Marrion Baker identified Oswald in a lineup 11/22?

[Sean Murphy]

From a report filed 11/22 by Captain Will Fritz:

[David Von Pein]

That is a strange statement, Sean. Because according to Marrion Baker's own WC testimony, he never saw Oswald in a "lineup". He did see LHO at the police station on 11/22, but it wasn't during an official police lineup.

But we know that the man Baker saw in the lunchroom was positively Lee Oswald due to the confirmation of that fact by Roy S. Truly. Somebody must have written up that report incorrectly about Baker actually IDing LHO in a "lineup".

But such an error certainly doesn't change any of the basic facts pertaining to Marrion Baker--because we KNOW Baker encountered OSWALD in the lunchroom shortly after the asaassination. That fact is not even debatable due to all of Roy Truly's statements and testimony (coupled with Baker's own statements and testimony, plus his affidavit, pictured below).

From Marrion L. Baker's WC session:

Mr. DULLES - You saw Oswald later in the lineup or later...

Mr. BAKER - I never did have a chance to see him in the lineup. I saw him when I went to give the affidavit, the statement that I saw him down there, of the actions of myself and Mr. Truly as we went into the building and on up what we are discussing now.

Mr. DULLES - I didn't get clearly in mind, I am trying to check up, as to whether you saw Oswald maybe in the same costume later in the day. Did you see Oswald later in the day of November 22d?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir; I did.

Mr. DULLES - Under what circumstances? Don't go into detail, I just want to tie up these two situations.

Mr. BAKER - As I was in the homicide office there writing this, giving this affidavit, I got hung in one of those little small offices back there, while the Secret Service took Mr. Oswald in there and questioned him and I couldn't get out by him while they were questioning him, and I did get to see him at that time.

Mr. DULLES - You saw him for a moment at that time?

Mr. BAKER - Yes, sir.

MORE MARRION BAKER STUFF:

Oswald, Baker, Truly, And The Coke

Reconstructing The Steps Of A Presidential Assassin

Dr. Pepper, Coca-Cola, And Lee Harvey Oswald

Edited July 17, 2013 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

Yes, that is peculiar, as Baker certainly didn't id Oswald in a lineup. He did see him in the TSBD, through the window of the closed lunchroom door, as he passed by the other side, which exonerates Oswald as being the Sixth Floor Sniper since if Oswald had goine through that door surely Truly, ahead of Baker, would have seen him, and Truly didn't see anyone.

JFKcountercoup: THE DOORS OF PERCEPTION - WHY OSWALD IS NOT GUILTY w/notes

And David, thanks for posting your comments on the coke and Dr. Pepper and the written statements of both Baker and Truly signed on Sept. 23, 1964, at the specific request of Arthur Goldberg, the day before the Warren Report was issued. Goldberg is still alive, and was working at the Pentagon as an historian until a few years ago, when I talked with him on the phone. He also wrote a book about 9/11.

But I don't believe that Goldberg was trying to track down the false rumor that someone else was in the Second Floor lunchroom besides Oswald, Baker and Truly. I think that he just belatedly realized what Harold Weisberg said - the encounter in the lunchroom is Oswald's alibi. And not because Oswald couldn't have gotten to the lunchroom in time, he could have, but he didn't because if he had just gone through that door that Baker saw him through the window, Truly would have seen him, and he didn't.

Of course, as Gary Mack and others have pointed out, Oswald could have gone through the lunchroom door BEFORE Truly, and then lingered there doing handstands and cartwheels and then made a furtive funny face at Baker through the window, that caught Baker's attention.

But the more likely scenario is that Oswald was on the first floor at the time of the assassination, and Baker saw him walking through the second floor lunchroom vestibule, having entered through the same door he exited a minute or so later, with coke in hand.

For more on this subject, see Howard Roffman's "Presumed Guilty."

BK

Complete Book: "PRESUMED GUILTY, How and why the Warren Commission framed Lee Harvey Oswald, A factual account based on the Commission's public and private documents", by Howard Roffman

[David Von Pein]

David, thanks for posting your comments on the coke and Dr. Pepper and the written statements of both Baker and Truly signed on Sept. 23, 1964, at the specific request of Arthur Goldberg [sic; his name is really Alfred Goldberg], the day before the Warren Report was issued. Goldberg is still alive, and was working at the Pentagon as an historian until a few years ago, when I talked with him on the phone. He also wrote a book about 9/11.

