Oswald Leaving TSBD?

[Vanessa Loney]

Isn't it perfectly possible for both encounters to have occurred? Baker runs up the steps seconds after the shots and encounters Oswald there. After that Oswald goes inside the TSBD and is seen by Occhus Campbell in the storage room when he (OC) returns to the building 'shortly' after the shots?

Tommy, why do you think Oswald went inside to get his lunch after the shots? Sorry, I've probably missed a lot.

I find it incredibly coincidental that Oswald said he had his lunch out on the steps with Shelley and lo and behold, there is an Oswald-type lunch left on the steps right next to where PM was standing.

Who else on the TSBD steps actually said they ate their lunch on the steps that day? Maybe Molina? IIRC all the rest claimed they ate before or after being on the steps.

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that whoever left that lunch on the steps actually ate out there. Otherwise it's an odd spot for someone to leave their rubbish if they'd eaten their lunch elsewhere. Why not dump it in the building's rubbish bin if they were going back inside?

I know I've got a bee in my bonnet about the lunch but it's one of those dot-connecting things that I think forms part of the whole picture and tends to confirm that Oswald is PM.

Hi Vanessa,

Good to hear from you again.

To answer your question -- I can't think of any other reason for him to go into that small storage room by the front door on his lunch break, and it was close to the front door! LOL Now, if they encountered him in the storage room back in the north west corner, as some researchers claim, that would be a different matter altogether. In that case he was probably there to get a Dr. Pepper!

Also, I'm now convinced that Prayer Man was holding a twin lens "reflex" camera (with a light-reflecting and transmitting "viewing lens") and therefore needed to have both hands free for its operation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and he'd only half eaten his cheese sandwich or his apple, he might have stashed them in that storage room right before he walked out onto the top step or "landing area" with his camera.

But all of this Prayer-Man-was-Oswald and he-had-his-camera-with-him raises a sticky issue -- wasn't Oswald's Imperial Reflex found at Ruth Paine's place? Edit: I've just read in Accessories After the Fact that the FBI, etc. apparently overlooked the camera at Ruth's place a few times, and Robert Oswald allegedly took it home with him from there on December 8, 1963.

--Tommy

Another Devil's Advocate Edit: In Accessories After the Fact, Sylvia Meagher quotes Ruth Paine's March 21, 1964, WC testimony as saying that Oswald once showed her the camera he had bought in Russia, and complained to her that he couldn't buy film for it in the U.S. because of a size difference, and Meagher goes on to say that only two (actually three) photographs are known to have been taken in the U.S. with that camera -- the backyard backyard photos.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9XEhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT212&lpg=PT212&dq=oswald+%22imperial+reflex%22+paine&source=bl&ots=yIkkvQvWdC&sig=pHz6yCzP8qicqhMzzDIegEtpEyc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMI8pjKy6mOxwIVlDSICh0tqAU5#v=onepage&q=oswald%20%22imperial%20reflex%22%20paine&f=false

If it's true that Oswald couldn't buy film for that camera (but I doubt that because I think it used size 620 film which was commonly available back then) in this camera, it makes no sense that he would take it to the TSBD to get some photos of -- well, whatever.

BTW, It's interesting to note that Marina, in her WC testimony, said the camera was black.

Oswald's was silver-grey:

Final thought for now: If Prayer Man had been holding this camera in Wiegman and Darnell / Couch, I think its light color would have been highly visible in those films.

Isn't it perfectly possible for both encounters to have occurred? Baker runs up the steps seconds after the shots and encounters Oswald there. After that Oswald goes inside the TSBD and is seen by Occhus Campbell in the storage room when he (OC) returns to the building 'shortly' after the shots?

Tommy, why do you think Oswald went inside to get his lunch after the shots? Sorry, I've probably missed a lot.

I find it incredibly coincidental that Oswald said he had his lunch out on the steps with Shelley and lo and behold, there is an Oswald-type lunch left on the steps right next to where PM was standing.

Who else on the TSBD steps actually said they ate their lunch on the steps that day? Maybe Molina? IIRC all the rest claimed they ate before or after being on the steps.

