Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[Paul Trejo]

...I'm afraid I've pointed out to Paul that there are a number of incidents which prove that Hoover was very open to pursuing a conspiracy - as long as it could tie Oswald to Cuba or to commies in general. On Saturday morning he was telling Johnson about an impersonation in Mexico City, obviously suggesting that if Oswald was being impersonated there a broader conspiracy could be in play.

Viewing Hoover as the sole instigator of the Lone Nut concept is just not accurate....he was being pressured in that direction by Johnson if anything. It is true that he was quickly focused on Oswald as the shooter but not necessarily on Oswald as an isolated, lone nut. That was coming from elsewhere. And certainly Hoover was not driving the commentary coming from the Situation Room to Air Force One.

Larry, I'm taking Dr. Wrone's statement as my stable datum. The scenario that you told me about in the past is subordinated to Wrone's take on Hoover, IMHO.

In other words, the LONE NUT theory was very new during the first week after the JFK murder, so even Hoover himself was uncomfortable with it, when he was confronted by those outside his immediate control.

There was a flood of data incoming about the JFK murder, even from the CIA about the Mexico City episode (complete with a photo of a Fake OSWALD, courtesy of the Mole-Hunt which Bill Simpich described so well in his book, "State Secret" of 2014).

I'll stick with Dr. Wrone until somebody can provide hard facts about the "true" source of the LONE NUT theory. Wrone says it was Hoover, before 3PM on 11/22/1963, "from his office overlooking the banks of the Potomac." Others provide mainly guesswork.

Hoover's apparent uncertainty about the feasibility of his own LONE NUT theory does not upset Wrone's grasp of the situation.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Brian Schmidt]

Here's a link to that 12/12/63 Hoover memo: http://jfklancer.com/Hoover.html

[Paul Trejo]

The question here is, Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

I ask everyone here, do you see Oswald as having been recruited, trained, and sent on target...to tell all here what Oswald was recruited to do,

BTW, the notion Oswald was a "dangle" is baloney. Intelligence services in those days just did not, did not, work that way.

Intelligence services wanted information.

Well, Jon, I think my position should be clear by now. OSWALD was recruited to be the Patsy for the JFK Murder, and was trained only to be a Fake Director of a Fake FPCC in NOLA, and to go to Mexico City to try out his Fake Credentials.

That's it. That's all. After that, he was directed to go to Dallas and WAIT, evidently. OSWALD obediently did as he was told. He figured out too late that he was only a Patsy. If he tried to tell the DPD the names of his accomplices, they tore up all the notes, obviously. But I doubt that OSWALD turned on his framers -- he hoped they would eventually bail him out, evidently.

As for the notion that a CIA "dangle" is "baloney" -- that's an important claim here. Even Larry Hancock has used that term in this context.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

BUMP

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

Thanks Brian, much appreciated. And for Paul, that is a pretty amazing position to take since as I recall you were unable to provide an actual citation or source for Wrone's view on the matter. If you can give us a citation that's fine but if you are saying that Dr. Wrone simply had an author epiphany and that outweighs an actual series of primary sources then...well hey, I can have an author counter-epiphany as well.

Although I have to admit the level of specificity in "from his office overlooking the banks of the Potomic" is pretty darn convincing....

[Cliff Varnell]

Here's a link to that 12/12/63 Hoover memo: http://jfklancer.com/Hoover.html

Brian, thank you!

Paul, give it up...Hoover was a major cog in the Red Assassin frame-machine.

Edited April 6, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Paul Trejo]

Thanks Brian, much appreciated. And for Paul, that is a pretty amazing position to take since as I recall you were unable to provide an actual citation or source for Wrone's view on the matter. If you can give us a citation that's fine but if you are saying that Dr. Wrone simply had an author epiphany and that outweighs an actual series of primary sources then...well hey, I can have an author counter-epiphany as well.

Although I have to admit the level of specificity in "from his office overlooking the banks of the Potomic" is pretty darn convincing....

Well, Larry, it's unusual for you to recall incorrectly.

