not see the 2-4 seconds just before this starts on the 1st part...

I think the point Hargis makes about the limo stopping is pretty significant as well as the extreme slowing of the two motorcycles to the RIGHT rear of the limo... by all indication it looks like they are stopping... and immediately looking to their right as well

you can also see the agent told not to move off the running board on the right of the SS car... he doesn't begin to move until AFTER the headshot...

I will get into analyzing this version a bit... much appreciated Robin... I believe there is quite a lot to learn here

Regards

DJ

edit: is there ANY FILM in which we see Hill jumping off the limo... any photos?

I can't seem to remember any - suggests to me the limo stop occurs at that point and somehow the follow-up car is moved much closer to the limo... problem with that is Altgens at z255 shows the ss car right there.. I thought it was said that Hill ran 85 feet in total to get to the limo...

Edited April 30, 2011 by David Josephs