Was Oswald an Intelligence Agent?

[David Josephs]

David Josephs: Just a question, nothing more. Assuming Marina's husband did not travel to M.C. at the end of September 1963 and went to Houston instead (as I think you've written), what do you think he did for the time period he was supposedly in M.C.? Thanks.

I cover some of this in pt 6 of the Mexico series at CTKA which just now was posted.... http://www.ctka.net/2015/chapter6_3c.pdf

On Sept 24th FBI NOLA sent in a report to Hoover (page 3) related to the the earlier August reports about his arrest down there.

The next report generated by the FBI which does not rely on CIA reports related to Mexico is Kaack's on Oct 31st (page 11)

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=10413&relPageId=2

The FBI, on it's own, does not know where Oswald is... or as I discuss in the paper... he went to Odio and the FBI either knows and does not say, or simply does not know where he is during the time in question.

The EVIDENCE offers that a Harvey Oswald was in Austin at the SSS office on Sept 25th... what I said about Houston was that the FBI made the assumption that he took a bus which was not identified until Sept 64 and then backdated to Dec 10th 1963... a 12:20 bus from NOLA to Houston for which there are no records or evidence. The Twifords claim he called their house between 7-10pm yet this bus does not arrive until closer to 11pm. The story of the man in Houston buying a ticket from HAMMETT is also an interesting one... and begs the question as to why Oswald would buy tickets one at a time for an innocent trip to Mexico City when 3 and 4 part tickets were available taking him all the way there.

As to what he was doing... the EVIDENCE suggests he traveled with two Cubans thru Austin and visits Odio in the evening of the 27th.

On Sept 28th we have a Sports Drome sighting in the Evidence. Who this is, as I've said many times now, is not really the point... the testimony it was Oswald remains...

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=44&relPageId=378

Liebeler: The Commission had information to the effect that sometime during November 1963, you saw a gentleman at the rifle range whom you subsequently came to believe was LEE HARVEY OSWALD?

Price: That's right. The first time I saw this person was in September, the last week, the last Saturday of September, and that was the afternoon they opened the rifle range.

Liebeler: On the last Saturday of September? That would be Saturday, September 28, 1963?

Price: Yes

The FBI's initial report WCD1 states that the FBI received reports that someone possibly identical to Lee Harvey Oswald had been in Mexico (page 12).

It takes the FBI until Nov 1st to find, via Ruth Paine, that he had been working at the TSBD and living at some unknown location in Dallas - no mention of him staying with her, which he had since Oct 4th..

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?docId=57690&relPageId=178

If you would go read the work you will see that the FBI uses its own sources to see if Oswald was in Mexico.

On the 4th, 6th and 8th of Nov reports come in that none of the sources in Mexico City has any information related to Oswald having been seen or contacting anyone in the Cuban/Russian Communist communities. The Nov 8th report discusses a check at the Gobernacion (FBI's asset OCHOA works here) and yet again... negative results for Oswald. OCHOA (and his dept) will be the source for all the travel evidence the FBI secures on Oswald...

On page 44 of the article we see that once again the FBI's sources in Mexico City cannot find any proof Oswald was there - this report is dated 11/23 - and is followed on page 46 with the CIA report from Win Scott (Willard C Curtis) to CIA HQ laying out the CIA's story which never changed...

He is positively identified by Odio and her sister as the man who came to their home... and she narrowed the date down to the 26th, 27th or 28th.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?

Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?

Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. (26^th was a Thursday and a travel day, while CIA reports place an Oswald in Mexico on the 27^th and 28^th)

On Nov 27th CHAPMAN reports that they are aware Oswald made a long distance call to Irving on Oct 4th from Dallas...

https://www.maryferrell.org/mffweb/archive/viewer/showDoc.do?mode=searchResult&absPageId=742220

Other than that, I have found no physical evidence from the FBI which hints at where they thought he was during that time other than the mountain of fraudulent evidence which changes numerous times between discovery and the final determination of his trip...

[David Josephs]

I'll deal with you when I have more time later today.

Can you include sources, links and/or the evidence from which you come to any conclusions... ?

Better yet, go read the work first... or will we be given your opinionated attack-rhetoric based on what you think I said and what you think the evidence is rather than doing your homework first?

