Pat Speer Posted February 25, 2014 Author Share Posted February 25, 2014 Please cut the smoke, David. YOU posted some words as "Lipsey's statement" that were not his words. As far as the rest of it, I NEVER said the statements of the witnesses were consistent. This is EXACTLY my point. You can't expect people to remember an unimportant detail with consistency or accuracy. I have a chapter on the swearing in on the plane. Most witnesses noting the time for the swearing were within a few minutes of each other. But those noting the time of Mrs. Kennedy's arrival or Sarah Hughes' arrival on the plane or the time LBJ called RFK were incredibly inconsistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Pat - you just claimed that Jackie walked fro mthe morgue to the front entrance AFTER they dropped off the casket and YOU are calling ME out on accuracy... that's a laigh He claimed: "The one with the body in it went around to the back where the morgue was and we unloaded it." ONE = Hearse and "We had everything organized by that afternoon" POretty good trick given they were still going to REED and discussion it on AF-1.... http://www.history-matters.com/archive/jfk/hsca/med_testimony/Lipsey_1-18-78/HSCA-Lipsey.htm - What he ACTUALLY SAID http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=349&relPageId=1 What the HSCA WROTE he said When either one of you can explain the goings on between 6:40 and 8pm at Bethesda, we'll have something to talk about... Until then your games of he said she said are simply a diversion... Very good, David! You've shown what I've been saying all along. There are serious conflicts with the autopsy evidence. The x-rays show a downward trajectory and the autopsy report describes an upward trajectory. According to you Humes made alterations showing an upward one then reconstructed the head showing a downward one all in a matter of hours. Why would anyone do that? Who creates evidence that seriously conflicts with alterations they allegedly just made of the wounds? Why indeed Scott... but they did - that's the way it happened, so instead of asking WHY oh WHY to a question that cannot be answered.. PROVE IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. It took years and years just to pry this fraudulent evidence from the government's clutches... Humes claims a 6:45 time (or at least 7:30) for seeing JFK in the morgue... I just posted the FBI's statement - you know they guys who wrote "Surgery to the Top of the Head" - who completely blows Pat's "facts about what happened at Bethesda" out of the water from the very first second... So please... both of you... any chance you will post ANYTHING in defense of there not being alterations at Bethesda... you know.. show somone in Dallas who believes that everything forward the coronal suture on the right side extending to the occipital is gone... Just one. or you going to keep blowing smoke up everyone's a$$ and asking rhetorical WHY questions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 So please... both of you... any chance you will post ANYTHING in defense of there not being alterations at Bethesda... I've already posted the names of numerous Bethesda witnesses who described a wound in the right rear of the head several times already. Let me make it easier for you and narrow it down to two: James Siebert Frank O'Neill Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 25, 2014 Share Posted February 25, 2014 Scott.... These are the two men who carried an empty casket into the ante-room of the morgue and are then kicked out until AFTER 8pm... Let's try to remember the title of the thread Scott: Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head? And we are discussing the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE CREATED AT BETHESDA ... not what the FBI said about what they saw... We all know that actual witnesses differ with the EVIDENCE, that's the entire point there Scott... the fraudulent AUTOPSY EVIDENCE... which does not represent what most say they saw.. Would you PLEASE post an image of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that supports an occipital only blow-out - which is what, to a person, each of the wintesses claim was the only wound on JFK in DALLAS. Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it... WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you... ARRB SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 - when we were in that autopsy room. One of us was present aII the time, with the exception of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays were done. Oooops! you mean they were NOT in the room between 6:40 and 8pm when xrays and photos of JFK were taken? or are they talking about xrays AFTER 8pm ??? (You may wish to read a bit further... ALL the xrays were done prior to the first incision according to these men... Good luck working that one thru .... They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room... They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket. Say it ain't so! But Sibert here tells us the body was wrapped in sheets... and that before the first incision AT 8:15pm, they were able to take photos and xrays with everyone out of the room.... Scott... these photos and xrays take time to take... and the xrays, which were developed at the time, took quite a bit of time - if you had actually read the testimonies you'd already know that... So with none of the xrays taken AFTER the first incision... and Finck arrives at 8:30 to a full set of xrays... you've read all the xray technicians' evidence, yes? So, how dat possible ??? Q: First incision. How much time was there between the time that the body was unwrapped from the