Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Greg Parker]

Robert:

Post 270 has the information you seek. In addition to the New York Herald Tribune, The Dallas Morning News published an article by Kent Biffle discussing Oswald being spotted in a storage room on the first floor.

Good first day evidence.

Thanks Randy.

You've obviously done your homework on this thread, so great to have you on board!

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thanks Randy. I read that post when Sean first put it up, but had forgotten about it.

Okay, so that's Eddie Piper, and possibly LHO in a storage closet (what was he doing in there?), on the first floor when Truly and Baker entered the TSBD. Was there anyone else on the 1st floor at the time of the shooting, or was Eddie Piper all alone?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, I've been asking this question on several threads for the last couple of days, and it seems that, by the lack of response, Oswald and Piper were the only people on the first floor that might have seen Baker and Truly come into the building.

I'm going to start a new thread about this and some observations I made, and I'm sure, within 5 minutes of posting it, someone will find a host of people that were on the first floor.

[Brad Milch]

Hi, Robert & all others

Whether Intel or not, I can understand Lee Oswald ducking inside the TSBD doorway to escape Darnell's camera pointed at him from one of the motorcade news cars (if Prayerman is LHO). The longer he stayed outside, the more film could be taken of him. I'm no Intel, but I do understand camera shyness. I've ducked away from cameras countless times in my life.

Darnell's original film may resolve the question of LHO being Prayerman or not. What we are seeing is the product of multi-generation copies & difficult for image enhancers to work with. The original is what is needed to clarify.

Other photographers may have captured Prayerman. These would include Tina Towner, her father Jim Towner, Hugh Betzner, Phil Willis, Mark Bell, Robert Hughes & Jay Skaggs. I understand (via her website info) that Tina donated the copywrite to her film to the 6th Floor Museum. The John Martin, Orville Nix, Mary Muchmore, Tina Towner (Pender), Mark Bell & Robert Hughes films have all been accused of being the victims of butcher jobs (scenes cut out or modified with image paint via an optical printer; or both).

If Prayerman was LHO & was taking film in the TSBD entranceway , I can't help but wonder if LHO was told to take his camera & film to the Texas theatre & meet a person with a match to the box top he was carrying when arrested.

Being the hot potato LHO became after his arrest & murder, I doubt anyone who may have seen him inside the TSBD doorway or been inside when he came in would ever admit it (if they wanted to stay alive).

I agree with Greg Parker; I believe Prayerman beat both Baker & Truly inside. Darnell's small amount of post-ambush film footage may turn out to be the most valuable footage taken during the entire event.

This is a super great thread. It's packed with info.

BM

Edited March 21, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Tom Hume]

Some will remember that in 1963, film in sealed dispensers was not available for many cameras. It was good practice to load and unload one's camera in a very dark place like, say, a closet.

If Oswald/PM had been establishing an alibi for himself by photographing the motorcade, the people around him, and himself, he may have wanted to get his film to safety as soon as possible; perhaps with a small pre-addressed package he could drop in a mailbox.

Tom

Edited March 21, 2015 by Tom Hume

[Robert Prudhomme]

Well, I've been asking this question on several threads for the last couple of days, and it seems that, by the lack of response, Oswald and Piper were the only people on the first floor that might have seen Baker and Truly come into the building.

I'm going to start a new thread about this and some observations I made, and I'm sure, within 5 minutes of posting it, someone will find a host of people that were on the first floor.

One last question. I've been going through statements and testimony to see how many witnesses on the steps of the TSBD saw Baker run into the TSBD. Aside from Shelley, Lovelady and Truly, is anyone aware of any other witness who saw Baker run up the steps into the TSBD?

[Robert Prudhomme]

So far, after doing some hasty searching of statements and testimony from witnesses on the TSBD steps, the only one I can find who saw a helmeted motorcycle cop run up the steps of the TSBD is Pauline Sanders. Unfortunately, Ms. Sanders never testified before the WC, and the only information we have from her is contained in one of the FBI's famous "reports", written in the third person, and likely not seen or signed by the subject of the report. As we all know, many of these FBI reports show clear signs of evidence tampering on the part of FBI agents, and are deviations from the truth.

