Was Oswald an MKULTRA Programmed Patsy?

[Kathleen Collins]

Just to amplify this in light of other people's posts:

I suspect that Oswald was a spy from a family of military-intel spies: John Pic, Robert Oswald.

I wouldn't doubt that attempts were made, and even ongoing conditioning performed, to remake Oswald as a "Manchurian Candidate"-type assassin, or else to make him more suitable for his false-defector role. I do doubt that these efforts worked.

dadvertising the unknown. But that quaver in his voice at midnight, when the reporters tell him he has been charged in Kennedy's murder, opens a different panel. Had he expected to be meeting Raul Castro instead of Henry Wade at that hour?

I would love to hear Dick Russell's take on Nagell's understanding of Oswald, and also Russell's own.

The Manchurian Candidate came out in 1962. Maybe Oswald saw it at the Texas Theater. I feel Oswald was from Russia due to audio tapes of him and his Russian friend. On one tape he even says a variation of the F-word and sounds American.

[Len Colby]

ALL

I have to admit error I stated on two occasions that height finding radar in the late 50s was limited to 10,000 feet. I looked back at my source and found nothing of the sort. I’m not sure where I got that idea from. It turns out as far back as 1952 the US had height finders that had maximum ranges of 75,000 feet and 200 nautical miles. But for other reasons stated I doubt LHO would have know the operating altitude of the U-2.

According to LHO’s OIC when he got back to the US they were experimenting with height finding radar but it only worked to 10,000 feet.

bump

Tommy

I glad someone besides Bill, Patricia and I found this interesting. I have continued researching this question and renewed contact with Gary Powers Jr. I hope to make a new post with my findings and his replies in the next day or so.

[Len Colby]

I renewed my contact with Powers but he is reluctant to be quoted here, I hope to be able to make more substantial post today or tomorrow.

[Mark Wengler]

Oswald saw the U2 take off from the base where he was stationed at. If a person was watching the radar unit and saw the blimbs on the unite. I think a person could tell the clime rate on a aircraft. Like see a blimp at 30,000 ft then the same blimp at 40,000 ft. Take the time it took to fly from 30-40,000 ft a person would have a guess as to the rate of clime the plane had. Which the U2 had an initial climb rate that exceeds 15,000 ft/min, a U-2 takeoff is an impressive sight. The climb rate varies depending on a few things like gross weight, temperature and pressure altitude. That climb rate tapers off, around 25,000 feet.

I would think the Russians would have like to get their hands on that type of info. Also the Russians had been shooting missiles at the U2 before and never hit one. Then Oswald went to Russia and he said he would give info that they would like. On May 1, 1960 Powers was shot down. Powers said that he was flying at the correct attitude when he was hit 70,000ft.

[Len Colby]

Oswald saw the U2 take off from the base where he was stationed at.

Do you have a source for this claim?

If a person was watching the radar unit and saw the blimbs on the unite. I think a person could tell the clime rate on a aircraft. Like see a blimp at 30,000 ft then the same blimp at 40,000 ft. Take the time it took to fly from 30-40,000 ft a person would have a guess as to the rate of clime the plane had.

Do you think he saw it take off or that he tracked it on radar? In the later case do you have evidence he was using height finding radar?

Which the U2 had an initial climb rate that exceeds 15,000 ft/min, a U-2 takeoff is an impressive sight. The climb rate varies depending on a few things like gross weight, temperature and pressure altitude. That climb rate tapers off, around 25,000 feet.

I would think the Russians would have like to get their hands on that type of info. Also the Russians had been shooting missiles at the U2 before and never hit one. Then Oswald went to Russia and he said he would give info that they would like. On May 1, 1960 Powers was shot down. Powers said that he was flying at the correct attitude when he was hit 70,000ft.

As I pointed out previously there were 3 USSR overflight after LHO defected but before Powers was shot down. In any case the Russians seem to have known the U-2 altitude since at least 1957. I wrote a long e-mail to Powers' son with a good deal of research in it. But since he is reluctant to quoted and has sent me new info I will have re-edit it before posting it here.

[Kathleen Collins]

I have to admit error.

That's a good boy.

