Who Had Such Power?

[Jon G. Tidd]

James Douglass, in a video clip presented here by Douglas Caddy, pulls from his wallet a piece of paper on which are written the words of a JFK insider regarding the autopsy photos and x-rays, which are at such odds with the pronouncements of the Bethesda physicians. The insider says the photos and x-rays, because they are government documents, must be correct. The insider goes on to say, if the photos and x-rays are phony, the deception defies understanding. Douglass ends his presentation by saying that's what is meant by "unspeakable".

Who had the power to cause the autopsy photos and x-rays to be falsified?

That is a central question. It goes to why JFK was killed and why his killing continues to be covered up. It goes to the reality of who had such power, to kill the President of the United States and get away with it.

Please let's strike LBJ, beneficiary though he was. The mafia. The CIA. The FBI. The rightwingers. The DPD. The anti-Castro Cubans. Castro. All of 'em. Strike 'em because they are distractions. They draw our attention but are dead ends.

Certain wealthy Americans who had and have global financial ambitions come to mind. Americans whose goal is to make money. Period. Americans who had and have their own intelligence networks. Americans who would easily intersect through intermediaries with foreign operators. Americans who could pull strings way above the reach of the CIA.

This is all speculation. It's curve-fitting.

[Scott Kaiser]

Please let's strike LBJ, beneficiary though he was. The mafia. The CIA. The FBI. The rightwingers. The DPD. The anti-Castro Cubans. Castro. All of 'em. Strike 'em because they are distractions.

I'll believe in my distraction, you believe in what you want.

[Douglas Caddy]

Joseph McBride wrote on Facebook today: The late comedian Bill Hicks said: I have this feeling, man, 'cause you know, it's just a handful of people who run everything, you know … that's true, it's provable. It's not … I'm not a xxxxing conspiracy nut, it's provable. A handful, a very small elite, run and own these corporations, which include the mainstream media. I have this feeling that whoever is elected president, like Clinton was, no matter what you promise on the campaign trail – blah, blah, blah – when you win, you go into this smoke-filled room with the twelve industrialist capitalist scum-xxxxs who got you in there. And you're in this smoky room, and this little film screen comes down … and a big guy with a cigar goes, "Roll the film." And it's a shot of the Kennedy assassination from an angle you've never seen before … that looks suspiciously like it's from the grassy knoll. And then the screen goes up and the lights come up, and they go to the new president, "Any questions?" "Er, just what my agenda is." "First we bomb Baghdad." "You got it …"

[Ron Ecker]

Who had the power to cause the autopsy photos and x-rays to be falsified?

Who had custody of the autopsy photos and x-rays?

[Jon G. Tidd]

Ron,

I understand that Robert Knudsen had two sets of autopsy photos.

The x-rays were taken by the U.S. Navy. I don't know who controlled the x-rays.

I know that the photos and x-rays are in the official record. The two are in conflict.

JFK researchers have written mightily on the x-rays and the photos.

[Guest]

When you think about this sort of thing long enough, explanations like "the aliens from Zeta Reticuli who really control everything" (popular among the lunatic fringe of ufology) can start to seem plausible. But I tend to go the other direction: Who had the power and daring-do to organize and coordinate a multi-faceted conspiracy on the massive scale that conspiracy theorists hypothesize? NO ONE. This is my principle objection to grand conspiracy theories. They simply are not plausible. They collapse upon themselves. The lone nut hypothesis at least passes the "surface plausibility" test, although it rapidly becomes at least somewhat shaky. This is why I have a heavy predisposition toward a small group of rabid fanatics, but not a conspiracy involving everyone from LBJ to $1.25 per hour employees of the TSBD and scores of diverse characters in between. So that is my answer to the original post: NO ONE. The notion of a mysterious cabal of wealthy Americans pulling all these strings strikes me as pretty close to "the aliens from Zeta Reticuli who really control everything."

[David Josephs]

The x-rays were taken by the U.S. Navy. I don't know who controlled the x-rays.

The Secret Service did Jon. The same Secret Service which had a copy of the Zfilm before sunrise Sat morning. The same Secret Service which generated CE399. The same Secret Service who on Dec 5th knew of shots fired further down Elm.

