Marrion Baker identified Oswald in a lineup 11/22?

[David Von Pein]

I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony. Here are several good examples:

Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a

motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched

him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I

could get out there.

~big shrug~

Jack apparently didn't realize there was more than one exit in the TSBD. He felt the ONLY way outside was through the front entrance.

~another shrug~

====================

Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you

told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud

explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor

above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot,

coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car

backfiring.

Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the

floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes.

I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala "backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh?

=====================

Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they

found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22 PM CST on November 22nd. Joe Ball was probably pulling his hair out while trying to comprehend this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony.

======================

Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the

shots?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on

the fifth floor at all. It was just myself.

======================

Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch.

Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment regarding JD's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above? Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same day's WC testimony:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL - What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

Your witness, Perry.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ian Kingsbury]

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, then immediately I heard a loud noise---it sounded like a car backfiring, and I came back down to the first floor, and I asked Eddie Piper, I said, "Piper, what was that?" I says, "Has the President been shot?'. He said, "Yes."

Mr. BALL - You didn't say--did you say, 'Has the President been shot?"---you told the FBI agent that you went down to the first floor and you saw a man named Eddie Piper and asked him if he heard a loud noise.

Who's telling the story here?

Who's the next witness that did not see Oswald.

And who was Officer Denham escorting from the third floor for

"Acting suspiciously"?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Ian Kingsbury

[David Von Pein]

Nice job, Ian. Cast doubt and suspicion on everybody except the owner of that gun up on the sixth floor. And that gun owner just happened to be located in the northwest corner of the building 2 minutes after shots were fired from OSWALD'S GUN.

But keeping Oswald's skirts tidy and neat seems to be the only thing conspiracy theorists are interested in doing.

What a silly hobby.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

I'd put a big ol' grain of salt by my side when evaluating anything in Dougherty's testimony. Here are several good examples:

Mr. BALL - Did you know that the President was going to pass in a

motorcade that noon?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, they said something about it.

Mr. BALL - Did you intend to go out and watch him?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I would have loved to have went out and watched

him, but the steps were so crowded---there was no way in the world I

could get out there.

~big shrug~

Jack apparently didn't realize there was more than one exit in the TSBD. He felt the ONLY way outside was through the front entrance.

~another shrug~

====================

Mr. BALL - On the day that this happened, on the 22nd of November, you

told the FBI agents Ellington and Anderson that you heard "a loud

explosion which sounded like a rifle shot coming from the next floor

above me." Now, did you tell them that it sounded like a rifle shot,

coming from the next floor above you, or didn't you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, I believe I told them it sounded like a car

backfiring.

Mr. BALL - Well, did you tell them it sounded like it was from the

floor above you, or didn't you tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - You did not tell them that?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No.

Mr. BALL - Did it sound like it came from the floor above you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Well, at the time it did--yes.

I guess Dougherty must have thought there was a '62 Chevy Impala "backfiring" up on the sixth floor, huh?

=====================

Mr. BALL - When you went up to the sixth floor, it was after they

found the shotgun and shells?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, sir.

So, Dougherty is now saying he was on the sixth floor AFTER 1:22 PM CST on November 22nd. Joe Ball was probably pulling his hair out while trying to comprehend this incoherent mess that is Jack D.'s testimony.

======================

Mr. BALL - Are you sure you were on the fifth floor when you heard the

shots?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes, I'm positive.

Mr. BALL - Did you see any other employee on the fifth floor?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - No, sir; I didn't see nobody. There wasn't nobody on

the fifth floor at all. It was just myself.

======================

Mr. BALL - Now, did you hear this shot either before or after lunch?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - It was before lunch; it was before lunch.

Mr. BALL - You think it was before lunch you heard the shot?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I believe it was--yes, sir.

Mr. BALL - And you were alone, were you?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Yes.

Here we have a replay of the previous humorous moment regarding JD's "before lunch" declaration. How could anyone POSSIBLY believe Dougherty's "Before Lunch" testimony above? Especially when we also find this exchange within the very same day's WC testimony:

Mr. DOUGHERTY - I went back downstairs to eat lunch.

