Couch film shows Baker running toward TSBD

[Gil Jesus]

The Malcolm Couch film, taken just seconds after the last shot, shows Dallas motorcycle officer Marrion Baker running toward the Texas School Book Depository. I've slowed the film down to show Baker dismounting his motorcycle just east of the light signal where he testified he parked it. He then runs toward the entrance of the building.

The significance of this film is in the timing of the event, showing that Baker arrived at the building 5-10 seconds BEFORE the Warren Commission said he did and thus he arrived at the lunchroom and encountered Oswald MUCH TOO EARLY than was possible for a gunman from the 6th floor to have been there.

Because Oswald was in the lunchroom BEFORE BAKER GOT THERE, he could NOT have been the gunman on the 6th floor.

[Robin Unger]

[Robin Unger]

[Jim Phelps]

Excellent---good observations.

The evidence just keeps on showing what really happened.

[Gil Jesus]

Excellent---good observations.

The evidence just keeps on showing what really happened.

And what evidence might that be?

Gil's video proves absolutely nothing from the point that Baker goes out of view from Couch's camera.

No one really knows the exact time scale of events after that, and no one ever will. It's all just speculative guesswork based on speculative experiments and what if's.

In Robin Unger's photos, Baker is seen running toward the entrance of the TSBD. Are you suggesting that he dismounted his motorcycle, ran toward the TSBD and never entered it ?

Because the testimony says otherwise.

Mr. BELIN. And then you saw Officer Baker race his motorcycle over and come in front of the building, and then you ran in with him, is that correct?

Mr. TRULY. That is correct.

(3 H 228 )

Wasn't the whole timeframe of Baker's movements recreated by the Commission on March 20, 1964 ?

" He raced his motorcycle to the building, dismounted, scanned the area to the west and pushed his way through the spectators toward the entrance. There he encountered Roy Truly, the building superintendent, who offered Baker his help. They entered the building, and ran toward the two elevators in the rear. Finding that both elevators were on an upper floor, they dashed up the stairs.

Not more than 2 minutes had elapsed since the shooting."

(REPORT, Chap. 1, pg. 5 )

Sounds to me like they had the timeframe of events pretty much figured out.

[Greg Parker]

Excellent---good observations.

The evidence just keeps on showing what really happened.

And what evidence might that be?

Gil's video proves absolutely nothing from the point that Baker goes out of view from Couch's camera.

No one really knows the exact time scale of events after that, and no one ever will. It's all just speculative guesswork based on speculative experiments and what if's.

What's not speculative guesswork, Duncan, is that police and Truly and Campbell were all quoted in the earliest reports as placing Oswald on the first floor.

[Gil Jesus]

What's not speculative guesswork, Duncan, is that police and Truly and Campbell were all quoted in the earliest reports as placing Oswald on the first floor.

Oswald told police that he was on the first floor and went up to the lunchroom to get a Coke when he encountered Baker. Commission Exhibit 1118 is the floor plan of the second floor of the TSBD.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0058a.htm

The Commission said that Baker " intended to continue around to his left toward the stairway going up but through the window in the door he caught a fleeting glimpse of a man walking in the vestibule toward the lunchroom.."

( Report chap. 4, pg. 151 )

But the only way Baker's line of sight would have allowed him to catch "a glimpse" of anyone "walking in the vestibule" was if that someone had entered the vestibule from the south, using the stairwell in the front of the building and going through either the office space or the corridor to the left of it.

http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh22/html/WH_Vol22_0058a.htm

This would jive with what Greg said and Oswald told police during his interrogation, that he was on the first floor having his lunch ( 4 H 231 ). Oswald ascending the front stairs from the first floor through the office space into the vestibule, where Baker gets his "glimpse" of him. It only stands to reason that Oswald would use the same pathway leaving the area as the one he used to arrive there--- through the office area and down the stairs to the first floor.

Mr. BELIN. From your best judgment, if Lee Harvey Oswald didn't go into the conference room and didn't go back to the door marked around between 27 and 28, how would he have gotten out of the office?

Mrs. REID. Right straight out this door down this stairway and out the front door.

( 3 H 278 )

[J. Raymond Carroll]

No one really knows the exact time scale of events after that,

According to Charles Sanders Peirce, the greatest logician since Aristotle, and renowned for the precision of his measurements in the science of geodesy, no one knows anything with total precision. Even in a right angled-triangle the measurements, though very very close, are still only approximate.

and no one ever will.

According to Peirce, those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to BLOCK THE WAY OF INQUIRY.

It's all just speculative guesswork based on speculative experiments and what if's.

That was precisely what was wrong with the Warren Report on this issue.

