David Josephs Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 Just a quick side note... the point about the shirt being changed is critical to many things that follow... Specifically Bledsoe's testimony id'ing him on the bus... along with Cecil McWatters and Roy Milton.... this is a description of the arrest shirt AFTER the fight tearing off 3 buttons and ripping the elbow... The only way Bledsoe puts him in that shirt on that bus is if she was provided with the info.... Oswald was not in that shirt and was never on that bus... and McWatters admitted so*. Mr. BALL - Now, what color shirt did he have on? Mrs. BLEDSOE - He had a brown shirt. Mr. BALL - And unraveled? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Hole in his sleeve right here [indicating]. Mr. BALL - Which is the elbow of the sleeve? That is, you pointed to the elbow? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Well, it is. Mr. BALL - And that would be which elbow, right or left elbow? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Right. Mr. BALL - Did he have anything on. Was the shirt open or was it buttoned? Mrs. BLEDSOE - Yes; all the buttons torn off. Mr. BALL - What did he have on underneath that? Mrs. BLEDSOE - I don't know. Mr. BALL - Do you know the color of any undershirt he had on? Mrs. BLEDSOE - No. *First paragraph... Bledsoe was lying... the taxi cab driver and the 2 coats, both the wrong color.... E. Roberts says no jacket at all when Oswald comes thru... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 50 minutes ago, David Josephs said: With regards to something in his hands.... you feel he'd hold a camera in the same position, not moving his hands or separating them at all? Well sure. I mean it's a two-hand camera. You hold it with two hands. When you think you might take a shot, you raise it to face level with both hands. If PM had nothing in his hands, he would just drop them. He wouldn't keep holding them up like that. 50 minutes ago, David Josephs said: This is before and after... nothing seems to have moved at all... He raised whatever he was holding to face level. We had a long discussion regarding this in the spring of 2016. Somebody (maybe Chris Davidson) made a very nice animated gif showing prayer man raising the object up to his face. Some said he was drinking a coke. I didn't buy that because men don't drink cokes with two hands. Unfortunately the gif is no longer there, having been consumed my Photobucket's new policy. However I did find a frame that shows Prayer Man with the object raised up to his face: (Ignore the rightmost distorted image.) See... PM has raised his right hand more than his left hand, thus rotating the camera to its correct upright position. (His left hand is holding the bottom of the camera to steady it.) The bright spot get's brighter because it is now getting its light from the white ceiling. 50 minutes ago, David Josephs said: The head is not bent over to look down into a camera. The camera user has the choice of looking down into the viewfinder or raising the camera to face level and looking straight into the viewfinder. I showed that to you with this diagram: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) On 9/8/2017 at 10:46 AM, David Josephs said: Not true... he changed out of a Briarloom Traditionals shirt which he left with his pants in his dresser after changing at Beckley. One of the first exhibits the FBI/DPD did not take a photo of.... but they took the overshirt to DC that night... With regards to something in his hands.... you feel he'd hold a camera in the same position, not moving his hands or separating them at all? This is before and after... nothing seems to have moved at all... The head is not bent over to look down into a camera... I just don't see it that way I guess... From Bookout's report: Well if Oswald was wearing that shirt (and I have no reason to doubt he was), he'd have to have rolled the sleeves up above his elbows in order for him to be Prayer Man. I think that researchers are generally unaware of the evidence you posted here. Because I've seen many who think he was wearing at work the same clothes he had on when taken custody, and others who think it is unknown what he was wearing at work. And I've never seen any of the Pray Man advocates explain how it was that Prayer Man seemed not to be wearing a long sleeve shirt. Edited September 10, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 5 minutes ago, Sandy Larsen said: Well if Oswald was wearing that shirt (and I have no reason to doubt he was), he'd have to have rolled the sleeves up above his elbows in order for him to be Prayer Man. I think that researchers are generally unaware of the evidence you posted here. Because I've seen many who think he was wearing the same clothes he had on when taken custody, and others who think it is unknown what he was wearing at work. And I've never seen any of the Pray Man advocates explain how it was that Prayer Man seemed not to be wearing a long sleeve shirt. To be fair... we don't know what the Briarloom shirt looked like... but it was a button-down, and the shirt he was arrest in was not... The changing of his clothes is acknowledged by 3 independent sources: Fritz, Bookout