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that whoever left that lunch on the steps actually ate out there. Otherwise it's an odd spot for someone to leave their rubbish if they'd eaten their lunch elsewhere. Why not dump it in the building's rubbish bin if they were going back inside?

I know I've got a bee in my bonnet about the lunch but it's one of those dot-connecting things that I think forms part of the whole picture and tends to confirm that Oswald is PM.

Hi Vanessa,

Good to hear from you again.

To answer your question -- I can't think of any other reason for him to go into that small storage room by the front door on his lunch break, and it was close to the front door! LOL Now, if they encountered him in the storage room back in the north west corner, as some researchers claim, that would be a different matter altogether. In that case he was probably there to get a Dr. Pepper!

Also, I'm now convinced that Prayer Man was holding a twin lens "reflex" camera (with a light-reflecting and transmitting "viewing lens") and therefore needed to have both hands free for its operation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and he'd only half eaten his cheese sandwich or his apple, he might have stashed them in that storage room right before he walked out onto the top step or "landing area" with his camera.

But all of this Prayer-Man-was-Oswald and he-had-his-camera-with-him raises a sticky issue -- wasn't Oswald's Imperial Reflex found at Ruth Paine's place? Edit: I've just read in Accessories After the Fact that the FBI, etc. apparently overlooked the camera at Ruth's place a few times, and Robert Oswald allegedly took it home with him from there on December 8, 1963.

--Tommy

Another Devil's Advocate Edit: In Accessories After the Fact, Sylvia Meagher quotes Ruth Paine's March 21, 1964, WC testimony as saying that Oswald once showed her the camera he had bought in Russia, and complained to her that he couldn't buy film for it in the U.S. because of a size difference, and Meagher goes on to say that only two (actually three) photographs are known to have been taken in the U.S. with that camera -- the backyard backyard photos.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9XEhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT212&lpg=PT212&dq=oswald+%22imperial+reflex%22+paine&source=bl&ots=yIkkvQvWdC&sig=pHz6yCzP8qicqhMzzDIegEtpEyc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMI8pjKy6mOxwIVlDSICh0tqAU5#v=onepage&q=oswald%20%22imperial%20reflex%22%20paine&f=false

If it's true that Oswald couldn't buy film for that camera (but I doubt that because I think it used size 620 film which was commonly available back then) in this camera, it makes no sense that he would take it to the TSBD to get some photos of -- well, whatever.

BTW, It's interesting to note that Marina, in her WC testimony, said the camera was black.

Oswald's was silver-grey:

Final thought for now: If Prayer Man had been holding this camera in Wiegman and Darnell / Couch, I think its light color would have been highly visible in those films.

Thanks Tommy!

I know this is just speculation but I think it makes more sense for Oswald to eat his lunch on the steps (as Fritz said LHO said) and then put it down to use the camera which was on a strap around his neck. Maybe he left the camera in the storage room........??. The story of the camera is a whole other mystery in itself.

I agree that it's possible the flashlight affect in Weigman is Linda's light affect. It's such a good explanation I want to believe it.

I think ROKC is heading towards thinking the camera that Robert Oswald produced months later and said was Lee's was actually Robert's.

[Thomas Graves]

Isn't it perfectly possible for both encounters to have occurred? Baker runs up the steps seconds after the shots and encounters Oswald there. After that Oswald goes inside the TSBD and is seen by Occhus Campbell in the storage room when he (OC) returns to the building 'shortly' after the shots?

Tommy, why do you think Oswald went inside to get his lunch after the shots? Sorry, I've probably missed a lot.

I find it incredibly coincidental that Oswald said he had his lunch out on the steps with Shelley and lo and behold, there is an Oswald-type lunch left on the steps right next to where PM was standing.

Who else on the TSBD steps actually said they ate their lunch on the steps that day? Maybe Molina? IIRC all the rest claimed they ate before or after being on the steps.

I think it's not unreasonable to assume that whoever left that lunch on the steps actually ate out there. Otherwise it's an odd spot for someone to leave their rubbish if they'd eaten their lunch elsewhere. Why not dump it in the building's rubbish bin if they were going back inside?

