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The Houston/Elm WIDE turn, Truly & Towner


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Mr. TRULY. I assume that is the underpass that you have marked Parkway.

Mr. BELIN. The street leading to the expressway, that diagonal street?

Mr. TRULY. That is right.

And the President's car following close behind came along at an average speed of 10 or 15 miles an hour. It wasn't that much, because they were getting ready to turn. And the driver of the Presidential car swung out too far to the right, and he came almost within an inch of running into this little abutment here, between Elm and the Parkway. And he slowed down perceptibly and pulled back to the left to get over into the middle lane of the parkway. Not being familiar with the street, he came too far out this way when he made his turn.

Mr. BELIN. He came too far to the north before he made his curve, and as he curved--as he made his left turn from Houston onto the street leading to the expressway, he almost hit this north curb?

Mr. TRULY. That is right. Just before he got to it, he had to almost stop, to pull over to the left.

If he had maintained his speed, he would probably have hit this little section here.

Will do a search and see about other info related to this turn and who describes it... yet there is something very fishy about Towner and the Zfilm if this WIDE turn and almost stop occurred... while I took a few frames out of the Towner gif... we all know the film is smooth other than the break... and does NOT appear as if the limo slows, turns radically left or any of it...

Is there ANY evidence for this turn beyond testimony?

DJ

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You can see a slight slowing of the limo in the Hughes film...but suspiciously, not the moment of the limo's approach to the turn.

http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=jfk+hughes+film+&view=detail&mid=08DA283ED0DC46DF3C2408DA283ED0DC46DF3C24&first=0&FORM=LKVR4

Thanks David...

But that WIDE turn over by the curb does not seem to be in any of the films....

and then getting from that curb to the limo's position in 135 seems a bit of a stretch.... especially if the SS follow up car and other cars followed... The SS car is right behind the limo at 135...

Both cars made this wide turn?

DJ

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In Hughes one can see hesitation right at the apogee of the curve, which is where the film cuts in after the edit. The car moves fluidly just after that. Note that the driver of the white pilot car isn't confident of the turn, either. Here's a better link to Hughes:

Is the Towner film cut, where Bob Harris point out that it is, to cover re-editing that disguises a slowing of the limo? Something happened at that point, as JFK's hand motion expresses confusion just before the film break, and after the break he suddenly straightens from a lean to his left. But nobody else is leaning. Here's Towner, with the lead-in intact:

It's worth examining the list of those who testified to the wide turn, including Roy Truly. Could the "wide turn" have been invented to explain away some other happening?

On the other hand - if Kennedy is flinching because a bullet struck the pavement there - who in that corner throng ever reported such a thing?

Edited by David Andrews
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In Hughes one can see hesitation right at the apogee of the curve, which is where the film cuts in after the edit. The car moves fluidly just after that. Note that the driver of the white pilot car isn't confident of the turn, either. Here's a better link to Hughes:

Is the Towner film cut, where Bob Harris point out that it is, to cover re-editing that disguises a slowing of the limo? Something happened at that point, as JFK's hand motion expresses confusion just before the film break, and after the break he suddenly straightens from a lean to his left. But nobody else is leaning. Here's Towner, with the lead-in intact:

It's worth examining the list of those who testified to the wide turn, including Roy Truly. Could the "wide turn" have been invented to explain away some other happening?

On the other hand - if Kennedy is flinching because a bullet struck the pavement there - who in that corner throng ever reported such a thing?

What puzzles me is how fast this limo always seems to be going, but I've heard it claimed it was only traveling 5mph on Elm. And this faster speed is seen in Towner and Hughes and the Z-film. Did the people who developed these films take out frames to speed the films up? How was President Kennedy shot so accurately going that fast? The limo had to stop and not just at the corner. But I think you're right about the wide turn. It was probably done on purpose right there near the Dal-Tex building. And that's why The Cuban was giving a signal to Greer. It wasn't the peace sign or a the sign of victory. An important researcher told me it meant Attempt 2. And I believe that.

Kathy C

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The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to... Towner suggests no slowing or drastic right-to-left recovery....

Could be I'm just not seeing Twoner correctly and that Truly overstates the turn... Need to find other testimony about the turn....

I was under the impression a number of people testified to seeing dust kick up from a bullet hitting the street BEHIND the limo just after the turn....

Barbara something... I will look but I am SURE there are accounts of that shot...

and you're right... if only Truly mentions it I'd find that suspect....

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Does this look like Kellerman has something to say about the turn, but doesn't?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Repeatedly we hear 12-15 mph when we both know the turn at Elm/Houston could NOT be taken at 15 mph....

