Why didn't JFK fire McGeorge Bundy post-BOP?

[Scott Kaiser]

This is how I understand it from everyone I have talked to in Miami, Eisenhower's plan for the BOP's was his responsibility, Nixon backed the plan. When it came time to launch the plan of attack the Cubans were told by Nixon and Bush that they would have the support of the American military to oust Castro from power. Nixon had always referred to Kennedy’s assassination using the code ‘Bay of Pigs’ because that was part of Nixon’s downfall. In the meantime, Richard Nixon, who was running for the Presidency against John Kennedy became involved and convinced the CIA that if they could pull off the whole thing before the early November elections, he would win by a landslide. The CIA couldn't’t pull it off, Nixon lost the election and the top three had to brief Kennedy on the invasion plans.

Kennedy was in office and was briefed on the BOP's for (3) months, and on the fourth month the plan of attack became a reality, the Cubans would not back down from moving forward by pressuring Kennedy into what they thought would be a victory over Castro having the American military backing (promised by Eisenhower's administration which included Nixon and Bush). However, it was the (presidents) decision when Kennedy came into office to either mover forward with the original plan of attack or (abort). Kennedy elected to move on "BUT" without the aid of the American military fearing that it would drag in the USSR into a WWIII.

So, what was suppose to be an American coup in Cuba under the original administration of Eisenhower turned out to be a failure, fiasco and a total embarrassment to the United States showing weakness to "The World". As well as the Cubans under Kennedy. JFK knew that Castro only had four or five planes left after the first air strike of planes that were sent into Cuba and was (told that), The CIA and those in the BOP's awaited orders from Kennedy to finish this and destroy the remaining planes, but Kennedy called off the second air strike fearing the retaliation from USSR. Castro ordered his men to sleep under the wings of the planes and retaliate the following day. The first person that received word by radio that Kennedy would call off the second air strike into Cuba was "Osvaldo Coello" who was the CIA's main radio operator on the ship "Barbara". My father, makes mention of him being in "Dallas" the day Kennedy was killed. Kennedy believed that Castro would kill ALL of the men and that would be that, but Kennedy underestimated Castro when Castro decided to imprison them, then negotiated for there release paying Castro over 50,000,000. that's fifty million dollars.

It would then be two years in the making and planing of Kennedy's assassination, he was first and originally to be assassinated in Miami, but then those involved would have been easily identified and everyone would have known that immigrated Cubans of Operation 40 would be behind it, the second place that Kennedy was to be assassinated was in New York, the third place was Chicago and then finally ended with Dallas.

IMO, and the information I've received from those I talked to in Miami, it was a CIA coup to take out Kennedy. BTW, the CIA is sworn to secrecy, they have to sign a confidentiality statement, many were involved in the ousting of Kennedy, it was a large scale operation with such precision and secrecy that could only come of the CIA.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Scott Kaiser

[Greg Burnham]

Scott,

First off, Eisenhower's approval of "operations" (note the plural) against Castro was in no way related to what eventually became Operation Zapata, aka: The Bay of Pigs Fiasco. Eisenhower never authorized anything that even remotely resembled Operation Zapata. Eisenhower was an experienced combat General who was Commander of the allied forces that invaded Normandy in WWII by water, an amphibious assault. He oversaw the largest amphibious assault ever launched in history to this day, successfully. He knew what it took for victory in such an effort. Operation Zapata wasn't even close to an Eisenhower plan. However, that perception may have contributed to JFK going along with the CIA on it. It was presented to him as The Eisenhower Plan--and who would know better than Ike about amphibious assaults? No one. But, Operation Zapata changed Eisenhower's "harassment" strategy's scope immediately following the election during the lame duck period. Ike was on his way out and JFK was not yet in. "When the cat's away...the treasonous mice will play." And play they did. What once consisted of a few hundred anti Castro Cubans morphed into a Brigade of over 3,000. What had been a "softening of the turf" approach became a full blown INVASION practically over night.

