How Did They Get Roscoe White To Lean Like That And Not Fall Over?

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sorry about that Michael. I did see the gif you posted but for some reason it didn't really click with me until I saw Sandy's gif. As I said, seeing the photo of the two tourists standing in the back yard with the cardboard Oswald planted a seed in my brain, and it finally sprouted. I'm sure your gif helped too.

[Michael Walton]

Sorry about that Michael...

No problem, Bob. That second GIF (not mine) is pretty interesting though. If you keep watching it over and over it looks almost like the body was standing a little more erect in one on them (but still doing the weird lean) then he leans backward in the other one. You can tell this, too, by the shadow of his head as it falls onto the bottom of the fence.

So to recap, the bad guys took several photos of someone posing as Oswald back there, telling him (or not) to stand that way then to lean backward toward the fence (or not).

Marina said she only took one photo of LH; perhaps that was the photo they used for his head to do the head pasting since the BYP head looks very similar IMO.

Does anyone know what the providence is for LH's statement when he was shown the photos in jail and he said they're fake, with his head pasted onto someone's body? If someone can tell me and others where exactly that statement came from, then I'm always going to believe that these photos were faked to drum up the charges against him.

Thanks.

[Robert Prudhomme]

Sorry about that Michael...

No problem, Bob. That second GIF (not mine) is pretty interesting though. If you keep watching it over and over it looks almost like the body was standing a little more erect in one on them (but still doing the weird lean) then he leans backward in the other one. You can tell this, too, by the shadow of his head as it falls onto the bottom of the fence.

So to recap, the bad guys took several photos of someone posing as Oswald back there, telling him (or not) to stand that way then to lean backward toward the fence (or not).

Marina said she only took one photo of LH; perhaps that was the photo they used for his head to do the head pasting since the BYP head looks very similar IMO.

Does anyone know what the providence is for LH's statement when he was shown the photos in jail and he said they're fake, with his head pasted onto someone's body? If someone can tell me and others where exactly that statement came from, then I'm always going to believe that these photos were faked to drum up the charges against him.

Thanks.

Yes, the photos are quite amazing. I also think Tom's discovery of the stereoscopic effect to be quite amazing too. I'm waiting patiently for my stereoscopic viewer to arrive in the mail from Ebay.

While the stereoscopic effect might just be a fluke stemming from two photos being taken, one immediately after the other but from slightly different angles, I am intrigued by how Tom described Oswald's head, in stereoscopic view, as seeming to stand out closer to the photographer by what appeared to him to be close to a foot.

Your last question is a very good one. I think he made this statement while being interrogated by Fritz.

Edited October 16, 2016 by Robert Prudhomme

[Tom Hume]

Images (2) for Stereoscope viewer. Copy to Microsoft Word or Pages, size the two images to equal height, size image to fit your viewer, and print a copy (Don't get the pictures backwards or you'll go blind).

I meant to post these updated images a couple of days ago but forgot.

Tom

Edited October 16, 2016 by Tom Hume

[Paul Trejo]

...Does anyone know what the providence is for LH's statement when he was shown the photos in jail and he said they're fake, with his head pasted onto someone's body? If someone can tell me and others where exactly that statement came from, then I'm always going to believe that these photos were faked to drum up the charges against him.

Thanks.

Michael,

Robert is correct that Captain Will Fritz, who interrogated LHO on Friday, Saturday and Sunday after the JFK assassination, and took no notes, is the original source of this claim that LHO said the BYP photos were fake.

Others who attended those interrogations, including FBI Agent James Hosty and Postmaster Harry Holmes, repeated Fritz's story, but only in the context of the Fritz interrogation. Here's an extract from his WC testimony. The time frame here is Saturday, 11/23/1963, about 6pm.

--------- BEGIN EXTRACT OF WILL FRITZ TO WC ---------------------------

Mr. BALL. ...Ad you showed Oswald a picture at this time?

Mr. FRITZ. A picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. It showed a picture of him holding a rifle and wearing the pistol. I showed him first an enlarged picture.

Mr. BALL. I will show you Commission Exhibit No. 135.

Mr. FRITZ. That is the picture.

Mr. BALL. That is the picture you showed him?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is a similar picture, that is a copy of the picture I showed him.

Mr. BALL. You had had your laboratory enlarge the picture that your men had brought back from Irving?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; he said that wasn't his picture, he said, "I have been through that whole deal with all people in the cameras," he said, "One has taken my picture and that is my face and put a different body on it." He said, I know all about photography, I worked with photography for a long time. That is a picture that someone else has made. I never saw that picture in my life."

I said, "Wait just a minute, and I will show you one you have seen probably," and I showed him the little one this one was made from and when I showed him the little one he said, "I never have seen that picture, either." He said, "That is a picture that has been reduced from the big one."

...

Mr. BALL. Who was present at that, do you remember, on 6 o'clock on Saturday evening, the 23nd? See page 138B.