I know I've got a bee in my bonnet about the lunch but it's one of those dot-connecting things that I think forms part of the whole picture and tends to confirm that Oswald is PM.

Hi Vanessa,

Good to hear from you again.

To answer your question -- I can't think of any other reason for him to go into that small storage room by the front door on his lunch break, and it was close to the front door! LOL Now, if they encountered him in the storage room back in the north west (?) corner, as some researchers claim, that would be a different matter altogether. In that case he was probably there to get a Dr. Pepper!

I'm now convinced that Prayer Man was holding a twin lens "reflex" camera (with an internal 45 degree mirror that reflected direct sunlight back out through the "viewing lens" and could make that lens glow, even in the shade) and therefore needed to have both hands free for its operation. If Prayer Man was Oswald and he'd only half eaten his cheese sandwich or his apple, he might have stashed them in that storage room right before he walked out onto the top step or "landing area" with his camera.

But all of this Prayer-Man-was-Oswald and he-had-his-camera-with-him raises a sticky issue -- wasn't Oswald's Imperial Reflex found at Ruth Paine's place?

Edit: I've just read a FBI report that says that Irving, Texas, police detective John A. McCabe allegedly found the Imperial Reflex in a box of Oswald's possessions while searching Ruth Paine's house on 11/23/63, but gave it no evidentiary value whatsoever because "it appeared to him to be in such bad condition as to be unusable" (or words to that effect), and so he didn't take it in as evidence but just left it at Mrs. Paines'. I find McCabe's story implausible -- It's interesting to note that the FBI report doesn't say whether or not McCabe checked the camera to see if it had film in it! So McCabe allegedly left the Imperial Reflex at Ruth Paine's house and told other inquiring detectives to ignore it, the FBI completely missed it themselves, and then Robert Oswald supposedly took it home from Ruth's house on December 8, 1963, (although Ruth saw him take some of Lee's things that day, she didn't see him take the Imperial Reflex "because it was in a box of Lee's things that I didn't look into"), and then Robert allegedly turned the camera over to the FBI, upon request, on February 24, 1964. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

In Accessories After the Fact, Sylvia Meagher quotes Ruth Paine's March 21, 1964, WC testimony as saying that Oswald once showed her a camera he had bought in Russia, and complained to her that he couldn't buy film for it in the U.S. because of a size difference, and Meagher goes on to suggest that since only "two" (actually three) photographs are known to have been taken in the U.S. with the (American made) Imperial Reflex camera -- the backyard backyard photos -- the camera Oswald was complaining about must have been the Imperial Reflex.

If Sylvia had done a little more research, she would have found out that the Imperial Reflex camera was made by a Chicago, Illinois, based company, and that Robert Oswald told the FBI after the assassination that Lee had bought it in 1957 and had not taken it to Russia with him, but had stored it at Robert's house. Lee bought a much smaller camera, the Cuera-2 or Smerna-2 (35mm), in Russia, so that must have been the one he was complaining about to Ruth Paine, not the Imperial Reflex.

https://books.google.com/books?id=9XEhAgAAQBAJ&pg=PT212&lpg=PT212&dq=oswald+%22imperial+reflex%22+paine&source=bl&ots=yIkkvQvWdC&sig=pHz6yCzP8qicqhMzzDIegEtpEyc&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAWoVChMI8pjKy6mOxwIVlDSICh0tqAU5#v=onepage&q=oswald%20%22imperial%20reflex%22%20paine&f=false

After a little so-called "research" on my part, I found out that Oswald owned at least three cameras which were taken from Paine's house after the assassination: 1 ) The American made Imperial Reflex 620, 2 ) an American made Stereo Realist novelty camera (it took stereo pictures), 3 ) a Russian made Cuera-2 or Smerna-2 35mm camera, and possibly a fourth camera -- the infamous Minox "spy camera".

BTW, It's interesting to note that Marina, in her WC testimony, said the camera she took the backyard photos with was black, but a February, 1964, FBI report claims that she told them it was grayish in color, like aluminium.