I have an actual citation for Wrone's view on the matter that I've shared with the FORUM before. It's the superb video DVD entitled: The Murder of JFK: A Revisionist History, produced by Matthew White, published 2006.

Dr. Wrone appears personally in this video. Wrone is also one of the few who names the JBS in the context of the JFK murder.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...Was Ruth Paine an intelligence agent? Was George De Mohrenschildt? What is Oswald doing playing political footsie with them? Ruth had a filing cabinet devoted to pro-Castro groups in her home. Her husband attended Walker rallies with Oswald. All of this is innocent of intelligence agency involvement?

Here's my response, David:

(1) Ruth Paine was absolutely NOT an Intelligence Agent. Just because she had relatives who were Intelligence Agents, that means absolutely nothing about her own status with the CIA.

(2) George De Mohrenschildt (DM) was absolutely NOT an Intelligence Agent. He was, however, a CIA asset of a fairly low level during the Cold War. He was compromised, however, because (2.1) he was a Russian; (2.2) he had worked with Communists; (2.3) he had worked with Nazis; and (2.4) he always needed money after the Communists took away his family Estate.

(3.0) OSWALD got involved with Ruth and Michael Paine specifically through George DM. To trace the relationship of George DM with OSWALD, our richest source of data is the Warren Commission testimony of George DM, Jeanne DM and Marina Oswald.

(3.1) OSWALD liked George DM very much -- because George came from real money, and didn't have to respect anybody; and OSWALD admired and respected that. George babysat Lee for the CIA in exchange for a quarter-million dollar oil exploration contract in Haiti.

(3.2) George DM was an professor of oil engineering (among other things). That's how he knew Michael Paine, Volkmar Schmidt and all the other Yuppie Liberal Engineers in Dallas. George DM was older than they were, but growing up rich, he took great care of himself, was in top physical condition, and could beat them all at tennis. He was a daddy-figure to many of them -- being a professor.

(3.3) OSWALD moved to the head of the class with his relationship with George DM. OSWALD didn't have to feel inferior financially to all these Yuppie Engineers (although he certainly was inferior) as long as he had George's approval.

(3.4) To grasp the OSWALD/George DM relationship in full, refer to the WC testimony, but also to George's 100 page book on OSWALD, (I'm a Patsy! 1978). That document proves how much George DM hated Ex-General Walker.

(4.0) The filing cabinet in Ruth Paine's garage that you cite wasn't hers. It was Oswald's and probably came from Guy Banister, originally.

(5.0) Michael Paine swore that he didn't attend Walker's rally with OSWALD on 23 October 1963, but went to a JBS meeting instead. I sort of doubt this, because I believe that most or all of the JBS folks in Dallas were at Walker's rally that night -- but it's a minor point. The key point is that both OSWALD and Michael Paine would complain about Walker -- it was something they had in common.

(6.0) The harsh attitudes that George DM spread about Ex-General Walker among the Yuppie Engineers of Dallas (and OSWALD) was the ultimate root of OSWALD's wild-man attack on Ex-General Walker.

(7.0) There isn't any CIA or ONI or FBI relationship to any of this. It's all about civilians on the Left and the Right.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Here's a link to that 12/12/63 Hoover memo: http://jfklancer.com/Hoover.html

Nice link, Brian. IMHO, this only shows Hoover manipulating people to put them in a position where they would later push his LONE NUT theory with all their might.

But that wasn't presented to them at the start. At the start Hoover promoted the illusion that the Warren Commission would be a truly fact-finding-and-reporting entity.

Hoover was a superb xxxx.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Larry Hancock]

On the contrary Paul, I'm always at the risk of remembering something incorrectly and very aware of it. But my point is that citing another book or a video is not what I'm seeking. What is the primary source that verifies that Hoover had specifically tagged Oswald as a lone nut shooter unassociated with anyone else at that early place and time....primary means a document, telephone call, oral history etc.

Of course if that were true, then he certainly began going off target and introducing remarks and references to a possible conspiracy later that day and over the weekend.