I would like to see documentation supporting what you indicated above, namely: "...the Cubans would not back down from moving forward by pressuring Kennedy into what they thought would be a victory over Castro having the American military backing (promised by Eisenhower's administration which included Nixon and Bush)." I don't believe you will be able to substantiate the claim that Eisenhower promised military support, in violation of International Law, for an invasion plan that did not yet exist.

Again, this is revisionist history, albeit of a nature I have yet to encounter. When you claimed that [paraphrased]: JFK chose to go forward with the [Eisenhower] plan MINUS US military support, you lost me. JFK was not so stupid as to second guess Eisenhower on a military operation, particularly an amphibious assault! And Eisenhower was no idiot either! He never would have approved an operation that violated International Law. That was his legacy. He had been the Supreme Commander of Allied Forces during WWII, but he kept us OUT OF WAR when he was president--for 8 years during the Cold War--no small feat.

You've really kinda botched another part, too. You said:

Scott Kaiser said: "JFK knew that Castro only had four or five planes left after the first strike of planes that were sent into Cuba and was (told that), The CIA and those in the BOP's awaited orders from Kennedy to finish this and destroy the remaining planes, but Kennedy called off the second air strike fearing the retaliation from USSR."

Wrong! JFK had ordered a PRE-dawn airstrike from Puerta Cabezas, Nicaragua using retired B-26 bombers that were modified by Colonel Prouty and flown by anti-Castro Cuban pilots. Each plane was basically stripped and then fitted with eight 50 caliber machine guns in their noses. Those planes were NOT cancelled by JFK! In fact, his last standing order was that Castro's remaining T-33 jets must be destroyed by those B-26's while the T-33's are still on the ground or the mission was to be scrubbed!

The fictitious "airstrike" was not cancelled--IT DID NOT EXIST. It was a last ditch effort to compromise the presidency and it didn't work.

You don't appear to have read very much in this thread before posting. The topic is questioning why JFK failed to fire McGeorge Bundy after the Bay of Pigs because Bundy is the one who cancelled the PRE-dawn (not the fictitious last ditch effort) airstrikes. He fired those at CIA for their complicity, but not McGeorge Bundy.

[William Kelly]

This is how I understand it from everyone I have talked to in Miami, Eisenhower's plan for the BOP's was his responsibility, Nixon backed the plan. When it came time to launch the plan of attack the Cubans were told by Nixon and Bush that they would have the support of the American military to oust Castro from power. Nixon had always referred to Kennedy's assassination using the code 'Bay of Pigs' because that was part of Nixon's downfall. In the meantime, Richard Nixon, who was running for the Presidency against John Kennedy became involved and convinced the CIA that if they could pull off the whole thing before the early November elections, he would win by a landslide. The CIA couldn't't pull it off, Nixon lost the election and the top three had to brief Kennedy on the invasion plans.

Kennedy was in office and was briefed on the BOP's for (3) months, and on the fourth month the plan of attack became a reality, the Cubans would not back down from moving forward by pressuring Kennedy into what they thought would be a victory over Castro having the American military backing (promised by Eisenhower's administration which included Nixon and Bush). However, it was the (presidents) decision when Kennedy came into office to either mover forward with the original plan of attack or (abort). Kennedy elected to move on "BUT" without the aid of the American military fearing that it would drag in the USSR into a WWIII.

