Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Thomas Graves]

Paul - do you no longer espouse the view that Walker and Banister, having figured out that it was Oswald who shot at Walker, blackmailed him into going to New Orleans (and later Mexico City) and working with their anti-Castro operations?

Paul B.,

Please don't encourage him!

Jeez...

Thanks,

--Tommy

Edited April 14, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Those who believe Marina's husband worked for some country's intelligence service do not look at Oswald as would a trained C.I. officer. Yes, as I've written, Oswald would have been interesting at first glance to [a] a collection officer (case officer), and a counter-intelligence officer. He would have appeared to have lots of potential.

A C.I. officer, who would have been trained in deception detection, likely would have found Oswald the real deal. He did not attempt to deceive. He was who he told others he was.

The others might have tried to make use of him. But he was a poor puppet. Unless one was prepared to tell lies about him post-assassination. Which neither the CIA nor the FBI seemed willing to do about Mexico City.

[David Josephs]

Those who believe Marina's husband worked for some country's intelligence service do not look at Oswald as would a trained C.I. officer. Yes, as I've written, Oswald would have been interesting at first glance to [a] a collection officer (case officer), and a counter-intelligence officer. He would have appeared to have lots of potential.

A C.I. officer, who would have been trained in deception detection, likely would have found Oswald the real deal. He did not attempt to deceive. He was who he told others he was.

The others might have tried to make use of him. But he was a poor puppet. Unless one was prepared to tell lies about him post-assassination. Which neither the CIA nor the FBI seemed willing to do about Mexico City.

Say what Jon? Everything about Mexico City was a lie... Everything.

An asset of the CIA, Alvarado, even tells the story of Oswald taking money from Castro related agents to kill JFK.

Helms finally has to step in to downplay that mess... Phillips was part of the interrogation and "lie-detector" tests... When Oswald becomes the Lone Nut Alvarado and every other link to Castro disappears.

He was the perfect puppet Jon... I truly do not see how you would be privy to the workings of Jesus Angleton and Richard Helms in the late 50's early 60's.

If you were or can explain how you would know what the planning processes of Angleton were - by all means... (You may wish to read Wilderness of Mirrors http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Mirrors-Deception-Destroyed-Important/dp/1585748242 if you haven't already)

Oswald was not who he told others he was... not by a long shot... those that studied him believe English was his 2nd language... that he spoke Russian with a distinct accent from eastern Russia

Edited April 14, 2015 by David Josephs

[Thomas Graves]

Those who believe Marina's husband worked for some country's intelligence service do not look at Oswald as would a trained C.I. officer. Yes, as I've written, Oswald would have been interesting at first glance to [a] a collection officer (case officer), and a counter-intelligence officer. He would have appeared to have lots of potential.

A C.I. officer, who would have been trained in deception detection, likely would have found Oswald the real deal. He did not attempt to deceive. He was who he told others he was.

The others might have tried to make use of him. But he was a poor puppet. Unless one was prepared to tell lies about him post-assassination. Which neither the CIA nor the FBI seemed willing to do about Mexico City.

Say what Jon? Everything about Mexico City was a lie... Everything.

An asset of the CIA, Alvarado, even tells the story of Oswald taking money from Castro related agents to kill JFK.

Helms finally has to step in to downplay that mess... Phillips was part of the interrogation and "lie-detector" tests... When Oswald becomes the Lone Nut Alvarado and every other link to Castro disappears.

He was the perfect puppet Jon... I truly do not see how you would be privy to the workings of Jesus Angleton and Richard Helms in the late 50's early 60's.

If you were or can explain how you would know what the planning processes of Angleton were - by all means... (You may wish to read Wilderness of Mirrors http://www.amazon.com/Wilderness-Mirrors-Deception-Destroyed-Important/dp/1585748242 if you haven't already)

Oswald was not who he told others he was... not by a long shot... those that studied him believe English was his 2nd language... that he spoke Russian with a distinct accent from eastern Russia

Dear Joseph,

Eastern Russia? Where did you come up with that?