[Paul Trejo]

...My point is that citing another book or a video is not what I'm seeking. What is the primary source that verifies that Hoover had specifically tagged Oswald as a lone nut shooter unassociated with anyone else at that early place and time....primary means a document, telephone call, oral history etc.

.

Of course if that were true, then he certainly began going off target and introducing remarks and references to a possible conspiracy later that day and over the weekend.

.

Well, Larry, I don't have better information than this University historian, David R. Wrone -- and evidently neither does anybody else.

Yet if Wrone is correct, then I suggest that you and others are misinterpreting Hoover's statements in the week or two after the JFK murder, as Hoover sought to determine how well his LONE NUT theory of OSWALD would float.

Hoover was not going off-target -- he was wisely testing the field. He was introducing opposing ideas he believed might already be out there, to test their strength.

Hoover's powerful dedication to his own idea of the LONE NUT, which was favored by LBJ, became increasingly clear as December 1963 moved forward -- not in his mind -- but in his behavior.

Hoover was tricky -- and not at all naïve.

Hoover knew what he was doing by priming his main allies, namely, the attorneys of the Warren Commission. He tied them around his little finger, precisely in those documents that Brian posted, and which you consider were "going off target."

Nothing of the kind. It was all part of his BIG LIE. This was Hoover's swan song.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 6, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

The question here is, Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

I ask everyone here, do you see Oswald as having been recruited, trained, and sent on target...to tell all here what Oswald was recruited to do,

BTW, the notion Oswald was a "dangle" is baloney. Intelligence services in those days just did not, did not, work that way.

Intelligence services wanted information.

Jon, with respect: did Oswald really go to Russia and easily return, sans consequence, without connivance from above?

Would someone who had defected and returned with a Russian wife not be useful in stateside intelligence as an infiltrator of both left groups and right groups? This is what I have meant in using the word "dangle."

If this is a unique situation in intelligence work, then perhaps it existed singularly to motivate Oswald and steer him toward set-up as a patsy for any action that could be blamed on a right group or a left group (or left government). Or blamed on a lone-nut, wannabe political player.

Was Ruth Paine an intelligence agent? Was George De Mohrenschildt? What is Oswald doing playing political footsie with them? Ruth had a filing cabinet devoted to pro-Castro groups in her home. Her husband attended Walker rallies with Oswald. All of this is innocent of intelligence agency involvement?

Also, why wasn't Oswald arrested or "detained" on the spot inside the U.S. Embassy in Moscow when he, an aviation electronics operator recently placed in the marine reserves, threatened to commit espionage / sabotage against the U.S. for the Russians, and to tell them about something of "special interest"?

--Tommy

Edited April 7, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Jon G. Tidd]

Paul Trejo,

Thanks for calling my attention to my baloney comment. I used the word "baloney" in haste and only for emphasis of my belief. Others may honestly believe otherwise.

The concept of "dangle" as I understand it here (I never encountered the term as an army C.I. officer) is that someone is held out as bait by an intelligence service, to attract parties possibly of interest. Let's say Oswald was a dangle. Whom did he attract that would not be known to the intelligence service that was dangling him? Certainly no one in New Orleans or Dallas. Guys like DeM., Ferrie, and Bannister would be clearly displayed on any intel service's radar screen. What about Russia? Sure, Oswald attracted the attention of the KGB, but so what.

The one place where the Oswald identity may have been used as a dangle was in Mexico City. It's easy for me to believe the CIA (or some other intel service) dangled in a clumsy way an impersonation of Oswald in front of the Cubans and Russians.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul Trejo,

Thanks for calling my attention to my baloney comment. I used the word "baloney" in haste and only for emphasis of my belief. Others may honestly believe otherwise.

The concept of "dangle" as I understand it here (I never encountered the term as an army C.I. officer) is that someone is held out as bait by an intelligence service, to attract parties possibly of interest. Let's say Oswald was a dangle. Whom did he attract that would not be known to the intelligence service that was dangling him? Certainly no one in New Orleans or Dallas. Guys like DeM., Ferrie, and Bannister would be clearly displayed on any intel service's radar screen. What about Russia? Sure, Oswald attracted the attention of the KGB, but so what.