The body was silver-grey and made of Bakelite plastic:

Final thought for now: If Prayer Man had been holding this camera in Wiegman and Darnell / Couch, I think its light color would have been highly visible in those films.

Edited while you guys were posting, so I'm bumping it.

Now for two questions for Vanessa:

I've read that a Coke bottle was found on the left side of the steps, but I haven't heard that the remains of a lunch was found on the steps. Could you please tell me where you heard that so I can "check it out?"

I like your idea that Oswald might have been in the storage room simply to put his camera in there, but I'm thinking that if I had a camera with me and the President had just been assassinated about 50 yards away from me, I'd want to get as many pictures of the "aftermath" as I could. (Might make some money that way!) Of course Lee could have run out of film before Baker started running towards the steps and simply decided to put his camera away in a safe place.....

I've also read today an FBI statement or report alleging that Robert Oswald told them that there was no film in the Imperial Reflex when he took it from Paine's house on December 8, that Lee had stored it at Robert's house while he was in Russia, and that Robert returned it to him in August of 1962. http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/wc/wcvols/wh25/pdf/WH25_CE_2557.pdf

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman still were), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Robert Prudhomme]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman still were), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

And the amazing thing is that any one of these speculative scenarios has a chance of being true.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Of course, Williams only saw the top of the cop's helmet, and Roy Truly was a much shorter man.

[Thomas Graves]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman and Norman still were at the west window), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

Mr. BALL. Now, when you were questioned by the FBI agents, talking to Mr. Odum and Mr. Griffin, they reported in writing here that while you were standing at the west end of the building on the fifth floor, a police officer came up on the elevator and looked all around the fifth floor and left the floor. Did you see anything like that?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Well, at the time I was up there I saw a motorcycle policeman. He came up. And the only thing I saw of him was his white helmet.

Mr. BALL. What did he

Mr. WILLIAMS. He just came around, and around to the elevator.

Mr. BALL. Which elevator?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I believe it was the east elevator.

Mr. BALL. Did you see anybody with him?

Mr. WILLIAMS. I did not.

Mr. BALL. You were only able to see the top of his helmet?

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir.

Mr. BALL. You could only see the top of his helmet

Mr. WILLIAMS. Yes, sir; that is the only thing I saw about it.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

And the amazing thing is that any one of these speculative scenarios has a chance of being true.

Yep! Even yours, Robert. (LOL)

.....And edited, of course.

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Ian Lloyd]

Seriously, Thomas, PM looks quite relaxed standing in the corner at the top of the steps. Baker's total time, from the second he heard the last shot, until he rode his bike to the sidewalk, parked it and was inside the front of the TSBD, was only 20 seconds. From where he is in the still, until he is inside the door, is going to consume no more than 2-3 seconds.

Do you really think there is time for Lewis to open the door and for Oswald to not only scurry inside but duck into the closet under the stairs? After, of course, moving Frazier out of the way.

Yes, Robert, I do.

That Oswald was a quick and furtive little devil.

Either that or Baker and / or Truly and / or Campbell and / or Reid encountered / saw Oswald in his "Prayer Man" position on the top step and changed their stories from first (Campbell and at least one unidentified "other" -- Reid? Truly? Baker?) seeing him in a ground floor storage room, to finally, Baker's and Truly's encountering him in the ... the second floor lunchroom! (With some "third or fourth floor" versions along the way.)

You know, Baker may have started running up the front steps but paused for some reason before going inside, giving that sneaky little Oswald more than enough time to run inside and grab his apple, or whatever.

Heck, Oswald might have opened the door for Baker, or strolled ahead of him in full view to the storage room where Baker might have asked him where the elevator or stairs to the top floors / roof were located, during which conversation Campbell and Truly and Reid might have strolled in and "seen" Oswald in the storage room.

Here's a wild idea. Maybe Oswald, "hip" to the assassination or "fake assassination attempt," was taking photos of the "Actors" (so to speak) and then Baker ran up to him on the steps and took his camera away. "Sorry, kid, I gotta confiscate your camera. Tell you what. Come on up with me to the second floor lunchroom and I'll buy you a Coke!"

