JFK Special: Oswald was the man in the Doorway, after all!

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Go back and review the bidding. I asked if you might do something "more constructive" by overlaying the

star cluster on top of the original. I did not think I was asking for the moon. YOU DID NOT DO IT. Now I

am CHALLENGING SOMETHING YOU HAVE CLAIMED, namely, that this star cluster was what happened

when the windshield was removed. We know that is false. I have cited chapter and verse--in fact, you can

find Doug Weldon's chapter in MURDER IN DEALEY PLAZA (2000). We know what you are claiming is

not true because the official who was responsible for its removal CONFIRMED that it had a through-and-

through hole in it. So I am just the least bit take aback that, when you are such a wizard doing the stuff

that others have asked of you, when I challenge a claim you have made, you back down. My question

thus becomes, HOW COULD YOU HAVE KNOWN THAT WHAT YOU CLAIMED WAS TRUE? Tell us.

Robin,

Let me get this straight. EVEN AFTER I HAVE ASKED YOU TO POST AN OVERLAY OF THE SUBSTITUTE WINDSHIELD OVER THE ORIGINAL, YOU HAVE NOT DONE THAT? What's going on, Robin? What are you doing here? Only posting stuff that supports one side?

Jim

Robin,

Why don't you do something more useful, like overlaying this substitute windshield over the original on the Altgens? We were engaged in an important discussion of the Altgens, which this guy has diverted. Let's get back to Lee Oswald in the doorway.

I mean, this is JFK 101! I can't believe anyone is still being taken in by Joshia Thompson's endless stream of JFK rubbish. For those who want to read the complete Costello review of MURDER in The Federal Lawyer, go to http://assassination...com/george.html

Beautiful Robin. Just beautiful!!

JT

CE350 / NARA windshield Animated GIF

In the NARA image, the Nebular star shaped cracks have been extended, due to the windshield being kicked out during the removal process.

Quote:

Robin,

Why don't you do something more useful, like overlaying this substitute windshield over the original on the Altgens? We were engaged in an important discussion of the Altgens, which this guy has diverted. Let's get back to Lee Oswald in the doorway.

You said the thread was being diverted and you wanted it back to the doorway.

I then diverted it back to the doorway.

As for the Altgen's / Nara overlay.

First, You find me a good large enough copy of the "FULL WINDSCREEN" in the NARA files.

Quote:

but I have asked Robin to perform a simple overlay

It is not a SIMPLE overlay, if it's so simple ,you do it.Jim

I am waiting to see your results.

Lastly, DON'T BARK ORDERS AT ME JIM

i don't respond well to being ordered to do something.

WHO THE HELL DO YOU THINK YOU ARE.

i'M DONE WITH YOU

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Bernice,

What I find fascinating about these two newspaper reports is that they show the obfuscation of the man

with no face and no shirt to the right/front (as we look at Doorway Man). If Lovelady WAS wearing that

checkered shirt, then why in the world did he go to the FBI and tell them that he had worn the striped one?

Jim

Cheers Robin.......yes release some Gary, hey never mind some how about all..with no charge... ...i know forget it...thanks robin...

here are a couple of altgens copies that were printed in the newspapers..one from jack...one is a Copy of the one from CURRY'S BOOK....AND FROM THE ANTHONY MARSH COLLECTION, A COPY oF THE ORIGINAL ALTGENS FRAME.....fwtaw..a copy of the large altgens lightened......b.excuse caps thanks...

sorry it would ony allow me to post two, i will try again..??

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Why am I not surprised? Tink is giving us the old, "Who are you going to believe--me or your lying eyes?",

routine. He doesn't like being caught with his pants down, which I have done again and again lately, where

this is only the latest example. Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to

the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same

color. There is nothing here that even remotely resembles the cracked or star configuration. Nothing at all!

You say, "Well, if you click on the photograph, you can see the white, spiral nebula. It is from the side, of course, and we could certainly perform the experiment over and over again to test the result he reported. It's called replication and is fundamental to science."

Okay folks, click away and see what you get. You can't see anything like this if you put your face up close to the microdotted photo in your book. How come you just make this stuff up to get out of a bind you got yourself in.

Then you talk about "replication" and give us a lecture about "replication" and the philosophy of science. But you never tried to replicate any of this, did you? You just got a letter from some dude with a bleary photograph and bought into the the whole thing. You have never been able to produce anything in the way of evidence and now you're stuck. You have to tell people to "click on the photograph" and when they do that they will see that you.. undeniably and with malice aforethought.. are just blowing smoke.

JT

[Josiah Thompson]

"Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same color."

Just do it. Enlarge the image and see if what Fetzer says is true? It isn't.

JT

Why am I not surprised? Tink is giving us the old, "Who are you going to believe--me or your lying eyes?",

routine. He doesn't like being caught with his pants down, which I have done again and again lately, where

this is only the latest example. Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to

the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same

color. Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to

the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same

color.!

You say, "Well, if you click on the photograph, you can see the white, spiral nebula. It is from the side, of course, and we could certainly perform the experiment over and over again to test the result he reported. It's called replication and is fundamental to science."

Okay folks, click away and see what you get. You can't see anything like this if you put your face up close to the microdotted photo in your book. How come you just make this stuff up to get out of a bind you got yourself in.

Then you talk about "replication" and give us a lecture about "replication" and the philosophy of science. But you never tried to replicate any of this, did you? You just got a letter from some dude with a bleary photograph and bought into the the whole thing. You have never been able to produce anything in the way of evidence and now you're stuck. You have to tell people to "click on the photograph" and when they do that they will see that you.. undeniably and with malice aforethought.. are just blowing smoke.

JT

[Richard Hocking]

Altgen's / Weigman Composite

Altgen's perspective is VERY misleading.

Without comparing Altgen's 6 with the Weigman frames, you will NEVER understand the true locations of the spectators seen standing in the doorway.

Weigman Frame

Robin,

Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture?

[Thomas Graves]

Altgen's / Weigman Composite

Altgen's perspective is VERY misleading.

Without comparing Altgen's 6 with the Weigman frames, you will NEVER understand the true locations of the spectators seen standing in the doorway.

Weigman Frame

Robin,

Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture?

Just as a point of reference, does anyone know the name of "Stetson Hat Man"? Also, does anybody know if "Looking Back Man" was ever questioned as to why he was looking back towards the TSBD entrance?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited January 30, 2012 by Thomas Graves

[Pat Speer]

Altgen's / Weigman Composite

Altgen's perspective is VERY misleading.