The SS is at the center of this thing... WHEN the xrays were taken is as important as what they show. Finck tells us that xrays had been taken by the time he arrived. These are the post skull destruction images and xrays and had still not yet been "fixed" to move the opening in his head from the front to the back.

The number of xrays and photos was changed repeatedly.

From the ARRB - MD12 is a complete list of xrays and photos. MD190 is a note signed by Ebersole turning 14 xrays over to Kellerman. The corrected (6) 10x12" xrays turn into (6) 8x10" xrays

Ebersole's HSCA depo doesn't compare real well with Sibert/O'Neal, does it? Or the total number of xrays, or what Finck remembers. The real question remains... who secures the morgue so that Humes or ?? can change the wounds? Ebersole I believe was not in the morgue until after the 8pm casket opening.

the prime suspects remain Galloway, Kenney & Burkley claiming that the Kennedy's did not want a complete autopsy.

At the end of the day though, the FBI had investigative control and produced the authoritative report which Johnson tells Russell -

"And then Russell tells him, 'I just don't have time. I'm too busy. I'm too busy.'

LBJ, 'Well, just make the time. That's not going to be anytime anyway to begin with. All your going to do is evaluate the Hoover report he's already made.

Ebersole:

Upon removing the body from the coffin, the anterior aspect, the only things noticeable were a small irregular ecumonic area above the super ecolobular ridge and a neatly sutured transverse surgical wound across the low neck. As we turned the body on the autopsy table there was a textbook classical wound of entrance upper right back to the right of the midline three or four centimeters to the right of the midline just perhaps inside the medial board to the upper scapula.

Again I would like to emphasize this was a textbook wound -- round, smooth, pure pellish, no raised margins. The back of the head was missing and the regular messy wound. At that point we had a wound of entrance, i.e., the back wound, and no known wound of exit.

The initial films showed the usual metallic fragments in the skull but no evidence of a slug, a bullet. This was a little bit disconcerting. We were asked by the Secret Service agents present to repeat the films and did so Once again there was no evidence of a bullet. I assume you are familiar with portable X ray It is not the kind that gives a fine diagnostic but it is helpful in picking up metallic fragments. It would stand out like a sore thumb either intact or shattered.

The autopsy proceeded and at this point I am simply an observer. Dr. Humes in probing the wound of entrance found it to extend perhaps over the apex of the right lung bruising the pleura and appeared to go toward or near the midline of the lower neck.

Sibert/O'Neal:

During the latter stages of this autopsy, Dr. HUMES located an opening which appeared to be a bullet hole which was below the shoulders and two inches to the right of the middle line of the spinal column.

This opening was probed by Dr. HUMES with the finger, at which time it was determined that the trajectory of the missile entering at this point had entered at a downward position of 45 to 60 degrees. Further probing determined that the distance traveled by this missile was a short distance inasmuch as the end of the opening could be felt with the finger

[David G. Healy]

When you think about this sort of thing long enough, explanations like "the aliens from Zeta Reticuli who really control everything" (popular among the lunatic fringe of ufology) can start to seem plausible. But I tend to go the other direction: Who had the power and daring-do to organize and coordinate a multi-faceted conspiracy on the massive scale that conspiracy theorists hypothesize? NO ONE. This is my principle objection to grand conspiracy theories. They simply are not plausible. They collapse upon themselves. The lone nut hypothesis at least passes the "surface plausibility" test, although it rapidly becomes at least somewhat shaky. This is why I have a heavy predisposition toward a small group of rabid fanatics, but not a conspiracy involving everyone from LBJ to $1.25 per hour employees of the TSBD and scores of diverse characters in between. So that is my answer to the original post: NO ONE. The notion of a mysterious cabal of wealthy Americans pulling all these strings strikes me as pretty close to "the aliens from Zeta Reticuli who really control everything."

how about a mysterious cabal promoting Jesus's lifelike image on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Think that scam is from Zeta Reticuli too?