From Pauline Sanders' FBI report of 24/11/63:

"She advised she could not recall the exact time but immediately after the presidential parade passed she heard three loud blasts and she immediately realized that the shots or whatever it was came from the building above her. She said within a matter of ten seconds a uniform police officer in a white helmet ran into the building but she did not observe him any further and could not state where he went in the building."

Any other witnesses on the steps or in the TSBD recall seeing Baker?

Edited March 21, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Brad Milch]

There's a glaring & frustrating absence of witness observations from the Dal-Tex, Records, County Courts, Courthouse & Federal Annex Buildings as well as sidewalk spectators in this case, isn't there, Robert? One can see them in photos & amateur films hanging out windows & lining the sidewalks & ponder who they were, what they saw & how so many reporters on the scene managed to let them slip through their collective fingers (these include Dan Rather, Hugh Aynesworth, Pierce Allman & more). Dave Wiegman ran past a small group of black women & men near the R.L. Thornton freeway sign that have never been heard from so as to focus on the Hestors on the pergola grass that he never asked a single question of. Most, if not all, of the 3rd person statements read pretty much identical (as if the same person wrote them). Some have speculated that they were prepared in advance of the crime or quickly afterwards.

In retrospect, it wouldn't have taken that many officers to 'hold everything secure'. The middle section of the plaza would have contained most witnesses if they had been marshaled there & not allowed to wander off. We all saw how many bodies could be crammed in that area during the JFK 50th TV coverage.

Good luck, Robert. What you learn & tell us will probably be news to most, if not all of us.

BM

Edited March 22, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Brad Milch]

That's spot on, Randy.

I've noticed that the TV media will briefly focus on a wrongly convicted felon whose conviction is overturned & set free but not focus on evidence indicating Lee Oswald was not JFK's killer. 'Doing the right thing' doesn't seem to apply to the media shunning researchers & analysts re-evaluating the allegations made against LHO, does it?

One of the frustrating things for me is all those people that were present in Dealey Plaza (seen in photographs & films) not being heard in the 51 years since the crime. Surely some of them were married & had family & friends that they shared their experiences with. Where are those people's voices? Why aren't they using the Internet to get what they know out to the global public?

Equally frustrating are certain people acting as 'voices' for people that were personally involved in the JFK murder story in some fashion. In witness interviews, these people usually lead the narrative, don't ask the pertinent questions that could help solve the case & slip in their own factoids that muddy the water when circulated.

I do wish Robert Prudhomme well on his witness hunt & will follow his progress here at EF. We all stand to learn from what he uncovers. Unfortunately, if the wrong people get to the witnesses first, we'll learn nothing. Blogs, email & EF are excellent avenues for someone who knows something about this case to communicate with those interested in determining the truth vs. those with agendas to deceive. It's easy to become an EF member & talk to the global public (while maintaining personal privacy) if actual JFK ambush witnesses desire to.

There's enough evidence in this thread to counter the public brainwashing that LHO shot & killed JFK solo & justify a reassessment of LHO's role in the ambush that claimed the life of President Kennedy. It's the right thing to do if LHO wasn't JFK's killer.

A salute to all the diligent researchers courageous enough to present it here at EF & to EF for getting the story out.

At the moment, questions are piling up in my mind. Is it possible that the barrel or scope of a rifle that witnesses claimed they saw in the sniper's nest was the extended lens of a telephoto camera; a 'pipe looking thing'?

BM

Edited March 22, 2015 by Brad Milch

[Robert Prudhomme]

I know the importance of this thread, and its capacity to turn the whole JFK murder case upside down, should PM be proven to be Oswald.

For this reason, I believe it essential to completely eliminate every other possible candidate for PM. In the process of researching this, I have made some startling discoveries, as seen in this photo.