Without comparing Altgen's 6 with the Weigman frames, you will NEVER understand the true locations of the spectators seen standing in the doorway.

Weigman Frame

Robin,

Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture?

Just as a point of reference, does anyone know the name of "Stetson Hat Man"? Also, does anybody know if "Looking Back Man" was ever questioned as to why he was looking back towards the TSBD entrance?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Here are the statements of the witnesses claiming to have been in the vicinity of the steps and/or entrance.

James Worrell (11-23-63 affidavit to Dallas County, 16H959) “I was standing on the sidewalk against a building on the corner of Elm and Houston Streets watching the motorcade of the President. I heard a loud noise like a fire cracker or gun shots. I looked around to see where the noise came from. I looked up and saw the barrel of a rifle sticking out of a window…While I was looking at the gun it was fired again. I looked back at Mr. Kennedy and he was slumping over. I got scared and ran from that location. While I was running I heard the gun fire two more times. I ran from Elm Street to Pacific Street on Houston. When I was about 100 yards from the building I stopped to get my breath and looked back at the building. I saw a w/m, 5’8” to 5’10”, dark hair, average weight for height, dark shirt or jacket open down front, no hat, didn’t have anything in his hands, come out of the building and run in the opposite direction.” (3-6-64 article on Worrell in the Dallas Times-Herald) "He said he was standing directly below the sixth floor of the depository when he heard a shot. 'I looked up real quick and saw the barrel fire again. I looked to see where it hit and saw President Kennedy hit in the back of the head. Then I looked up again and saw it fire a third time. I was 'moving out' by then and didn't see where it hit,' he said. The youth, currently unemployed and no longer enrolled at Thomas Jefferson High School, also claims he heard a fourth shot as he ran around the corner. 'I heard four shots, I don't care what they say,' he said." (3-10-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H190-201) “as they went by me, they got, oh at least another 50, 75 feet on past me, and then I heard the shots…I looked up and saw the rifle…I looked to see where he was aiming and after the second shot and I have seen the President slumping down in the seat…I looked up again and turned around and started running and saw it fire a third time…I did it all in one motion, I looked up, turned around, and ran, pivoted…everybody was screaming and saying “duck”…Just as I got to the corner I heard the fourth shot…they were right in succession…I turned the corner, went right down beside the building on the sidewalk and when I got to the corner…Of this building (The Texas School Book Depository) (I) ”Cut directly across, kind of at an angle…I rested there… approximately three minutes before I saw this man come out the back door.” (When asked to estimate the time span of the shots) “best estimate 5, 6 seconds” (When asked how he knew the rifle fired the second shot) “I saw what you might call a little flame and smoke.” (When asked about the third shot) “Same thing, a little flash of fire, and then smoke.”

Clotile Williams (7-24 64 FBI report, CD1395, p.6) “she took up a position on the northwest corner of Houston and Elm Streets…shortly after President Kennedy’s car passed this position she heard some shots. She said she does not recall the number of shots fired…she did not see anything that aroused her suspicion and did not know where the shots came from.”

Mrs. H.G. Whitaker worked on the third floor of the depository building. (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 19 of the Dallas JFK Archive) (She) "got back to the steps of the building on the Elm Street side. This was the Texas School Book Depository Building. This was about 12:30 PM. She saw the motorcade pass and then heard two shots...She did not recall ever having seen Oswald...She stated the shots sounded like they came from the west of the building but they did sound as if they came from above."

Carl Jones (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H657) “When President John F. Kennedy was shot I was sitting on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository…I heard three shots just after President Kennedy passed by in his car and I saw him slump in his seat.”

Madie Reese (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.59) “Mrs. Reese…heard three shots or what seemed…to be shots. At first she thought the shots came from the alcove near the benches.” (2-17-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, CD950 p.47) "The subject stated that on the day of the assassination she was on the steps in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building, waving at the motorcade as it passed the building. She stated that she heard three reports, distinct and separate and knew that they were reports of gunfire." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H669) “I…took up a position on the second step from the bottom (in front) of the main entrance of the Depository Building…Mrs. Dean was standing directly to my left at the time of the assassination…and we both heard the three shots…I do not recall having ever consciously seen Lee Harvey Oswald in the Texas School Book Depository Building.”

Mrs. Joseph Eddie Dean aka Ruth Dean (11-25-63 FBI report 22H839) “President Kennedy had just looked in their direction and waved when she heard a rifle shot. Shortly thereafter she heard another rifle shot and then a third. During these moments, she observed President Kennedy slump down into the car. After the first or second shot, she observed President Kennedy reach to the back of his neck just before he slumped down.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, CD950 p.53) "Subject stated she was standing on the front steps of the building when President J. F. Kennedy was assassinated." (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, CD950 p.55) "Subject further stated that she heard the three shots fired by the assassin. Subject stated that she thought the first shot was a firecracker exploding. After the second shot, subject stated that she knew it was gun shots. Subject further stated that after the third shot, she knew they came from above, but she did not see anyone." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H643) “I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository…As the motorcade passed by I heard three shots and observed the President slump over in the automobile in which he was riding.” (No More Silence, p.70-72, published 1998) “The view where we were was very good. But the motorcade went a little bit beyond us before the shooting started. I heard three shots with two being close together and one a little further apart…I remember seeing Jacqueline Kennedy climb over the back and on to the turtle back of the car, and the Secret service man jumped up and made her get back in the car.”

Mrs. Avery Davis (12-10-63 FBI report, CD7 p.23) “she was standing on the front steps of the building when the president passed and she then heard three explosions. She did not realize they were shots.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3, folder 19, file 6 of Dallas JFK Archive) "She saw the motorcade pass her location. From her location she heard the three shots but thought they came from the railroad to the west." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H642) “A moment after the car in which President John F. Kennedy was riding passed, I heard three explosions. At first I did not realize these explosions were gun shots…I did not know…but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street.”

Judy McCully (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 13 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "She saw the President's car go by, and as the car proceeded down toward the triple underpass, she heard three shots. The shots sounded like they came from the right side of the building in the arcade." (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H663) “I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository Building… As the motorcade passed, I heard some shots fired, but did not know the direction from which they came.