Or was it from one of the Baltic countries (Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania), where Marina allegedly thought he was from?

It's so confusing, isn't it, trying to remember the difference between Baltic countries and Balkan countries.

Of course "Eastern Russia" is neither Baltic nor Balkan.

Unfortunately for your Lee and Harvey (and Henry, too) Theory, Hungary, too, is neither Baltic nor Balkan.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baltic_states

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balkans

Respectfully,

--Tommy

Edited April 15, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[David Josephs]

Nice Tommy - .. .

I made a mistake... thanks for paying attention.

I knew about Hungary and what Marina had said about Baltic yet misspoke by writing Eastern Russia..

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

Paul T. - do you no longer espouse the view that Walker and Banister, having figured out that it was Oswald who shot at Walker, blackmailed him into going to New Orleans (and later Mexico City) and working with their anti-Castro operations?

Actually, Paul B., I still maintain that view very strongly. Why do you ask?

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Those who believe Marina's husband worked for some country's intelligence service do not look at Oswald as would a trained C.I. officer. Yes, as I've written, Oswald would have been interesting at first glance to {a} a collection officer (case officer), and {b} a counter-intelligence officer. He would have appeared to have lots of potential...

...The others might have tried to make use of him. But he was a poor puppet. Unless one was prepared to tell lies about him post-assassination. Which neither the CIA nor the FBI seemed willing to do about Mexico City.

Well, Jon, you didn't respond to my recent answer to your recent question.

I opined that OSWALD was clearly hired by the ONI -- but I emphasized that OSWALD was only 19 years old at the time. So he wasn't hired as a full-fledged Agent, but as a Trainee.

Do you also deny that OSWALD was entirely plausible as a potential Trainee for the ONI? (Remembering, too, that we have CIA documents claiming that at some point in 1962, even the CIA considered the "laying on of interviews" for OSWALD).

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...A C.I. officer, who would have been trained in deception detection, likely would have found Oswald the real deal. He did not attempt to deceive. He was who he told others he was...

Well, Jon, this is simply mistaken. One only needs to look at the Lopez Report to see the large, elaborate "resume" of phony credentials that OSWALD presented to the Cuban Consulate in Mexico City.

OSWALD was a habitual xxxx. It was perhaps this skill, first and foremost, that convinced OSWALD that a career in an Intelligence Agency was his destiny.

Let's return to your opening question: Was OSWALD an Intelligence Agent? My answer is, "NO, with an explanation."

OSWALD had been a Trainee with the ONI while in the USSR. After he quit his post (being headstrong) he never again worked for an Intelligence Agency.

However, OSWALD wanted a job with an Intelligence Agency, more than anything else in the world. That's how he got himself into such deep, deep trouble with the JFK Kill-Team.

Did OSWALD kill JFK? No.

Was OSWALD an honest man? No.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 15, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

I defer to your knowledge of Oswald and Mexico City but not your knowledge of how intelligence operations work.

FWIW, I've not believed Marina's husband traveled to Mexico City. So I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I do not believe Marina's husband was a puppet. I may be wrong, but I view his actions as voluntary.

What, in your opinion, did Marina's husband do that he did not want to do?

Thanks. Respect as always.

[David Josephs]

David Josephs,

I defer to your knowledge of Oswald and Mexico City but not your knowledge of how intelligence operations work.

FWIW, I've not believed Marina's husband traveled to Mexico City. So I agree with you wholeheartedly.

I do not believe Marina's husband was a puppet. I may be wrong, but I view his actions as voluntary.

What, in your opinion, did Marina's husband do that he did not want to do?

Thanks. Respect as always.

I was under the impression the question was whether Oswald was who he made himself appear to be... which I do not believe he ever fully did.

His motivation for doing this or that is completely unknown.

Why was he handing out pro-Castro flyers while working for anti-castro FBI/CIA related "agents" (I use this term loosely)

Is it possible he was enticed to use HIDELL to order rifles for Dodd or some other reason which could be used against him later?