But I don't believe that Goldberg was trying to track down the false rumor that someone else was in the Second Floor lunchroom besides Oswald, Baker and Truly. I think that he just belatedly realized what Harold Weisberg said - the encounter in the lunchroom is Oswald's alibi.

I think you're wrong about that, Bill. And the reason I think you're wrong is because of the WC text that is attached to those 9/23/64 FBI reports regarding Truly and Baker.

CE3035 and CE3076 (the Baker/Truly statements from 9/23/64) are mentioned as source material in the Warren Report in the "Speculations And Rumors" appendix, connected to the rumor that other people might have been in the lunchroom with Oswald:

http://history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wr/html/WCReport_0336b.htm

That's telling me the probable reason for taking those eleventh-hour statements from two people (Baker & Truly) who had already submitted affidavits and testimony to the WC. And in both of those September 23rd statements, Agent Burnett (who is the person who almost certainly wrote the words we find in those two handwritten documents, with Baker and Truly then signing them and initialling any corrections) specifically mentions the fact that nobody else was in the lunchroom except Oswald. Yes, it's true that other things are mentioned in those statements too, but the key thing is confirming the fact (for the record) that nobody else was there other than LHO. (And that fact was not brought out specifically in the WC testimony of Baker or Truly.)

http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/oswald-baker-truly-and-coca-cola.html

And not because Oswald couldn't have gotten to the lunchroom in time, he could have, but he didn't because if he had just gone through that door that Baker saw him through the window, Truly would have seen him, and he didn't.

That's a mighty weak argument in an effort to exonerate Oswald, who, you just admitted "could have" made it from the sixth-floor Sniper's Nest to the lunchroom in the allotted time. Truly probably just wasn't scanning every inch of every doorway on his way up the stairs -- but Officer Baker (being a trained police officer) was doing such scanning. Baker saw Oswald through the door's window, while Truly didn't. Simple as that.

Jean Davison said something a couple months ago that deserves a replay:

"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- Jean Davison; May 4, 2013

That's food for "lunchroom" thought...isn't it Bill?

Quoting-Common-Sense.blogspot.com

Edited July 19, 2013 by David Von Pein

[William Kelly]

While I appreciate Jean's work and logic, and I'm glad she's thinking about the escape of the real assassin, rather than Oswald, I don't think luck has anything to do with it.

Sure, Oswald could have gotten to the second floor lunchroom vestibule before Truly, and hung out there until Baker came along, but its highly unlikely that Truly did not see someone walking through a door directly in front of him, More likely he was just passing by the door window when Baker got to the top of the steps, and that he left the lunchroom with the coke by the same door he entered.

As for the escape of the actual assassin, from all accounts the man in the brown sports coat came down those steps first and went out the back door, while someone - the sniper or his spotter, stuck around the sniper's nest for quite a few minutes, four or five, long enough to rearrange the boxes and to place the bullet shells in position and whatever else he was doing - in no hurry to get our of there. And the sniper's lair wasn't discovered by Sheriff Mooney for over a half hour, long enough to play more than a few games of domino. Mooney also said he passed someone on the stairs coming down - who was that?

Therefore, I think that the real assassin, no hurries, no worries, played it by the book - and like the Patsy, was an employee or contractor of the TSBD, or was a cop who joined the search.

BK

Edited July 17, 2013 by William Kelly

[Sean Murphy]

Bill, Jean appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.

If the second-floor lunchroom incident really did happen (which personally I doubt--see, for starters, Baker's 11/22 affidavit which David has kindly posted), then I have difficulty with the idea that a non-guilty Oswald just happened to time his trip up to the second floor to within seconds of the shooting.

However Robert Groden's Geneva Hine interview would offer a simple scenario whereby a non-guilty Oswald could be seen through the glass window without having just come up from the first floor--namely, he was on his way to the lunchroom having just gotten change for the coke machine from Hine.