Roy Lewis (12-9-63 FBI report, CD205, p23) “viewed the Presidential motorcade and heard the shots…but could offer no information as to where the shots had come from.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, CD950, p.54) "Subject stated that he was in the entrance of the building when the president was assassinated." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H661) “I stood by myself on the inside of the entrance to the Texas School Book Depository to watch President John F. Kennedy come by the building in a motorcade. I heard three shots fired from somewhere above me, but was unable to see the person who fired them “ (No More Silence, p.84-89, published 1998) “I was standing with some ladies from up in the offices right in the middle of the steps in front of the building that led to the sidewalk beyond the glass door. As the motorcade came by, I remember seeing Kennedy brushing back his hair. That’s when all hell broke loose! I heard BOOM!... BOOM!... BOOM! with the second and third shots being closer together. The people down in front of me hit the ground then everybody started running toward the grassy knoll…I didn’t see any smoke or smell any gunpowder, nor could I tell the direction of the shots because it was like an echo there. But no way did I suspect anything coming from the Texas School Book Depository.”

Mrs. Robert A. Reid (11-22-63 Affidavit to Dallas County, 24H223) “I was standing on the front steps of the building, as the parade drew near I walked closer to the street…Just after the President passed by I heard three shots. The first thing I thought of was someone was shooting at the President.” (11-26-63 FBI report, CD5 p.27) “She had observed the Presidential motorcade proceed down Elm Street from a position in front of the Texas School Book Depository, and had heard three shots which she later determined came from the above building…The only thing she noted was that the three shots had come from above somewhere.” (12-4-63 sworn statement to the U.S. Secret Service, CD87 p798) "As the motorcade drove by I heard what sounded like three shots. I thought at the time that the shots had come from the School Book Depository Building." (12-7-63 Secret Service Report based on interviews conducted between 12-2 and 12-5, CD87 p785) "Mrs. Reid was standing on the street in front of the building and she heard three shots fired. She thought the shots had come from within the building." (3-25-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 3H270-281) (When asked if she was standing directly in front of the main entrance to the depository building at th etime of the shots) "That is correct." (When describing the shots) "I was naturally watching for the car as the President came by. I looked at him and I was very anxious to see Mrs. Kennedy. I looked at her and I was going to see how she was dressed and she was dressed very attractive and she put up her hand to her hat and was holding it on, the wind was blowing a little bit and then went on right on by me and that is the last as far as the parade, I mean as far as they were concerned. I did see Johnson, and that was it. I can't even tell you any more about the parade because after the shots I didn't know any part about that...I heard three shots...And I turned to Mr. Campbell and I said, "Oh, my goodness, I am afraid those came from our building," because it seemed like they came just so directly over my head, and then I looked up in the windows, and saw three colored boys up there, I only recognized one because I didn't know the rest of them so well...James Jarman."

Joe Molina (11-23-63 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 3 folder 19 file 15 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "He states that he heard three shots; he did not know where they came from." (3-25-64 statement to the FBI, 22H664) “the car in which President Kennedy was riding passed the building…Just after his car disappeared from my view I heard three shots.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H368-373) I heard the shots…Sort of like it reverberated…kind of came from the west side…Of course, the first shot was fired then there was an interval between the first and second longer than the second and third.”

Otis Williams (11-24-63 FBI report, CD5 p.64) “at the time the Presidential procession passed the Texas School Book Depository Building, Williams was on the front steps of the building. The Presidential car had just passed the building a few seconds and was out of sight over the embankment when Williams heard three loud blasts. He thought these blasts came from the location of the court house.” (2-18-64 report of the Dallas Police Department, box folder 19 file 20 of the Dallas JFK Archive) "He heard three shots that sounded like they were coming from the west side of the Texas School Book Depository. The president's car had gotten out of Mr. Williams' view when he heard the shots." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H683) “Just after the presidential car passed the building and went out of sight over the Elm Street embankment I heard three loud blasts. I thought these blasts or shots came from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street.” (No More Silence p.116-120, published 1998) “when the motorcade came around the corner and then made that bend to get to the underpass, I had a clear view as it passed by of the President and all in the car, and then it went behind a little wall going toward the underpass. Probably five or ten seconds later is when I first thought I heard the shots. The first one I assumed someone threw a firecracker… It was about five or ten seconds before he was hit when he went out of my sight. I definitely heard three shots. Fact is, as soon as the third shot happened, and everybody commenced milling around, I thought it came from the underpass.”

Buell Wesley Frazier (11-22-63 affidavit for Dallas County, 24H209) “I was standing on the front steps of the building when the parade came by, and I watched the parade go by. After President Kennedy had got out of my sight, I heard three shots. I stood there, then people started running by, and I turned, and went back in the building.” (12-5-63 sworn statement to the U.S. Secret Service, CD87 p796) "I was standing on the front steps when the parade passed in front of the building. When the shooting occurred, I did not realize the shots were really shots until the second one. At first I thought it was backfire. I did not realize the shots had come from this building but thought they had come from somewhere around the triple underpass or railroad tracks." (3-11-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 2H210-245) “just right after he went by he hadn’t hardly got by, I heard a sound and if you have ever been around motorcycles you know how they backfire, and so I thought one of them motorcycles backfired…but it wasn’t just a few seconds that, you know, I heard two more of the same type of, you know, sounds, and by that time people was running everywhere, and falling down and screaming, and naturally then I knew something was wrong…to be frank with you I thought it come from down there, where that underpass is.” (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H647) “At the time President Kennedy was shot I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository. I was with William H. Shelley…and Billy Lovelady.” (2-13-69 testimony in the trial of Clay Shaw) “Just right after they made the turn there was several motorcycle policeman leading the motorcade and right after they turned, after the car made the turn, it sounded like the motorcycles were backfiring…Shortly after there were two more in rapid succession.” (When asked if he knew they were rifle shots) "Well, the two that come in fast succession by that time, like I said, people were hollering, and then I recognized them, they were rifle shots." (When asked the time lapse between the first and second shots) " It was just a few seconds." (When asked the time lapse between the second and third) "When I heard the second noise, the third was followed nearly just right back to back. It was fired in rapid succession." (He was then asked to demonstrate the spacing of the shots by clapping his hands, but the spacing of his hand claps was not noted on the transcripts of the trial) (11-21-77 interview with HSCA investigators Moriarty and Day, edited down from a transcript provided by Richard Gilbride) "everybody was following the presidential motorcade...then I heard a loud sound--motorcycle backfire...from where I was standing, there was some trees and some people--so I actually couldn't see. But what had actually happened was the first shot...and then I heard the same sound. It wasn't anywheres even close to me...It was then that I realized--as people were beginning to run--and it became quite still. Before I had the chance to be heard, a sound--like a motorcycle backfire--what sounded like a backfire erupt." (When asked if the shots sounded the same) "the noises that I heard was all similar...they matched or they were from the 6th story...they seemed to be all pretty the same...Like I say, the first one that was fired, and then it seemed like it was only another few seconds and then they's coming up with another...they was in tandem. They was in the same area, the same direction. You know, like the same sound."