and Kelley in their interview reports... ( Hosty too I think ) I can't know everything offered related to PM so if you say so... but it doesn't look like PM has long sleeves... and he appears with Lovelady... Shelley is to Lovelady's left and closer to the door... I don't see Wesley in Altgens. Lovelady gets from the right side of the opening to the center WHILE the motorcade is passing by... and is then over to the left of the opening in color.... (looking out from TSBD) Have you or anyone come across anything that corroborates Lovelady moving to his left during the motorcade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 8, 2017 Share Posted September 8, 2017 (edited) [deleted] Edited September 8, 2017 by Sandy Larsen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted September 9, 2017 Share Posted September 9, 2017 Here's what he had on when they took him out of the picture show. Same shirt you see him wearing at the police department. I was under the impression that he only "...changed his britches" after he left the TSBD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 (edited) On 9/8/2017 at 7:07 PM, Sandy Larsen said: Well sure. I mean it's a two-hand camera. You hold it with two hands. When you think you might take a shot, you raise it to face level with both hands. If PM had nothing in his hands, he would just drop them. He wouldn't keep holding them up like that. He raised whatever he was holding to face level. We had a long discussion regarding this in the spring of 2016. Somebody (maybe Chris Davidson) made a very nice animated gif showing prayer man raising the object up to his face. Some said he was drinking a coke. I didn't buy that because men don't drink cokes with two hands. Unfortunately the gif is no longer there, having been consumed my Photobucket's new policy. However I did find a frame that shows Prayer Man with the object raised up to his face: (Ignore the rightmost distorted image.) See... PM has raised his right hand more than his left hand, thus rotating the camera to its correct upright position. (His left hand is holding the bottom of the camera to steady it.) The bright spot get's brighter because it is now getting its light from the white ceiling. The camera user has the choice of looking down into the viewfinder or raising the camera to face level and looking straight into the viewfinder. I showed that to you with this diagram: Sandy, you've illustrated a Rollei camera. As far as I can remember, the Imperial Reflex didn't have an eye level viewfinder. So there would be no reason for it to be brought up to eye level. Edited September 11, 2017 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 On 9/9/2017 at 7:44 AM, Michael Walton said: Here's what he had on when they took him out of the picture show. Same shirt you see him wearing at the police department. I was under the impression that he only "...changed his britches" after he left the TSBD. In all the Interview reports as well as Fritz's... they all say he "said" he changed his button down shirt and pants... They also claim he took the bus all the say home and/or to the theater... FWIW I think this was the Beckley bus and not McWatters' bus going down Zang. He took a bus, just not McWatters' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 11, 2017 Share Posted September 11, 2017 On 9/8/2017 at 1:09 AM, Sandy Larsen said: I'm glad you point out that other possibility, David. If that were the case, the man stepping back might be Prayer Man. (I have a feeling that that was not the case, because I think that Prayer man was holding something in his two hands. A camera iMO.) Where did the camera go? My understanding is that no camera resembling the one you're describing was found by the police in Oswald's room or at the Paine house and that the mysterious Imperial Reflex surfaced in the hands of Robert Oswald after supposedly having been overlooked or ignored by the police when they searched the Paine house. I think it's entirely possible that PM (or PW, as the case may be) was holding a camera, but doesn't that point strongly AWAY from PM being LHO? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 11 hours ago, Ray Mitcham said: On 9/8/2017 at 0:07 PM, Sandy Larsen said: Well sure. I mean it's a two-hand camera. You hold it with two hands. When you think you might take a shot, you raise it to face level with both hands. If PM had nothing in his hands, he would just drop them. He wouldn't keep holding them up like that. He raised whatever he was holding to face level. We had a long discussion regarding this in the spring of 2016. Somebody (maybe Chris Davidson) made a very nice animated gif showing prayer man raising the object up to his face. Some said he was drinking a coke. I didn't buy that because men don't drink cokes with two hands. Unfortunately the gif is no longer there, having been consumed my Photobucket's new policy. However I did find a frame that shows Prayer Man with the object raised up to his face: (Ignore the rightmost distorted image.) See... PM has raised his right hand more than his left hand, thus rotating the camera to its correct upright position. (His left hand is holding the bottom of the camera to steady it.) The bright