Lone Nutters have spent the past 52 years portraying an image of reasonableness. Until of course case evidence is challenged... More questions than answers. If you're not aware of WC propensity for avoiding case evidence, perhaps you might catch the next bus to Zeta Reticuli, they might be able to help you... lmao!

[Scott Kaiser]

SMH...

[Ron Ecker]

The x-rays were taken by the U.S. Navy. I don't know who controlled the x-rays.

The Secret Service did Jon. The same Secret Service which had a copy of the Zfilm before sunrise Sat morning. The same Secret Service which generated CE399. The same Secret Service who on Dec 5th knew of shots fired further down Elm.

The SS is at the center of this thing... WHEN the xrays were taken is as important as what they show. Finck tells us that xrays had been taken by the time he arrived. These are the post skull destruction images and xrays and had still not yet been "fixed" to move the opening in his head from the front to the back.

The number of xrays and photos was changed repeatedly.

From the ARRB - MD12 is a complete list of xrays and photos. MD190 is a note signed by Ebersole turning 14 xrays over to Kellerman. The corrected (6) 10x12" xrays turn into (6) 8x10" xrays

Ebersole's HSCA depo doesn't compare real well with Sibert/O'Neal, does it? Or the total number of xrays, or what Finck remembers. The real question remains... who secures the morgue so that Humes or ?? can change the wounds? Ebersole I believe was not in the morgue until after the 8pm casket opening.

the prime suspects remain Galloway, Kenney & Burkley claiming that the Kennedy's did not want a complete autopsy.

It seems unlikely to me that any photo or x-ray fakery would or could be done on the spot that night. Photos and x-rays were taken as expected, and which ones to discard, fake, etc would be determined later, while the material was in the custody of the Secret Service. Which sounds like an inside job, having nothing to do with some wealthy Americans somewhere. The latter may have been involved in the assassination, but the cover-up was the work of the government and would qualify, I would think, as high treason.

[Guest]

how about a mysterious cabal promoting Jesus's lifelike image on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Think that scam is from Zeta Reticuli too?

Lone Nutters have spent the past 52 years portraying an image of reasonableness. Until of course case evidence is challenged... More questions than answers. If you're not aware of WC propensity for avoiding case evidence, perhaps you might catch the next bus to Zeta Reticuli, they might be able to help you... lmao!

What "image" the Lone Nutters portray has nothing to do with the merits of the evidence except to those for whom image is more important than evidence. Whether the evidence presents "more questions than answers" is debatable, but in any event no volume of "questions" equates to an elaborate conspiracy except in the minds of those who regard an elaborate conspiracy as axiomatic; the existence of an elaborate conspiracy is a given, and thus questions become "evidence." I am indeed aware of the "WC propensity for avoiding case evidence," but the only explanation for this is likewise not necessarily a grand, multi-faceted conspiracy involving LBJ and his cronies, Hoover and his flunkies, field-level FBI agents, the Mafia, various levels of the CIA, various levels of the Secret Service, various levels of the Dallas police, assorted Texas oilmen, assorted anti-Castro exiles, two or more Lee Harvey Oswalds who had been groomed since childhood, the Bethesda medical staff, Ruth and Michael Paine, Roy Truly, several $1.25 an hour employees at the TSBD, de Mohrenschildt, altered films, altered bodies, phony money orders, Jimmy Hoffa, Daffy Duck, yada yada. Every time an inconvenient truth surfaces, the conspiracy must (and does) become grander and more elaborate to plug the hole. Please, I have been watching crazies weave their fantasies throughout the entire world of weirdness for 50 years. There is an indeed an undeniable UFO phenomenon that is highly mysterious and worthy of investigation; it may ultimately have a prosaic explanation or a jaw-dropping one, but "reptilian aliens controlling the world governments" is simply lunacy.

There may well have been a conspiracy of some sort to kill JFK, but to attempt to hold an elaborate conspiracy theory together by ascribing it to those spooky "wealthy Americans" who are always lurking in the background and controlling the events of the world is indeed in the same vein as the "aliens from Zeta Reticuli." The reality is, there is NO ONE and NO COMBINATION OF SOMEONES who could organize, coordinate and hold together a conspiracy of the magnitude favored by the crazies. This isn't how conspiracies work; this isn't how the world works. Milking the crazies with elaborate conspiracy theories to feed one's ego or line one's pockets is how the world works.