Why not ask Jim D if you can prepare a review and critique of the 6 articles? that way you can not read it and make it up as you go along to the CTKA crowd as well

.

[James R Gordon]

Bumped

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

I read your Chapter 6 at CTKA today.

It appears to me from what you relate that the FBI was pretty seriously trying to keep tabs on Marina's husband post his NOLA arrest and that the Bureau lost track of him for the period he was supposedly (but as you argue, not actually) in Mexico City.

Which forces me to reconsider whether Oswald was working (or thought he was working) for some intelligence service. I'm not convinced he was, but for Oswald to drop off the FBI's radar screen so precipitously and so definitely means he was up to something possibly secretive. Something about which the FBI appears to have known nothing. Something about which the CIA appears to have known nothing, given the clumsy impersonations in M.C.

Which suggests to me that if Oswald was working for some intelligence service, it wasn't the FBI or the CIA. Which makes all the more interesting J. Lee Rankin's revelation of information at an early W.C. Executive Session that Oswald had an "FBI number" and was being paid something like $200 a month by the FBI. I've always discounted this information. Perhaps, though, Oswald was being compensated by some other intelligence service masquerading as the FBI.

I don't see facts to support this supposition. In particular, I see nothing indicating Oswald had a secret source of income. But who knows? In any event, Oswald's disappearance in late September-early October bears deep consideration IMO.

[Paul Trejo]

CIA transcripts of an encounter does not prove this man was Oswald - regardless of whether the CIA or Greg places his name before the quotes...

But this is REAL testimony:

------

Mr. CORNWELL. What differences were there?

Senor AZCUE. Many differences . The individual who visited the consulate is one whose physiognomy or whose face I recall very 'clearly . He had a hard face. He had very straight eyebrows, cold, hard, and straight eyes. His cheeks were thin. His nose was very straight and pointed. This gentleman looks like he is somewhat heavier, more filled, his eyes are at an angle with the outside of his eye, at an angle with his face. I would have never identified him or recognized him.

I believe I can recall with fairly good accuracy the individual in such a way that I could recognize him now in a group of 100, that is better than a photograph of him because obviously during a period of 15 years he might change. I think I could recognize him, and this is not him.

...

===========

Can you explain how what GP wrote here proves that our Oswald is that Oswald when the two people he supposedly interacted with contradict the CIA's info?

Well, David, we have solid evidence from Bill Simpich that somebody deliberately IMPERSONATED Lee Harvey OSWALD while he was in Mexico City.

This is what started the mole-hunt that Bill Simpich is now famous for confirming so thoroughly in his recent book, "State Secret" (2014).

This has nothing to do with that large, buff, Russian guy in the CIA photos. We know from Bill Simpich that this photo was inserted randomly into OSWALD's 201 file as part of the mole-hunt effort by the top brass of the CIA. The same goes for changing OSWALD's middle name to "Henry."

With such solid, historically verifiable data as Bill Simpich provided, why would anybody be surprised that OSWALD was being IMPERSONATED in Mexico City?

Yet we also have solid evidence from Edwin Lopez and the Lopez Report that Lee Harvey OSWALD himself really was at the Mexico City building of consulates.

So both accounts are correct -- the testimony that Mark posted was about the REAL OSWALD, and the testimony that you posted was about the FAKE OSWALD -- both in Mexico City.

I have no problem with that. The lack of photographs of the REAL OSWALD in Mexico City is entirely explained by the mole-hunt that Bill Simpich confirmed for us.

The LOPEZ REPORT still remains to be satisfactorily recognized here, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 19, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

...He [OSWALD] is positively identified by Odio and her sister as the man who came to their home... and she narrowed the date down to the 26th, 27th or 28th.

Mr. LIEBELER. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?

Mrs. ODIO. It was immediately.

Mr. LIEBELER. As soon as you saw his picture?

Mrs. ODIO. Immediately; I was so sure.

Mr. LIEBELER. Do you have any doubt about it?

Mrs. ODIO. I don't have any doubts.

Mr. LIEBELER. Did you have any doubt about it then?

Mrs. ODIO. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.

Mr. LIEBELER. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?