So, what was suppose to be an American coup in Cuba under the original administration of Eisenhower turned out to be a failure, fiasco and a total embarrassment to the United States showing weakness to "The World". As well as the Cubans under Kennedy. JFK knew that Castro only had four or five planes left after the first air strike of planes that were sent into Cuba and was (told that), The CIA and those in the BOP's awaited orders from Kennedy to finish this and destroy the remaining planes, but Kennedy called off the second air strike fearing the retaliation from USSR. Castro ordered his men to sleep under the wings of the planes and retaliate the following day. The first person that received word by radio that Kennedy would call off the second air strike into Cuba was "Osvaldo Coello" who was the CIA's main radio operator on the ship "Barbara". My father, makes mention of him being in "Dallas" the day Kennedy was killed. Kennedy believed that Castro would kill ALL of the men and that would be that, but Kennedy underestimated Castro when Castro decided to imprison them, then negotiated for there release paying Castro over 50,000,000. that's fifty million dollars.

It would then be two years in the making and planing of Kennedy's assassination, he was first and originally to be assassinated in Miami, but then those involved would have been easily identified and everyone would have known that immigrated Cubans of Operation 40 would be behind it, the second place that Kennedy was to be assassinated was in New York, the third place was Chicago and then finally ended with Dallas.

IMO, and the information I've received from those I talked to in Miami, it was a CIA coup to take out Kennedy. BTW, the CIA is sworn to secrecy, they have to sign a confidentiality statement, many were involved in the ousting of Kennedy, it was a large scale operation with such precision and secrecy that could only come of the CIA.

Scott, you can't talk about the plans and order given over calling off air strikes and direct US military involvement without mentioning the military - the DOD - and specifically Gen. Charles Cabell, as I believe he was the man at the switch and calling the shots until he called JFK and asked him about the second air strike. I don't know the details, but I do know that it wasn't just JFK or the CIA who screwed up at the Bay of Pigs - and others were involved. After the Bay of PIgs all such large paramilitary CIA operations were handed over to the DOD.

And it was Cabell who was fired, not Bundy.

BK

[Scott Kaiser]

Here we go again! Okay Greg, the proof is in the pudding but You'll have to wait before I can release it, secondly you say, "What once consisted of a few hundred anti Castro Cubans morphed into a Brigade of over 3,000. Wrong! There were over 4,000 so you were a 1,000 short, until there were only 30 left and it was Nixon that kicked them out.

Here we go again. You say, "I would like to see documentation supporting what you indicated above, namely: "...the Cubans would not back down from moving forward by pressuring Kennedy into what they thought would be a victory over Castro having the American military backing (promised by Eisenhower's administration which included Nixon and Bush)." How about sworn testimonies from those who were recruited by Bush? Would that be enough or am I suppose to dig up documents that won't exist because many have been destroyed by the CIA?

Wrong! JFK had ordered a PRE-dawn airstrike from Puerta Cabezas, Nicaragua using retired B-26 bombers that were modified by Colonel Prouty and flown by anti-Castro Cuban pilots. Each plane was basically stripped and then fitted with eight 50 caliber machine guns in their noses. Those planes were NOT cancelled by JFK! In fact, his last standing order was that Castro's remaining T-33 jets must be destroyed by those B-26's while the T-33's are still on the ground or the mission was to be scrubbed!

The fictitious "airstrike" was not cancelled--IT DID NOT EXIST. It was a last ditch effort to compromise the presidency and it didn't work.

You don't appear to have read very much in this thread before posting. The topic is questioning why JFK failed to fire McGeorge Bundy after the Bay of Pigs because Bundy is the one who cancelled the PRE-dawn (not the fictitious last ditch effort) airstrikes. He fired those at CIA for their complicity, but not McGeorge Bundy.

Here we go again! I'm glad you have it all figured out on how you think it all went down by reading documents, but I got it right from those in the middle of the action, sorry Greg but your claims don't hold water.

The fictitious "airstrike" was not cancelled--IT DID NOT EXIST. It was a last ditch effort to compromise the presidency and it didn't work.

Here we go again! Okay Greg if you say so. And BTW, please let me remind you again you said,

What once consisted of a few hundred anti Castro Cubans morphed into a Brigade of over 3,000.

WRONG!

Edited October 15, 2011 by Scott Kaiser

[Scott Kaiser]

BTW? How did you like the photo's of Posada? I thought it was pretty cool too!