sheets and the first incision was made? A: Well. this is the time that you would have had the X-rays and the photographs And I don’t recall. And I think they probably may have waited a little bit to get those X-rays developed. I recall there was Kellerman and Greer - who was the driver - O’Neill and myself And there were some others. There had to be. And I don’t know who assisted in that, but we carried it through the door and right on into the autopsy room and set it on the floor there before it was opened. Q: The floor of the autopsy room, or the floor of the ward, generally? A: Well, it was sort of a anteroom there. I think HSCA Recap: But there definitely was a large cavity and I think this probably accounts for what Humes mentioned at the first about surgery to the head area. I mean, it was just that apparent that there was that much skull missing. Sibert examined the autopsy descriptive sheet found in the Warren Report and said it was done by Dr. Boswell. He said the ".. .drawing was pretty accurate as to what we described." He said the general location of the wounds "...looks accurate." Sibert also said that CE385 and CE386 looked accurate as well. So, in 1977 Sibert is shown the following and states they are accurate... or the HSCA stated that he said it was accurate... MD46 was the revised HSCA affidavit, corrected from md155... You will find Sibert's signature on MD46 and a fairly good representation of the info contained within, in MD85. Now let me ask you a question... does the drawing Sibert did for the ARRB (at the bottom) resemble Ryberg's drawings? http://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?absPageId=138645 or Boswell's sheet? Specifically the Ryberg drawings... To conclude again... There is nothing in the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that does not show a rear entering bullet blowing out the bone to the right and in front of the coronal suture along with creating a furrow 4.5cm deep running from the occipital to the right temple... as well as cleanly cutting the spinal cord and magically detatching all the connective tissue on the left side of his scalp/skull/brain... Meanwhile the witness description of the damage and the photographs conflict with these xrays... xrays we both agree were taken of JFK at Bethesda, at some point. onelast question... what was happening at the Bethesda morgue between 6:40 and 8pm... and please show us how there are no conflicts in your account... Thanks (side note: did it ever bother you Scott, that they described JFK's skeleton with as much fraudulence as they did the brain? "no Gross abnormalities" "1500cc's" ?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Scott.... These are the two men who carried an empty casket into the ante-room of the morgue and are then kicked out until AFTER 8pm... Very good, David! As we can see from the quotes below that is exactly what you asked for; post 8:00 witnesses. I can't help it if you're not happy that it shoots down your claim that nobody after 8:00 saw the same wounds seen at Dallas. "If you could please point to a post 8pm autopsy witness who see's and tells about only a hole to the right rear... it would be helpful in my understanding your point... " "I asked if you could point out anyone from AFTER 8pm who says that, who was not there when the shipping casket was opened at 6:45." "Boswell's drawing comes AFTER HUMES performs "surgery to the top of the head".... and as we can see - not a single person who sees JFK prior to 8pm says a different thing... while all those after 8pm and after the damage is done, describes a thoroughly enlarged and completely changed injury" Oops! I guess the part I underlined isn't quite true after all. Edited February 26, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it... WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you... ARRB SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 - when we were in that autopsy room. One of us was present aII the time, with the exception of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays were done. They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room... They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket. No, David. There appears to be sections of research you are not aware of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Scott.... Let's try to remember the title of the thread Scott: Did the autopsy doctors think the fatal bullet exited the back of the head? And we are discussing the AUTOPSY EVIDENCE CREATED AT BETHESDA ... not what the FBI said about what they saw... We all know that actual witnesses differ with the EVIDENCE, that's the entire point there Scott... the fraudulent AUTOPSY EVIDENCE... which does not represent what most say they saw.. Would you PLEASE post an image of AUTOPSY EVIDENCE that supports an occipital only blow-out - which is what, to a person, each of the wintesses claim was the only wound on JFK in DALLAS. Wait! Now you don't want me to point out any post 8:00 witnesses, but want me to post a image of "Autopsy Evidence" instead? Maybe we can create a thread titled "Dave Josephs Flip Flops On What He Asks For." Edited February 26, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Josephs Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 Y'know Scott... there appears to be a HUGE section of research that you are simply not aware of and have not made any effort to familarize yourself with it... WHERE Sibert and O'Neill actually were and when... appears to be something that eludes you... ARRB SIBERT: Yes. I might mention - on this Exhibit 157 - when we were in that autopsy room. One of us was present aII the time, with the exception