Oswald Obsession; a Study of the Murder, or the Cover-Up?

[Jon G. Tidd]

David Josephs,

C.E. 399 is, in my opinion, not a bullet that hit both JFK and JBC.

Its provenece is suspect.

Edited March 26, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd

[Terry Martin]

David,

I read Vince's book some time ago as well and was pleased with the depth of his research. On several lines he seemed to stop one iota short of accusations but I think there is enough present to see where he was headed. Perhaps he did not wish to incur the wrath of his USSS contacts. Abraham Bolden's story is another eye-opener.

Jon,

I read a book many years ago - I think perhaps it was Kill Zone but I may just mis-remember - and the author mentioned something on the order of six three-man teams strewn around Dealey Plaza, each team consisting of a spotter, a shooter, and a radioman. Interesting as his premise was, I cannot see the necessity of a spotter for the shooter... where's the time for that?

Shooter shoots.

Spotter checks. "Negatory, you missed."

Shooter shoots.

Spotter checks. "Missed. You got Connally."

Shooter shoots.

Was there really enough time for all those shenanigans?

I think it was a bit simpler than that. But that could just be me.

[David Andrews]

What seems more plausible is that the "spotters" were actually radiomen relaying orders for their companion shooters to fire or not fire based on Kennedy's condition as the limo met a series of marks - perhaps even the yellow-painted sections of Elm Street curb. The person or persons calling the radiomen would be the actual spotters, perhaps looking at cue-givers such as the Dark-complected Man at the Stemmons sign, who raised his fist in the street.

Presumably a minimum amount of shots was desired, with some weapons silenced and some not, to deliver different sound location references or different velocity bullets, or a better degree of accuracy from the non-silenced weapons. All this between the TSBD and the underpass.

Edited March 27, 2015 by David Andrews

[Thomas Graves]

What seems more plausible is that the "spotters" were actually radiomen relaying orders for their companion shooters to fire or not fire based on Kennedy's condition as the limo met a series of marks - perhaps even the yellow-painted sections of Elm Street curb. The person or persons calling the radiomen would be the actual spotters, perhaps looking at cue-givers such as the Dark-complected Man at the Stemmons sign, who raised his fist in the street.

Presumably a minimum amount of shots was desired, with some weapons silenced and some not, to deliver different sound location references or different velocity bullets, or a better degree of accuracy from the non-silenced weapons. All this between the TSBD and the underpass.

Tosh Plumlee told me in an e-mail that DCM was "Gator," a member of the abort team, and that "Gator" was raising his arm like that in an attempt to get the attention of Tosh and Sergio on the opposite grassy knoll, trying to let them know that he'd lost radio contact.

He told me that after the shooting stopped, "Gator" walked down towards the underpass to "clear the area."

He also told me that "Gator's" legs tended to cramp up after sitting for a few minutes, and that the guy filmed several minutes later, walking from right to left across the infield grass with a bad limp, might have been "Gator.".

Sorry Tosh, but the only part I buy is that the guy limping across the infield grass might have been DCM.

--Tommy

Edited March 27, 2015 by Thomas Graves

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff,

thanks for detailed response. My concern remains the same. There are dozens upon dozens of books which pick out quotes from various people to weave their theories around.

Hunt's "confession"

Alleged comments by LBJ at an alleged party

The Marcello "confession"

Alleged comments by JFK about ripping the CIA into a thousand pieces has spawned at least as many theories.

What I have is a bit more tangible than that.

What I cited above was a lot more tangible than that.

[Cliff Varnell]

So Oswald's handlers set him up to be a Lone Nut?

Not initially.

So Oswald's handlers set him up to be a lone nut after JFK was killed but not before?

What changed their mind?

How did they get to LBJ?

Why would I think Greg Parker is making this stuff up out of whole cloth?

[Cliff Varnell]

More revealed in vol 2 - the full solution revealed in vol 3

I like this "full solution" line.