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Her lens is glowing like Prayer Man's:

Doesn't light need to enter the top viewfinder lens of the camera in order for that light to be reflected back out through the front viewfinder lens? Was there sufficient light in the PM position for that to happen? Also, the circle of light in the PM clips seems larger than the viewfinder lens? (On the ROKC forum, someone did a test with his son standing in a porchway in similar conditions of shade to the PM scenario with a similar camera and could not reproduce the effect).

[Thomas Graves]

Seriously, Thomas, PM looks quite relaxed standing in the corner at the top of the steps. Baker's total time, from the second he heard the last shot, until he rode his bike to the sidewalk, parked it and was inside the front of the TSBD, was only 20 seconds. From where he is in the still, until he is inside the door, is going to consume no more than 2-3 seconds.

Do you really think there is time for Lewis to open the door and for Oswald to not only scurry inside but duck into the closet under the stairs? After, of course, moving Frazier out of the way.

Yes, Robert, I do.

That Oswald was a quick and furtive little devil.

Either that or Baker and / or Truly and / or Campbell and / or Reid encountered / saw Oswald in his "Prayer Man" position on the top step and changed their stories from first (Campbell and at least one unidentified "other" -- Reid? Truly? Baker?) seeing him in a ground floor storage room, to finally, Baker's and Truly's encountering him in the ... the second floor lunchroom! (With some "third or fourth floor" versions along the way.)

You know, Baker may have started running up the front steps but paused for some reason before going inside, giving that sneaky little Oswald more than enough time to run inside and grab his apple, or whatever.

Heck, Oswald might have opened the door for Baker, or strolled ahead of him in full view to the storage room where Baker might have asked him where the elevator or stairs to the top floors / roof were located, during which conversation Campbell and Truly and Reid might have strolled in and "seen" Oswald in the storage room.

Here's a wild idea. Maybe Oswald, "hip" to the assassination or "fake assassination attempt," was taking photos of the "Actors" (so to speak) and then Baker ran up to him on the steps and took his camera away. "Sorry, kid, I gotta confiscate your camera. Tell you what. Come on up with me to the second floor lunchroom and I'll buy you a Coke!"

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Her lens is glowing like Prayer Man's:

Doesn't light need to enter the top viewfinder lens of the camera in order for that light to be reflected back out through the front viewfinder lens? Was there sufficient light in the PM position for that to happen? Also, the circle of light in the PM clips seems larger than the viewfinder lens? (On the ROKC forum, someone did a test with his son standing in a porchway in similar conditions of shade to the PM scenario with a similar camera and could not reproduce the effect).

Since Prayer Man was pointing his twin lens reflex camera in the general direction of the sun, enough light was entering it through the upper "viewing" or "reflex" lens so that half (?) of it, after being bounced back in the direction of the lens by the 45-degree-angled mirror inside and then allowed to escape out through that lens, escaped with sufficient intensity as to make the lens appear to be glowing to an observer. It doesn't matter that he was standing in the shade because he wasn't pointing his TLR at a poorly-lit object, he was pointing it in the general direction of the sun. In fact, it's easier for the observer to see that glowing lens when the camera is in the shade due to the contrast between the "dark" shade and the "light" glow. That's my take on it, Ian. Please correct me if I've made any technical mistakes.

This forum won't allow us to post here any photos from certain websites (at least that's my understanding), so I'm unable to post some good photographs which demonstrate what I'm talking about.

In order to view this phenomenon, what it takes is for someone with a twin lens reflex camera to point it at a strong light source and at a mirror at the same time in order to create a kind of "selfie" photograph which shows the glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens of the camera, or for another photographer with any kind of camera to take a head-on photograph of someone who is standing in the shade and pointing their TLR towards the sun.

That's why I suggest googling "Vivian Maier" in quotation marks and then clicking on "images" (instead of "web") to see two full pages of Vivian Meirer's photographs, a few of which were taken in the aforementioned "selfie" way and which, therefore, show her glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens even though she's standing in shade.