Mrs. ODIO. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday. (26^th was a Thursday and a travel day, while CIA reports place an Oswald in Mexico on the 27^th and 28^th)

...

Well, David, Sylvia Odio was very clear that she could NOT remember the exact date. Gaeton Fonzi suspects that she meant Wednesday the 25th.

BTW, IMHO almost all of the sightings of a second Oswald were simply errors. Oswald was not on any bus to Mexico -- none of that testimony stood up under cross-examination. Throw it all out.

Also, Oswald had plenty of time on his hands, being unemployed for most of 1963 (despite having held three jobs in 1963; each one lasted only a few weeks). So his presence at a gun range, or at a car dealership are not surprising. But all these extra "sightings" of an Oswald "double" are mostly mistaken, as far as I can see.

As for the Mexico City IMPERSONATION, that was real, real, real, and was proved by Bill Simpich with rigorous logic and empirical artifacts.

Sylvia Odio is completely believable, IMHO, and in the opinion of Gaeton Fonzi, and many others. IMHO Loran Hall wanted to toy with her -- to play with her mind, and that's why he paused his caravan to Mexico City just long enough to pay her a visit with his scam.

By the way, I've read that when "Leopoldo" called back that weekend, to get fresh with Odio, he not only mentioned that OSWALD might kill JFK, but he also mentioned that OSWALD might kill Fidel Castro. This tallies with my portrait of OSWALD.

The only legitimate OSWALD double that I recognize was the one who appeared in Mexico City consulates, after OSWALD had already been there. The telephone IMPERSONATION and resulting mole-hunt remain by far the most important clues.

IMHO, David Morales and his quislings were behind the Mexico City IMPERSONATION of OSWALD. They tried like madmen to forge a personal connection between OSWALD and KGB Agent Valerie Kostikov.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 20, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

... In particular, I see nothing indicating Oswald had a secret source of income. But who knows? In any event, Oswald's disappearance in late September-early October bears deep consideration IMO.

Well, Jon, since you're interested in the Intelligence Agency angle of OSWALD, you should also be interested in the Lopez Report.

Also, regarding outside income, wasn't it demonstrated to everybody's satisfaction that when OSWALD ordered hundreds of FPCC flyers and other stationery for his Fake FPCC in NOLA, that receipts show that it was paid by a CIA account?

Now -- some might say that proves OSWALD was a CIA Agent -- I say baloney.

At most it proves that OSWALD wanted badly to work for the CIA, and was on a prove-yourself mission with them. David Atlee Phillips admitted in his bio-novel (The Amlash Legacy) that he was grooming OSWALD to kill Fidel Castro -- and that this included the Mexico City period.

Yes, OSWALD talked about getting into Cuba any way he could that summer -- in order to meet the Kill-Fidel team there.

However, claimed Phillips, "somebody" intercepted OSWALD for the Dallas plot.

This is what went down, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

[David Josephs]

Jon...

There is the possibility that the FBI removed reports from that time period on purpose... once the CIA, State and I&NS reports start talking about Oswald having been in Mexico the FBI/Hoover either knows immediately this is wrong since they DO know where he is... or they are caught off guard and didn't know where he was... and that's almost worse to Hoover. Chapman knew about the call on Oct 4th to "irvin or irvine" TX. It's hard to believe that it's not until the 1st of Nov that the FBI knows where Ozzie is...

So in classic CYA they did not challenge the CIA's information about Oswald in Mexico, they help create the story... so if Hoover knows Oswald was not in Mexico, what repercussions does this have with STATE and I&NS as well as CIA? The FBI reports keep coming back negative - the tourist visa does not say AUTO yet everything else does.

The evidence has to be changed from one bus to another, one time to another, while the fraudulent evidence just thrown away is not revealed for the fraud it is... i.e. FRONTERA's 2pm Oct 2 departure ... the "presidential staff" is helping secure these documents... OCHOA is helping secure them while adding "notes" to the docs to help the investigation... meanwhile the president of Mexico and Mexican ambassador to Cuba have an interesting convo... about what Duran has to say about money changing hands... Alvarado's story about the 17th/18th of Sept, then the 28th of Sept, then no story...

RYBAT GPFLOOR

"..... If ERTHYROIDS can give him something useful and non-sensitive to do for a few months it will help."