A higher paying job was available yet he winds up working at the TSBD... by October the busy season for school books has died down - being able to resurface all the floors does not occur when everyone needs to be busy shipping books. Wesley's sister is the one who mentions to Ruth that her brother's work was looking for people... this was not true yet Ruth supposedly calls

So the two people who place a paper bag in the man's hands are the ones who lead him to the job in the first place...

Mrs. PAINE - And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked. Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--

Again, I don't know that the question is what did he do that he didn't want to, but what actions did he take which were arranged for him to take and why. We've had this discussion before Jon. The activities which after the fact look like he was being set up as a patsy are moot if JFK is killed in Chicago or Tampa yet are conveniently available to be twisted into incriminating him in a cuban/communist plot to kill JFK. When that plot is simply no longer an option (or was all along a way to keep anyone important from looking too closely) these activites are no longer front and center...

He was ALONE. He was placed in Mexico ALONE even though the CIA's evidence put him squarely in the midst of a Castro backed plot to kill JFK.

The Secret Service / FBI claimed there was no connection between Oswald and Ruby, Oswald and Bannister, Oswald and Ferrie, Oswald and anyone in intelligence related activity. Which we know was all false.

In the final assessment I believe that he was used with the potential of his being the patsy from the time the assassination was planned... when and who that involves is the big question and one I also have tried to address.

I can guarantee that VALLEE would be the famous name and the Lone Nut with all the related evidence and testimony and incrimination needed to make the case stick in the minds of those who cared to look.

The transition from Phase 1 Castro-Commie to Phase 2 Lone Nut is one of the most significant aspects of the conspiracy and happens VERY quickly between LBJ, his cronies and advisors and Hoover.

The CIA and Military wanted to bomb Cuba off the face of the earth...

That was either part of the leverage for the plan or was thwarted by decisions made very soon after the killing... BUNDY calls AF-1 to say it was Oswald and no conspiracy... this is recounted by a number of people although no physical evidence of this exists.

BUNDY.... within 2 hours of the killing... if this is true it would seem to me that the secondary reasons for everything Oswald is LED to do since his return from Russia is to insure that no one argues with this LONE NUT set-up.

Sincerely...

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

I was under the impression the question was whether Oswald was who he made himself appear to be... which I do not believe he ever fully did. His motivation for doing this or that is completely unknown.

Why was he handing out pro-Castro flyers while working for anti-castro FBI/CIA related "agents" (I use this term loosely). Is it possible he was enticed to use HIDELL to order rifles for Dodd or some other reason which could be used against him later?

A higher paying job was available yet he winds up working at the TSBD... by October the busy season for school books has died down - being able to resurface all the floors does not occur when everyone needs to be busy shipping books. Wesley's sister is the one who mentions to Ruth that her brother's work was looking for people... this was not true yet Ruth supposedly calls. So the two people who place a paper bag in the man's hands are the ones who lead him to the job in the first place...

Mrs. PAINE - And the subject of his looking for work and that he hadn't found work for a week, came up while we were having coffee, the four young mothers at Mrs. Roberts' house, and Mrs. Randle mentioned that her younger brother, Wesley Frazier thought they needed another person at the Texas School Book Depository where Wesley worked. Marina then asked me, after we had gone home, asked me if I would call--

Again, I don't know that the question is what did he do that he didn't want to, but what actions did he take which were arranged for him to take and why. We've had this discussion before Jon. The activities which after the fact look like he was being set up as a patsy are moot if JFK is killed in Chicago or Tampa yet are conveniently available to be twisted into incriminating him in a cuban/communist plot to kill JFK. When that plot is simply no longer an option (or was all along a way to keep anyone important from looking too closely) these activites are no longer front and center...

He was ALONE. He was placed in Mexico ALONE even though the CIA's evidence put him squarely in the midst of a Castro backed plot to kill JFK. The Secret Service / FBI claimed there was no connection between Oswald and Ruby, Oswald and Bannister, Oswald and Ferrie, Oswald and anyone in intelligence related activity. Which we know was all false.

