Pat Speer Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 HAVE those trigger guard prints been identified conclusively as Oswald's? You're not aware of Vincent Scalice's 1993 conclusions about the trigger guard prints positively being Oswald's? (More below, plus a video clip.) http://jfk-archives.blogspot.com/2010/07/mannlicher-carcano.html#Vincent-Scalice-And-The-Trigger-Guard-Prints Let's be fair, David. The producers of Frontline who brought in Scalice also talked to a far more qualified fingerprint expert, an FBI agent named George Bonebrake, who refused to sign off on Scalice's conclusions, and said his methods were unreliable. There are other problems as well. 1. Scalice NEVER presented a comparison photo showing how the DPD's photos of the smudged prints matched up with Oswald's, and NEVER presented his conclusions to a peer-reviewed journal etc. (If you've seen one, please post it online, as I'd love to see it for myself.) 2. Scalice later undermined his credibility by selling himself not as a fingerprint expert, but as a questioned documents expert, and making paid appearances saying Vince Foster's suicide note was a forgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 (edited) For the record, I'll add this WC testimony from J.C. Day of the DPD, with Day stating that he thought that at least one "trigger housing" print was Oswald's, but he couldn't say definitely whether it was or not.... Mr. McCLOY. Can you restate again for the record what you can positively identify in terms of fingerprints or palmprints and Oswald's---- Mr. DAY. The palmprint on the box he apparently sat on I can definitely say it is his without being in fear of any error. The other, I think it is his, but I couldn't say definitely on a witness stand. Mr. McCLOY. By the other, you mean the other palmprint? Mr. DAY. The palmprint and that tracer print aside the trigger housing or the magazine housing. --------------- Earlier in his testimony, Lt. Day also said: "Your No. 637 is the right palm of Oswald." I have no idea why Day didn't include the CE637 LHO rifle palmprint when answering John McCloy's question above. Edited January 26, 2014 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Anyone who still believes the M91/38 Carcano found on the 6th floor of the TSBD was capable of the performance credited to it on 22/11/63, is simply not paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gene Kelly Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 I was recently watching the Alyea portion of Robert Groden's DVD "The Assassination Films" and I heard Groden say something as the Alyea film was being shown on the screen that I had totally forgotten about. Groden claims that Billy Lovelady said at some point after Nov. 22 that he was up on the sixth floor when a rifle was first discovered and that the footage we see in Tom Alyea's film (below) is merely a re-creation. It's all a staged/fake scene of Lt. Day pulling the rifle out from behind the book cartons. Of course, the person who filmed all that activity which certainly shows a CARCANO and not a MAUSER, Tom Alyea, has never said a word about his footage only depicting a re-creation. So I guess Groden must believe Alyea was really filming the "staged" event much LATER in the day, right? Or did the DPD just happen to have Oswald's Carcano right there with them in the building, in order to plant it behind the boxes at about 1:30 PM and then "stage" the finding of a SECOND rifle. And apparently Will Fritz or J.C. Day must have acted as film directors and told Alyea when to start filming the fake/staged scene. Plus, there were a variety of TV and radio reports [some of which can be seen in the video below] that incorrectly labelled the rifle found on the sixth floor as all kinds of different types of weapons -- such as an Argentine Mauser, a German Mauser, a Japanese rifle, and a British .303 rifle. David (and David): Doesn't it seem out of the ordinary that police would allow a news photographer to videotape the early moments of an evidence search? Alyea not only gets into the TSBD and is allowed onto the crime scene, but he photographs the critical collection/discovery of evidence. I can see a crime photographer from the DPD... but a newsman? And he is allowed to leave TSBD with his camera and film... and then its broadcast on TV? In contast, others' cameras are purportedly being confiscated by the FBI and SS as key evidence (e.g. Z film)... some allegedly taken and destroyed. I'm resisting seeing evil in everyone and everything associated with the case. But I cannot see police allowing that to happen in this day and age, much less at the scene of a presidential assassination. - Gene Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 But the paper trail for BOTH Oswald's rifle and revolver mail-order purchases couldn't be more concrete and definitive. Sorry David, this statement is about as misleading and dishonest as they come... A paper trail for the Kleins rifle would include examples of C20-T750 orders shipped FC instead of TS rifles... the claim the FBI and Kleins is making... instead the microfilm with the orders is gone The trail would include a payment stamp on the Money Order, not a Kleins stamp alone The trail would include the signed