(7-23-86 testimony in televised mock trial, On Trial: Lee Harvey Oswald) (when asked how many shots he heard) "Three" (when asked if he thought the shots came from the railroad) "Yes, sir, from the knoll there." (6-21-2002 oral history with the Sixth Floor Museum) "I was standing at the top of the steps, the entrance, to the Texas School Book Depository. I was standing in the shadows...When they turned from Houston Street onto Elm there, and started down to the underpasses there, I remember I remarked to myself, I said, 'well, they look just like they do in the pictures'... (When asked how long it was after the limo had completed its turn onto Elm Street and started heading away that he heard the first shot) "It wasn't very long before there was a shot. And, as I said earlier, from listening to the motorcycles that was leading the President's car that had been backfiring, at first I thought it was a backfire from a motorcycle..." (When asked if the shot sounded like backfires) "Yes. But then shortly after, there was two more. By that time there was really chaos. There was people running and everything and you knew something wasn't right...I couldn't actually see what was going on in the President's car...After they had passed and dropped out of sight, I couldn't see what was going on." (When asked when he first realized Kennedy had been shot) "By the time the second and third shot was fired, I realized it wasn't a motorcycle backfire, because it had a different sound to it. And I realized someone was firing, and people was, as I said in that whole area there was running and falling down..." (When asked from where he thought the shots were fired) "The sound to me at that time sounded like it was coming from up above...the only thing I can say is that I realized it was gunfire, but to be specific as to what building it was coming from other than saying it was coming from up above where we were standing, I can't be more specific than that..." (When asked how many shots) "I heard three shots. There was one, and then there was, the other two was much closer in succession." (When asked the length of the shooting) "I don't know exact, but probably, I would probably say all, and this is probably, I don't know for a fact, I would probably say all three shots was taken within 15 seconds...There was the first one, and then the second and third one was just almost just back to back. It was very fast." (When asked the time between the last two shots) "I would probably say, maybe five seconds, if it was that long." (When asked if there could have been more or fewer than three shots) "Not fewer than three...I heard three." (When asked where the car was when the first shot was fired) "It wasn't very far after it dropped out of my sight...I couldn't see the car...The car was out of my view when the first shot was fired...(When attempting to clarify his approximation of 15 seconds for the shooting) "If you take and fire a shot say like for instance on the first second, and then the second shot might not have been somewhere until like the 8th to 10th seconds, and then the third one I would say somewhere between the 10th and 15th."

Sarah Stanton (11-23-63 FBI report, CD7 p.20) “She was standing on the front steps as the President passed and shortly thereafter she heard three explosions; however, she did not know where they came from.” (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H675) “when President John F. Kennedy was shot, I was standing on the front steps of the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. William Shelley…Mr. Otis Williams…Mrs. T.B. Saunders…and Billy Lovelady. I heard three shots after the President’s car passed the front of the building but I could not see the President’s car at that time.”

William Shelley (11-22-63 statement to the Dallas Sheriff’s Department, 24H226) “The President’s car was about halfway from Houston Street to the Triple Underpass when I heard what sounded like three shots. I couldn’t tell where they came from. I ran across the street to the corner of the park and ran into a girl crying and she said the President had been shot. The girl’s name is Gloria Calvery… I went back to the building and went inside and called my wife and told her what had happened. I was on the first floor then and I stayed at the elevator and was told not to let anyone out of the elevator. (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H673) “as the Presidential motorcade passed I was standing just outside the glass doors of the entrance. At the time President Kennedy was shot, I was standing at this same place.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H327-334) “I heard something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight pause and then two more a little bit closer together…Sounded like a miniature cannon or baby giant firecracker, wasn’t real loud…Sounded like it came from the west….officers started running down to the lumber yards and Billy and I walked down that way. We walked on down to the first railroad track there on the dead-end street and stood there and watched them searching cars down there in the parking lots for a little while and then we came in through our parking lot at the west end…in the side door into the shipping room… I saw Eddie Piper… He was coming back from where he was watching the motorcade in the southwest corner of the shipping room.”

William Lovelady (11-22-63 statement to Dallas County Sheriff’s Department, 24H214) “When the President came by, Bill Shelley and I was standing on the steps in front of the building where I work. After he had passed and was about 50 yards past us I heard three shots. There was a slight pause after the first shot then the next two was right close together. I could not tell where the shots came from but sounded like they were across the street from us. However, that could have been caused by the echo.” (11-22-63 FBI report, CD5 p332-333) "On November 22, 1963, Lovelady and his foreman, Bill Shelley, were standing on the front doorstep at 411 Elm Street at about 12:30 P.M. watching the Presidential motorcade pass. At about this time he heard three shots. At first he thought it was a firecracker or the backfire of a motorcycle." (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H662) “I recall that following the passing of the Presidential motorcade, as the car in which the President was riding traveled down the Elm Street extension, I heard several loud reports which I first thought to be firecrackers, and which appeared to me to be in the direction of the Elm Street viaduct just ahead of the motorcade. I did not at any time believe the shots had come from the Texas School Book Depository Building.” (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H336-341) “I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn’t occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot…She had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit…We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying…and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.” (5-24-64 article in the New York Herald- Tribune) "He said that while watching the motorcade from the doorway of the Book Depository he distinctly heard three shots--'there was one, then a pause, then two fast ones.'"

Pauline Saunders (11-24-63 FBI report, 22H844) “she stood in the last line of spectators nearest the door to the School Book Depository building…she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the Presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her…Mr. Campbell, Office Manager, arrived shortly after the police officer entered the building and she told him the blasts came from the upper part of the building however he insisted the shots came from the embankment.” (3-19-64 statement to the FBI, 22H672) “after the motorcade car carrying President John F. Kennedy passed, I remained a moment on the steps, then walked out to the concrete island… to see what had happened.”

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Just do it. The hole is not only similar in size, similar in shape, and similar in color--it is even located at

the same approximate location. He is making a deliberate false claim, as everyone can verify themselves.

Just do it. Enlarge the image and see if what Fetzer says is true? It isn't.

JT

Why am I not surprised? Tink is giving us the old, "Who are you going to believe--me or your lying eyes?",

routine. He doesn't like being caught with his pants down, which I have done again and again lately, where

this is only the latest example. Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to

the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same

color. Anyone who enlarges the image from MURDER can see that the damage to

the windshield resembles the small, white, spiral nebua. It is the same size, the same shape, and the same

color.!