LMAO back at you ... but probably not for the reasons you think.

[Brian Schmidt]

Please let's strike LBJ, beneficiary though he was. The mafia. The CIA. The FBI. The rightwingers. The DPD. The anti-Castro Cubans. Castro. All of 'em. Strike 'em because they are distractions. They draw our attention but are dead ends.

Certain wealthy Americans who had and have global financial ambitions come to mind. Americans whose goal is to make money. Period. Americans who had and have their own intelligence networks. Americans who would easily intersect through intermediaries with foreign operators. Americans who could pull strings way above the reach of the CIA.

This is all speculation. It's curve-fitting.

I don't understand this whole premise. How would wealthy civilians get access to the autopsy and custody of the photographs while established and powerful institutions whose job it is to handle such evidence would not? I agree that wealthy and powerful financial interests had motive, and the ability to pull strings within certain organizations, but can you put together an example scenario where this would be plausible?

[Paul Brancato]

Lance - the lone nutters have it wrong. Let's at least agree on that. From there we can postulate that a cabal committed the act and got rid of Oswald. Where the conspiracy gets massive is in the coverup, which is ongoing. It's easy enough to fit the ongoing factual revelations into that framework without postulating a massive conspiracy to kill JFK. Your analogy to the UFO field works to the extent that crazy theories have the effect of turning people off to the possibility of an underlying truth. In the UFO field that underlying truth is still difficult to discern. In my opinion the underlying truth of the assassination of JFK is not. We can clearly see the fruits of the tree when it comes to that cabal. I also think that when you describe something by exaggerating it, such as the 'wealthy Americans' in the background pulling strings and controlling everything, it is easy enough to tear it down. But the notion that powerful people pull strings we never see is surely real.

[David G. Healy]

how about a mysterious cabal promoting Jesus's lifelike image on the Shroud of Turin, eh? Think that scam is from Zeta Reticuli too?

Lone Nutters have spent the past 52 years portraying an image of reasonableness. Until of course case evidence is challenged... More questions than answers. If you're not aware of WC propensity for avoiding case evidence, perhaps you might catch the next bus to Zeta Reticuli, they might be able to help you... lmao!

What "image" the Lone Nutters portray has nothing to do with the merits of the evidence except to those for whom image is more important than evidence. Whether the evidence presents "more questions than answers" is debatable, but in any event no volume of "questions" equates to an elaborate conspiracy except in the minds of those who regard an elaborate conspiracy as axiomatic; the existence of an elaborate conspiracy is a given, and thus questions become "evidence." I am indeed aware of the "WC propensity for avoiding case evidence," but the only explanation for this is likewise not necessarily a grand, multi-faceted conspiracy involving LBJ and his cronies, Hoover and his flunkies, field-level FBI agents, the Mafia, various levels of the CIA, various levels of the Secret Service, various levels of the Dallas police, assorted Texas oilmen, assorted anti-Castro exiles, two or more Lee Harvey Oswalds who had been groomed since childhood, the Bethesda medical staff, Ruth and Michael Paine, Roy Truly, several $1.25 an hour employees at the TSBD, de Mohrenschildt, altered films, altered bodies, phony money orders, Jimmy Hoffa, Daffy Duck, yada yada. Every time an inconvenient truth surfaces, the conspiracy must (and does) become grander and more elaborate to plug the hole. Please, I have been watching crazies weave their fantasies throughout the entire world of weirdness for 50 years. There is an indeed an undeniable UFO phenomenon that is highly mysterious and worthy of investigation; it may ultimately have a prosaic explanation or a jaw-dropping one, but "reptilian aliens controlling the world governments" is simply lunacy.

There may well have been a conspiracy of some sort to kill JFK, but to attempt to hold an elaborate conspiracy theory together by ascribing it to those spooky "wealthy Americans" who are always lurking in the background and controlling the events of the world is indeed in the same vein as the "aliens from Zeta Reticuli." The reality is, there is NO ONE and NO COMBINATION OF SOMEONES who could organize, coordinate and hold together a conspiracy of the magnitude favored by the crazies. This isn't how conspiracies work; this isn't how the world works. Milking the crazies with elaborate conspiracy theories to feed one's ego or line one's pockets is how the world works.

