Ray Mitcham Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 I've got a bowel on my back side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 you're reading way too much into this. let me try to say this without giving up the answer. you may not like it, but you're not an idiot and if you have not answered the problem then perhaps there IS a challenge to it, and i'm hoping that at least some OTHERS will find the fun in it. OK - there IS NO twist. it's the common error this doctor says many people make in jumping to an errant conclusion from a given set of circumstances. the statement is: If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side. If a vowel is visible on a side of the card, then the rule states that an EVEN number will be found on the other side of the card when it's turned over. it does NOT say "If a vowel is seen on a card 'then you can see if'" anything... The premise is: EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL. that's all it says. NOW read the challenge... See, I told you that you were changing it in the middle of answering. First this is the statement: 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' and you have now changed that to: "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL." That doesn't even come close to being the same thing. See that first sentence If it has .... then it has. NO, Ken. first of all, I haven't CHANGED anything as far as instructions or descriptions go. these are the same words that were used on the original site where the test is. and i haven't changed a letter. I've ONLY described to you what that statement MEANS, and you have some idea that it means something entirely different than what most othhers think it means. If it is raining then I will get wet MEANS that I WILL ALWAYS get wet IF IT IS RAINING. This is what has been established as a premise, a conditional statement, a given. it's what we're trying to prove or disprove. If I bang my knee then I will scream MEANS I WILL ALWAYS scream WHEN I bang my knee. If there's a vowel on a card, THEN there's an EVEN number on the other is the same thing as saying THERE WILL BE an even number on the other side of the card that shows a vowel. this is the statement we are trying to prove or disprove. If you turn the E and a an even number is present, then SO FAR, the statement is proven. If we turn the E and a 7, or a G, is there, then the statement is disproved. those are exactly the same statements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 i have come to see that there is some small confusion on the way the problem is described, so i've taken the problem statement from the other version to reemphasize. The problem is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. (what this means is to prove it true OR false - by using the word prove, this is implied, but i think some have not considered it this way - below is the way it's worded in another version of the SAME test, posted earlier, but i'm reposting it here.) OR Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows a vowel on one face, then its opposite face is an EVEN number? these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently... hopefully this will clear up any ambiguity... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glenn Nall Posted August 12, 2015 Author Share Posted August 12, 2015 I've got a bowel on my back side. so then you must have an even plumber on your front side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Mitcham Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) I am even number on my front side, than I am on my backside. How odd is that? Edited August 12, 2015 by Ray Mitcham Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Iacoletti Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) This is an awesome puzzle. My answer is that you have to turn over everything but the 4. Some people are making the assumption that each card must have a letter on one side and a number on the other. That's not a given. The "K" could have a vowel on the other side. It's irrelevant what's on the other side of the 4 because if it's a vowel it confirms the proposition but if it's not it doesn't violate the proposition. You only need to look for falsifying evidence . in fact, i think that it IS the case that each card contains both letter and number - in another version of this it so states. but this would not effect (affect?) the answer. if you turn over K, you learn the same thing regardless what's on the other side - even or odd, letter or number, it neither proves nor disproves the postulate. It most certainly matters if you state beforehand that each card must have a letter on one side and a number on the other. If that is not a given, then you have to turn over the K because it might have a vowel on the other side. If that is a given then you only have to turn over the E and the 7. Also, some people are making the mistake of thinking that the puzzle makes a distinction between the top side and the bottom side. The postulate is "if a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side", it doesn't say "if a card has a vowel on the top side, then it has an even number on the bottom side". So you can't just check the card that has a vowel on the top. Edited August 12, 2015 by John Iacoletti Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 not exactly correct. depending on what is revealed on the other side, turning certain other(s) can tell you something. this is the problem, in fact - finding what you can learn from turning a card (asking the right question). and not reading the question correctly is probably the single biggest mistake made, i'm seeing. and not reading the question correctly is probably the single biggest mistake made, i'm seeing. I'm gonna bet that 'not stating the question correctly' is going to be the biggest mistake made. as i've said about FIVE times, Ken. i used the technology within my brand new Windows 10 to perform a COPY of the original text as is available