Mr. BALL - What time?

Mr. DOUGHERTY - Oh, it was 12 o'clock.

Your witness, Perry.

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

[David Von Pein]

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Sean Murphy]

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.

It's only "possible"? That's very interesting, for it means that--in your opinion--we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that it was Dougherty who brought that west freight elevator down between Baker & Truly's starting up the stairs and their reaching the fifth floor.

Thanks, David.

[Pat Speer]

So--is it your belief that Jack Dougherty took the west freight elevator off the fifth floor before Baker and Truly came up on to the fifth floor landing?

That's possible. But it had to have been after Baker & Truly had started up the stairs, because both freight elevators were stuck on upper floors when B&T first got to the elevators.

It's only "possible"? That's very interesting, for it means that--in your opinion--we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that it was Dougherty who brought that west freight elevator down between Baker & Truly's starting up the stairs and their reaching the fifth floor.

Thanks, David.

Good job, Sean, of illuminating the Dougherty dilemma in the eyes of single-assassin theorists. They need him to lack credibility, so they can dispute his comments about seeing Oswald in the morning without a package, etc. But they need him to have credibility, so they can say he took the elevator down from the fifth floor while Baker and Truly ran up the stairs.

Hey, David, how about we evaluate Dougherty's statements on their own merits? And treat Dougherty--who was almost certainly mentally challenged--like any other witness?

Edited July 18, 2013 by Pat Speer

[William Kelly]

Nice job, Ian. Cast doubt and suspicion on everybody except the owner of that gun up on the sixth floor. And that gun owner just happened to be located in the northwest corner of the building 2 minutes after shots were fired from OSWALD'S GUN.

But keeping Oswald's skirts tidy and neat seems to be the only thing conspiracy theorists are interested in doing.

What a silly hobby.

Wait a minute David,

How do you classify 80% of the people as silly conspiracy theorists who are wasting their time on a hobby?

My hobby is to try to determine the truth.

Since we have already shown that the assassination didn't happen the way the Warren Report says, it must have happened another way.

And Why do you have to mention conspiracy theorists in every post?

Can't you think for yourself or do you have to check to see what conspiracy theorists believe before you bash them some more?

We certainly are going to cast doubt on anyone except the owner of the gun once we determine that the owner of the gun wasn't even on the sixth floor when shots were fired from there.

And Ian, who is this Officer Denham who was "escorted from the third floor" for acting suspiciously?

A Dallas Cop or Sheriff's officer?

BK

[David Von Pein]

And CTers love to ignore the fact that Dougherty said he only saw Oswald "out of the corner of my eye" when Oswald came into the TSBD on 11/22.

Does a single conspiracy book EVER mention that part of Jack Dougherty's testimony when the subject of "WHO ELSE BESIDES FRAZIER AND RANDLE SAW OSWALD WITH THE PAPER BAG?" comes up?

I've yet to hear of one CTer ever mention that important testimony.

Why?

Because they like to promote the idea that Dougherty HAD to have seen Oswald with a bag if he had been carrying one that morning. But how much detail can YOU pick up out of the corner of your own eye?

So it's a game that will never end. I'll always point out the "corner of my eye" testimony that CTers refuse to ever mention. And CTers will point out the elevator stuff as it relates to Dougherty, and they'll ask: Well, Dave, how come Mr. Dougherty didn't see Oswald go by him as LHO was racing from the sixth floor down to the fifth where Jack D. was?

My answer: I haven't the foggiest. But I certainly don't think Dougherty HAD to absolutely see Oswald go by. Perhaps they just barely missed each other that day. Why is that an impossibility?

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

We certainly are going to cast doubt on anyone except the owner of the gun once we determine that the owner of the gun wasn't even on the sixth floor when shots were fired from there.

That's a CT fantasy, Bill. Nothing more. Oswald's gun was on the sixth floor that day. And so was Oswald--at 12:30.

And you surely cannot believe that the vast majority of the proverbial "80%" figure that you talk about is composed of CTers who are remotely similar to people like us on the Internet -- i.e., people who spend untold hours going over these same JFK points day after day and year after year....can you, Bill?