You say, "Well, if you click on the photograph, you can see the white, spiral nebula. It is from the side, of course, and we could certainly perform the experiment over and over again to test the result he reported. It's called replication and is fundamental to science."

Okay folks, click away and see what you get. You can't see anything like this if you put your face up close to the microdotted photo in your book. How come you just make this stuff up to get out of a bind you got yourself in.

Then you talk about "replication" and give us a lecture about "replication" and the philosophy of science. But you never tried to replicate any of this, did you? You just got a letter from some dude with a bleary photograph and bought into the the whole thing. You have never been able to produce anything in the way of evidence and now you're stuck. You have to tell people to "click on the photograph" and when they do that they will see that you.. undeniably and with malice aforethought.. are just blowing smoke.

JT

[Guest James H. Fetzer]

Figures A and B are the crucial images, because they have been obfuscated. My initial suspicion has been

that B was Oswald, but because his shirt A has also been obliterated and because the shirt on F has many

features that are more like those of Oswald's shirt than Lovelady's, I am now convinced that they took the

face from B, who was actually Lovelady, and imposed it on F, who was actually Oswald, just as in the case

of the backyard photographs, they imposed Oswald's face on someone else's body, which Jim Marrs and I

have proven--building on the work of others, including Jack White, especially--in "Framing the Patsy: The

Case of Lee Harvey Oswald", http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/08/19/framing-the-patsy-the-case-of-lee-harvey-oswald/ This is just the kind of fabrication of

evidence in which the CIA specializes. It had a problem. Because B's shirt was distinctive--whether it was a

checkered or a striped shirt--they had to remove it, too. Why should anyone be surprised it happened here?

Altgen's / Weigman Composite

Altgen's perspective is VERY misleading.

Without comparing Altgen's 6 with the Weigman frames, you will NEVER understand the true locations of the spectators seen standing in the doorway.

Weigman Frame

Robin,

Have A, B, C, D, E, or G ever been positively identified? Did the WC ever present any of this photographic evidence to witnesses and ask them to pick themselves out in the picture?

Just as a point of reference, does anyone know the name of "Stetson Hat Man"? Also, does anybody know if "Looking Back Man" was ever questioned as to why he was looking back towards the TSBD entrance?

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited January 31, 2012 by James H. Fetzer

[Bernice Moore]

First off, i believe finding the names of the lettered witnesses in weigman was accomplished on the Lancer Forum, some time back...i have found some older posted information from an old thread at Rich's Forum, some years back about the TSBD doorway research, i hesitated to post it, but i believe there is information within that will or may, answer some of the other members questions, that have been asked, so not to throw more fuel on the fire or water to squelch, whichever way one looks at it, here is the info..for whatever it iw... the bell enlargement is posted below of the tsbd entranceway.i think it was Mr.Groden's findings re the doorway, that he used the Bell photo for his studies....

b

I believe these lists below are somewhat different than yours Pat....b

Sunday, December 19, 2004 9:50 PM

Subject: Doorway

1: Shelley:William (Steps):.. Manager of the Depository, (Oswald's

immediate supervisor)and (part of the floor laying crew that day )

testified that he was on the top landing of the entrance watching the

motorcade when he heard the shots:

6: Davis: Mrs.Charles Thomas ( Avery): (Steps).....was standing on the

steps of the Depository, where she worked, when she heard "three

explosions"

9: Williams;Otis Neville,(Steps):.. Book Depository's credit manager,

who was standing on the steps of the building when the assassination

occurred. told the FBI that he heard.

11: Billy Lovelady: (Steps):...an employee of the Depository,( had been

assigned to lay plywood flooring on the sixth floor that

day.."Crossfire"..Marrs)....who at the time of the assassination was

standing on the steps at the entrance to the building, was questioned by

the Commission Counsel Joseph Ball:

13: Frazier; Buell Wesley ( Steps):...the Depository employee who had

driven Oswald to work that morning, was standing on the steps of the

Depository building. He=20

14: Molina: Joseph Rodriquez: ( Steps) :...was standing on the steps of

the Depository building. He was interviewed by the Commission

"None of the TSBD employees who thought the shots came from elsewhere

other

than their building were called as a Warren Commission Witness"...

"Crossfire".....Jim Marrs...

********************************

THE TEXAS SCHOOL BOOK DEPOSITORY......Nov. 22.1963

Witnesses In or Immediately Outside the Depository....

1: Shelley:William (Steps):.. Manager of the Depository, (Oswald's

immediate supervisor)and (part of the floor laying crew that day )

testified that he was on the top landing of the entrance watching the

motorcade when he heard the shots:

Ball: " What seemed to be the direction or source of the sound.?"

Shelley:" Sounded like it came from the West."...VOL.V1, 328-9.

"also: WC:.. "something sounded like it was a firecracker and a slight

pause and then two more a little bit closer together."

He then ran with Lovelady across a small street in front of the

Depository to the North curb of Elm, then down towards the railroad

yards where people were converging..."Crossfire"..Marrs..p.46

The Oswald "nest" was directly over Shelley's head.To the West of his

position is the Grassy Knoll area.

( Shelley told the FBI that TSBD employee and Oswald look-a-like Billy

Lovelady was seated on the steps in front of him at the time of the

shooting .

Oswald upon being questioned by the DPD after his arrest, reportedly

said he encountered Shelley just outside the Depository after the

shooting. According to the official version of Oswald's statements,

Oswald said he then went home because Shelley told him there would be no

more work that day.Shelley denied this,but admitted to being in the

right place for this to have occurred.).."The JFK Assassination."

Benson..p.236.

2: Truly: Roy Sansom... Superintendant of the Depository, was standing

in front of the building , a little West..at the time of the shots... He

joined a policeman, Marrion Baker, and showed him the way to the top of

the Depository.

Com.Council David Belin: "Where did you think the shots came from?"

Truly:" I thought the shots came from the vicinity (of) the railroad or

the WPA project.(pergola or pavillion on the Knoll) , behind the WPA

project West of the building ."

Belin:" Did you have any conversation with the officer (Baker: Marrion

L.)...about where you thought the shots came from?"

Truly: I said " ... I think we are wasting our time up here," or words

to that effect, "I don't believe these shots came from the building

."... Vol.111, 227.

"Truly said after the initial explosion,( he thought it was a

firecracker or toy cannon) everything seemed frozen...Then there were

two more explosions, and he realized that shots were being fired....He

saw the President's car come to a complete stop"...."Crossfire".