of when photographs and radiology work and X-rays were done. They were NOT let into the morgue when they dropped off the empty casket... in the ante-room... They did NOT see the unwrapping of the body from a metal shipping casket but the unwrapping just after 8pm after the body was brought in yet again.. this time in the Parkland casket. No, David. There appears to be sections of research you are not aware of. This occurs at 8pm Scott... that's was the entire point. O'Neill and Sibert dropped a casket in the anteroom and were asked to leave... they did not see the body again until they were let in AFTER 8pm... That Sibert claims both Boswell's drawing of the head and his drawing represent the same wound is the hurdle you just can't get over... Read BEST EVIDENCE and read HORNE Volume 4... and then look around a little and READ the evidence... Quoting me, back to me is a cope out.... So far all we've seen from you is air... no substance but alot of blowing around... LEARN the subject before you post about it Scott... your ignorance about the subject matter is obvious... For my friends who have read and followed this travesty of rebuttal from these two... I'm sorry they can't present a case or address any of the questions asked with any honesty... Maybe next time on the next forum.. Cheers DJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) O'Neill and Sibert dropped a casket in the anteroom and were asked to leave... they did not see the body again until they were let in AFTER 8pm... Anybody following this thread can plainly see that I attached a copy of the report the HSCA did on it's interview with O'Neill to support my claim that he saw the body removed from the casket that he helped bring in. Mr. Josephs backs up his claim by typing the word "after" in caps. Read BEST EVIDENCE and read HORNE Volume 4... and then look around a little and READ the evidence... Again, to anybody following this discussion, James DiEugenio does a great job of addressing this topic in his review of Inside the ARRB on CTKA.net. http://ctka.net/reviews/horne_jd.html Quoting me, back to me is a cope out.... So far all we've seen from you is air... no substance but alot of blowing around... LEARN the subject before you post about it Scott... your ignorance about the subject matter is obvious... I'm sure it's quite clear to people following this thread that my quotes of Mr. Joseph, were to show that I had answered the question he asked. It documents how he'll ask for one thing, then ask for something else when he doesn't like the answer he gets. For those of you who are new to the assassination, I have dealt with this shouting and hand waving in the past. Ralph Cinque would use the same tactic in discussions on another forum. Edited February 26, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 26, 2014 Share Posted February 26, 2014 (edited) Read BEST EVIDENCE and read HORNE Volume 4... and then look around a little and READ the evidence... LEARN the subject before you post about it Scott... your ignorance about the subject matter is obvious... You'd do well to follow your own advice, David. When I quoted O'Connor's statement from Lifton's book about a shipping casket coming in at 8:00 you disputed it and asked for a source. Edited February 26, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Scott, how come O'Connor saw a pink shipping casket arrive and the President in a body bag, at 8p.m., when Humes said the body was in the Parkland casket and wrapped in sheets? "We opened the casket, Dr. Boswell and I, and the President's body was unclothed in the casket, was wrapped in a sheet labeled by the Parkland Hospital" Could he have got his times mixed up? Edited February 27, 2014 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Hello, Ray. I think a lot of people were confused about a lot that night. There is an account from Admiral Osborne that claims the body was clothed and a bullet fell from the clothing. There's no doubt that there's a lot of contradictory, confusing evidence to sort through. Garry Aguilar and Kathy Cunningham do a great job of documenting the problems with the medical evidence here. Sorry it's such a long read. http://www.history-matters.com/essays/jfkmed/How5Investigations/How5InvestigationsGotItWrong.htm Edited February 27, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) Scott,have you ever read this is a report regarding Clarence Israel, whose brother was a black orderly at the autopsy. Edited February 27, 2014 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 O'Connor was either right with the time he saw the body removed, or right about what the body was wrapped in. As the wrappings do not agree with Humes but do agree with Edward Reed, who said when he saw the body it the body was wrapped in plastic, rather than Parkland sheets, (see http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/jfk/arrb/medical_testimony/pdf/Reed_10-21-97.pdf page 28) then it would appear that he was right about the wrapping and not the time. He also says that the personnel who brought the casket in lifted the body out of the casket, which again is not what Humes said. Either he was mistaken or there was a lot of shenanigans going on before the official autopsy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott Tame Posted February 27, 2014 Share Posted February 27, 2014 (edited) I don't put much stock in the Israel story, Ray. No one else reports him as being there. And his claim that everyone is told to leave but he is allowed to stay is a bit much. Edited February 27, 2014 by Scott Tame Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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