According to the info Purvis found regarding the Plat Surveys and distances... the WCR claims that from z168-z171 they were traveling at 3.74mph yet from 171-185, 17.1mph...

Are we going to believe that they SLOWED from 12-15mph down to 3mph AFTER the 120 degree turn? onlt to immediately speed up?

Tom's data is pretty compelling in that we have distances, # of frames and "supposedly" an 18.3fps rate...

So either Truly is exaggerating a bit... or something is fishy with the films and locations related to the turn and frames 207-208 which we can talk about in a different thread...

Edited by David Josephs
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In Hughes one can see hesitation right at the apogee of the curve, which is where the film cuts in after the edit. The car moves fluidly just after that. Note that the driver of the white pilot car isn't confident of the turn, either. Here's a better link to Hughes:

Is the Towner film cut, where Bob Harris point out that it is, to cover re-editing that disguises a slowing of the limo? Something happened at that point, as JFK's hand motion expresses confusion just before the film break, and after the break he suddenly straightens from a lean to his left. But nobody else is leaning. Here's Towner, with the lead-in intact:

It's worth examining the list of those who testified to the wide turn, including Roy Truly. Could the "wide turn" have been invented to explain away some other happening?

On the other hand - if Kennedy is flinching because a bullet struck the pavement there - who in that corner throng ever reported such a thing?

What puzzles me is how fast this limo always seems to be going, but I've heard it claimed it was only traveling 5mph on Elm. And this faster speed is seen in Towner and Hughes and the Z-film. Did the people who developed these films take out frames to speed the films up? How was President Kennedy shot so accurately going that fast? The limo had to stop and not just at the corner. But I think you're right about the wide turn. It was probably done on purpose right there near the Dal-Tex building. And that's why The Cuban was giving a signal to Greer. It wasn't the peace sign or a the sign of victory. An important researcher told me it meant Attempt 2. And I believe that.

Kathy C

Hi Kathy

According the the survey data... the limo goes from 3.74 to 17.1 to 18.7 to 12.06 to 28.69 to 11.12 mph between z168 and z222 and varying intervals... the most interesting being the 28.69mph from z207 to z208...

In one frame they say the limo moved 2.3 feet... yet at 206 and 209 the limo is moving at 12 and 11 mph... CANT BE.

From 161-166, 5 frames, the limo moved .9 feet - 2.24mph...

yet from 166-185, 19 frames and 19.2 feet (based on the surveys) equates to 12.6 mph

The more we look at the ACTUAL EVIDENCE OFFERED about the speed - the more we see LARGE fluctuations in this speed which is both not consistent with their training nor with what we see on the film...

Mr. SPECTER. Did you endeavor to maintain a constant speed in the operation of the President's car so as to avoid contact with this close gap between the President's car and the President's follow-up automobile?

Mr. GREER. Yes, sir. We tried to drive at a very steady speed. We are used to driving with each other, and we almost can tell each other's thoughts what we do, because of the training we have had, and we work so long together. We drive at a steady pace of speed, so that we give each other enough ample time to stop or move in close

As you elude to Kathy... the 18.3 fps - if off by 20% - could account for the additional frames... or it really was 18.3 and frames were removed - the JUMP at z135 to the limo is, to me, a tell tale sign.

Reading Zaps testimony... I guess we're just supposed to take the word of Mr Liebeler - huh? Like a little Specter here...

"Are copies of your film that we say are copies of your film, really copies of your film? :blink:

Mr. LIEBELER - Yes, specifically, I first call your attention to No. 185. This is No. 185 on the back of it and will you look at the whole book and identify it if you can and tell us that those are the pictures that--that those appear to be the pictures or copies of the pictures that you took from your motion picture camera?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - Well, I would say this, they look like--if they were taken from the film I had--these are the ones. I mean, I don't know how to express myself.

Mr. LIEBELER - Well, they were.

and sure seems to me that Zap never stopped filming and WANTED to catch the motorcade turn onto Elm...

Mr. LIEBELER - As you stood there on this abutment with your camera, the motorcade came down Houston Street and turned left on Elm Street, did it not?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's right.

Mr. LIEBELER - And it proceeded then down Elm Street toward the triple underpass; is that correct?

Mr. ZAPRUDER - That's correct. I started shooting--when the motorcade started coming in, I believe I started and wanted to get it coming in from Houston Street.

This is starting to get VERY interesting...

DJ

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The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to.

It's actually the end of the slowing we see after the break in Hughes, then the limo moves more quickly.