[Scott Kaiser]

This is how I understand it from everyone I have talked to in Miami, Eisenhower's plan for the BOP's was his responsibility, Nixon backed the plan. When it came time to launch the plan of attack the Cubans were told by Nixon and Bush that they would have the support of the American military to oust Castro from power. Nixon had always referred to Kennedy's assassination using the code 'Bay of Pigs' because that was part of Nixon's downfall. In the meantime, Richard Nixon, who was running for the Presidency against John Kennedy became involved and convinced the CIA that if they could pull off the whole thing before the early November elections, he would win by a landslide. The CIA couldn't't pull it off, Nixon lost the election and the top three had to brief Kennedy on the invasion plans.

Kennedy was in office and was briefed on the BOP's for (3) months, and on the fourth month the plan of attack became a reality, the Cubans would not back down from moving forward by pressuring Kennedy into what they thought would be a victory over Castro having the American military backing (promised by Eisenhower's administration which included Nixon and Bush). However, it was the (presidents) decision when Kennedy came into office to either mover forward with the original plan of attack or (abort). Kennedy elected to move on "BUT" without the aid of the American military fearing that it would drag in the USSR into a WWIII.

So, what was suppose to be an American coup in Cuba under the original administration of Eisenhower turned out to be a failure, fiasco and a total embarrassment to the United States showing weakness to "The World". As well as the Cubans under Kennedy. JFK knew that Castro only had four or five planes left after the first air strike of planes that were sent into Cuba and was (told that), The CIA and those in the BOP's awaited orders from Kennedy to finish this and destroy the remaining planes, but Kennedy called off the second air strike fearing the retaliation from USSR. Castro ordered his men to sleep under the wings of the planes and retaliate the following day. The first person that received word by radio that Kennedy would call off the second air strike into Cuba was "Osvaldo Coello" who was the CIA's main radio operator on the ship "Barbara". My father, makes mention of him being in "Dallas" the day Kennedy was killed. Kennedy believed that Castro would kill ALL of the men and that would be that, but Kennedy underestimated Castro when Castro decided to imprison them, then negotiated for there release paying Castro over 50,000,000. that's fifty million dollars.

It would then be two years in the making and planing of Kennedy's assassination, he was first and originally to be assassinated in Miami, but then those involved would have been easily identified and everyone would have known that immigrated Cubans of Operation 40 would be behind it, the second place that Kennedy was to be assassinated was in New York, the third place was Chicago and then finally ended with Dallas.

IMO, and the information I've received from those I talked to in Miami, it was a CIA coup to take out Kennedy. BTW, the CIA is sworn to secrecy, they have to sign a confidentiality statement, many were involved in the ousting of Kennedy, it was a large scale operation with such precision and secrecy that could only come of the CIA.

Scott, you can't talk about the plans and order given over calling off air strikes and direct US military involvement without mentioning the military - the DOD - and specifically Gen. Charles Cabell, as I believe he was the man at the switch and calling the shots until he called JFK and asked him about the second air strike. I don't know the details, but I do know that it wasn't just JFK or the CIA who screwed up at the Bay of Pigs - and others were involved. After the Bay of PIgs all such large paramilitary CIA operations were handed over to the DOD.

And it was Cabell who was fired, not Bundy.

BK

Scott, you can't talk about the plans and order given over calling off air strikes and direct US military involvement without mentioning the military - the DOD - and specifically Gen. Charles Cabell, as I believe he was the man at the switch and calling the shots until he called JFK and asked him about the second air strike. I don't know the details, but I do know that it wasn't just JFK or the CIA who screwed up at the Bay of Pigs - and others were involved. After the Bay of PIgs all such large paramilitary CIA operations were handed over to the DOD.

I understand what your saying Bill, but ultimately who has the "last word" in a military strike? I'm not trying to pin it all on Kennedy, but wouldn't you think that I would have some inside information after talking to the CIA in Miami including those who worked for Bush and had access to classified information?