Marrs...p.27.

"Truly saw Oswald about 90 seconds after the shooting on the

Depository's second floor calmly drinking a coke....Truly says it was he

who first noticed that Oswald was absent and drew that to the attention

of the police."The JFK Assassination.".Benson...p.268

3: Campbell: Ochus Virgil: ...Vice President of the Depository, was

standing next to Truly in front of the building. He gave an affidavit to

the FBI.

"...I heard shots being fired from a point which I thought was near the

railroad tracks located over the viaduct on Elm Street"..VOL. XX11, 638.

4: Wilson; Steven F. ...Vice President of a textbook publishing company,

watched from his corner office on the third floor of the Depository

---three floors directly beneath the Oswald ":nest". Wilson said in an

FBI affidavit:

"At that time it seemed the shots came from the West end of the building

or from the colonade located on Elm Street across from the West end of

out building . The shots really did not sound like they came from above

me."... VOL; XX11, 685.

He said he heard three shots and that the entire shooting sequence took =

less than five seconds...

After making these statements above , to the FBI on March 25/64 Wilson =

was visited repeatedly by the FBI ."I couldn't get any work done.They =

were always there ."......he said. He refused to change his statement =

and was not called as a WC..witness. ."JFK Assassination" Benson.

5: Hopson: Mrs.Alvin ( Mary Madeline)..Employee : was looking out of a =

fourth floor window on the South side of the Depository,( the window =

would not open.).. facing on Elm Street, during the assassination. =

Although she was never called by the WC, she was questioned by the FBI,

which reported:

"She stated that it did not sound to her like the sounds were coming

from her building ....She stated she thought they had been set off on

the street below, and she saw people on the street running toward the

underpass and the railroad tracks." ... VOL; XX1V, 521.

6: Davis: Mrs.Charles Thomas ( Avery): (Steps).....was standing on the

steps of the Depository, where she worked, when she heard "three

explosions".

She told the FBI, "I did not know from which direction the shots had

come, but thought they were from the direction of the viaduct which

crosses Elm Street West from where I was standing." ..VOL; XX11, 642.

7: Garner: Dorothy Ann .. was watching the motorcade from a fourth floor

window in the Depository when she heard the shots.

She said in an FBI affidavit, "I thought at the time the shots or

reports came from a point to the West of the building." ...VOL; XX11,

648.

8: Kounas: Mrs.George Andrew (Dolores Arlene). was outside the

Depository, her place of employment,standing near South West corner..

when she heard gunfire. She told the FBI:

"Although I was across the street from the Depository building and was

looking in the direction of the building as the motorcade passed and

following the shots. I did not look up at the building as I had thought

the shots came from a westerly direction in the vicinity of the

viaduct."... VOL; XX11, 659.

9: Williams;Otis Neville,(Steps):.. Book Depository's credit manager,

who was standing on the steps of the building when the assassination

occurred. told the FBI that he heard.

" three loud blasts" and that " I thought these blasts or shots came

from the direction of the viaduct which crosses Elm Street." VOL; XX11,

683.

10: Adams;Victoria Elizabeth ..was watching from a pair of windows on

the fourth floor of the Book Depository, where she worked. The alleged

assassin's window was two floors above her and to her left : The Grassy

Knoll was below and to her right.

Testifying about the source of the shots, she said.=20

"....It seemed as if it came from the right below, rather than from the

left above..".VOL; VI, 338.

11: Billy Lovelady: (Steps):...an employee of the Depository,( had been

assigned to lay plywood flooring on the sixth floor that

day.."Crossfire"..Marrs)....who at the time of the assassination was

standing on the steps at the entrance to the building, was questioned by

the Commission Counsel Joseph Ball:

Ball:.."Where was the direction of the sound?"

Lovelady:.."Right there areound that concrete little deal on that

knoll..."

Ball:..."How did you happen to go down there.?"

Lovelady..."because everybody was running...toward that way: everybody

thought it was coming from that direction."...VOL: V1,338-9.

Lovelady told the FBI, " I did not at any time believe the shots had

come from the Texas School Depository Building." ..VOL:XX11, 662.

12: Arce; Danny Garcia ...Employee..part of floor laying crew..who was

standing in front of the Depository, near Truly and Campbell.where he

worked, he testified:=20

"I thought (the shots) came from the railroad tracks to the West of the

Texas School Depository ."..VOL:V!, 365.

13: Frazier; Buell Wesley ( Steps):...the Depository employee who had

driven Oswald to work that morning, was standing on the steps of the

Depository building. He testified:

"Well to be frank with you I thought it came from down there, you know,

where that underpass is. There is a series, quite a few number, of them

railroad tracks running together and from where I was standing it

sounded like it was coming from down the railroad tracks there"..VOL:11,

234.

14: Molina: Joseph Rodriquez: ( Steps) :...was standing on the steps of

the Depository building. He was interviewed by the Commission:

Ball:..."Where---what was the source of this sound.?"

Molina:..."sort of kind of came from the West side.....I didn't want to

think what was happening ....but I wanted to find out so I went down

there to where the grassy slope is..."...VOL:V1, 371-2.

15: Baker: Mrs.Donald , "Virgie" (nee Rachley)..TSBD bookeeper... who

had been standing at the South-Western corner of the Depository----at

the end of the building nearest the Grassy Knoll---testified that she

heard shots after the President's car passed the building.

Liebeler:.."Did you have any idea where they were coming from?."

Mrs.Baker.." Well, the way it sounded...there was a railroad track that

runs behind the building...so I guess it would be by the underpass....as

well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza.."

Liebeler:.."And you say there are some railroad tracks back in

there....immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street....and is

that where you thought the shots came from.?"

Mrs.Baker: "Yes."...VOL;.V11, 510-1

16: Jarman James Jr:."Junior"..a Depository employee, ( floor laying

crew) was on the fifth floor of the building ( one floor below the

"snipers nest") watching the motorcade from the Southeast windows.(

Photos of the Depository taken seconds after the shooting show Jarman's

two friends looking out the windows, but Jarman is nowhere to be

seen.)..

He thought the shots came from below, near the motorcade..VOL:111, 204.

Jarman was standing with two other employees, Bonnie Ray Williams and

Harold Norman, both of whom testified that they heard shots from above

them. Upon hearing the shots however, the immediate reaction of all

three men was to run to the West side of the building, not upstairs.

"We saw the policeman and people running....There are some tracks on the

West side of the building, railroad tracks. They were running towards

that way and so we all ran that way."...VOL:111, 175.