You can hang a man based on pure speculation as the Warren Commission did, but nice people prefer to rely on EVIDENCE

[Karl Kinaski]

No one really knows the exact time scale of events after that,

According to Charles Sanders Peirce, the greatest logician since Aristotle, and renowned for the precision of his measurements in the science of geodesy, no one knows anything with total precision. Even in a right angled-triangle the measurements, though very very close, are still only approximate.

and no one ever will.

According to Peirce, those who say we will never know the truth are those who seek to BLOCK THE WAY OF INQUIRY.

Thats right: you can call them nihilists.

PS But Duncan is a special Nihilist - he knows nothing for sure, except that Ossi did it. LOL

KK

Edited May 11, 2011 by Karl Kinaski

[Karl Kinaski]

PS But Duncan is a special Nihilist - he knows nothing for sure, except that Ossi did it. LOL

KK

Yor comment doesn't make sense, but that's not unusual coming from you.

Here's a simple question for you, as you are an expert and know everything.

Who did it?

Who? I recommend this brilliant article. It seems written for you.

"Gerrys word was always good"

Herbert Walker Bush. :tomatoes

[Todd W. Vaughan]

The Malcolm Couch film, taken just seconds after the last shot, shows Dallas motorcycle officer Marrion Baker running toward the Texas School Book Depository. I've slowed the film down to show Baker dismounting his motorcycle just east of the light signal where he testified he parked it. He then runs toward the entrance of the building.

The significance of this film is in the timing of the event, showing that Baker arrived at the building 5-10 seconds BEFORE the Warren Commission said he did and thus he arrived at the lunchroom and encountered Oswald MUCH TOO EARLY than was possible for a gunman from the 6th floor to have been there.

Because Oswald was in the lunchroom BEFORE BAKER GOT THERE, he could NOT have been the gunman on the 6th floor.

Gil,

You wrote...

"The significance of this film is in the timing of the event, showing that Baker arrived at the building 5-10 seconds BEFORE the Warren Commission said he did."

I'm curious, what time did the Warren Commission say Baker arrived at the building?

Todd

Edited May 12, 2011 by Todd W. Vaughan

[Gil Jesus]

The Malcolm Couch film, taken just seconds after the last shot, shows Dallas motorcycle officer Marrion Baker running toward the Texas School Book Depository. I've slowed the film down to show Baker dismounting his motorcycle just east of the light signal where he testified he parked it. He then runs toward the entrance of the building.

The significance of this film is in the timing of the event, showing that Baker arrived at the building 5-10 seconds BEFORE the Warren Commission said he did and thus he arrived at the lunchroom and encountered Oswald MUCH TOO EARLY than was possible for a gunman from the 6th floor to have been there.

Because Oswald was in the lunchroom BEFORE BAKER GOT THERE, he could NOT have been the gunman on the 6th floor.

Gil,

You wrote...

"The significance of this film is in the timing of the event, showing that Baker arrived at the building 5-10 seconds BEFORE the Warren Commission said he did."

I'm curious, what time did the Warren Commission say Baker arrived at the building?

Todd

"Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated FIRST shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds." ( report Chap. 4, pg. 152 )

Baker testified that he didn't rev the motorcycle up until after the last two shots.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. ( 3 H 247 )

The Commission timed Baker from the FIRST shot when he didn't react until after the THIRD shot.

So the Commission's timing is in error.

[Gil Jesus]

"Baker's movements were timed with a stopwatch. On the first test, the elapsed time between the simulated FIRST shot and Baker's arrival on the second-floor stair landing was 1 minute and 30 seconds. The second test run required 1 minute and 15 seconds." ( report Chap. 4, pg. 152 )

Baker testified that he didn't rev the motorcycle up until after the last two shots.

Mr. BAKER. Yes, sir; I heard--now before I revved up this motorcycle, I heard the, you know, the two extra shots, the three shots. ( 3 H 247 )

The Commission timed Baker from the FIRST shot when he didn't react until after the THIRD shot.

So the Commission's timing is in error.

Since it was late last night to give a detailed response, I'll go through it this morning:

The execution of the reconstruction was in disregard of the known actions of the participants, stretching the time consumed for Baker to reach the second floor and shrinking the time of descent of a sixth floor gunman.

As already mentioned, the reconstruction timing began after the FIRST shot ( 3 H 252 ) while Baker testified that he didn't respond until after the LAST shot ( 3 H 247 ).

That means that for the timing of the reconstruction to be valid, it had to start at the last shot.

The Commission claimed in its Report that the span of shots was anywhere from 4.8 to 7 seconds. ( Chap. 3, pg. 117 )

Baker was flanking the last camera car, whose occupants included Malcolm Couch ( 6 H 156 ), Bob Jackson ( 2 H 158 ), Dillard ( 6H 163-164 ) and Underwood ( 6 H 169 ). The men in the car recalled being in proximity to the intersection of Houston and Elm at the time of the last shot. ( 6 H 169, 6 H 158, 2 H 159 )

Had the reconstruction properly started after the last shot, Baker would have reached the TSBD in 8-10 seconds, rather than the 15 seconds ( 7 H 159 ) the Commission claimed it took.