receipt for picking up the rifle The trail would include the fact that 40" rifles rec'd scopes and were sold that way, instead of ONLY the 36" models The trail would explain how a package to HIDELL does not get refused at OSWALD's POBox The paper trail is full of holes with suggestions of the FBI creating the one and only link between the order and the name... Waldman writing VC836 and C2766 IN PENCIL on the form Without those handwritten references there is nothing to related C2766 to Oswald or Hidell for that matter... Were these on the original forms? Don't know DVP... the originals are GONE... convenient, right? And if we go back farther into the history of C2766, it gets even more dubious... having to be one of only a handful which did not get their ID marks ground off.... - convenient. David... you make generic, blanket statement that require evidence and you provide none... it IS cause you deem it so, not cause the evidence supports it... or you wander off into a strawman Tell me David, you believe Alyea... why did Fritz reach down and pick up the shells from where they were PLANTED only to restage the scene again and again... for the DPD cameras? Or is only a PART of what he says to your liking so you only say THAT part is correct? ======= Here is the full image Pat... Is this Studebaker or Day instead? I thought it was from Alyea Furthermore, wasn't the rifle found on the opposite end of the 6th floor? Appears as if there is light coming in the windows here... and NOT where the rifle was found... thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 Gene Excellent point. David J. Another excellent point about the sunlight on the rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas Graves Posted January 26, 2014 Share Posted January 26, 2014 [...] Here is the full image, Pat... Is this Studebaker or Day instead? I thought it was from Alyea Furthermore, wasn't the rifle found on the opposite end of the 6th floor? Appears as if there is light coming in the windows here... and NOT where the rifle was found... Thoughts? [emphasis added by T. Graves] Here's a thought for you, David. Maybe Studebaker / Day brought the rifle over here so he could look at it in the better light. Just a thought. --Tommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Von Pein Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) David (and David): Doesn't it seem out of the ordinary that police would allow a news photographer to videotape the early moments of an evidence search? Alyea not only gets into the TSBD and is allowed onto the crime scene, but he photographs the critical collection/discovery of evidence. I can see a crime photographer from the DPD... but a newsman? And he is allowed to leave TSBD with his camera and film... and then it's broadcast on TV? In contast, others' cameras are purportedly being confiscated by the FBI and SS as key evidence (e.g. Z film)... some allegedly taken and destroyed. I'm resisting seeing evil in everyone and everything associated with the case. But I cannot see police allowing that to happen in this day and age, much less at the scene of a presidential assassination. Interestingly and ironically, I have previously used that exact same type of argument to EXONERATE the police of any wrong-doing or evidence-planting, etc. Because if the cops were up on that 6th floor planting evidence and switching rifles around (and God knows what else), as many conspiracists seem to believe WAS happening shortly after 12:30 on November 22nd, then the LAST thing they'd want is a TV news cameraman FILMING all of this type of sinister activity. Does anyone think they'd WANT it on film?? That's kinda crazy. I do, however, think it was a bit crazy to allow Alyea to stay on the sixth floor--smack in the middle of the crime scene. He was allowed access to everything on the sixth floor, it would appear. And the excuse used by reporter Kent Biffle (who was also allowed to roam freely in the building, along with Alyea) that the police "were stuck with us; what were they going to do, throw us out a window?" is totally ridiculous [see "JFK: Breaking The News"; PBS-TV; 2003]. All the police needed to do, even after the building was officially "sealed off", would be to escort those two gentlemen (Alyea and Biffle) to the front door, then open the door to let the men exit the building, and then lock the door again after the men had left. Why on Earth was that impossible to do? And yet they didn't perform that simple door-opening task. Or at the very least, the police should have kept Alyea off of the "crime scene" floor. But they didn't perform that easy task either. ~big shrug~ In summary, I do not believe for even a second that the Dallas police and Sheriff's officers were on the sixth floor monkeying around with the evidence connected to the President's murder. And therefore, I certainly don't subscribe to the unsubstantiated theory that Tom Alyea filmed merely a "re-creation" of the rifle being discovered. It's particularly far-fetched to believe in such sinister and underhanded actions on the part of Dallas law enforcement officers when factoring in the SPEED in which such sinister actions would have been taking place. Do conspiracists actually believe that the Dallas cops were so swift