Or you might want to check out Linda's excellent "photo album"

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/photos/album?albumid=15889118

and blog

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13218499

on the ROKC website.

Regarding "PM's circle of light seeming larger that the diameter of his lens," Oswald's Imperial Reflex was a shiny silvery-grey in color, "like aluminum," so maybe that had something to do with it.

--Tommy

Edited August 4, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman still were), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman still were), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

Okay Tommy but I don't think that scenario is supported by any of the first day press reports or affidavits which I'm still giving some credit to. Are you discounting all the first day statements? Because then we really get into completely uncharted waters. Although, I guess, it is actually possible that they are all a mixture of half-truths and non-truths as well. Gawd, it'd be nice to have some certainty in this case.

[Vanessa Loney]

Thanks Tommy - there was a paper lunch bag next to the coke bottle in the same photo (the photographer's name escapes me at the moment but it gets discussed back on the thread by SM).

Calling it an 'idea' might be dignifying it a bit more than it deserves I think. My wild, unfounded guess that Oswald could have dumped the camera in the storage room is nothing more than that. But I agree it does beg the question, if he was innocent, why dump the camera.

I tend to agree with Bob on the issue of Oswald not having time to get inside before Baker got to him. It's possible, but I think the press reports support the idea that their encounter happened outside the door. (Although I am glad to see Bob has got Baker onto those steps at least).

But it's occurred to me that if the camera flashlight in Weigman is in fact the light reflecting off the bottom of a coke bottle as it's being drunk out of (as some claim) then maybe in Weigman we should be able to identify the fact that the coke is not next to the steps. Because the coke cannot be being drunk by LHO and on the steps at the same time.

Ahem. Barto - got any time to verify that there is only one coke bottle in Weigman? It'd prove your point that Oswald isn't holding a camera.

Vanessa,

I'm kinda gravitating to the idea that Baker ran right past Oswald on the steps without paying any attention to him, and went up to the fifth floor and searched it by himself (Bonnie Ray Williams told the FBI that right after the shots, a policeman (he could see the top of his white motorcycle helmet) came off the elevator and pretty thoroughly searched the fifth floor where Williams and Jarman still were), and then left. Meanwhile, Oswald had put his camera away in the small storage room by the front door (because he'd run out of film), and was encountered there by Campbell and someone else (Reid?, Truly?), and then when the "fix" came in, all of them started changing their stories.

http://jfkassassination.net/russ/testimony/williams.htm

Case Closed ( LOL )

--Tommy

And the amazing thing is that any one of these speculative scenarios has a chance of being true.

True, I could still go either way on whatever it is that PM is holding, if anything.

[Ray Mitcham]

"Since Prayer Man was pointing his twin lens reflex camera in the general direction of the sun, enough light was entering it through the upper "viewing" or "reflex" lens so that half (?) of it,"

​He was standing in shade so he couldn't have been pointing the camera in the direction of the sun.

[Ian Lloyd]

Seriously, Thomas, PM looks quite relaxed standing in the corner at the top of the steps. Baker's total time, from the second he heard the last shot, until he rode his bike to the sidewalk, parked it and was inside the front of the TSBD, was only 20 seconds. From where he is in the still, until he is inside the door, is going to consume no more than 2-3 seconds.

Do you really think there is time for Lewis to open the door and for Oswald to not only scurry inside but duck into the closet under the stairs? After, of course, moving Frazier out of the way.

Yes, Robert, I do.

That Oswald was a quick and furtive little devil.

Either that or Baker and / or Truly and / or Campbell and / or Reid encountered / saw Oswald in his "Prayer Man" position on the top step and changed their stories from first (Campbell and at least one unidentified "other" -- Reid? Truly? Baker?) seeing him in a ground floor storage room, to finally, Baker's and Truly's encountering him in the ... the second floor lunchroom! (With some "third or fourth floor" versions along the way.)

You know, Baker may have started running up the front steps but paused for some reason before going inside, giving that sneaky little Oswald more than enough time to run inside and grab his apple, or whatever.