The murder of JFK is unsolvable to a certainty.

I find there to be a preponderance of evidence to establish Persons of Interest in the case, but I'd never say "Averell Harriman had JFK whacked -- that's the full solution."

More like:

I'm suggesting it was Harriman at Foggy Bottom with Helliwell's drug crew cat's paw.

[Cliff Varnell]

I'm suggesting it was Harriman at Foggy Bottom with Helliwell's drug crew cat's paw.

Someone Would Have Talked, Larry Hancock, pg 496:

<quote>

{Gary] Underhill's concern was that he had become aware of a "clique" within the CIA--a clique dealing with weapons and gun-running and making money. These individuals had Far Eastern connections, narcotics was mentioned, supposedly the clique was manipulating political intrigues to serve their own ends. Underhill believed that these individuals had been involved with JFK's murder; he felt that JFK had become aware of their dealings and was about to move against them in some fashion. He also believed that members of the clique knew that Underhill was aware of their dealings and that his own life could well be in jeopardy.

<quote off>

http://spartacus-educational.com/JFKhelliwell.htm

Edited March 27, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Larry Hancock]

Interestingly you can take that a bit further and I do so in Shadow Warfare. It seems that Underhill had specifically been interested in and investigating two areas before the assassination. One of his primary interests was tracking legal but covert arms purchases and shipments. During the fall of 1963 there was not a big spike in covert purchases going to Vietnam because we were sending in American weapons. However, there were some serious buys and leasing of both weapons and related materials such as boats and even aircraft going though a new set of deniable CIA covers.....all under the AM/WORLD project which was being run by Hecksher and Jenkins and which was getting logistics support from a totally compartmentalized logistics group and JMWAVE. A second major Underhill interest was reportedly the continued presence of Soviet missiles in Cuba - given Underhill's long time connections to LIFE magazine you have to wonder what he might have heard about the TILT operation. In any event, his interest in either matter might have made him visible to people like Hecksher and Jenkins and in turn the exiles they were working with - in particular Hecksher apparently had been engaged in some very interesting and covert activities with the Golden Triangle groups following his reassignment from being CIA COS in Laos. His probable Golden Triangle connections are also explored in Shadow Warfare. All this is certainly circumstantial but would be corroborated by Gene Wheaton's information about Quintero, who was heading exile operations and logistics under Artime as part of AM/WORLD.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Cliff,

I'm not so sure "The murder of JFK is unsolvable to a certainty."

I think a solution can be had by answering the question, why was JFK killed? I believe that question has an answer today.

One facile answer is that JFK opposed war in Viet Nam, and war hawks killed him for it.

Another facile answer is that LBJ offed him for selfish reasons.

A third facile answer is that anti-Castro cubans and their CIA handlers killed JFK. And so on. All of these answers are unsatisfactory for the reason they leave far too many loose ends.

There were lots of folks who were glad JFK was killed. There were lots of folks who had reason to obscure the facts of his murder. I think the key lies in taking a very close look at all who benefited in a practical, non-emotional way from JFK's death.

[Cliff Varnell]

Interestingly you can take that a bit further and I do so in Shadow Warfare. It seems that Underhill had specifically been interested in and investigating two areas before the assassination. One of his primary interests was tracking legal but covert arms purchases and shipments. During the fall of 1963 there was not a big spike in covert purchases going to Vietnam because we were sending in American weapons. However, there were some serious buys and leasing of both weapons and related materials such as boats and even aircraft going though a new set of deniable CIA covers.....all under the AM/WORLD project which was being run by Hecksher and Jenkins and which was getting logistics support from a totally compartmentalized logistics group and JMWAVE. A second major Underhill interest was reportedly the continued presence of Soviet missiles in Cuba - given Underhill's long time connections to LIFE magazine you have to wonder what he might have heard about the TILT operation. In any event, his interest in either matter might have made him visible to people like Hecksher and Jenkins and in turn the exiles they were working with - in particular Hecksher apparently had been engaged in some very interesting and covert activities with the Golden Triangle groups following his reassignment from being CIA COS in Laos. His probable Golden Triangle connections are also explored in Shadow Warfare. All this is certainly circumstantial but would be corroborated by Gene Wheaton's information about Quintero, who was heading exile operations and logistics under Artime as part of AM/WORLD.