on the website from whence this test came, and used the same technology to perform a PASTE function into the POST i created. This has the result of taking each letter of the original text and transferring it, in order, to the new document so that it, in all intents and purposes, save for some protons, probably, is identical to the original. I have been programming in multiple computer languages for about 12 years. People pay me to do this for them. one of the first things I learned, out of the womb, pretty much, was the art of copy and paste without screwing up the objects that i was wanting to move. My MOTHER can even copy and paste, and she can't even feed herself. (not strictly true, sorry mom). what diction and grammar is presented with the said question would have been the choice of its author. not mine. if, unlike the rest of the people who are gladly and harmoniously participating in this exercise, you feel that the question is trickery or otherwise poorly worded, bitch to the doctors who wrote it. I'll send you the links to their websites in a PM if you feel that it will help you arrive at the answer any better. would you like me to send the link to you? everyone else seems to be engaging and learning in this thing, and i don't want to cut it off by posting the answer. See, you made an assumption: I said nothing about your ability to cut and paste. I said nothing about 'you' stating the problem correctly. My statement was: " I'm gonna bet that 'not stating the question correctly' is going to be the biggest mistake made." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) I don't mean to annoy anyone - i do feel that this is an appropriate (and fun) topic in each of us understanding more what's involved in the conclusion forming process which can either lead to errors in deduction or to progress in our pursuit of accuracy and truth in the solution. one of the real reasons i'm into this thing so much is my passion for 'problem solving,' and i'm sure that's the case for many of ya'll. so these kinds of things are fun, and good for our brains (which we need to solve this thing!) i'm just pasting in this little bit of text and this quick test i found (that I failed) without the answer. if any of you have seen it already, which is very likely, please don't publish the answer, or cheat. so, check it out: If...then... Conditional reasoning is based on an 'if A then B' construct that posits B to be true if A is true. Note that this leaves open the question of what happens when A is false, which means that in this case, B can logically be either true or false. Conditional traps A couple of definitions: In the statement 'If A then B', A is the antecedent and B is the consequent. You can affirm or deny either the antecedent or consequent, which may lead to error. Denying the consequent Denying the consequent means going backwards, saying 'If B is false, then A must also be false.' Thus if you say 'If it is raining, I will get wet', then the trap is to assume that if I am not getting wet then it is not raining. Denying the antecedent Denying the antecedent is making assumptions about what will happen if A is false. Thus if you say 'If it is raining, I will get wet' and is not raining, I might assume that I will not get wet. But then I could fall in the lake. Affirming the consequent This is making assumptions about A if B is shown to be true. Thus if I make the statement 'If it is raining, I will get wet', then if I am getting wet it does not mean that it is raining. The card trap A classic trap was created some years ago; Four cards are laid out as below: The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' The problem is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. How many and which card(s)? OR (these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently): Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows a vowel on one face, then its opposite face is an EVEN number? Discuss it among yourselves... Ok Glenn, here is post no. 1 clearly the question here is:"The condition is now established (true): 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.'" And the here is post no.21 where the question has become: : EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL. In the first statement, there is an If......then condition... That conditional statement is not included in the 'restatement in 21. The word If, to me means that you look at a card and IF it satisties a condition as this does IF Vowel, then ........... Remember the condition is established as true that IF vowel then even. Nothing else. While the restatement meets one possible condition, it implies something else which is not true. The restatement "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL" has no IF condition or a 'Then' condition. Edited August 12, 2015 by Kenneth Drew Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 i have come to see that there is some small confusion on the way the problem is described, so i've taken the problem statement from the other version to reemphasize. The problem is to decide which are the minimum cards that need to be turned over to prove that the conditional statement is true. (what this means is to prove it true OR false - by using the word prove, this is implied, but i think some have not considered it this way - below is the way it's worded in another version of the SAME test, posted earlier, but i'm reposting it here.) OR Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows a vowel on one face, then its opposite face is an EVEN number? these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently... hopefully this will clear up any ambiguity... these are the same challenges, just worded a little differently... hopefully this will clear up any ambiguity... Ahem......just worded a little differently...or 'restated' a little differently? