Allen Dulles: I think we'd better not get in to that ehhh, area you know!

[Guest Duncan MacRae]

Why Not?

Edited February 19, 2013 by Duncan MacRae

[Ian Kingsbury]

Nice to see you active again Duncan.

Ian

[Guest Robert Morrow]

Fabulous find. Does anyone know the exact date Allen Dulles said that? I am sure it was sometime in 1964 when the Warren Commission went to Dallas. Probably early in spring, 1964 (a guess).

James Angleton, who literally carried the ashes of Allen Dulles at his funeral:

“Fundamentally, the founding fathers of U.S. intelligence were liars. The better you lied and the more you betrayed, the more likely you would be promoted. These people attracted and promoted each other. Outside of their duplicity, the o­nly thing they had in common was a desire for absolute power. I did things that, in looking back o­n my life, I regret. But I was part of it and I loved being in it. . . Allen Dulles, Richard Helms, Carmel Offie, and Frank Wisner were the grand masters. If you were in a room with them you were in a room full of people that you had to believe would deservedly end up in hell.” Angleton slowly sipped his tea and then said, “I guess I will see them there, soon.”

----JAMES ANGLETON, C.I.A. Counter Intelligence-Chief, 1985

ALLEN DULLES QUOTE: "That little Kennedy ... he thought he was a God." [JFK and the Unspeakable, p. 16]

Edited February 19, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Guest Robert Morrow]

A few quick points. Lyndon Johnson: "As for the makeup of the rest of the commission, I appointed the two men Bobby Kennedy asked me to put on it - Allen Dulles and John McCloy - immediately."

Robert Caro in "Passage of Power" uses Lyndon Johnson's comments after Robert Kennedy was dead as a source for how Allen Dulles & John McCloy got on the Warren Commission. Jim DiEugenio told me that when saw Caro use that as a source (and nothing else), he wanted to urinate on Caro's book. My sentiments exactly. LBJ was a pathologial xxxx that he can't be trusted as a sole source on anything ... especially relating to the JFK assassination.

Then there is this nugget from 1963 which shows the close personal ties between John J. McCloy and Clint Murchison, Sr.: "That summer, McCloy relaxed more than he had for many years. He hunted whitewings with Clint Murchison on the Texas oil man's Mexico farm." [Kai Bird, The Chairman, p. 542]

That is the SAME John McCloy who Lyndon Johnson appoints to the Warren Commission on 11/29/63 later in that year.

Here is another nugget on Clint Murchison. The Murchison family maid May Newman describes the scene immediately after the JFK assassination:

“The mood in the Murchison family home was very joyous and happy. For a whole week after like champagne and caviar flowed, every day of the week. But I was the only one in that household at that time that felt any grief for his assassination."

May Newman later became a family maid for Ted Gunderson. A side note to a side note: David Lifton knew Ted Gunderson well.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[Paul Brancato]

There attitude is so telling. They are lying - every word, and so clearly unmoved and cavalier. Thanks for the reminder.

[Andric Perez]

Maybe Dulles was simply pretending that it was better to wait until the Warren Commission released its final report before stating how many people were involved in the assassination.

[Gary Murr]

In answer to the question posed by Robert Morrow: The Allen Dulles interview comments were spoken and taped in Dealey Plaza by the local WFAA TV station on Saturday, May 8, 1964. I have an entire chapter on this particular weekend visit by a select group of Warren Commission members in Volume 2 of my three volume trilogy on the wounding of Governor John Connally. Volume's 1 and 2 are complete and are currently at the printer, and all three volumes will be available to interested parties later this year. FWIW

Gary Murr

[Gary Murr]

To Robert Morrow et al: A minor correction to my previous post detailing the date of the Dulles Dealey Plaza interview. Gary Mack was kind enough to point out that I had mis-identified the TV affiliate who filmed this Dulles interview; it was the NBC affiliate, WBAP, not WFAA who was responsible for this piece of film. I thank Gary for showing me the error of my ways!!

[Guest Robert Morrow]

As good as that find is, and it is quite good, I still think the McCLoy one is better, the interview with Cronkite. Which is also on Duncan's site. And you can see right after this one.

We should definitely play both for the 50th.

Cronkite actually had the guts to ask McCloy a very pertinent question: Was the WC a "get Oswald" operation form the start? In other words, did Oswald get a fair hearing?

McCloy says he will answer that question. But he never does.

He could have disposed of it by saying, well, we did consider other suspects but the evidence did not follow through on them.

He doesn't say that though does he?

And then the lying Wall Street lawyer says that there was no real rush to get the report out. Everyone knows LBj wanted it out before the election.

He then lies again and says that they did not have the photos and x rays of the autopsy. But if you read the executive session hearings, they did. He uses that to try and drag in the Kennedy family.

Two disgusting pigs who were oh so at home with the likes of Nazis Reinhard Gehlen and Josef Mengele. BTW, as is revealed in Kai Bird's bio of McCloy, he helped the orphan murderer Mengele escape to South American and then lied about it when the Ophuls film came out.

From their days in Germany, McCloy and Dulles had munificent experience in covering up for murderers.

Here is McCloy being interviewed by Walter Cronkite:

Look at how much McCloy is fidgeting! Constantly playing with his glasses, looking down, starts off with a disclaimer saying he probably should not even be talking (my paraphrase). Fidget, fidget, fidget. McCloy looks as "nervous as a pregnant nun" and as "jittery as cat on a hot tin roof" as my Alabama kin folk would say.

What was the date of this interview? Btw McCloy's daughter worked for a high level executive at CBS News.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Robert Morrow

[David Von Pein]

If McCloy, like Linus and his blanket, started grabbing his glasses compulsively when asked a very simple and obvious question by Uncle Walter, can you imagine what would have happened if he had been cross examined by say Richard Sprague or Bob Tanenbaum?