Here's what Groden told Len Osanic:

I actually found a woman some years ago. She was terrified. She did not want to come forward. And she finally agreed to give an interview, and I did interview her. When the shots actually went off, she was talking to Lee Oswald on the second floor. […] We always assumed that Lee had the change, that he had had the change for the machine. He didn’t. He went into the office across from the snack room with a dollar bill and asked for change. He said, “No pennies, please.” And, as the change was being counted out into his hand, the shots went off. And they looked at each other, this woman and Lee, and [asked], “What was that?” Backfires, firecrack[ers], who knew? He got the rest of the change, walked back across the hall, bought the Coke and then just a little over a minute later there was a gun in his ribs held by Officer Baker. Lee had an airtight alibi. He could not possibly have done this. She told this story to the Warren Commission. They told her to keep her mouth shut. And she did. She told very few people. Very few people. I was one of the few that she did. So I got to speak to her because I had a friend who knew a friend of hers. I had to promise her I would never reveal any of this until after she was gone. And now she is. The whole story, including her name, will be in the next book.

But why, on this scenario, would Oswald later (allegedly) claim to have been on the first floor at the time of the shooting?

Well, put the case:

-he's mooching around the first-floor domino room several minutes before the motorcade

-he notices Jarman & Norman reentering the building and naturally assumes that the President has already passed the building

-he goes upstairs to the second-floor lunchroom and sits down (being spotted there by Carolyn Arnold as she is heading outside to catch the motorcade)

-he goes into the second-floor office area for change for the coke machine

-on his way back he is challenged by Baker

Now for the key bit:

-when he hears that JFK has been shot, he assumes it must have been several minutes before the lunchroom incident with the cop

-hence he tells Fritz that he was on the first floor when the President passed the building.

On this scenario: Oswald never realised the significance of the exchange with Geneva Hine in the office. He never realised he had an alibi.

[David Von Pein]

Oswald never realised the significance of the exchange with Geneva Hine in the office. He never realised he had an alibi.

As Rochester Van Jones would say to Jack Benny: "Oh boss, come now!!"

And those patsy-framing conspirators (who apparently were employed by "Idiots Inc.") just allowed their one and only patsy to wander around the lower floors of the building at the precise moment when they needed him up on the 6th floor to frame him. Brilliant plotters, those men.

And then they also decided it was wise to fire shots at the President from multiple directions, thereby ensuring their "patsy" plot would fail (as if allowing the patsy to garner an ironclad alibi wasn't a big enough gaffe).

How To Frame A Patsy And How Not To Do It

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

Jean [Davison] appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.

Of course Jean has heard of Jack Dougherty. And Jean's far from being a "rookie". She wrote a fine book on Oswald 30 years ago.

But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's testimony should know that his testimony is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster. Here's what I mean:

Examining The Testimony Of Jack Dougherty

Back to this quote of Jean Davison's again for a moment:

"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- J. Davison; May 2013

Jean's comment repeated above should be looked at from another context and point-of-view too -- that is: Oswald is certainly "unlike every other employee" when we COMBINE both of these things listed below:

1.) Oswald was positively located "near the shooter's likely escape route" within just two minutes of the assassination.

And

2.) Oswald was "unlike every other employee" in the TSBD because it was HIS RIFLE (not another employee's) that was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. And his rifle was found very near the same staircase that Oswald was also very near within just two minutes after that very same rifle was used by somebody to fire bullets at President Kennedy.

When adding #1 and #2 together, these words written by Jean certainly do apply to Lee Harvey Oswald if he were innocent of shooting the President --- "Is that bad luck or what?"

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Pat Speer]

Did Groden positively ID his witness as Hine, Sean? Because her earlier statements make clear she was alone.


Geneva Hine was manning the phones in the second floor offices of the Texas School Book Depository, on the east side of the building, facing Houston Street. (11-23-63 FBI report, CD5 p369-370) "Mrs. Hine advised that sometime between 12:25 PM and 12:35 PM she was alone in her office on the second floor of the company building...At approximately that time she heard what she described as three shots. She heard these very distinctly and believes they came from somewhere inside the building, inasmuch as it sounded to her that the shots originated above and to the west of her." (11-23-63 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 1 folder 8 file 52 of the Dallas JFK Archives) "Was in the office alone the day of the shooting heard three shots and did not know what happened until the Police came in the office and told the president had been shot." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H651) "At the time President Kennedy was shot I was on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was alone at the time." (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H393-397) “I could see it from the east window of our office…I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming. Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots…Three…they came from inside the building…the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in...they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific." (When asked if she was standing at the window at the time of the shots) "Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. ”


There's also this. In her testimony before the Warren Commission, Hine suggested that there were two other women on the second floor at the time of the shooting. One of these, Mrs. Lee Watley, never made a statement to the FBI or Warren Commission. The other, Mrs. Carol Hughes, made a statement to the FBI which said almost nothing.


Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.
Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?
Miss HINE. Three.
Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.
Mr. BALL. How do you know that?
Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.
Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

395

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.
Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?
Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know,
lying down on the sidewalk.
Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?
Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.
Mr. BALL. You could see could you see any part of Elm?
Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.
Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That opens on---
Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---
Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.
Mr. BALL. What did you do then?
Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.
Mr. BALL. On to Elm?
Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.
Mr. BALL. I See.
Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.
Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?
Miss HINE. Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL. That was which company?
Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?
Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.
Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Mrs. Carol Hughes (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H654) “I am employed by the South-Western Publishing Company, Room 203, Texas School Book Depository...On November 22, 1963, I went to south window near my desk which overlooks Elm Street to watch the Presidential motorcade pass along Houston and Elm Streets. I was standing looking out this window when President John F. Kennedy was shot. I was alone in the office as all the other people had gone to the street to watch the motorcade pass. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time. I do not know Oswald but I had seen him in the building several times prior to this day.”

Edited July 18, 2013 by Pat Speer

[Sean Murphy]

Edit: dupe deleted

Edited July 18, 2013 by Sean Murphy

[Sean Murphy]

Did Groden positively ID his witness as Hine, Sean? Because her earlier statements make clear she was alone.

Geneva Hine was manning the phones in the second floor offices of the Texas School Book Depository, on the east side of the building, facing Houston Street. (11-23-63 FBI report, CD5 p369-370) "Mrs. Hine advised that sometime between 12:25 PM and 12:35 PM she was alone in her office on the second floor of the company building...At approximately that time she heard what she described as three shots. She heard these very distinctly and believes they came from somewhere inside the building, inasmuch as it sounded to her that the shots originated above and to the west of her." (11-23-63 report of the Dallas Police Department, box 1 folder 8 file 52 of the Dallas JFK Archives) "Was in the office alone the day of the shooting heard three shots and did not know what happened until the Police came in the office and told the president had been shot." (3-18-64 statement to the FBI, 22H651) "At the time President Kennedy was shot I was on the second floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building. I was alone at the time." (4-7-64 testimony before the Warren Commission, 6H393-397) “I could see it from the east window of our office…I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming. Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots…Three…they came from inside the building…the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in...they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific." (When asked if she was standing at the window at the time of the shots) "Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know, lying down on the sidewalk. ”

There's also this. In her testimony before the Warren Commission, Hine suggested that there were two other women on the second floor at the time of the shooting. One of these, Mrs. Lee Watley, never made a statement to the FBI or Warren Commission. The other, Mrs. Carol Hughes, made a statement to the FBI which said almost nothing.

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; going north on Houston Street. I saw it turn left and I saw the President's car coming and I saw the President and saw him waving his hand in greeting up in the air and I saw his wife and I saw him turn the corner and after he turned the corner I looked and I saw the next car coming Just at the instant I saw the next car coming up was when I heard the shots.

Mr. BALL. How many did you hear?

Miss HINE. Three.

Mr. BALL Could you tell where the shots were coming from?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they came from inside the building.

Mr. BALL. How do you know that?

Miss HINE. Because the building vibrated from the result of the explosion coming in.

Mr. BALL. It appeared to you that the shots came from the building?

395

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. Did you know they were shots at the time?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; they sounded almost like cannon shots they were so terrific.

Mr. BALL. That is when you were at the window, is that right?

Miss HINE Yes, sir; that is when I was at the window, because the next car, you see, was coming up and turning and I looked. Of course I looked when I heard the shots. I just stood there and saw people running to the east up Elm Street. I saw people running; I saw people falling down, you know,

lying down on the sidewalk.

Mr. BALL. That was on Houston Street?

Miss HINE. No, sir; Elm.

Mr. BALL. You could see could you see any part of Elm?

Miss HINE. East, yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could see east on Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; I could see east on Elm. I saw them run across east on Elm away from where his car had gone and my first thought was if I could only see what happened, so I went out our front door into the foyer.

Mr. BALL. You mean the front door to the office?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That opens on---

Miss HINE. The foyer, little hall, and---

Mr. BALL. Steps lead down?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir; but there is a door before the steps and the elevator is to my left and I went past the hall that goes to my right and I knocked on the door of Lyons and Carnahan; that's a publishing company.