and effective (and downright evil) that they wanted to frame Lee Harvey Oswald within literally minutes of the assassination taking place? Again, that's fairy tale time. Plus, do CTers think that the DPD just happened to have at their disposal Oswald's own Mannlicher-Carcano rifle to plant in the building very shortly after the shooting, so that Tom Alyea could film its discovery and then throw the film out a TSBD window so that the world would quickly be able to see that it was a Carcano being dusted by Lt. Day instead of the Mauser that many conspiracy theorists believe was first found on the sixth floor? How far down "This Is Insane!" Avenue is a person supposed to travel before slamming on the brakes and restoring their common sense? Edited January 27, 2014 by David Von Pein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I'm sorry about the confusion, David. The image that I didn't recall seeing wasn't the one at the bottom left, but the one at the top with the green circle. The location of the smudged prints seems obvious in that shot, when we can't make them out in the Alyea film, or in the films of Day with the rifle in the police station. I'm just trying to figure out when that shot was taken, and by who... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 (edited) No worries Pat... unlike so many these day... Just cause we disagree - passionately from time to time, does not mean we aren't on the same side trying to see the light of Day (pun intended) I'm pretty sure this came from Jack White... I had not seen what appears to be the remnants of a sticker (I don't think lifting a print would leave that much of a mark from the tape would it?) Yet it appears not to be there on the rifle at NARA.... Take care DJ (edit: the sling also is vbery suspect Pat.... could not be used to hold the rifle or steady it while shooting... yet is homemade and basically worthless - any ideas? Wasn't it a clue leading to the guy who riveted it together for "Oswald"? the guy at the garage I believe.... Kind of a useless add-on... given the rope we see in the BYP used as a sling.... Edited January 27, 2014 by David Josephs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The sling in the photo would be used to carry the rifle on your shoulder. It would not dig into the flesh as much as a simple rope sling would. No idea what the mark on the magazine would be, or if it would be something to do with fingerprint recovery. Besides, I thought the palm print was on the trigger guard, not the magazine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pat Speer Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 No worries Pat... unlike so many these day... Just cause we disagree - passionately from time to time, does not mean we aren't on the same side trying to see the light of Day (pun intended) I'm pretty sure this came from Jack White... I had not seen what appears to be the remnants of a sticker (I don't think lifting a print would leave that much of a mark from the tape would it?) Yet it appears not to be there on the rifle at NARA.... Take care DJ (edit: the sling also is vbery suspect Pat.... could not be used to hold the rifle or steady it while shooting... yet is homemade and basically worthless - any ideas? Wasn't it a clue leading to the guy who riveted it together for "Oswald"? the guy at the garage I believe.... Kind of a useless add-on... given the rope we see in the BYP used as a sling.... Thanks, David. I find this very interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 The sling in the photo would be used to carry the rifle on your shoulder. It would not dig into the flesh as much as a simple rope sling would. I have a muzzleloading rifle for deer hunting. My rifle has a sling on it, and I NEVER use the sling for any purpose other than for carrying the rifle on my shoulder. But from looking at the location of the pad on the sling--and the fact that it appears to be riveted, and is therefore not adjustable--it would appear that this sling was made for the purpose of carrying this rifle in a muzzle-down position ONLY. Or am I seeing things incorrectly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Prudhomme Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 LOL Good point, Mark. I never noticed that before. You seem to have a propensity for observing these little oddities. I think your explanation makes perfect sense, and it may have been a comfortable way to carry such a short weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Knight Posted January 27, 2014 Share Posted January 27, 2014 I have SOME experience with firearms as a hunter over the past 40+ years...but not so much that I would consider myself an "expert." It's just that, looking at the sling on the M-C in custody, I wonder why the pad--such as it is--isn't either [a] adjustable in its position, or set so that the rifle would be carried with the muzzle up, as SOP for most hunters. [Never been in the military, so I have no idea how they carry a rifle on a sling. I would assume it would be muzzle up as well, to prevent mud, snow, sand, etc. from plugging the barrel...but assumptions can be dangerous.] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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