17: Bonnie Ray Williams:..(floor laying crew ) was later questioned by

Commissioner Gerald Ford:

Ford:.." Why didn't you go up to the sixth floor ?".

Williams: "I really don't know. We just never did think about

it."..VOL:.III, 177.

**************************

Also: Information from "The Assassinations: Dallas and Beyond."

Scott:Hoch:& Stetler..

**************************

"Many Depository employees went outside to view the motorcade. Most of

them signed reports to the FBI during March 1964..Oddly, the reports all

begin to sound alike in that the agents apparently never asked critical

questions such as "Where did the shots come from?"..."How many

shots?"...or "Did you see the effect of any shot?'...

As the evidence quickly piled up against Oswald and the Depository

became the center of the investigation, the authorities, news media, and

public soon forgot the initial focus of attention in Dealey Plaza---the

Triple Underpass..(area)..."Crossfire" Jim Marrs..

******************************

FLOOR LAYING CREW:

On the day of the assassination ,six employees of the TSBD were laying a

new tile floor. According to witness Bonnie Ray Williams , the crew

consisted of himself: Billy Lovelady, Harold Norman, Charles Givens,

William Shelley, and Danny Arce.

"The Assassination"..Benson..p 85..

*****************************

MISSING FROM ROLL CALL AT THE TSBD..

Jack Charles Cason - President of School Book

Depositary - left the building at 12:10 p.m. and went home. (VOL:22:P =

640)

Gloria Jean Holt - clerk at TSBD - did not return after shooting.

(VOL:19:P.526) (VOL:22:P.652)

Sharon Simmons Nelson, Secretary, (VOL:19:P.256;VOL: 22-P.665) did not

return.

Bonnie Richey, Secretary, (VOL22:P.671) did not return.

Carolyn Arnold (VOL:22:P.635) did not return.

Mrs. Donald Baker, Clerk, did not return (VOL:22:P.635)

Judy Marie Johnson (VOL22:P.256) did not return.

Mrs. Stella Mae Jacob (VOL:22:P.665) did not return.

Charles Givens did not come back.

Virginia H. Brnum - McGraw-Hill employee does not return (VOL:22:P.636)

Vida Lee Whatley, Clerk, does not return.(VOL:22:P.680)

Warren Caster (VOL;22:P.641;VOL 26:P.738) eating lunch in Denton.

Spauldin "Pud" Jones (VOL:22:P.658) eating lunch at Blue Front with

Herbert

Junker (another McMillan employee) (22:659)

Mrs. Helen Palmer, clerk, (VOL:22:P.666) not present was at Love Field.

Franklin Kaiser - was absent from work on 11/22.(VOL:6:P.342),

(VOL:23:P.751)=20

Vicki Davis, employee, was absent.

Dottie Lovelady, employee, was absent.

Mrs. Rudell Parsons, employee, was absent.

Joe Bergen, Scott Foresman, absent.

Maury Brown, McGraw-Hill, absent.

John Langston, absent.

Now how did Truly take an accurate roll call?

People on floors:

7th - 0=20

6th - 1=20

5th - 4=20

4th - 8=20

3rd - 4=20

2nd - 2=20

1st - 3

Martha Moyer.

*************************

FINGERPRINTS TAKEN OF EMPLOYEES TSBD.

FBI : June 15..1964.

Daniel Garcia Arce..................Roy Nolan Lovelady

Jack Edwin Dougherty............Eddie Piper

Buell Wesley Frazier...............William Hoyt Shelley

Charles Douglas Given............Troy Eugene West

James Earl Jarman Jr...............Bonnie Ray Williams

Frankie Kaiser.........................Roy Edward Lewis

WC: VOL: XXIV...P.7

*************************

b

Bell moved getting down from the wall, and stood at this end of the

peristyle,

here is the Bell

photo of the TSBD, entranceway.

.This is what he filmed, from a distance away..the entranceway from Trask's

information on the Bell film.."POTP"..I have not come across much, and that is another reason which does make

people curious..From Gary Shaws "Cover-Up" 76 & 92... page 41.."Lovelady likewise told independant researcher Jones Harris ( who

specialzes

in photographic aspects of the President's murder) that on Nov.22 he was wearing a red and white striped shirt buttoned near the neck.WC XXII H

794.***************WXXII page 794.. Hearings=20New York Herald Tribune...Article May 24/64.. "Ten days ago, still brooding over the picture Jones Harris flew to Dallas, met with Lovelady and talked to him for about quarter of and

hour. Lovelady told him yes, it was he standing in the doorway..

Lovelady also told him that the FBI has taken several pictires of him ,

presumably to compare with the AP picture of the assassination scene.

Lovelady also said that on November 22 he was wearing a red -and-white

striped sports shirt buttoned near the neck.."..

http://history-matte...Vol22_0412b.htm

B..

Ron,

Isn't it important to know for sure who is in the doorway since if it is =

Oswald the WC case falls apart? Why would we question the integrity of =

anyone that is trying to make sure we know, including how Groden arrived =

at his conclusions? In this thread none of us knew the details. Now we =

know alot more. But Groden doesn't have the best track record so why =

should we take his word for it if we haven't actually seen what he

claims to have produced with his method.I talked to David Wrone last night for a few minutes and he is adamant

that LHO is in the doorway. He said he and Weisberg used a jeweller's

loop to magnify Altgens. He is convinced that after examining the shirt =

in the archives, in Altgens and the DPD they are the same. He doesn't =

believe LHO changed shirts at his rooming house.Wrone said Hal Verb is in the process of talking to all the people in =

the Martin/Hughes frames to clarify who saw who in the doorway. He =

thinks LHO popped into the doorway from the 1st floor just as the =

motorcade had passed (Altgens) and then immediately went up to the 2nd. =

He says he doesn't think Lovelady could have gotten into the doorway =

from his sitting positon while eating because of the way witnesses =

describe the time frame. He thinks Lovelady had one second to get into =

the doorway and that wasn't physically possible. Of course he also =

mentioned Lovelady's descrepant testimony about where he went in the =

minute after the assass........G.

http://www.jfkresearch.com/forum/i

All Wrone has in the book is the Altgen's photo, John Martin's Lovelady photo and Robert Richter's (FBI) posed Lovelady photo. It is Wrone's 8 pg. detailed desc. of the discovery of LHO's shirt in the doorway matching the shirt he wears during interogation. Wrone uses a first generation Altgen's photo and then magnifies it right down to the stretched buttonholes which prevent it from being buttoned all the way up. I can't type fast enough to get it all to you Jack, at least not tonight. If Ron or someone can scan in the 8 pgs. I think you will be impressed even with whatever else we may disagree with Wrone about. He draws heavily on H. Weisburgs research also. When I asked a couple of weeks back if we could say the Altgen's photo was maybe the most important single picture taken of the assassination I was thinking of the Daltex shooter, LHO in the doorway and the hole in the windshield all being seen in the photo.