[Greg Burnham]

I apologize, Scott, but I have no time for this. No offense, but do your home work and then check back. In my view you need to rely upon all the available evidence, rather than only that which has come from Miami. You appear to be far behind on this subject. May I suggest the account of the late Colonel L. Fletcher Prouty, USAF--Chief of Special Operations (Team "B") who said:

PROUTY:

SUBJECT: "Jake Engler" and Ed Lansdale re Bay of Pigs

Peter Wyden's book "BAY OF PIGS" is a good narrative; but he did not have access to the real facts--such as the name "Jake Engler. In fact, in the Index, he puts "pseudonym: Bay of Pigs project director". I knew Jake, a true CIA career man; and, because of that I have not revealed his real name either.

However now, more than 35 years later, I will say that in Thomas Powers book, "THE MAN WHO KEPT THE SECRETS: Richard Helms and the CIA" he does correctly include "Jake Engler's" real name: Jake Esterline, and he does give us a Marine Colonel's name; but it is not the one who was the senior Marine on that project.

The actual man behind the tactical plan of the Bay of Pigs landing was an experienced U.S. Marine Corps Colonel. Wyden never mentioned him, nor did Powers and neither will I.

Also, I had placed an experienced Air Force officer in charge of the aircraft operations, for planning and training purposes only, over the Cuban Exile fleet which was actually a larger and stronger Air Force than existed in Latin America at the time. The failure was that these aircraft were not exploited as President Kennedy had ordered them to be used.

One of the most important results of Wyden's incomplete knowledge of that entire operation is evidenced by reference "President Kennedy's order that no Americans were to participate in Cuban military operations." That was not a Kennedy order. That was an Eisenhower Administration NSC Directive, which was still in force. We all knew that. The air strikes had to be flown by Cubans. [emphasis added]

Back when an operation against Castro was first discussed, and the CIA was given directions at the National Security Council level during the Eisenhower term in the Spring of 1960, a few CIA "Fun and Games" i.e. covert operations types came to my office to discuss "Cuban exile force support matters by the U.S. military." (Note "support" not operational.) Their first requirement was a military base for Cuban exile training purposes. I took them to Panama where there was adequate space and the facilities for that task at Ft Gulick until the other bases in Nicaragua and Guatemala were readied.

(For those who may be interested in my book, "JFK, the CIA, Vietnam and the Plot to Assassinate John F. Kennedy" ha been re-issued in paperback and is available. It contains the full coverage of the items we are discussing now.)

The important matter, and the one that is rarely in print, is that the Eisenhower order that "No active duty U.S. Military personnel were to be involved in the Bay of Pigs operation" was not exclusively applied to that operation. [emphasis added]

In 1954 the Eisenhower National Security Council issued a top-level directive, number 5412, that prohibited the employment of active duty U.S. military personnel in any covert operation. This directive was in effect during the entire Kennedy administration; and it was not JFK's order that the U.S. Military aircraft could not be used to support the faltering Bay of Pigs operation. He simply reminded the Defense Dept. and the CIA that the Eisenhower policy was still in effect.

In fact it was JFK who ordered that crucial Cuban exile crew and B-26 attack for the morning of the landing in Cuba and it was McGeorge Bundy, the National Security Advisor, who for reasons that have never been made clear, telephoned the Deputy Director, Central Intelligence, General C.P. Cabell directing him to cancel the Cuban Exile force B-26 attack. This was the immediate cause of the failure of that operation as determined by the Cuban study Group established by President Kennedy the day after the Cuban exile brigade surrender. [snip...]