The one place where the Oswald identity may have been used as a dangle was in Mexico City. It's easy for me to believe the CIA (or some other intel service) dangled in a clumsy way an impersonation of Oswald in front of the Cubans and Russians.

I think there's general agreement on this, Jon, i.e. when OSWALD was in the USSR he was used as a "dangle" by the ONI or CIA or whatever Intelligence Agency sent him there.

That was pointed out by Ex-CIA Agent Victor Marchetti in the 1990's. It seems to me that the ONI/CIA wanted OSWALD to stay in the USSR much longer than he did -- but his wife just had a baby and he wanted to show off his fatherhood to his family back in the USA. So he quit the USSR program.

IMHO, this was the reason why the Marines lowered OSWALD's discharge status -- OSWALD had broken his contract as a "dangle".

As I recall, Marchetti also explained the value to the CIA of having multiple "dangles" in the USSR, strategically positioned. They wanted to keep their "dangles" inside the USSR as long as possible -- ideally until the end of the Cold War.

By breaking his "dangle" contract, this suggests to me that OSWALD lost the favor of the Intelligence Agencies, and he was too young and naïve to know what he was doing. He always wanted to get back into their good graces. This explains how Guy Banister and Company could so easily exploit OSWALD in NOLA, by pretending to be official agents for the CIA.

But after OSWALD left the USSR, the Intelligence Agencies would only regard OSWALD with suspicion, and would think twice before laying on any more interviews; it seems to me.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 7, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul Trejo,

Thanks for calling my attention to my baloney comment. I used the word "baloney" in haste and only for emphasis of my belief. Others may honestly believe otherwise.

The concept of "dangle" as I understand it here (I never encountered the term as an army C.I. officer) is that someone is held out as bait by an intelligence service, to attract parties possibly of interest. Let's say Oswald was a dangle. Whom did he attract that would not be known to the intelligence service that was dangling him? Certainly no one in New Orleans or Dallas. Guys like DeM., Ferrie, and Bannister would be clearly displayed on any intel service's radar screen. What about Russia? Sure, Oswald attracted the attention of the KGB, but so what.

The one place where the Oswald identity may have been used as a dangle was in Mexico City. It's easy for me to believe the CIA (or some other intel service) dangled in a clumsy way an impersonation of Oswald in front of the Cubans and Russians.

I think there's general agreement on this, Jon, i.e. when OSWALD was in the USSR he was used as a "dangle" by the ONI or CIA or whatever Intelligence Agency sent him there.

That was pointed out by Ex-CIA Agent Victor Marchetti in the 1990's. It seems to me that the ONI/CIA wanted OSWALD to stay in the USSR much longer than he did -- but his wife just had a baby and he wanted to show off his fatherhood to his family back in the USA. So he quit the USSR program.

IMHO, this was the reason why the Marines lowered OSWALD's discharge status -- OSWALD had broken his contract as a "dangle".

As I recall, Marchetti also explained the value to the CIA of having multiple "dangles" in the USSR, strategically positioned. They wanted to keep their "dangles" inside the USSR as long as possible -- ideally until the end of the Cold War.

By breaking his "dangle" contract, this suggests to me that OSWALD lost the favor of the Intelligence Agencies, and he was too young and naïve to know what he was doing. He always wanted to get back into their good graces. This explains how Guy Banister and Company could so easily exploit OSWALD in NOLA, by pretending to be official agents for the CIA.

But after OSWALD left the USSR, the Intelligence Agencies would only regard OSWALD with suspicion, and would think twice before laying on any more interviews; it seems to me.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Did the Marine Corps "lower Oswald's "discharge status," as you put it, while he was still in Russia or not until he'd come back to the U.S.?

No need for a lecture here. I already know that before he went to Russia he was given a "dependency discharge" from active duty and placed into the Reserves. Then after he defected he was given an "undesireable discharge" which his mother mistakenly told him in a letter was a more serious "dishonorable discharge."

--Tommy

Edited April 7, 2015 by Thomas Graves