Here is some information on Lovelady in an old post, by Dr.J.J...

FYI...

Lovelady's Long Sleeve Shirt

The Loveladys had fled Dallas to escape harassment. They had received letters and phone calls from every state in the union and from foreign countries as well. Billy went into the trucking business in Denver, Colorado. The Loveladys were living in Denver in 1976 when the House Select Committee on Assassinations began their investigation. The HSCA sent Robert Groden to interview Billy Lovelady and to take photographs of him wearing the long sleeve shirt that is allegedly the one seen in the Altgens photograph. The Loveladys had purchased the shirt for 59 cents at a Salvation Army flea market; Conversation with Gary Mack at Sixth Floor Museum office 8/29/96 years later Patricia Lovelady would telephone author/researcher Harlold Weisberg and try to sell him the shirt for $5,000. Letter to author from Mr. Weisberg, 5/14/94 Billy Lovelady died on Sunday, January 14, 1979 of an apparent heart attack. Although he was only 41 years old, natural causes were presumed likely and his death prompted no autopsy. . "Oswald look-alike, 41, dies," Dallas Times Herald, 1-18-79, p. 1-B

When James Altgens delivered copies of his famous photo to Mrs. Lovelady, he asked her why they were being so secretive. She said, "Well, I'll tell you, we've been run out of so many places where we have lived, and it's because of that shirt he was wearing. At this time, I've got it locked up here in the safe at Houghton Mifflin Publishing Company. People break into our home looking for that shirt. We have moved to about five different places, and they find us every time." No More Silence, p. 47

Billy Lovelady had originally stated to the FBI that he was wearing a short sleeve shirt with red and white vertical stripes, buttoned to the neck. He later claimed to be wearing the shirt in this photograph, a shirt with a block pattern as bold as the pattern formed by the brick wall in the background. Robert Groden claims that he can see the large block pattern of Lovelady's shirt in the Altgens photo of the man in the doorway, although the image is too faint to be transferred to paper. Groden once believed that it was Oswald in the doorway, but he now is convinced that it is Lovelady. Note that this shirt is apparently constructed of a heavier material than Oswald's, and does not hang open loosely. Note also that the shirt does not have a pocket.

Does Billy Lovelady really resemble Oswald that much? One FBI report states:

Mr. Lovelady stated his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald has become somewhat embarrassing. He stated his stepchildren, Timmy Ekstedt, age 6, and step-daughter, Angela Ekstedt, age 4, were watching television shortly after the assassination at a time when Lee Harvey Oswald was shown while in custody of the Dallas Police Department and both of these children remarked that they thought their daddy was on television referring to his close resemblance to Lee Harvey Oswald.

It is alleged that Oswald and Lovelady could be confused by people who were not acquainted with the pair. One newspaper reported:

Yet ironically, there are arguments both ways by those who knew them both well. Once Pat [Patricia Lovelady] went to the depository to see her husband and she saw Oswald standing with his back toward her. She called her husband's name.

"Oswald turned around and I saw it wasn't Billy.

"He told me he thought I had the wrong man but he knew who I wanted. He went and got Billy.

"Our children were very young then, and they showed Oswald's picture on television. They pointed to him and said, 'There's Daddy'."

On the other hand, Billy tells the story of the day Oswald's mother visited the depository.

"It was during the Jack Ruby trial and she was in Dallas. She announced she was going to the depository to see the young man who claimed to be the one standing in the doorway. I was standing at the counter when she came in. She asked me where the young man was and I told her he didn't come to work that day. She turned and walked away." "Oswald look-alike, 41, dies," Dallas Times Herald, 1-18-79..

B........

It is in the HSCA...Appendix to Hearings ..Vol: V1 ...page 298

there is further info and photographs within the pages..

Now it says page 292...but that is an error, it is on page 298..also in this

Volume 6..is the comparison of the backyard photos, the rifle, many photos

and the info...Milteer, and other interesting information.

http://history-matte..._Vol6_0149b.htm

B

Dr.J.J. is John Johnson..he did much work on the LHO Lovelady doorway research and has some articles archived on the Mary Ferrell site..

Edited January 31, 2012 by Bernice Moore

[Richard Hocking]

Many thanks to Pat Speer, James Fetzer. Thomas Graves and Bernice Moore for your replies and help.

I am going to try and assimilate all this and see if it helps me to clear up some questions about the people at the front entrance.

[Robin Unger]

Many thanks to Pat Speer, James Fetzer. Thomas Graves and Bernice Moore for your replies and help.

I am going to try and assimilate all this and see if it helps me to clear up some questions about the people at the front entrance.

Hi Richard.

The identification of the spectators seen in weigman standing in front of the TSBD are not positively known to me.

I could take a guess, but i would rather find out the correct names,

Robin.

film frame showing Stetson man appearing to look up at the TSBD windows.

as officer Baker runs from his Motorcycle to the front entrance.

Excuse the poor quality of the frames provided.

Edited January 31, 2012 by Robin Unger

[Robin Unger]

Here is your image Jim

There is also a document t i have seen previously stating that the workmen who replaced the windshield, sat inside the limo, and pushed the glass out using there feet causing the glass to crack.

When i find it i will post it..

[Robin Unger]

Josiah

Once again, thanks for your generous comments.

Jim you say that this page proves that there was a hole in the windshield. ?

Quote:

Well, this is ROBIN UNGER claiming something that I do not believe is true. He is asserting--mistakenly, if

I am correct--that this star-like configuration is the windshield after "being kicked out during the removal

process". Maybe Robin just does not know what he is talking about, but Doug Weldon actually tracked down

the Ford official who was responsible for replacing the windshield, who confirmed that it had a through-and-

through hole in it at the location I have identified in the Altgens

THAT IS NOT HOW I READ IT

It clearly say's that there where cracks but NO PERFORATION.

Perforation

perforation [ˌpɜːfəˈreɪʃən]n1. the act of perforating or the state of being perforated2. a hole or holes made in something

Edited January 31, 2012 by Robin Unger

[William Kelly]

Was the Atkins photo of the Man in the Doorway taken BEFORE the fatal headshot?

Thanks,

BK