spot get's brighter because it is now getting its light from the white ceiling. The camera user has the choice of looking down into the viewfinder or raising the camera to face level and looking straight into the viewfinder. I showed that to you with this diagram: Sandy, you've illustrated a Rollei camera. As far as I can remember, the Imperial Reflex didn't have an eye level viewfinder. So there would be no reason for it to be brought up to eye level. Ray, I used the Rollei camera as an example of what we seem to see in the film. I didn't say that Prayer Man was Oswald nor that Prayer Man was using an Imperial Reflex camera. Not to say that PM wasn't Oswald. Oswald could have been using a Rollei or other such camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandy Larsen Posted September 12, 2017 Share Posted September 12, 2017 5 hours ago, Lance Payette said: On 9/8/2017 at 2:09 AM, Sandy Larsen said: I'm glad you point out that other possibility, David. If that were the case, the man stepping back might be Prayer Man. (I have a feeling that that was not the case, because I think that Prayer man was holding something in his two hands. A camera iMO.) Where did the camera go? My understanding is that no camera resembling the one you're describing was found by the police in Oswald's room or at the Paine house and that the mysterious Imperial Reflex surfaced in the hands of Robert Oswald after supposedly having been overlooked or ignored by the police when they searched the Paine house. I think it's entirely possible that PM (or PW, as the case may be) was holding a camera, but doesn't that point strongly AWAY from PM being LHO? Lance, If that indeed was Oswald taking photos of the procession during the shooting, it would be in the interest of those making Oswald a patsy to lose that camera. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 James Bookhout from 1968 newspaper, found by Steve Roe Denis Morisette made the connection with one of our ROKC scans, see below. Pic.: Jim Murray Black Star ROKC scan from the Richard E. Sprague Collection at the National Archives. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Walton Posted September 13, 2017 Share Posted September 13, 2017 Bill Simpich in State Secret explained it best about Oswald's whereabouts: https://www.maryferrell.org/pages/State_Secret_Chapter6.html LHO said he was "out front with Shelley," just like he said he was a patsy. Knowing what I know of the whole story, there's really no reason to doubt what he said. Oswald was just a worker drone like the rest of them so it's not like any of them were standing around accounting for everyone's presence or not. Their main focus was to see the parade and with LHO standing back in the shadows, we can't possibly expect 10 people to come up and say, "Yeah he was out there." When I was shooting news in Fountain Square in Cincinnati 25 years ago when Bush visited, do I remember the people who were standing in front of, next to, and behind me? Of course not. Taking all of this into account, I believe it's Oswald and I think it has the general appearance of him in the film. To be honest, arguing whether he's holding a camera, a cup of coffee, or a box of chocolates is beside the point. We'll never really know with 100% certainty unless the TV station releases a pristine copy of the film from the negative for further analysis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/13/2017 at 4:21 PM, Michael Walton said: LHO said he was "out front with Shelley," just like he said he was a patsy. #1 - this is Fritz claiming weeks later what Oswald said... his notes were not extemporaneous #2 - as written, he is "out front with Shelley" after the officer with Truly stop him FBI Agent Bookout offers a slightly different take on that single line scrawled by Fritz well after the fact... Bookout is describing what he heard Oswald say... Fritz's notes were from memory much later... This is either complete FBI BS to back-up the Fritz Baker Truly story... (which I believe) or it is accurate... Having proven on a great thread here - the 2nd floor lunchroom encounter could not have happened as offered as well as conflicts with Baker's same day affidavit. Probably never happened at all... This appears to be an attempt to move "prayerman=oswald" inside the building since it really was Oswald "out with Bill Shelley in front" during the assassination. I should add that Shelley claims Mr. Viles was on the landing with the rest of the people: Mr. SHELLEY - Well, there was Lloyd Viles of McGraw-Hill, Sarah Stanton, she's with Texas School Book, and Wesley Frazier and Billy Lovelady joined us shortly afterwards.Mr. BALL - You were standing where?Mr. SHELLEY - Just outside the glass doors there.Mr. BALL - That would be on the top landing of the entrance? Mr. SHELLEY - yes. Except Mr. Viles tells us he was somewhere else..... Looks to me that Shelley switches Viles for Oswald.... thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 I need to add that the questions asked related to this signed statement were were the same for evey one... They were basically pre-written Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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