Mr. BALL. What did you do then?

Miss HINE. I tried the door, sir, and it was locked and I couldn't get in and I called, "Me, please let me in," because she's the girl that had that office, Mrs. Lee Watley, and she didn't answer. I don't know if she was there or not, then I left her door. I retraced my steps back to where the hall turns to my left and went down it to Southwestern Publishing Co.'s door and I tried their door and the reason for this was because those windows face out.

Mr. BALL. On to Elm?

Miss HINE. Yes; and on to the triple underpass.

Mr. BALL. I See.

Miss HINE. And there was a girl in there talking on the telephone and I could hear her but she didn't answer the door.

Mr. BALL. Was the door locked?

Miss HINE. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. That was which company?

Miss HINE. Southwestern Publishing Co.

Mr. BALL. Did you call to her?

Miss HINE. I called and called and shook the door and she didn't answer me because she was talking on the telephone; I could hear her. They have a little curtain up and I could see her form through the curtains. I could see her talking and I knew that's what she was doing and then I turned and went through the back hall and came through the back door.

Mr. BALL. Of your office, the second floor office?

Mrs. Carol Hughes (3-20-64 statement to the FBI, 22H654) “I am employed by the South-Western Publishing Company, Room 203, Texas School Book Depository...On November 22, 1963, I went to south window near my desk which overlooks Elm Street to watch the Presidential motorcade pass along Houston and Elm Streets. I was standing looking out this window when President John F. Kennedy was shot. I was alone in the office as all the other people had gone to the street to watch the motorcade pass. I did not see Lee Harvey Oswald at that time. I do not know Oswald but I had seen him in the building several times prior to this day.”

Pat,

Groden hasn't yet identified the lady as Geneva Hine but I can't see who else it could possibly be.

It wouldn't be surprising that Hine's 63/64 statements put her alone at the time of the shooting. According to Groden, she was pressurised into writing Oswald out of her story.

Her earlier statements put her in the office at the time of the shooting. Her WC testimony, by contrast, has her watching the motorcade out the window--which would be a neat way of further distancing her testimony from what really happened.

Vida Lee Whatley gave a statement to the F.B.I. saying she left the TSBD at 12.15 and was shopping on Elm Street at the time of the assassination.

Sean

[Sean Murphy]

Jean [Davison] appears not to have heard of Jack Dougherty! Rookie error.

Of course Jean has heard of Jack Dougherty. And Jean's far from being a "rookie". She wrote a fine book on Oswald 30 years ago.

But anyone who reads through Jack Dougherty's testimony should know that his testimony is a complete mess. His timing of when he did things and when he supposedly heard the gunshots is a total disaster. Here's what I mean:

Examining The Testimony Of Jack Dougherty

Back to this quote of Jean Davison's again for a moment:

"Unlike every other employee, Oswald just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting? Is that bad luck or what?" -- J. Davison; May 2013

Jean's comment repeated above should be looked at from another context and point-of-view too -- that is: Oswald is certainly "unlike every other employee" when we COMBINE both of these things listed below:

1.) Oswald was positively located "near the shooter's likely escape route" within just two minutes of the assassination.

And

2.) Oswald was "unlike every other employee" in the TSBD because it was HIS RIFLE (not another employee's) that was found on the sixth floor after the assassination. And his rifle was found very near the same staircase that Oswald was also very near within just two minutes after that very same rifle was used by somebody to fire bullets at President Kennedy.

When adding #1 and #2 together, these words written by Jean certainly do apply to Lee Harvey Oswald if he were innocent of shooting the President --- "Is that bad luck or what?"

Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting". Jean goofed up, and royally.

[Ian Kingsbury]

50 years of spin cannot put Oswald on the sixth floor!

[David Von Pein]

Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting".

You can't prove that. Certainly not by utilizing Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

Spin away all you like, David, it doesn't change the fact that Jack Dougherty "just happened [to] be near the shooter's likely escape route shortly after the shooting".

You can't prove that. Certainly not by utilizing Dougherty's jigsaw puzzle which represents his testimony. As I said, it's a mess. His testimony reminds me of all the conspiracy theories -- a certifiable disaster area.

If Dougherty's testiomony is such a mess, such a certifiable disaster area, then we cannot say with any assurance that it was he who took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor while Baker and Truly were going up the stairs. Correct?