Here we have a conspiracy theorist making more mountains out of more tiny molehills (yet again).

So McCloy was fidgeting with his eyeglasses. Oh boy! That must mean he's a xxxx! Horse manure.

CTers see conspiracy everywhere. Even in John McCloy's glasses.

BTW, the McCloy interview was done in 1967, and aired in June of '67 in Part 4 of "A CBS News Inquiry: The Warren Report", an excellent re-examination of the JFK case by CBS News, featuring many very good interviews and observations, including THIS re-creation of the backyard photos, which debunks one more conspiracy theory about those pictures (the "funny shadows" theory).

Edited February 21, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Guest Robert Morrow]

In answer to the question posed by Robert Morrow: The Allen Dulles interview comments were spoken and taped in Dealey Plaza by the local WFAA TV station on Saturday, May 8, 1964. I have an entire chapter on this particular weekend visit by a select group of Warren Commission members in Volume 2 of my three volume trilogy on the wounding of Governor John Connally. Volume's 1 and 2 are complete and are currently at the printer, and all three volumes will be available to interested parties later this year. FWIW

Gary Murr

Gary, please let folks know where they can order your books and what other books you have written in the past. I found this Amazon link to your 1971 book on Tippit: http://www.amazon.com/Murder-Dallas-Police-Officer-Tippit/dp/B004QWAWW4/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1361415835&sr=8-2&keywords=gary+murr

"The Murder of Dallas Police Officer J. D. Tippit"

[James R Gordon]


.

I have an entire chapter on this particular weekend visit by a select group of Warren Commission members in Volume 2 of my three volume trilogy on the wounding of Governor John Connally. Volume's 1 and 2 are complete and are currently at the printer, and all three volumes will be available to interested parties later this year. FWIW

 Gary Murr


I see Gary Murr has made public that he will shortly publish his book. If I may I would like to say a few words about it for forum members.

Some time ago Gary was extraordinarily kind to me by allowing me access to a substantial portion of his research, including his forthcoming book.

I still remember very vividly the moment I looked over his appendix [ that was the very first item I received – not the book just the appendix items ] for volume 1. Gobsmacked would not even begin to describe my reaction to what I saw. I remember e-mailing him and telling him that it would be a crime were he not to publish this work.

The focus of the trilogy is the wounding of John Connally. I vividly remember thinking, “how on earth can someone write three volumes on John Connally.” The answer is that although the focal point is John Connally – the overriding arc is the assassination of JFK and how such officialdom such as the Warren Commission and HSCA approach and dealt – or indeed did not deal – with the assassination. But it is not even that, it is the extraordinary and meticulous research. How someone had the time and made the effort to track down all the leads and evidence that incorporates this work, I find still to be an absolute wonder. If for no other reason, the book is worth having just to see how someone could pull together so many strands of evidence and illuminate them with an incredible clarity of mind.

At times when I have despaired at the problems my project, which is rests in a different universe to his work, Gary has often commented to me that I should remember that he has, after all, been at this for 40 years. Well if you feel this book is worthwhile – and worthwhile understates it in my view – you are getting 40 years of meticulous research. You are getting access to material many researchers are not aware even exists. It is mind blowing the material and evidence Gary has gathered together. I had not been aware that there was a time that the Warren Commission believed that John Connally was wounded at Z 297. There is a fascinating chapter about how that came about, the influence it had to the Commission’s thinking and what eventually forced them to change their opinion.

In my research on when Connally was wounded it was this chapter that inspired me to look at this moment and suddenly see the reasons why I came to believe that Connally was most likely wounded before the head shot. There have been so many times topics have been raised in this forum that I have longed to jump into and comment with what Gary has said in his book, but have restrained myself from doing so.

I am glad Gary has decided to publish this book. I had the feeling, when I first got to know about it, he was ambivalent about the project. In my view, the JFK research community deserves to see in print a book such as this. My work has been improved infinitely by access to Gary’s material, including his book and it is my view that JFK research community will look on the wounding of John Connally and the process by which authorities approached the assassination in a new light after having read this book.

James.

Edited February 21, 2013 by James R Gordon

[Karl Kinaski]

At 56. sec (second video) the reporter asks: Can you say, that you still think, it was one man?

And you can hear John Shermann Cooper mumbling:

I DON'T BELIEVE IT.

Next Dulles covers Coopers murmur with: I think we'd better not get in to that ehhh, area you know!

KK

[David Von Pein]

Karl,

You're misrepresenting Cooper's words in that video. He was about to say something akin to what Dulles says, but Cooper was cut off. Cooper didn't merely say: "I don't believe it" -- he added something AFTER "I don't believe...", which (if allowed to continue) would likely have been something like this: "I don't believe we should get into that subject here" -- which is precisely what Dulles does say.

Do you really think Cooper was involved in some kind of grandiose cover-up operation, and then he just blurted out "I don't believe it" to a reporter with a live microphone?

Or is Cooper one of the "good guys" on the Commission (who wasn't "in" on the cover-up operation)? And Dick Russell too?

[Martin White]

If McCloy, like Linus and his blanket, started grabbing his glasses compulsively when asked a very simple and obvious question by Uncle Walter, can you imagine what would have happened if he had been cross examined by say Richard Sprague or Bob Tanenbaum?

Here we have a conspiracy theorist making more mountains out of more tiny molehills (yet again).

So McCloy was fidgeting with his eyeglasses. Oh boy! That must mean he's a xxxx! Horse manure.

CTers see conspiracy everywhere. Even in John McCloy's glasses.

David, you don't think that lawyers and police officers use analysis of body language and other non-verbal communication when questioning people?