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 you're reading way too much into this. let me try to say this without giving up the answer. you may not like it, but you're not an idiot and if you have not answered the problem then perhaps there IS a challenge to it, and i'm hoping that at least some OTHERS will find the fun in it. OK - there IS NO twist. it's the common error this doctor says many people make in jumping to an errant conclusion from a given set of circumstances. the statement is: If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side. If a vowel is visible on a side of the card, then the rule states that an EVEN number will be found on the other side of the card when it's turned over. it does NOT say "If a vowel is seen on a card 'then you can see if'" anything... The premise is: EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL. that's all it says. NOW read the challenge... See, I told you that you were changing it in the middle of answering. First this is the statement: 'If a card has a vowel on one side, then it has an even number on the other side.' and you have now changed that to: "EVEN NUMBERS will ALWAYS be found on the other side of a VOWEL." That doesn't even come close to being the same thing. See that first sentence If it has .... then it has. NO, Ken. first of all, I haven't CHANGED anything as far as instructions or descriptions go. these are the same words that were used on the original site where the test is. and i haven't changed a letter. I've ONLY described to you what that statement MEANS, and you have some idea that it means something entirely different than what most othhers think it means. If it is raining then I will get wet MEANS that I WILL ALWAYS get wet IF IT IS RAINING. This is what has been established as a premise, a conditional statement, a given. it's what we're trying to prove or disprove. If I bang my knee then I will scream MEANS I WILL ALWAYS scream WHEN I bang my knee. If there's a vowel on a card, THEN there's an EVEN number on the other is the same thing as saying THERE WILL BE an even number on the other side of the card that shows a vowel. this is the statement we are trying to prove or disprove. If you turn the E and a an even number is present, then SO FAR, the statement is proven. If we turn the E and a 7, or a G, is there, then the statement is disproved. those are exactly the same statements. If there's a vowel on a card, THEN there's an EVEN number on the other is the same thing as saying THERE WILL BE an even number on the other side of the card that shows a vowel. This is a good sentence to show the problem. Let's start with "IF" there's a vowel on a card, "THEN" there's an Even number on the other (I'll insert the word 'side' here which I'm sure was inadvertently left out) you may have to assume that the cards are laying on a table and you can only see one side. then it says 'if' there's a vowel on a card' so at that point, the only card of interest is 'if there's a vowel visible' then you can look to see if it is a fact that it has an even number on the other side. Even in the 'restatement' it says 'there will be' and even number on the other side of the card 'that SHOWS A VOWEL'. So "if there a vowel" or the 'card that shows a vowel' in either case you can only see what is on the side that is visible and it must have a vowel on it. And yes i'm enjoying this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon G. Tidd Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 (edited) Glenn Nall: You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side... Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? Another shot (pun intended). If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an even number, the proposition is shown to be true in one case. It is not shown to be true universally. If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an odd number, the proposition is shown to be false in one case. It is not shown to be false universally. The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The 4 card can be discarded. The other side of the 4 card could be a vowel or could be a consonant. Discard the 4 card. The 7 card is key, in a sense. The other side of the 7 card could be a vowel (proposition not proved universally) or could be a consonant (nothing proved). Glenn, I believe you've asked a question that cannot be answered. Cannot be answered because of lack of definition. Your question is: Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? You do not define "truth of the proposition". You present four cases. What if the proposition is false in the four cases you present but true in a fifth case? For example, in the fifth case of a card having "a" on one side and "2" on the other. How many cases may we consider? If you maintain the universe of all cases is composed of the four cases you present, I have to ask, must the proposition hold true (i.e., not be contradicted) in each of the four cases you present? Or must it be true in only one of the cases you present? I'm fascinated by your diary. It poses a set of facts, and then asks a question about the facts. The issue for me is whether your question makes sense. Edited August 12, 2015 by Jon G. Tidd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Iacoletti Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The other side of the K card could be a vowel. There's nothing in Glenn's problem statement that excludes this possibility. If there is a vowel on the other side of the K card, then the proposition is proved false. You cannot discard the K card. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 12, 2015 Share Posted August 12, 2015 Glenn Nall: You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side... Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? Another shot (pun intended). If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an even number, the proposition is shown to be true in one case. It is not shown to be true universally. If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an odd number, the proposition is shown to be false in one case. It is not shown to be false universally. The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The 4 card can be discarded. The other side of the 4 card could be a vowel or could be a consonant. Discard the 4 card. The 7 card is key, in a sense. The other side of the 7 card could be a vowel (proposition not proved universally) or could be a consonant (nothing proved). Glenn, I believe you've asked a question that cannot be answered. Cannot be answered because of lack of definition. Your question is: Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? You do not define "truth of the proposition". You present four cases. What if the proposition is false in the four cases you present but true in a fifth case? For example, in the fifth case of a card having "a" on one side and "2" on the other. How many cases may we consider? If you maintain the universe of all cases is composed of the four cases you present, I have to ask, must the proposition hold true (i.e., not be contradicted) in each of the four cases you present? Or must it be true in only one of the cases you present? I'm fascinated by your diary. It poses a set of facts, and then asks a question about the facts. The issue for me is whether your question makes sense. You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side. Glenn Nall: You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side... Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? Another shot (pun intended). If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an even number, the proposition is shown to be true in one case. It is not shown to be true universally. If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an odd number, the proposition is shown to be false in one case. It is not shown to be false universally. The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The 4 card can be discarded. The other side of the 4 card could be a vowel or could be a consonant. Discard the 4 card. The 7 card is key, in a sense. The other side of the 7 card could be a vowel (proposition not proved universally) or could be a consonant (nothing proved). Glenn, I believe you've asked a question that cannot be answered. Cannot be answered because of lack of definition. Your question is: Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? You do not define "truth of the proposition". You present four cases. What if the proposition is false in the four cases you present but true in a fifth case? For example, in the fifth case of a card having "a" on one side and "2" on the other. How many cases may we consider? If you maintain the universe of all cases is composed of the four cases you present, I have to ask, must the proposition hold true (i.e., not be contradicted) in each of the four cases you present? Or must it be true in only one of the cases you present? I'm fascinated by your diary. It poses a set of facts, and then asks a question about the facts. The issue for me is whether your question makes sense. Glenn Nall: You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side... Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? Another shot (pun intended). If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an even number, the proposition is shown to be true in one case. It is not shown to be true universally. If the E card is turned over, and the other side has an odd number, the proposition is shown to be false in one case. It is not shown to be false universally. The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The 4 card can be discarded. The other side of the 4 card could be a vowel or could be a consonant. Discard the 4 card. The 7 card is key, in a sense. The other side of the 7 card could be a vowel (proposition not proved universally) or could be a consonant (nothing proved). Glenn, I believe you've asked a question that cannot be answered. Cannot be answered because of lack of definition. Your question is: Which card(s) must you turn over in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? You do not define "truth of the proposition". You present four cases. What if the proposition is false in the four cases you present but true in a fifth case? For example, in the fifth case of a card having "a" on one side and "2" on the other. How many cases may we consider? If you maintain the universe of all cases is composed of the four cases you present, I have to ask, must the proposition hold true (i.e., not be contradicted) in each of the four cases you present? Or must it be true in only one of the cases you present? I'm fascinated by your diary. It poses a set of facts, and then asks a question about the facts. The issue for me is whether your question makes sense You are shown a set of four cards placed on a table, each of which has a number on one side and a letter on the other side. So now we are starting with a different set of rules. in order to test the truth of the proposition that if a card shows an even number on one face, then its opposite face is a vowel? OK, now we're back to an If or then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 The K card can be discarded. The other side of the K card could be an even number, or could be an odd number. Discard the K card. The other side of the K card could be a vowel. There's nothing in Glenn's problem statement that excludes this possibility. If there is a vowel on the other side of the K card, then the proposition is proved false. You cannot discard the K card. If there is a vowel on the other side of the K card, then the proposition is proved false. If there is a vowel on the reverse side you wouldn't know it because you have not seen it since you can't turn over a card that does not fit the first qualifier, If a vowel......then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenneth Drew Posted August 13, 2015 Share Posted August 13, 2015 I've got a bowel on my back side. If it's ON YOUR BACK you're in trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Please sign in to comment
You will be able to leave a comment after signing in
Sign In Now