Kathy C

[Mark Wengler]

Here is some books that talk about this WR pp 683-84

Operation Overflight pp 23, 68, 357,

XIX WC,pp 658,662;

Hunt Reasonable Doubt pp 195-196

Legend, Epstein p 53-56

Also look at the testimony of Lt John E.Donovan on what info Oswald had while at El Toro Ca WR Volume VIII

He had the access to the location of all bases in the west coast area, all radio frequencies for all squadrons, all tactical call signs, and the relative strength of all squadrons, number and type of aircraft in a squadron, who was the commanding officer, the authentication code of entering and exiting the ADIZ, which stands for Air Defense Identification Zone. He knew the range of our radar. He knew the range of our radio. And he knew the range of the surrounding units' radio and radar.

I think the Russians would have like to get their hands on that info

john

[Ray Mitcham]

In the late fifties, we, in the R.A.F had access, as fighter radar controllers, to both height and distance radar side by side so there would have been no problem for Oswald, as a radar operator, to know the climb rates of the U2.

[Len Colby]

In the late fifties, we, in the R.A.F had access, as fighter radar controllers, to both height and distance radar side by side so there would have been no problem for Oswald, as a radar operator, to know the climb rates of the U2.

Thanks for your input Ray, according to Gary Powers (Sr.) Atsugi had height finding radar at the time. The question that remains is was he on duty when any u-2 took off or landed. There were only 3 U-2 flights during the period when he was on radar duty all of which came after he was court martialed so I doubt he would have been on duty at the specific time of those flights.

[Len Colby]

Here is some books that talk about this WR pp 683-84

Operation Overflight pp 23, 68, 357,

XIX WC,pp 658,662;

Hunt Reasonable Doubt pp 195-196

Legend, Epstein p 53-56

Also look at the testimony of Lt John E.Donovan on what info Oswald had while at El Toro Ca WR Volume VIII

I found no mention of the U-2 in any of the cited parts of the WR nor in Donovan’s testimony, in Operation Overflight Powers and his co-author only said that Atsugi had height finding radar when LHO was stationed there. I don’t have access to the Epstein or Hurt (not Hunt) books can you cite the passages of them that say LHO tracked any of the U-2 flights out of Atsugi when he was there?

PS why did you sign your post 'John' if your name is Mark?

[Mark Wengler]

The Person who said that Oswald had an interest in the U2 Was Lt Donovan. He was also with Oswald at Atsugi

Epstein talk with many former marines that was with Oswald in Far East one was named Joseph Macedo was on Oswald's radar. He said that Oswald was familiar with the U2 as the rest of the crew.

The others saw the U2 take off and land.

Here is the paragraph in Epstein's book.

One marine inside the bubble seemed to go about his work with a good deal of silent efficiency. He was gaunt with sparkling eyes and a smile that was often taken for a contemptuous smirk. Like the others he heard the radio calls from Race Car and according to one officer showed an extraordinary in the path of the ghostly plane. That Marine was Lee Harvey Oswald

As for John that was mistake in typeing

[Len Colby]

The Person who said that Oswald had an interest in the U2 Was Lt Donovan.

When did he say that? He made no mention of it during his WC testimony

He was also with Oswald at Atsugi

Not according to his WC testimony, do you think he perjured himself?

Epstein talk with many former marines that was with Oswald in Far East one was named Joseph Macedo was on Oswald's radar. He said that Oswald was familiar with the U2 as the rest of the crew.

The others saw the U2 take off and land.

Just watching it “take off and land” would not let him know the plane’s maximum altitiude.

Here is the paragraph in Epstein's book.

One marine inside the bubble seemed to go about his work with a good deal of silent efficiency. He was gaunt with sparkling eyes and a smile that was often taken for a contemptuous smirk. Like the others he heard the radio calls from Race Car and according to one officer showed an extraordinary [interest] in the path of the ghostly plane. That Marine was Lee Harvey Oswald

So all we have is a vague paraphrasing of a single source, did Epstein identify the officer? He didn't even say explicitly that he followed to or from its maximum altitude. The radio calls wouldn't tell anyone much the pilots only used the radio when they were close to take off and landing.

I was able to read part of the page on Google Books, Epstein made one statement that was both false and misleading:

“…the U-2s, which used Atsugi as one of their two main bases, were providing no less than 90 percent of all hard information on Soviet military, ballistic and nuclear bomb activities.”