In the final assessment I believe that he was used with the potential of his being the patsy from the time the assassination was planned... when and who that involves is the big question and one I also have tried to address.

I can guarantee that VALLEE would be the famous name and the Lone Nut with all the related evidence and testimony and incrimination needed to make the case stick in the minds of those who cared to look. The transition from Phase 1 Castro-Commie to Phase 2 Lone Nut is one of the most significant aspects of the conspiracy and happens VERY quickly between LBJ, his cronies and advisors and Hoover.

The CIA and Military wanted to bomb Cuba off the face of the earth...That was either part of the leverage for the plan or was thwarted by decisions made very soon after the killing... BUNDY calls AF-1 to say it was Oswald and no conspiracy... this is recounted by a number of people although no physical evidence of this exists.

BUNDY.... within 2 hours of the killing... if this is true it would seem to me that the secondary reasons for everything Oswald is LED to do since his return from Russia is to insure that no one argues with this LONE NUT set-up.

Sincerely...

DJ

Well, David, we cannot have any theory of OSWALD without proposing a theory of his MOTIVATION.

Mark Valenti published a chronology of OSWALD's activities using his own words (which are largely paraphrases, but a laudible attempt at a chronology nonetheless) and this highlights how little we know about OSWALD.

For example, around the time OSWALD chooses to move to New Orleans, he begins to write enthusiastically to the FPCC -- something new in his life.

This raises your question, David, which was answered by Jim Garrision in 1968, namely: why did OSWALD hand out FPCC fliers while associating with right-wing extremists (e.g. Guy Banister, Clay Shaw, David Ferrie, Fred Crisman, Jack S. Martin and Thomas Beckham) in New Orleans?

While it is suspicious that OSWALD obtained a job at the TSBD five weeks before the JFK parade, it is also suspicious that the JFK parade route was made only only five days before the parade. (The announcement was made only four days before, and even then the Dallas Morning News of 11/22/1963 published a route map that completely omitted the turns from Main to Houston to Elm.)

If (and only if) plans were made about Dealey Plaza as early as October, when OSWALD got his job there, then Dallas County conspirators were busy at work that early. This suggests the work of Ex-General Walker and his coterie of John Birch Society busy-bodies.

I find nothing suspicious about Wesley Buell and his sister (though I may be mistaken), or even about their paper-bag claims -- because I believe Gerry Patrick Hemming when he claims that he offered OSWALD double the price of that Manlicher-Carcano rifle if OSWALD would bring it to the TSBD on 11/22/1963 -- and OSWALD did that.

I don't believe that OSWALD acted alone for anything in New Orleans -- but I think that he was still in contact with Cuban Exiles even in Dallas Texas (e.g. the Silvia Odio story). OSWALD's relationship with Gerry Patrick Hemming -- whatever the level -- makes him anything but a LONER.

Did OSWALD do anything he didn't want to do? NEVER. Even when he agreed to go to the USSR as a "dangle" (as Marchetti claims) when he had "had enough" he just quit and came back to the USA; wife and all. He just broke his contract, period. So, OSWALD was a maverick.

Despite this breach of contract, the CIA says that they considered the "laying on of interviews" with OSWALD -- which is utterly impossible if he was ever a true Defector.

OSWALD was headstrong and did what he wanted -- but what he WANTED was to be an Intelligence Agent, so he would occassionally play ball with others.

Yet as a habitual xxxx, he continually lied to Marina about all of his actions and inactions. Marina could only report about OSWALD what she was told by him -- so we must keep that context in mind.

Again -- there is a benign interpretation to the whole NOLA episode that Jim Garrison missed -- namely, that the entire purpose of the Guy Banister operation was to kill Fidel Castro -- not JFK.