L. Fletcher Prouty

.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Greg Burnham

[Greg Burnham]

Reply to Greg Burnham:

This is the response to the good paper we have received from Greg Burnham on the subject of Marine Colonel Jack Hawkins, and other special operations matters

TO Gregory Burnham:

You ask about Col. Jack Hawkins. I certainly do remember him mostly from the Bay of Pigs days. I have looked in a 1963 Pentagon telephone book and find him listed for that year. He was the tactical man we got from the Marines to plan the landing of the Anti-Castro unit and train them. I knew that he was against the project, as many of us were for purely tactical reasons. These Cubans in the USA were not military trained and the restrictions placed upon the project were too severe.

Actually Bissell's comment to Hawkins about "air support ready to strike, if needed" was accurate. We had provided the rebels with 16 B-26's that I had put through a transition project in Arizona. They had 8 50 Cal. machine guns in each nose. (With this is mind,) Castro had only 10 capable combat aircraft Kennedy ordered them all to be destroyed before the landing. On Sat., a.m., May 15th they were attacked and all of 7 were destroyed. We scoured Cuba with U-2 reconnaisance and found that three jets that Castro had left were all that he had; but these armed jets could easily shoot down the B-26's. Therefore Kennedy made it very clear on May 16th that the landing could not take place until the Rebel's B-26's had totally destroyed the last three Castro jets...ON THE GROUND. (If this had been done, as ordered by the President then the 16 bombers could have supported the invasion and the Cuban rebels would have had a more than even chance to beat Castro's ground troops and their equipment by bombardment.

Bissell had not lied to JFK; but McGeorge Bundy called Gen. Cabell, then Deputy Director of the CIA and told him that the bombing must not take place until the invaders had landed at the Bay of Pigs. It was about 3:30 am then and Cabell was having trouble locating Rusk to get his opinion. Of all things, Allen Dulles was out of the country.

That is the basic mistake. I won't carry it further here. All of the details are in my book "The Secret Team" and in my new CD-ROM. They will tell you the rest of the story. I can send you the CD if you want ($34.95)

You have printed an interesting line: "there was a high motivation for the Agency to compromise JFK politically." The story is more than that. In late Dec. 1959, when Castro and his rebels were marching into Havana, a group of us in the Special Ops business were ordered into an office. There we were told that if Castro did take over Havana we were going to be ordered to a rebel force. Recall this was under Eisenhower and Nixon.

Well no call came and after midnight when we had the office TV on and were watching the "New Years" celebrations we were told we could go home. Castro was the new ruler of Cuba. Later in the spring of 1960, Castro came to New York City to speak at the United Nations. Following that speech, he went to Washington and had a meeting with Nixon. After that meeting, Nixon commented with reporters saying, more or less, that if Castro was not a Communist he was close to it. That set the tone for the Eisenhower people to order the CIA to prepare to over-throw his Government.

A little later a team from the CIA came to my office in the Pentagon (At that time I was the Special Operations officer there for the Air Force). They asked me if we had an airfield that could be used for a base to train aircrews and to get aircraft for them for a Cuban anti-Castro rebel group. This started it all.

During this period summer of 1960, we were coming up on a presidential election time and JFK nominated by the Democrats. The Republicans were certain that they would win; so they began to put all the new, and huge appropriations into the next year for "President" Nixon; but in a surprise he was not elected and I never saw such emotional feelings as then. I was then working in the office of the Secretary of Defense, in the Office of Special Operations. In the halls of the Pentagon you could hear the dislike of the new President; and the realization of the fact that JFK had inherited billions of dollars of procurement money for high cost items such and the $6 or $7 billion dollar TFX aircraft buy. In one tactical move the Republicans changed the Anti-Castro plans from small over-the-beach and air drop tactics to a major invasion. In no time they had built up a 3,000 man force that had to be trained and equipped, and dumped it all in JFK's lap.

They did not realize that JFK already knew the Anti-Castro leaders who had been guests of the Kennedy's at their big Florida resort home. One day I was sent to the Senate Office building to a certain room number to pick up four men and have them driven to the Pentagon and to the Secretary of Defense, Gates.