The reality was that there were three units at the time and the Japanese was seems to have been the least active. Detachment A was based in West Germany and flew the lion share of Russian and East European over flights. Detachment B was originally based in Turkey then moved to Pakistan, they flew over the Middle East and after they relocated “flew deep into the Soviet Union nine times”. There only seems to have been one Russian over flight of Atsugi (Detachment C) the rest were over China and other East Asian countries.

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp

[Len Colby]

Here's most of the text of an e-mail I sent Gary Powers Jr., I edited out comments he made to me because he is reluctant to be quoted here. Part of it repeats things I've already posted but I left them in to maintain coherence:

According to a former Marine intelligence officer who served in MCAS -1 Atsugi shortly before Oswald and spent 27 years researching supposed assassin’s service in Japan:

“Members of MACS-1, including Oswald, did not control the U-2 Aircraft in Atsugi. Control of these aircraft rested with the personnel of the U-2 Program. Security was handled by their members and the unit was commanded by an Air Force Colonel. The U-2’s checked with MACS-1 before take-offs and reported an Estimated Time of Arrival. Once airborne, there was radio silence. Members of MAG-11 provided flight line security and crash crew rescue teams.” [1]

Even if we don’t believe him there were only four U-2 flights out of Atsugi when LHO was there. They occurred on June 18, August 20, Sept. 9 and Oct. 22 1958. All were over China rather than the USSR [2]. The last occurred after he had been “transferred out of MACS-1 and put on general duty, in anticipation of his return to the United States”. The 2nd and 3rd happened after he’d served almost 2 months hard labor following his 2nd court-martial in less than a year. The first was only 2 months after his 1st court martial [3]. There were 100 men in his unit [3], even if we discount the claim his unit did not control U-2s, the odds that LHO tacked any is pretty small. Did you or your dad find any evidence actually Oswald tracked any of the U-2 flights with height finding radar? Your dad did not mention this in his book [4].

Based on the sources I looked at it seems the Soviets already knew how high the plane flew years before your dad was shot down. An article on your site mentioned the 2nd ever over flight of the USSR in July 1956, “An early warning radar for the system at Smolensk had detected Vito’s approach and estimated the altitude at 65,000 feet. Soviet air defence experts discounted the radar operators’ claims - no aircraft could fly that high, they judged!” [5] So if they doubted their own radar operators why would they believe a putz like Oswald? But they had 21 more chances (over flights) to figure the plane’s height [2]. And soon Soviet plane were flying at such altitudes. According to a book length CIA paper “The CIA and the U-2 program, 1954-1974” by 1957 the ‘Mandrake’ a reconnaissance version of the YAK-25 had “an operating altitude of 55,000 – 65,000”. According to the authors:

"Beginning in late 1957 the Soviets used Mandrakes as high-altitude practice targets for MiG-19 and MiG-21 interceptors. The Soviet intercept technique that most concerned U-2 pilots was the "snap up" or power dive and zoom climb. In this maneuver, ground-based radar operators would direct the interceptor aircraft along the same flight path as the U-2 When the MiG pilot achieved the same compass heading as the U-2, which was flying more than 10000 feet above him, he would put his aircraft into a shallow dive to pick up speed, apply full throttle to the engine, then pull back on the stick and zoom as high as he could. In this manner the Soviet pilot hoped to come up directly the U-2 so he could use his guns and missiles against the shiny U-2 etched in silver against the dark blue-black of space. Using this maneuver, some MiGs were able to climb as high as the U-2 but seldom got very close. At this height the MiGs were completely out of control...[6]"

According to the previously cited coldwar.org article a March 1958 over flight “was detected and intercepted by MiG fighters that came uncomfortably close” [5], I would presume this was a case of a MiG 19 or 21 that had executed a snap up.

So I don’t think the Russians need an American traitor to shoot down your father’s plane. But if they depended on one there is another candidate. In June 1963 Army Sgt. Jack Edward Dunlap, who had worked the NSA since 1958 [7], committed suicide. It turned out that he had been selling highly classified NSA and CIA documents to the Soviets since “on OR BEFORE June 1960” for the then very high sum of “between $30,000 and $40,000” [7]. According to a 1966 FBI memo:

"An extremely sensitive source who has furnished reliable information in the past…stated that Dunlap gave the Soviets important information regarding the U-2 flights over the USSR and that Dunlap's information provided the Soviet Union with the capability of shooting down the Powers U-2 aircraft...as a result of Dunlap's information, the Soviets were well aware of when the U-2 planes crossed over the Soviet Union. The Soviets always had their anti-aircraft guns trained on those planes." [8]