Heck, Oswald might have opened the door for Baker, or strolled ahead of him in full view to the storage room where Baker might have asked him where the elevator or stairs to the top floors / roof were located, during which conversation Campbell and Truly and Reid might have strolled in and "seen" Oswald in the storage room.

Here's a wild idea. Maybe Oswald, "hip" to the assassination or "fake assassination attempt," was taking photos of the "Actors" (so to speak) and then Baker ran up to him on the steps and took his camera away. "Sorry, kid, I gotta confiscate your camera. Tell you what. Come on up with me to the second floor lunchroom and I'll buy you a Coke!"

--Tommy

edited and bumped

Her lens is glowing like Prayer Man's:

Doesn't light need to enter the top viewfinder lens of the camera in order for that light to be reflected back out through the front viewfinder lens? Was there sufficient light in the PM position for that to happen? Also, the circle of light in the PM clips seems larger than the viewfinder lens? (On the ROKC forum, someone did a test with his son standing in a porchway in similar conditions of shade to the PM scenario with a similar camera and could not reproduce the effect).

Since Prayer Man was pointing his twin lens reflex camera in the general direction of the sun, enough light was entering it through the upper "viewing" or "reflex" lens so that half (?) of it, after being bounced back in the direction of the lens by the 45-degree-angled mirror inside and then allowed to escape out through that lens, escaped with sufficient intensity as to make the lens appear to be glowing to an observer. It doesn't matter that he was standing in the shade because he wasn't pointing his TLR at a poorly-lit object, he was pointing it in the general direction of the sun. In fact, it's easier for the observer to see that glowing lens when the camera is in the shade due to the contrast between the "dark" shade and the "light" glow. That's my take on it, Ian. Please correct me if I've made any technical mistakes.

This forum won't allow us to post here any photos from certain websites (at least that's my understanding), so I'm unable to post some good photographs which demonstrate what I'm talking about.

In order to view this phenomenon, what it takes is for someone with a twin lens reflex camera to point it at a strong light source and at a mirror at the same time in order to create a kind of "selfie" photograph which shows the glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens of the camera, or for another photographer with any kind of camera to take a head-on photograph of someone who is standing in the shade and pointing their TLR towards the sun.

That's why I suggest googling "Vivian Maier" in quotation marks and then clicking on "images" (instead of "web") to see two full pages of Vivian Meirer's photographs, a few of which were taken in the aforementioned "selfie" way and which, therefore, show her glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens even though she's standing in shade.

Or you might want to check out Linda's excellent "photo album"

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/photos/album?albumid=15889118

and blog

http://www.reopenkennedycase.org/apps/forums/topics/show/13218499

on the ROKC website.

Regarding "PM's circle of light seeming larger that the diameter of his lens," Oswald's Imperial Reflex was a shiny silvery-grey in color, "like aluminum," so maybe that had something to do with it.

--Tommy

and blog

http://www.reopenken...s/show/13218499

on the ROKC website.

Page 8 at the above...

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Ian

The sun would have been lower in the sky on November 22 than it was on July 25.

Sincerely,

--Tommy

Edited August 5, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Linda Giovanna Zambanini]

Tommy said:

Since Prayer Man was pointing his twin lens reflex camera in the general direction of the sun, enough light was entering it through the upper "viewing" or "reflex" lens so that half (?) of it, after being bounced back in the direction of the lens by the 45-degree-angled mirror inside and then allowed to escape out through that lens, escaped with sufficient intensity as to make the lens appear to be glowing to an observer. It doesn't matter that he was standing in the shade because he wasn't pointing his TLR at a poorly-lit object, he was pointing it in the general direction of the sun. In fact, it's easier for the observer to see that glowing lens when the camera is in the shade due to the contrast between the "dark" shade and the "light" glow. That's my take on it, Ian. Please correct me if I've made any technical mistakes.

This forum won't allow us to post here any photos from certain websites (at least that's my understanding), so I'm unable to post some good photographs which demonstrate what I'm talking about.