The office turned out to be Senator Kennedy's office and the four men were the leaders of the Cuban Exile group: Artime, Varona, Mendonca and one more. Here it was only early summer of 1959, and JFK had yet be nominated for the Presidency by the Democrats, and he was entertaining them in his family's winter home in West Palm Beach and in his Senate office building. People did know how well JFK knew them.

The most influential debate he had before the election with Nixon was the third, when they debated the Cuban Problem. Kennedy just made Nixon look ridiculous; and that debate alone perhaps won for JFK his narrow managing in the election.

Shortly after the election a team of top level CIA officials came to my office and requested that I get base facilities for at least 3,000 Cuban exiles, and enough aircraft for them. They built the Cuban force immediately by those numbers and then with Kennedy's inauguration they dumped it all in his lap.

By April 1961 the invasion plan had been worked out under the leadership of Jack Hawkins. It was all predicated on the fact that the Invasion Force would destroy all of Castro's aircraft BEFORE the invasion took place. This was the plan that was briefed to the Joint Chiefs of Staff, approved by them and taken to Kennedy. Kennedy said little about it except on Sunday, April 17th he finally approved the invasion with the strict proviso that all of Castro's jets would be destroyed; or the invasion force would not be landed on the beach. We all understood that.

For some reason, at 9:30PM McGeorge Bundy called Gen. Cabell, Deputy Director of the CIA and told him that the invasion was off until the men were on the beach. B-26 invasion planes that had been put on stand-by in Nicaragua were not to be released until dawn. This of course was against Kennedy's orders, because the three jets that Castro had could easily destroy them.

Gen. Cabell left the office in an attempt to locate Sec. of State Rusk. He knew that order had to be changed. While he was doing that the hours passed, and I got a telephone call from the air commander in Nicaragua who was all upset. He knew if the B-26's were not there by dawn the jets would take off and down them. I could hear the B-26 engines running in the background. I made many calls around Washington to get help with this essential problem. As the clock kept running it became too late for the B-26's to arrive before dawn while the T-33 jets were on the ground. Meanwhile the troops were landing at the Bay of Pigs. The whole thing was a disaster...and it was not Kennedy's fault. The last order he had given that day was "The B-26's must destroy the jets before they take off or the invasion must be cancelled," This was the military approved plan and Kennedy's orders.

You are correct also about the Power's U-2. That flight was made to fail by a shortage of the proper fuel. The engine stopped when Powers was about one half way to his goal in Norway. He did not use his parachute, because he could fly the plane to the ground. That also caused the important Paris Conference on May 1, 1960 that had been planned between Eisenhower and Khrushchev to be cancelled

As you may know, the Korean War and the Vietnam War were both planned at the Teheran Conference in Oct 1943. When the Japanese surrendered on Sept 2, 1945 the enormous supply of equipment and arms -stockpiled for 500,000 men, were divided in half and one half was sent to Korea and the other half to Vietnam. In later years both were used in wars in which the U.S. was heavily involved and both Presidents were blamed for them. This created especially opposition against Kennedy in the year 1963, and led to his death.

Kennedy had already issued Presidential Directives during Oct 1963 to the effect that 1000 American personnel would be out of Vietnam by Christmas 1963, and that all American personnel would be out of Vietnam by the end of 1965. This was the final action that caused his assassination by the powers that wanted to continue the costly, and profitable... to them... warfare in Vietnam.

You are correct about the Bay of Pigs landing disaster, except for the details that the Cuban rebels were equipped with armed B-26 's; and if used while Castro's jets were still on the ground on the morning o April 18th that would easily been destroyed. Then the landing force would have had, little or no real opposition and they would have defeated Castro.

The JCS and Kennedy had both ordered that if the jets were not destroyed there would be no invasion. Kennedy had ordered that no "active duty USA aircraft would be used in that invasion". This was a firm order that we all understood. You are correct that Kennedy's NSAM #263 would have had us out of Vietnam for sure. I was one of its writers. I know how determined he was, but that was Oct 11,1963. Kennedy was dead on Nov 22, 1963.