Roy Truly told the Secret Service that Baker made his way to the front entrance "almost immediately". ( CD 87 ) And almost a year later, Truly told CBS News that Baker's arrival "was just a matter of seconds after the last shot."

The occupants of the last camera car ( Camera Car 3 ) related how their car came to a stop or hesitated in the middle of the turn onto Elm St to let some photographers out. ( 2 H 162, 6 H 165, 169 ) Couch's film begins slightly BEFORE the stop, just as the car was making the turn ( 6 H 158 ).

From the testimony of those in the car and the scenes depicted in the film, it can be determined that Couch began filming NO MORE THAN 10 SECONDS AFTER THE LAST SHOT.

Camera Car 3 occupant Jackson told the Commission that after the last shot, as his car hesitated through the turn onto Elm, he saw a motorcycle policeman run up the Depository steps toward the front door. ( 2 H 164 )

Since the Commission's reconstruction of Baker's movements took 1:30 and 1:15 in two tests, and since it said that Baker took 15 seconds to REACH the TSBD, his movements AFTER he arrived there actually took anywhere from 1 minute to 1:15.

But since the evidence shows that Baker reached the TSBD main entrance within 10 seconds, the reconstruction time is off by at least 5 seconds.

Further reductions are in order.

The two reconstruction times reflect times taken when Baker "walked" or "kind of run". ( 3 H 253 ) As we can see from the Couch film, Baker did neither---he ran. And the witnesses said he ran. Baker admitted he ran ( 3 H 248-249 ). Truly gave a good description of this mad dash of Baker's. ( 3 H 221 )

So why did the Commission time Baker "walking" and "trotting" through his actions ?

Like I said, to stretch his response time.

The Commission claimed that Baker's time would have been LONGER because it didn't account for " jostling with the crowd of people on the steps". ( Report, 152-153 )

The Couch film eliminates the possibility that that slowed Baker down.

Eddie Piper saw Baker and Truly RUN into the building, not walking or trotting, yell up for an elevator and then climb the stairs. ( 6 H 385 )

Truly and Baker reached the second floor in under 85 seconds and the Couch film introduces the possibility that it may have been as little as 70 seconds since Baker parked his motorcycle within 10 seconds of the last shot.

The second part of the resconstruction, that of the actions of the sixth floor gunman, took 1:18 and 1:14 according to the Commission. ( 3 H 254 )

This reconstruction also suffered from serious omissions.

After the last shot, a minimum of 2.3 seconds must be added to the reconstructed time because the gunman operated the bolt of the rifle, ejecting the last fired shell and chambering a fourth cartridge.

In addition, witnesses claimed that the gunman had been in no hurry to leave the window. ( 2 H 159, 3 H 144 )

The "sniper's nest" was constructed in such a way as to inhibit movement in and out of it. Deputy Sheriff Luke Mooney had to squeeze "between these two stacks of boxes, I had to turn myself sideways to get in there" ( 3 H 285 ).

To simulate the hiding of the rifle, the SS man ( Howlett ) "leaned over as if he were putting a rifle there" ( 3 H 253 ). But Deputy Constable Seymour Weitzman reported that the rifle was "covered with boxes. It was well protected as far as the naked eye". ( 7 H 107 ) Deputy Sheriff Roger Craig said that the the ends of the rows between which the rifle had been pushed were closed off by boxes, so that one could not see through them. ( 6 H 269 )

Photographs of the area where the rifle was found support these two men's claims.

CE 719 shows that the rifle was found amid a cluster of boxes that did not permit easy access and CE 517 shows that the rifle was upright between two rows of boxes that had partially overlapped on top, thus eliminating the possibility that the rifle had been merely dropped down between the stacks.

Concealment of the rifle required much maneuvering. In addition to squeezing between boxes to exit the sniper's nest, the gunman had to move cartons filled with books. The rifle itself had been very carefully placed in its position. The gunman had not left the window in any hurry. He had chambered one last round.

To the goverment's minimum time of 1:14 for the gunman to reach the second floor, add 6 or 7 seconds for the rechambering, slow withdrawal and squeezing out of the sniper's nest. Next add another 15 or 20 seconds for the gunman to get to the area where the rifle was placed, place it there and cover it with boxes of books on top and on the ends so that it was not easily found.

That's anywhere from 1:35 to 1: 41 total time for a sixth floor gunman to have reached the second floor.

Had Oswald been the assassin, he would have reached the second floor AT LEAST 5 to 11 seconds AFTER Baker, and that's if Baker's response had him WALKING ( 1:30 ), which we know he didn't.

Since Oswald was in the lunchroom BEFORE Baker, we know he couldn't possibly have descended from the sixth floor.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Gil Jesus