90% of that "80%" probably couldn't even tell you who Jesse Curry is. Or Ruth Paine. Or J.D. Tippit.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[David Von Pein]

And Ian, who is this Officer Denham who was "escorted from the third floor" for acting suspiciously?

Yeah, Bill. I'd like to know that info myself. Because I've never heard of "Denham" before either.

But you've misquoted Ian above. He didn't say Denham himself was being "escorted". He said somebody named Denham was escorting someone else.

Edited July 18, 2013 by David Von Pein

[Ian Kingsbury]

Nice job, Ian. Cast doubt and suspicion on everybody except the owner of that gun up on the sixth floor. And that gun owner just happened to be located in the northwest corner of the building 2 minutes after shots were fired from OSWALD'S GUN.

But keeping Oswald's skirts tidy and neat seems to be the only thing conspiracy theorists are interested in doing.

What a silly hobby.

Wait a minute David,

How do you classify 80% of the people as silly conspiracy theorists who are wasting their time on a hobby?

My hobby is to try to determine the truth.

Since we have already shown that the assassination didn't happen the way the Warren Report says, it must have happened another way.

And Why do you have to mention conspiracy theorists in every post?

Can't you think for yourself or do you have to check to see what conspiracy theorists believe before you bash them some more?

We certainly are going to cast doubt on anyone except the owner of the gun once we determine that the owner of the gun wasn't even on the sixth floor when shots were fired from there.

And Ian, who is this Officer Denham who was "escorted from the third floor" for acting suspiciously?

A Dallas Cop or Sheriff's officer?

BK

Bill

I found it here:-

http://educationforum.ipbhost.com/index.php?showtopic=19782&page=2

Most of what you find will be where Denham was at the time of the shooting on traffic patrol

But Trantham said he saw Hill coming up the stairs at around the third floor Baker

Also met someone on the third/fourth floor in his original affadavit.

The tan jacket man.

Ian

[Sean Murphy]

David von Pein has made clear his opinion that Jack Dougherty's testimony is such a "mess" that the best we can say of his claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor just after the shooting is that--it's "possible". Can we state with any assurance or confidence that Dougherty did indeed do this? Not according to David we can't.

Let's unpack this a little further, shall we?

If, as David believes, we cannot state with any assurance or confidence that it was Dougherty who brought the west freight elevator off the fifth floor,

and if, as David believes, we can state with assurance and confidence that the west freight elevator did indeed leave the fifth floor between the time that Baker and Truly took to the stairs and the time they hit the fifth floor landing,

then it follows that:

we cannot state with any reasonable degree of assurance that the disappearance of the fifth floor elevator has an innocent explanation.

Why is this?

Because there is not a single TSBD employee other than Dougherty who could possibly have taken that elevator. It certainly can't have been Oswald. It certainly can't have been Norman, Jarman or Williams. And no-one else was in the vicinity.

Thus David's own reasoning leads us to a startling conclusion:

It is unsafe and unreasonable so to rely on Jack Dougherty's testimony as to rule out the possibility that the west freight elevator was taken off the fifth floor by someone who did not work in the TSBD.

Now unless David is prepared to upgrade his "possible" to an "almost certain" in talking of Dougherty's claim to have taken the west freight elevator off the fifth floor just after the assassination, he has just committed himself to the following view:

It is possible that the Lone Nut Theory is true;

belief in that theory, however, can never be held with anything close to assurance or confidence

--for to do so would be to rely on the certifiable disaster area that is Jack Dougherty's testimony.

Again, thanks David.

[Ian Kingsbury]

Who was Jack Edwin Dougherty anybody seen a picture?

Was he interviewed by anybody other than the W.C.?.

[David Von Pein]

Sean,

You're elevating the "Dougherty/Elevator" episode to absurd levels of perceived importance.

Fact is: I don't know with 100% certainty how the elevator got down from the fifth floor shortly after the assassination took place. Nor do you.

But whether it was Dougherty or wasn't Dougherty on that elevator, the movement of that elevator doesn't suddenly eliminate all of the evidence that indicates Lee Harvey Oswald murdered two people in Dallas on 11/22/63.