We all can see the connection.

L. Fletcher Prouty

[Scott Kaiser]

I apologize, Scott, but I have no time for this. No offense, but do your home work and then check back. In my view you need to rely upon all the available evidence, rather than only that which has come from Miami. You appear to be far behind on this subject. May I suggest the account of the late Colonel Fletcher L. Prouty In my view you need to rely upon all the available evidence, rather than only that which has come from Miami. , USAF--Chief of Special Operations (Team "B") who said:

Greg, I can understand your argument, and I sympathize with your lack of knowledge at hand, especially when it comes to the Bay of Pigs. You say,

In my view you need to rely upon all the available evidence, rather than only that which has come from Miami.

But that's all it is, your view, everything! And I mean everything from the BOP, to Watergate to the assassination of Kennedy came out of Miami, my father was the sixth man in the Watergate caper affairs and who stole the photos of Hunt and Sturgis when in Dallas.

You really need to STOP hanging yourself off the tail of Fletcher Prouty. There is a lot more to it, it seems to me that everyone had an opinion including Prouty, but lets not forget he was JUST a Col. for Christ's sake who thought he could pin Edward Lansdale at Dallas, seriously man! Everyone has something to say about Kennedy's assassination, but I'll tell you one thing, what you get from me is the truth, testimonies and evidence.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Scott Kaiser

[Scott Kaiser]

That is the basic mistake. I won't carry it further here. All of the details are in my book "The Secret Team" and in my new CD-ROM. They will tell you the rest of the story. I can send you the CD if you want ($34.95)

Is this what its all about! Money, lies and propaganda? Oh boy, I have talk to those who directly took orders from Bush, give me a fu**ing break man, please! In my next trip I'll also be talking to Felix Rodriguez. I didn't have enough time on this trip, but you can bet your assets that I will be talking to several BOP survivors.

[Scott Kaiser]

What I should do is take a picture of the book that was (given) to me and let you read that, then make up your mind, if fact give me 5 mins. and I do just... Just that for you....

Edited October 15, 2011 by Scott Kaiser

[Greg Burnham]

Scott,

Please do yourself a favor. Look up National Security Directive 5412. It states that NO ACTIVE US MILITARY PERSONNEL OR EQUIPMENT can be used for COVERT OPERATIONS. Period. That was an EISENHOWER administration directive. My father worked for Truman and Eisenhower.

After you have done that you can correct your post that says there was an "Eisenhower Plan" that included the use of DIRECT US MILITARY OPERATIONAL SUPPORT including airstrikes at the Bay of Pigs--which is, you claim, the part of the Eisenhower Bay of Pigs Plan that Kennedy changed. It might be what your "sources" in Miami believe, but it is false.

I urge you to do the homework before commenting further. My father was my best source. Colonel Prouty, my second best. Gerry Hemming proved to be one of my best friends--my best man in abstentia for my wedding--and a great source. Before calling people out, do your homework.

[Scott Kaiser]

Oh boy you don't want to know what everyone thought about Hemming in Miami. And as for National Security Directive 5412 Eisenhower Plan backed by Nixon who BTW founded operation 40 was just that "Eisenhower Plan". Now, I need to stop writing/typing and get these photos up.

Edited October 15, 2011 by Scott Kaiser

[Greg Burnham]

The Cuban Exile community, in general, rightfully tends to require respect before divulging information. The Cuban Study Group does for sure. Before you approach, DO YOUR HOMEWORK! You'll thank me in the end. A word to the wise...

eom.

[Scott Kaiser]

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Nino%20Diaz%20001.JPG

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Frank%20Pais.JPG

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/20673422/Raul%20Pujol%20brother%20of%20Jose%20Pujol.JPG