LMAO back at you ... but probably not for the reasons you think.

"...elaborate conspiracy... conspiracy must (and does) become grander and more elaborate... grand, multi-faceted conspiracy..."

All distractions, dude.... conspiracy at ANY level is still a conspiracy, a conspiracy murdered JFK, WHY and who, forget the adjectives, we're lookin' for the beef!

"WC propensity for avoiding case evidence..." What did they want to avoid seeing and/or finding? And how did they even know to avoid anything BEFORE they started the investigation? Why? Conspiracy?

[Guest]

"...elaborate conspiracy... conspiracy must (and does) become grander and more elaborate... grand, multi-faceted conspiracy..."

All distractions, dude.... conspiracy at ANY level is still a conspiracy, a conspiracy murdered JFK, WHY and who, forget the adjectives, we're lookin' for the beef!

"WC propensity for avoiding case evidence..." What did they want to avoid seeing and/or finding? And how did they even know to avoid anything BEFORE they started the investigation? Why? Conspiracy?

I actually do not disagree with most of this, dude. Wildly implausible conspiracy theories are indeed a "distraction" ... from the truth, from the credibility of any sane and sincere effort to get at the truth. They discredit the entire field in the minds of the public. They attract the crazies (by which I do not mean "people who are insane" but rather that fascinating segment of the population, often highly intelligent and educated, which derives satisfaction from believing the world is fantastically mysterious, nothing is as it seems, only some mysterious priesthood knows the truth, and who are inevitably attracted to the most wild and implausible explanations for everything), who then co-opt and overrun the entire field. I regret repeatedly using the UFO field as an analogy, but the fit is almost perfect - and the UFO field has indeed become one big "distraction," thanks to calculated campaigns of disinformation and self-promoters who feed the crazies what they want to hear and send them off on tangents.

Much of what the Warren Commission did and didn't do could be (not necessarily is) explained by the trauma to the nation of having its President's head blown off in public view, the nuclear tension with the Soviet Union, and the desire to wrap up the case neatly and quickly and put the event behind us.

Yes, conspiracy on any level is still a conspiracy. But a conspiracy involving a comparative handful of anti-Castro fanatics (just as an example) would be a far different matter than an elaborate conspiracy reaching from LBJ to the FBI, Secret Service, CIA, Army Intelligence and on and on. I thought the original post was interesting in asking who had the power to cause the autopsy photos and x-rays to be falsified. My point was simply that when you take the conspiracy to this level of elaborateness, the most plausible answer is: no one.

The original post was also interesting in saying: "Please let's strike LBJ, beneficiary though he was. The mafia. The CIA. The FBI. The rightwingers. The DPD. The anti-Castro Cubans. Castro. All of 'em. Strike 'em because they are distractions. They draw our attention but are dead ends." Jon then suggested what I see as the extremely speculative and unlikely theory of "certain wealthy Americans" with "global ambitions." My point here is that this is the sort of speculation one is driven to when one's elaborate conspiracy theory just doesn't hold together - i.e., it was all the workings of the mysterious priesthood that controls the world, be it certain wealthy Americans or reptilian aliens. I would not be ready to jettison all the categories Jon is apparently willing to jettison, but my informed guess would be that the truth is likely to be found in a much more limited and smaller-scale conspiracy. If this proves to be the case, it will be a massive disappointment to the crazies and will, frankly, not be nearly as much fun as imagining LBJ and Hoover as the masterminds.

So my $0.02 worth is simply: Realistically, no one had the power to falsify the autopsy photos and x-rays (which would entail a great deal more than simply altering the autopsy photos and x-rays). Ergo, the most plausible theory is that they were not falsified - that what appears to be problematical can be explained by the fact that the world is a messy place on the day a President is assassinated. This would not mean, "There was no conspiracy." It would simply mean, "If there was a conspiracy, it did not extend to the unlikely elaborateness of falsifying autopsy photos and x-rays."