By Buell Wesley Frazier's own testimony, he was about six feet tall but, in this photo, he towers over the man referred to as Prayer Man; a difficult feat if PM is the 5'9" Oswald. PM also appears to be quite a bit chunkier than the slender Oswald. I thought this may have been the result of the type of lens on the camera but, no one else in this photo, especially Frazier, appears to be distorted on the horizontal plane.

The most disturbing thing, though, is the WC testimony from Joe Molina, seen in this photo reputedly taken 25 years after the assassination:

This is the only photo I have found of Joe Molina, and if anyone has a photo taken closer to 1963, please post it.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?
Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.
Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?
Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.
Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?
Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.
Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?
Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.
Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.
Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.
Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go
Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.
Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?
Mr. MOLINA. Yes.
Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?
Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

I believe there is a distinct possibility that, in our eagerness, we may have seriously misidentified PM, and that a great deal of research effort should be concentrated on Joe Molina at this time.

Edited March 22, 2015 by Robert Prudhomme

[Paul Brancato]

If prayerman was standing on the top step rather than the landing that would explain the height differential with Frazier.

Would someone remind me at what time this photo was taken?

Edited March 22, 2015 by Paul Brancato

[Chris Davidson]

I know the importance of this thread, and its capacity to turn the whole JFK murder case upside down, should PM be proven to be Oswald.

For this reason, I believe it essential to completely eliminate every other possible candidate for PM. In the process of researching this, I have made some startling discoveries, as seen in this photo.

By Buell Wesley Frazier's own testimony, he was about six feet tall but, in this photo, he towers over the man referred to as Prayer Man; a difficult feat if PM is the 5'9" Oswald. PM also appears to be quite a bit chunkier than the slender Oswald. I thought this may have been the result of the type of lens on the camera but, no one else in this photo, especially Frazier, appears to be distorted on the horizontal plane.

The most disturbing thing, though, is the WC testimony from Joe Molina, seen in this photo reputedly taken 25 years after the assassination:

This is the only photo I have found of Joe Molina, and if anyone has a photo taken closer to 1963, please post it.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Joe Molina:

"Mr. BALL. Did you see Mr. Truly go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Where were you when you saw him go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I was right in the entrance.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a police officer with him?

Mr. MOLINA. I didn't see a police officer. I don't recall seeing a police officer but I did see him go inside.

Mr. BALL. Did you see a white-helmeted police officer any time there in the entrance?

Mr. MOLINA. Well, of course, there might have been one after they secured the building, you know.

Mr. BALL. No, I mean when Truly went in; did you see Truly actually go into the building?

Mr. MOLINA. I saw him go in.

Mr. BALL. Where were you standing?

Mr. MOLINA. Right at the front door; right at the front door.

Mr. BALL. Outside the front door?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, outside the front door I was standing; the door was right behind me.

Mr. BALL. Were you standing on the steps?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes, on the uppermost step.

Mr. BALL. You actually saw Truly go

Mr. MOLINA. Yeah.

Mr. BALL. You were still standing there?

Mr. MOLINA. Yes.

Mr. BALL. How long was it after you heard the shots?

Mr. MOLINA. Oh, I would venture to say maybe 20 or 30 seconds afterwards."

I believe there is a distinct possibility that, in our eagerness, we may have seriously misidentified PM, and that a great deal of research effort should be concentrated on Joe Molina at this time.

Robert,

I inquired about the height disparity in the "How Important Is The Bill Kelley Thread".

Posting #96-98

I agree. It's always good to clear these questions up, before we go on.

chris

[Robert Prudhomme]

Lee

Yes, one would expect Molina to be wearing a shirt and tie, considering his position as a bookkeeper at the TSBD. However, there is no guarantee of this, and his testimony does place him exactly where we see PM.

Paul

I imagine we will spend the next couple of days discussing the difference between "top step" and "landing". I know that, in my part of western Canada, the words "top step" would indicate the part of the steps that connected with the TSBD door, but it is likely different in other parts of the world. It is similar to the discussions we have had about whether it is the "main" or "first" floor.

However, if it happens that Joe Molina was standing one step down from the top, this still does not solve the discrepancy in height between Frazier and PM.