In his testimony before the Church Com. in '75 Charles Senseney named a unit within US Army Special Operations Division at Ft. Detrick, MD, called the "Staff Support Group" which was a front for CIA operations.

pgs 160-1

http://www.aarclibrary.org/publib/church/reports/vol1/pdf/ChurchV1_6_Senseney.pdf

He cites "a colonel in the Air Force and a colonel in the Army"

Lansdale and Conein?

Edited March 27, 2015 by Cliff Varnell

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff,

I'm not so sure "The murder of JFK is unsolvable to a certainty."

I think a solution can be had by answering the question, why was JFK killed? I believe that question has an answer today.

One facile answer is that JFK opposed war in Viet Nam, and war hawks killed him for it.

Another facile answer is that LBJ offed him for selfish reasons.

A third facile answer is that anti-Castro cubans and their CIA handlers killed JFK. And so on. All of these answers are unsatisfactory for the reason they leave far too many loose ends.

There were lots of folks who were glad JFK was killed. There were lots of folks who had reason to obscure the facts of his murder. I think the key lies in taking a very close look at all who benefited in a practical, non-emotional way from JFK's death.

Looks to me like it was the guys who wanted to develop the Golden Triangle as the center of global heroin production.

But prove that beyond a reasonable doubt?

No way.

[Larry Hancock]

Cliff, as I recall that Fort Detrick unit is discussed by Hank Alberelli and I discuss it in NEXUS as well. Basically the CIA technical services division subcontracted with the Army chemical weapons labs to develop a suite of particular chemical "tools" ranging in use from interrogation to simple incompacation to lethal poisons. A number of them were were intended for use by Staff D and by the security division. Alberelli does a great job of detailing the group and the CIA's relationship to it, interestingly enough the senior officers who would have known about the tools included the head of security, CI and Staff D....which means Angleton and Harvey. Virtually all the work was done without records and on an oral only basis but some materials did surface both under the Church committee and I think the Clinton Administration which investigated questionable military testing of both chemicals and radiation in the fifties and sixties.

If you want to go into military support for CIA logistics and operations, I cover the groups that did that and their evolution in Shadow Warfare. While it did begin while Prouty was around it morphed considerably in the 60's after he had left.

[Jon G. Tidd]

Cliff,

You may be right. A lot of dope was shipped from the Golden Triangle into South Viet Nam. I had, from a language school buddy working under deep cover, second-hand knowledge of this trafficking. From what my buddy told me, the main perps were high-ranking South Vietnamese officials. He had a bird's eye view of the situation.

Was the CIA taking a cut? I have no idea. Today, I wouldn't be surprised.

[Cliff Varnell]

Cliff, as I recall that Fort Detrick unit is discussed by Hank Alberelli and I discuss it in NEXUS as well. Basically the CIA technical services division subcontracted with the Army chemical weapons labs to develop a suite of particular chemical "tools" ranging in use from interrogation to simple incompacation to lethal poisons. A number of them were were intended for use by Staff D and by the security division. Alberelli does a great job of detailing the group and the CIA's relationship to it, interestingly enough the senior officers who would have known about the tools included the head of security, CI and Staff D....which means Angleton and Harvey. Virtually all the work was done without records and on an oral only basis but some materials did surface both under the Church committee and I think the Clinton Administration which investigated questionable military testing of both chemicals and radiation in the fifties and sixties.

If you want to go into military support for CIA logistics and operations, I cover the groups that did that and their evolution in Shadow Warfare. While it did begin while Prouty was around it morphed considerably in the 60's after he had left.

Any links to Paul Helliwell?