The limo should have been speeding up as the crowd thinned on Elm and as they were going to drive under the triple overpass onto Stemmons. But I find in these films the limo going fast and I don't believe it because the limo had to stop so they could shoot Kennedy with accuracy from the fence/parking lot area of the Grassy Knoll and the Dal-Tex building.

My opinion.

Kathy C

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The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to... Towner suggests no slowing or drastic right-to-left recovery....

Could be I'm just not seeing Twoner correctly and that Truly overstates the turn... Need to find other testimony about the turn....

I was under the impression a number of people testified to seeing dust kick up from a bullet hitting the street BEHIND the limo just after the turn....

Barbara something... I will look but I am SURE there are accounts of that shot...

and you're right... if only Truly mentions it I'd find that suspect....

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Does this look like Kellerman has something to say about the turn, but doesn't?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Repeatedly we hear 12-15 mph when we both know the turn at Elm/Houston could NOT be taken at 15 mph....

According to the info Purvis found regarding the Plat Surveys and distances... the WCR claims that from z168-z171 they were traveling at 3.74mph yet from 171-185, 17.1mph...

Are we going to believe that they SLOWED from 12-15mph down to 3mph AFTER the 120 degree turn? onlt to immediately speed up?

Tom's data is pretty compelling in that we have distances, # of frames and "supposedly" an 18.3fps rate...

So either Truly is exaggerating a bit... or something is fishy with the films and locations related to the turn and frames 207-208 which we can talk about in a different thread...

Personally:

If it carries any weight, I would go for the "fishy"!

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Agree wholeheartedly Tom...

I just can't visualize the process that allows what we see on the films to have been the end product of alteration unless either

a) there were MANY more frames taken than what we finally see (faster camera speed - 24fps and all of Chris D's work makes perfect sense)

B) what we see is a composite

c) :blink:

Your survey work is wonderful - thank you....

btw, how do I get a copy of "There is no Magic"?

DJ

The Hughes pause may give away the beginning of the slowing but not the entire thing as you elude to... Towner suggests no slowing or drastic right-to-left recovery....

Could be I'm just not seeing Twoner correctly and that Truly overstates the turn... Need to find other testimony about the turn....

I was under the impression a number of people testified to seeing dust kick up from a bullet hitting the street BEHIND the limo just after the turn....

Barbara something... I will look but I am SURE there are accounts of that shot...

and you're right... if only Truly mentions it I'd find that suspect....

Mr. SPECTER. How many lanes of travel were there on Elm Street?

Mr. GREER. It was either three or four lanes wide. I have forgotten.

Mr. SPECTER. In what portion of the street were you traveling?

Mr. GREER. I was right in the center of the street.

Does this look like Kellerman has something to say about the turn, but doesn't?

Mr. SPECTER. Do you know how far behind you the President's followup car was as you turned right onto Houston from Main Street?

Mr. KELLERMAN. No; I don't, but I am positive it was right on our rear wheels.

Mr. SPECTER. All right.

Now, as you turned left off Houston onto Elm, what is your best estimate of the speed of the President's automobile at that time?

Mr. KELLERMAN. As we turned onto Elm Street and the crowd, we were through the section of Dallas; we might have had--the driver picked it up because we were all through. Purely a guess, we could have been going at the most 25.

Mr. SPECTER. What would your estimate, your minimum estimate, of the speed be?

Mr. KELLERMAN. Fifteen.

Repeatedly we hear 12-15 mph when we both know the turn at Elm/Houston could NOT be taken at 15 mph....

According to the info Purvis found regarding the Plat Surveys and distances... the WCR claims that from z168-z171 they were traveling at 3.74mph yet from 171-185, 17.1mph...

Are we going to believe that they SLOWED from 12-15mph down to 3mph AFTER the 120 degree turn? onlt to immediately speed up?

Tom's data is pretty compelling in that we have distances, # of frames and "supposedly" an 18.3fps rate...

So either Truly is exaggerating a bit... or something is fishy with the films and locations related to the turn and frames 207-208 which we can talk about in a different thread...

Personally:

If it carries any weight, I would go for the "fishy"!

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Hi David,

Here is a shortened,stabilized version for you.

I've slowed it down.

http://24.152.179.96:8400/49F25/TOWNER3.gif

chris

Hi Chris, thanks for the great gif....

Seems to me that the distance steps from frame to frame, except for the splice, is uniform

and the limo is nowehere NEAR that curb by those people....

Look where the turn STARTS in towner... looks like center lane to center lane.... andnot WIDE at all...

curious

DJ

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