From the Warren Commission testimony of Buell WesleyFrazier:

"Mr. BALL - Then let's see, there was Billy Lovelady and you were there.

Mr. FRAZIER - Right.
Mr. BALL - Anybody else you can remember?
Mr. FRAZIER - There was a lady there, a heavy-set lady who worked upstairs there whose name is Sarah something, I don't know her last name.
Mr. BALL - Were you near the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; I was, I was standing about, I believe, one step down from the top there.
Mr. BALL - One step down from the top of the steps?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir; standing there by the rail.
Mr. BALL - By steps we are talking about the steps of the entrance to the Building?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Shown in this picture?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir.
Mr. BALL - Which is Commission's Exhibit No. 362. Can you come over here and show us about where you were standing?
Mr. FRAZIER - Yes, sir. Like I told you this was an entrance right here.
Mr. BALL - Yes, sir.
Mr. FRAZIER - We have a bar rail running about half way up here. This was the first step and I was standing right around there."

So, with Frazier standing one step down from the top, it could place Frazier and PM on the same step, OR it could place PM one step higher, as you indicated, making PM at least one foot shorter than Frazier.

[Robert Prudhomme]

There are certainly two individuals on the steps wearing a shirt and tie, possibly a third. We still do not know who they are. One has to be Shelley who, as a Supervisor, wore a shirt and tie.

Whilst I appreciate everyone's efforts here I'd much sooner see a concerted and active campaign to get scans made of the original film source material.

That's the only way we'll know.

Sorry, Lee, I am of the opinion that it is important to examine all of the evidence. While I believe it important to get scans made of the original film source material, I now also believe it important to get a photo of Joe Molina from 1963, plus all the stats on his height, weight, etc.

Is it possible Joe Molina is still alive? Does he have descendants still in the Dallas area?

[Robert Prudhomme]

There are certainly two individuals on the steps wearing a shirt and tie, possibly a third. We still do not know who they are. One has to be Shelley who, as a Supervisor, wore a shirt and tie.

Whilst I appreciate everyone's efforts here I'd much sooner see a concerted and active campaign to get scans made of the original film source material.

That's the only way we'll know.

Sorry, Lee, I am of the opinion that it is important to examine all of the evidence. While I believe it important to get scans made of the original film source material, I now also believe it important to get a photo of Joe Molina from 1963, plus all the stats on his height, weight, etc.

Is it possible Joe Molina is still alive? Does he have descendants still in the Dallas area?

I think Joe Molina has been adequately covered throughout this thread by Sean and others in terms of being accounted for (i.e., not PM). Here are some places to check to see if you agree: posts 83, 112, 189, 342, 352 and 659. There are more as well.

One of the problems with a long, detailed thread such as this is that it's easy to forget what has already been covered and established. So sometimes it's easy to ask questions that have previously been answered. You yourself recognized this in Post 1218.

I struggle with this as well.

While many references are made to Molina being ruled out as PM, in the posts you referred to, no reference is given to just HOW Molina was ruled out. Further, Molina is located further down on the steps by one poster. This is indeed strange, as no one seems to have a photo of Molina in 1963, and I would really like to know just how that poster identified Molina.

While it is stated that Molina is one of the people on the steps not remembered by anyone else on the steps, he is not alone here. There are three other people on the steps no one recalls. For that matter, Frazier recalls neither PM or Officer Baker, so I would hardly make being remembered the litmus test for being on the steps that day.

This happens far too often in this case. We focus on one character, and insignificant characters, such as Molina, are ignored. When something does involve this insignificant character, assumptions are made about him to make him fit the theory of the moment, often on the thinnest of evidence, such as "a bookkeeper should wear a tie, so that man must be Molina".

While I have no way of telling if Joe Molina was telling the truth when giving testimony to the WC, I also do not see a reason for Mr. Molina to lie to the WC, and, for that reason, I believe we have to take his testimony seriously. Unfortunately, that testimony places him exactly where we see PM.

Perhaps I missed it during this very long thread but, could someone explain to me just how Joe Molina was eliminated as Prayer Man?