As David Atlee Phillips averred, it was only at the last moment that his potential Castro killer, Lee Harvey OSWALD, was snatched away from his plot to kill Fidel, and exploited in a plot to kill JFK.

Further, Phillips avers that the same scenario -- a parade, a high-building, a high-powered rifle -- were all part of his Kill-Fidel plan.

OSWALD in New Orleans was NEVER ALONE. In Mexico City he was NEVER ALONE. His phony resume is hard evidence of that fact. He was part of a JFK-backed plot to kill Fidel Castro. It didn't work because his resume was simply stupid.

Even the stupidity of OSWALD's Mexico City resume is hard evidence, IMHO, that he didn't act alone, but was being set-up.

So, even though OSWALD was NEVER doing anything against his will in his own opinion, he was indeed being outsmarted by Guy Banister and Edwin Walker, who were miles ahead of OSWALD. (That is, even if Guy Banister's operation was intended to kill Fidel Castro, which Banister would have loved, I think that Guy Banister always had a secret deal going with Edwin Walker back in Dallas.)

I see no proof of any connection between OSWALD and Jack Ruby. Jack Ruby was a DPD flunkie who would do anything for the DPD -- including kill a cop-killer for them. The ONLY role that Jack Ruby played in the whole drama was to play along with the DPD to kill OSWALD.

In my theory, rightist radicals in the DPD killed both JFK and OSWALD. Jack Ruby was ignorant of the JFK plot, but was the central figure of the OSWALD plot (per Seth Kantor). Perhaps Ruby figured out the truth while at Dallas prison, and that is the most logical reason why he told Earl Warren that he could only tell the full truth outside Dallas. (It is also a logical explanation for the deaths of so many witnesses near Dallas.)

It seems to me that OSWALD was tagged for murder on Easter Sunday 1963, after Edwin Walker learned from some anonymous, high-level source that OSWALD had been his shooter four days beforehand. The exact means were unknown at the start -- but a successful military mind like Ex-General Walker would make it go right.

Finally, David, I agree with you 200% when you say that, "the transition from Phase 1 Castro-Commie to Phase 2 Lone Nut is one of the most significant aspects of the conspiracy and happens VERY quickly between LBJ, his cronies and advisors and Hoover."

In fact, it happened on 11/22/1963, only two hours after the murder of JFK, as Edwin Walker had caught the whole world by surprise. Walker wanted to boast about this victory so bad he could taste it. But J. Edgar Hoover was about to foil Walker's plan to invade Cuba by using his "Communist" patsy. Hoover created the "Lone Nut" myth.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit>

Edited April 16, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

Many thanks for your response.

You write:

"Again, I don't know that the question is what did he do that he didn't want to, but what actions did he take which were arranged for him to take and why."

You assume Oswald (Marina's husband) took actions that some third party arranged for him to take. Perhaps handing out leaflets in New Orleans. Or going to the Soviet Union. Maybe, I don't know, going to Mexico City.

As a former C.I. officer, I ask, who directed him to take such actions? And why did he take such actions?

[Paul Trejo]

David Josephs,

Many thanks for your response.

...You assume Oswald (Marina's husband) took actions that some third party arranged for him to take. Perhaps handing out leaflets in New Orleans. Or going to the Soviet Union. Maybe, I don't know, going to Mexico City.

As a former C.I. officer, I ask, who directed him to take such actions? And why did he take such actions?

Well, Jon, I also assume that OSWALD (Marina's husband) took actions that some third party arranged for him.

I believe that contacting all these Communist organizations by mail was arranged for him. My logic is that a normal person would only have written to these organizations after personnally visiting field chapters. OSWALD didn't do that.

A normal person would have first made local contacts, attended local meetings, made local friends with similar political views -- and then would have written to the New York headquarters of these organizations. OSWALD didn't do that.

Instead, OSWALD communicated to left-wingers by postal service, and his personal contacts were with right-wingers, including Marines, Cuban Exiles, mercenaries, CIA wannabe "assets" and so on. In other words, his own kind.