In order to view this phenomenon, what it takes is for someone with a twin lens reflex camera to point it at a strong light source and at a mirror at the same time in order to create a kind of "selfie" photograph which shows the glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens of the camera, or for another photographer with any kind of camera to take a head-on photograph of someone who is standing in the shade and pointing their TLR towards the sun.

That's why I suggest googling "Vivian Maier" in quotation marks and then clicking on "images" (instead of "web") to see two full pages of Vivian Meirer's photographs, a few of which were taken in the aforementioned "selfie" way and which, therefore, show her glowing "viewing" or "reflex" lens even though she's standing in shade.

Or you might want to check out Linda's excellent "photo album"

http://www.reopenken...lbumid=15889118

and blog

http://www.reopenken...s/show/13218499

on the ROKC website.

Regarding "PM's circle of light seeming larger that the diameter of his lens," Oswald's Imperial Reflex was a shiny silvery-grey in color, "like aluminum," so maybe that had something to do with it.

--Tommy

Thank you, Tommy!

Exactly right - thank you for pointing out that it doesn't' matter that PM is standing in the shade! Indeed, it matters not that PM is standing in the shade - what matters is his camera - and the 45 degree mirror behind the top "reflex lens" - is pointing TOWARD a light source. He has no light source behind him or above him but he has light in front of him! The southern noon-day sun light! If he didn't he wouldn't be able to take photos.

This is well-demonstrated in the numerous photos of Vivian Maier and her Rolleiflex, which I have uploaded at ROKC - demonstrating this very effect. When she is taking a selfie in a dark room and only has background light behind her, but is shooting toward a mirror in an otherwise dark room - we see the top "reflex lens" is almost black - one has to pay particular attention to see that the top reflex lens has a very, very, VERY faint grayish tinge to the lens - whereas the bottom "taking lens" remains completely black (as it always does). But if she is shooting toward any light source one will see the white light from the top reflex lens. On cloudy days - or as the camera is angled from the viewer's view - the light will look dimmer. But if it's very sunny day or she's in a room brightly lit with artificial light (and if she has the camera angled toward us) - the effect is a brilliant round white light being emitted from the reflex lens!

Here's Vivian's selfie I referred to which she took in a dark room with only background light:

Example of the phenomenon with the Imperial Reflex 620:

Buell Frazier won't even admit to ONE camera on the steps - let alone 2!! So, it's no wonder all this repeated questioning of him about cameras and that mysterious guy to the right of him in the dark corner, by both Gary Mack and Gayle Nix Jackson, have made him break out in nervous ticks and grammar melt-downs! Buell has a lotta 'splainin to do' - as does Molina and anyone else around the steps who is still alive! But, indeed, there were at least 2 TLR cameras on the steps that day! We can see PM's small TLR reflex light and also a HUGE brilliant white reflex light from another larger, much more sophisticated TLR. We can see BOTH of them in the Towner and Martin Films (in Towner PM's smaller reflex light is intermittent.) Here's Martin:

Here's a great animated gif from Robin Unger's gallery of that Martin clip that especially captures the big reflex light http://www.jfkassassinationgallery.com/displayimage.php?pid=6312&fullsize=1

And here's the 2 of them seen in the Towner Film:

Here's the link for the album of PM photos i created at Imgur - but there are many more in my album at ROKC that goes with my essay/thread there. I just created this Imjur album because it was the only way i could get my photos to "appear" here when i posted links to them. http://imgur.com/a/TjftX#0

ADDENDUM / EDIT: I just noticed that though it appears in the Martin still, as if the smaller white light above which you can see the dark top of someone's head, which appears to be someone with a small TLR (like PM) is NOT! If you look at the animated gif - which I just did again - one can see that what appears to be a stationary bright white light is a waving, moving hand. So in Martin we only see the one large TLR camera. Now in Towner you see the big TLR all the time, and PM's much smaller TLR, only rarely and intermittently.

And one other thing, Tommy, speaking of Vivian Maier's selfies - she is known as "The Queen of the Selfies". Thank you Vivian! Without your inspiration we would not be discussing this right now!

Edited August 7, 2015 by Linda Giovanna Zambanini