That Oswald has a Minox which was not available to the general public is a little telling, no? But money in and out and his life are not easy to pin down. Ruth virtually paid for everything... his expenses were low and Marina's and the baby couldn't have been too much. but it is very hard to know.

It had always been my contention that the Military was the biggest gorilla in this room. Nagell was MID... virtually every CIA/FBI/STATE employee was military at one time in their lives... no reason not to opine that Oswald was too and that CIA was as usual, the front designed to maintain confusion.

Thanks for reading it...

DJ

[Paul Trejo]

I attempted to capture LHO as depicted by others in my book -

http://www.amazon.com/Lee-Harvey-Oswald-his-words-ebook/dp/B00PG7W2QC/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1416340667&sr=1-1

It's a fairly complete portrait of what he said, as testified by those who knew him.

I thought it might be helpful to have, in one place, the totality of who he was according to that record.

Pit that against various theories and you can begin to see where the "legend" snaps into place in lieu of truth.

Well, Mark, I just finished all 310 pages of your interesting Kindle book, "Lee Harvey Oswald In His Own Words."

Your sources were the same sources I would have used -- still, you were obliged to paraphrase for many situations. In most cases, that was adequate -- but when it comes to controversial issues, I feel that was incomplete.

For example, when it comes to the Ex-General Walker angle, you summarize an allegedly three hour conversation at that party with Volkmar Schmidt, George DM and Michael Paine down to one sentence by George DM and one sentence by OSWALD.

You should have, IMHO, used both George 1977 DM's book, "I'm a Patsy! I'm a Patsy!" as well as Volkmar Schmidt's own many references to that party -- to clarify that OSWALD did not hold that opinion before the party, but he did hold the opinion after the party, after lots of hard work by Volkmar and company.

In that book, George DM admits that he would call Ex-General Walker, "General Fokker," to make OSWALD laugh.

I realize that most members here believe that the Edwin Walker shooting was merely a CIA myth -- but IMHO it is no myth -- in fact, it is the very key to unlocking the JFK murder.

IMHO, the JFK murder was another one of Edwin Walker's imaginative flashes of political theater -- like the Ole Miss riots of 1962, or the humiliation of Adlai Stevenson in October 1963. Walker always believed that the USA was *his* country -- and he had hundreds of people who helped him freely -- or paid for the privilege -- out of awe for his WW2 heroism.

As Jon suggested at the start of this thread -- knowing OSWALD is the key to the JFK murder. Your work guides us through much data -- but still misses a few key points, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 20, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Guest Mark Valenti]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

[Paul Trejo]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

OK, and I have another suggestion. The alleged Mexico City Bus Ride of September 25th failed to pass cross-examination, and yet you include a conversation on that bus, as if it was historical fact.

I think that you should have admitted that. Not only are the words of OSWALD paraphrased, but also based on impeached evidence.

IMHO, OSWALD rode in an automobile to Mexico City. Your book states as fact that he rode in a bus -- and fails to acknowledge the other side.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 20, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

Jon,

Your thread asks about the possible relationship of OSWALD to Intelligence Agencies. As I see it, once OSWALD returned to the USA, he was never in the employment of an Intelligence Agency, but he badly wanted to be hired by them again.

Here's what Ed Epstein wrote in 1978:

"Oswald was not, however, prepared fully to accept V.T. Lee's advice. His purpose was not to recruit members and build a functioning Fair Play chapter in New Orleans, but to create a dossier of letters, documents and news clippings which would get him to Cuba..." (Edward Jay Epstein, LEGEND, 1978, "Oswald's Game")

To me, this suggests that OSWALD spent his entire time in NOLA forging documents to fool his way into Cuba.

One cannot be surprised that the folks at the Cuban Consulate regarded OSWALD as a right-wing provocateur -- because that is exactly how he smelled, because that is exactly what he was.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

I came over the years to believe the U.S. military played perhaps the most important role in covering up the facts of the JFK assassination, by controlling the autopsy. I discounted information that the "Kennedy Family" or George Burkeley controlled the autopsy.

Here's what I know: In the early 1960s, the U.S. Army was itching to try out its Air-Mobile Doctrine. The Army was controlled by generals.