The source codenamed Top Hat (or Tophat) by the FBI [9] turned out to be Dmitri Fedorovich Polyakov, a Lt. Coronel working with the GRU at the time, who eventually rose to become a Lieutenant General and commander of the Soviet Army Air Defense Command. CIA director James Woolsey said "Polyakov was the jewel in the crown". Sandy Grimes the CIA’s Soviet expert who first suspected Aldrich Ames also described him as “our crown jewel” and said he was:

“…the best source at least to my knowledge that American intelligence has ever had and I would submit, although I certainly can't be certain, but the best source that any intelligence service has ever had” [10]

Len

Sources:

1] The Book - The Missing Chapter

http://themissingchapter.com/leeharveyoswald1.html

2] U-2 Overflights of the Soviet Union and China

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

3] Report of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy - Appendix 13: Biography of Lee Harvey Oswald – Marines:

http://www.archives.gov/research/jfk/warren-commission-report/appendix-13.html#marines

4] Operation Overflight: a memoir of the U-2 Incident

http://books.google.com/books?id=3xmedlblseuc&pg=pa304&lpg=pa304

5] The Early U-2 Overflights of the Soviet Union

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp

6] The CIA and the U-2 program, 1954-1974

http://books.google.com.br/books?id=u883zM7_QYMC&pg=PA148

7] Cold War Counterintelligence – Chapter 1

http://www.fas.org/irp/ops/ci/docs/ci3/ch1.pdf

8] 1966 FBI memo about Dunlap

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=17036&relPageId=5

9] Church Committee document identifying source as Top Hat

http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=138324&relPageId=5

10] Dmitri Polyakov

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dmitri_Polyakov

Edited February 11, 2012 by Len Colby

[Len Colby]

In the late fifties, we, in the R.A.F had access, as fighter radar controllers, to both height and distance radar side by side so there would have been no problem for Oswald, as a radar operator, to know the climb rates of the U2.

Ray,

Pure speculation here on my part but do you think it would have been possible to turn off/block/disable the height finding feature of the radar when the U-2s took off and landed? Since the operating altitude was a closely guarded secret at first I imagine they would take steps to limit as much as possible how many people knew this.

[Mark Wengler]

The Person who said that Oswald had an interest in the U2 Was Lt Donovan.

When did he say that? He made no mention of it during his WC testimony

Epestein say which marine said that

He was also with Oswald at Atsugi

Not according to his WC testimony, do you think he perjured himself?

On that i have no idea if he did or did not.

Epstein talk with many former marines that was with Oswald in Far East one was named Joseph Macedo was on Oswald's radar. He said that Oswald was familiar with the U2 as the rest of the crew.

The others saw the U2 take off and land.

Just watching it “take off and land” would not let him know the plane’s maximum altitiude.

Here is the paragraph in Epstein's book.

One marine inside the bubble seemed to go about his work with a good deal of silent efficiency. He was gaunt with sparkling eyes and a smile that was often taken for a contemptuous smirk. Like the others he heard the radio calls from Race Car and according to one officer showed an extraordinary [interest] in the path of the ghostly plane. That Marine was Lee Harvey Oswald

Maybe Epstein in his notes says who told him that.

So all we have is a vague paraphrasing of a single source, did Epstein identify the officer? He didn't even say explicitly that he followed to or from its maximum altitude. The radio calls wouldn't tell anyone much the pilots only used the radio when they were close to take off and landing.

I was able to read part of the page on Google Books, Epstein made one statement that was both false and misleading:

“…the U-2s, which used Atsugi as one of their two main bases, were providing no less than 90 percent of all hard information on Soviet military, ballistic and nuclear bomb activities.”

The reality was that there were three units at the time and the Japanese was seems to have been the least active. Detachment A was based in West Germany and flew the lion share of Russian and East European over flights. Detachment B was originally based in Turkey then moved to Pakistan, they flew over the Middle East and after they relocated “flew deep into the Soviet Union nine times”. There only seems to have been one Russian over flight of Atsugi (Detachment C) the rest were over China and other East Asian countries.

http://www.blackbirds.net/u2/u2overflights.html

http://www.coldwar.org/articles/50s/early_u2.asp