His actual known and verifiable associates in New Orleans were Carlos Bringuier and Ed Butler. Both of these men were close to Guy Banister. Carlos Bringuier was also close with Ex-General Edwin Walker, who supported the DRE.

The FPCC is a case in point -- but there were other left-wing Organizations with which OSWALD would communicate only by using the postal service -- and very deliberately leaving a paper trail. He was never so blind as to fail to see that the FBI and other Intellegence Agencies would open his mail. This behavior was, IMHO, done in response to instructions from a third-party. This third-party was busy creating a Fake OSWALD inside the FPCC.

Guy Banister would be the logical choice of third-party, since Guy Banister was obsessed with the FPCC, kept a file on the FPCC, and tried to infiltrate the FPCC in other ways.

Also, we don't see OSWALD bothering with the FPCC until he first begins speaking about New Orleans on 17 April 1963 (seven days after the Ex-General Walker shooting).

Once OSWALD decides to move to New Orleans, to find a job at a Coffee company which was walking distance to Guy Banister's office, he also begins making overtures to Vic Lee of the FPCC in New York.

In my view, OSWALD's main accomplishment in New Orleans from April to September 1963 was to create an elaborate "resume" of himself as a Fake FPCC officer of a Fake FPCC chapter. Since OSWALD took this "resume" with him to Mexico City, then I again point to Guy Banister as the third party who directed his actions.

The connection is clear: Banister --> FPCC "resume" --> Mexico City. The Lopez Report is clear evidence to support OSWALD in Mexico City.

Now -- if I'm right and Guy Banister was the third-party who directed OSWALD's actions in New Orleans (as Jim Garrison also believed), then the reason why OSWALD took those actions was in complete harmony with Guy Banister's reasons why.

That is, the motivation of OSWALD was the same as the motivation of Guy Banister, for whom OSWALD put on this charade of Fakery.

What were the motives of Guy Banister? First and foremost, Guy Banister wanted Fidel Castro dead, dead, dead. Guy Banister would pay any price, make any sacrifice, support any ally and oppose any foe to make this dream come true.

(That is, if Guy Banister could topple Fidel Castro's regime only by killing JFK and blaming it on an FPCC Communist, then Guy Bansiter would not hesitate for one moment to put that plan into action. It was all about Cuba's liberation, in Banister's political opinion.)

Back to your question, Jon -- why would OSWALD choose to follow a third-party's instructions? Well, IMHO the personal motivation of OSWALD was gainful employment inside an Intelligence Agency. Evidently, OSWALD believed that Guy Banister could give him a good reference in his application for employment. All OSWALD had to do was to please Banister. It seems to me that OSWALD spent the summer of 1963 trying very hard to please Guy Banister.

OSWALD lied about everything. He lied about liking Fidel, and he lied about supporting the FPCC. OSWALD neither liked nor hated Fidel Castro -- OSWALD was an opportunist, increasingly desperate to earn more money to support his wife and children. This was OSWALD's motivation.

We know this from OSWALD's own words -- depending on who he was talking to, he either was a Communist, or was "only" a Marxist, or was only curious when he went to the USSR. What a chronic xxxx.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

<edit>

Edited April 18, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Question:

Why would a liberal / radical U.S. citizen living in New Orleans or Dallas visit a "local chapter" in another city instead of corresponding by mail? So he or she could spend extra money on travel and accommodations and worry that the FBI might follow them / take photographs of them entering and leaving the "subversive" offices (which the FBI may not have done, but which could "reasonably" be expected by the typical paranoid / paranoiac U.S. "Marxist / Communist") ?

--Tommy

Edited April 17, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Brancato]

Mr. Graves - you are encouraging him...

Jon, and the rest of us:

The parable of the blind men and the elephant applies to understanding Oswald,especially if, like Jon, you ask, from your perspective as a former intelligence 'agent', whether Oswald was one also. It's especially hard to accept how little we may know when the subject at hand is one we think we do know.

Paul - you have to answer Harry Dean.