It's easy for me to believe high-ranking military officers were recruited early-on to play a role in the JFK assassination and cover-up. Not because they were bad persons. But because of their sense of patriotism. These officers were intelligent, thoughtful, and thoroughly indoctrinated. A toxic combination.

Yet the U.S. military takes a huge hit because of Viet Nam. Its reputation, its prestige, plummets.

My take is that the party responsible for killing JFK has not taken a huge hit. My take is that the party responsible for killing JFK co-opted other parties who thought they'd benefit but didn't.

[Paul Trejo]

David Josephs,

I came over the years to believe the U.S. military played perhaps the most important role in covering up the facts of the JFK assassination, by controlling the autopsy. I discounted information that the "Kennedy Family" or George Burkeley controlled the autopsy.

Here's what I know: In the early 1960s, the U.S. Army was itching to try out its Air-Mobile Doctrine. The Army was controlled by generals.

It's easy for me to believe high-ranking military officers were recruited early-on to play a role in the JFK assassination and cover-up. Not because they were bad persons. But because of their sense of patriotism. These officers were intelligent, thoughtful, and thoroughly indoctrinated. A toxic combination.

Yet the U.S. military takes a huge hit because of Viet Nam. Its reputation, its prestige, plummets.

My take is that the party responsible for killing JFK has not taken a huge hit. My take is that the party responsible for killing JFK co-opted other parties who thought they'd benefit but didn't.

I'll add my two cents here, Jon. Your view is close to mine.

The party responsible for killing JFK has not yet been punished. They were allowed to escape the public pillory because of dire concerns of National Security during the Cold War.

Since the Cold War ended in 1990, President GHW Bush signed the JFK Records Act in 1992, removing 22 years from the 75 year secrecy sentence on JFK murder materials.

The Cold War is therefore the fundamental criterion of the JFK Cover-up.

Because of the Cover-up, the true villains of the JFK murder have also remained secret -- but they will be exposed in 2017, by the JFK Records Act.

I agree with you, also, that they enlisted many people in high places -- including David Morales and E. Howard Hunt.

I cannot find anybody higher than these two in the CIA that I can name without doubts -- but these two confessed.

I cannot find anybody else in the US Military. If Edward Lansdale is innocent, then probably everybody in the Pentagon is also innocent of the JFK murder (no matter what their political views at the time).

If the JFK murder smells like a US Military Operation, that is because Ex-General Edwin Walker was a highly decorated and supremely experienced US General -- before he resigned, becoming the only US General in the 20th century to resign.

The Vietnam war was indeed a national tragedy on multiple levels -- and yet to blame the Pentagon fails to take into consideration the complexity of the US Government.

Military Men take orders. If they wanted to stage a coup d'état, as many people have claimed in the past 50 years (on partisan political grounds) then they would also have had the courage to stand up and declare it -- especially after JFK was shot dead. THAT IS HOW A COUP D'ETAT WORKS.

But they didn't. No Presidential assassin before JFK ever ran away to hide in the shadows like the JFK Killers. This is why I'm convinced that the John Birch Society was a major player in the JFK murder -- at the ideological level of the operation.

The slogan for the JFK Killers was simply this: JFK IS A COMMUNIST.

Yet that was exactly what the John Birch Society printed about FDR, Truman, Ike and JFK -- for fifteen years before the JFK murder. When the JFK Records Act is finally fulfilled, IMHO, then the JBS will have hell to pay, I predict.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited April 21, 2015 by Paul Trejo

[Guest Mark Valenti]

There was already a great deal of dialogue crafted from the DeM material and I didn't want to turn my book into a retread of that period of time. I'll agree that I gave short shrift to the Walker episode -- and I may amend in future editions, thanks for the suggestion.

OK, and I have another suggestion. The alleged Mexico City Bus Ride of September 25th failed to pass cross-examination, and yet you include a conversation on that bus, as if it was historical fact.

I think that you should have admitted that. Not only are the words of OSWALD paraphrased, but also based on impeached evidence.

IMHO, OSWALD rode in an automobile to Mexico City. Your book states as fact that he rode in a bus -- and fails to acknowledge the other side.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

My preface and my afterword state clearly that these dialogues are based on what people claim LHO said.