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; I believe Mr. Bookhout, Inspector Kelley, myself, and officers.

Mr. McCLOY. This was an interrogation?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes.

Mr. BALL. Was that the time when he told you, someone superimposed the picture on his face?

Mr. FRITZ. Yes, sir; that is right.

--------- END EXTRACT OF WILL FRITZ TO WC ---------------------------

The problem I have here, is that I believe that Captain Will Fritz was on the margins of the JFK conspiracy, and played his role as smoothly as he could. He was already retirement age, and he was also a team player.

The fact that Fritz interviewed LHO for three days before sending him to the County Jail might have been illegal in itself. The fact that Jack Ruby was present at two of the public appearances of LHO also shows a breach in legal protocol.

Yet IMHO, the "bad guys" didn't create the BYP, even though LHO said they did. IMHO, it was LHO himself who made the BYP at Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, when he made his Alek J. Hidell fake ID. (LHO might have been fired for using company equipment for personal projects.)

IMHO, the reason that LHO made the BYP was to infiltrate the Communists -- and to impress the CIA so that they would give him a permanent job -- which they never did. Roscoe White helped LHO because Roscoe was also a zealous Anticommunist.

LHO probably rehearsed this claim for six months about the BYP being fake -- ever since the BYP were created -- because LHO deliberately created them for plausible deniability. Their complexity is the sort of thing that an amateur CIA wannabe would do in his spare time.

However -- just because the JFK Kill Team did not create the BYP does not excuse them -- they exploited the BYP for their own purposes, i.e. to make LHO look like a Communist, so that they could blame the Communists for the JFK assassination.

The JFK Kill Team got the help of Guy Banister and David Ferrie in New Orleans for this very same project. All the time LHO thought he was working on a Kill-Fidel Team. Boy was he wrong.

The JFK plot was centered in Dallas, however, and not in New Orleans. So Jim Garrison got that part wrong.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 16, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Michael Walton]

Paul,

Thanks for confirming where that "LH said photos are fakes" statement came from.

The one part I may agree with you here on is LH may have even made the photos himself. It's very possible and it's also possible that, like he was told to hand out the leaflets in NO, he may have been unwittingly doing this, thinking "OK, I'll hand out the leaflets and make photos of myself holding a Communist newspaper and weapons if it means helping ---- [my case officer] infilterate known Communists."

I can see that happening as he's being manipulated around up to 11/22.

So we then move on to the weekend of 11/22 where we now have LH saying he's nothing but a patsy, that they've arrested him because of his defection to Russia, that the photos are fake, and I'm guessing he's thinking all the while, "Holy s++t - THIS is why all of this is going down."

I can see that happening too. Then he tries to call his [probably fake] cut out in Raleigh Saturday night.

As for Fritz, I don't think he had anything to lie about with regard to what LH said about the photos being faked. I do think he was in on the elimination of LH on Sunday, though. He looks almost hilariously pained as he walks 8 feet ahead of LH as he's brought down the aisle to his doom. But it's obvious to me he broke the chain of protection allowing Ruby to shoot LH and I don't think that was an accident.

[Paul Trejo]

Paul,

Thanks for confirming where that "LH said photos are fakes" statement came from.

The one part I may agree with you here on is LH may have even made the photos himself. It's very possible and it's also possible that, like he was told to hand out the leaflets in NO, he may have been unwittingly doing this, thinking "OK, I'll hand out the leaflets and make photos of myself holding a Communist newspaper and weapons if it means helping ---- [my case officer] infilterate known Communists."

I can see that happening as he's being manipulated around up to 11/22.

So we then move on to the weekend of 11/22 where we now have LH saying he's nothing but a patsy, that they've arrested him because of his defection to Russia, that the photos are fake, and I'm guessing he's thinking all the while, "Holy s++t - THIS is why all of this is going down."

I can see that happening too. Then he tries to call his [probably fake] cut out in Raleigh Saturday night.

As for Fritz, I don't think he had anything to lie about with regard to what LH said about the photos being faked. I do think he was in on the elimination of LH on Sunday, though. He looks almost hilariously pained as he walks 8 feet ahead of LH as he's brought down the aisle to his doom. But it's obvious to me he broke the chain of protection allowing Ruby to shoot LH and I don't think that was an accident.

Michael,

I agree with everything you've said here. We don't need the original BYP to be part of the JFK Killers' conspiracy to make it fit snugly into the JFK Killers' conspiracy at a later date.

Here's my speculation -- since we're fairly confident that the body-double of the BYP belongs to Roscoe White, and that Roscoe White was a zealous Anticommunist -- then (based on Jeff Caufield's 2015 work) we have some justification to link Roscoe White with the radical rightist, General Walker there in Dallas.

Now, we know for a fact that Roscoe's wife Geneva had a separate, third BYP in her possession. This makes sense since Roscoe himself was part of the creation of the BYP.

Therefore -- to get to the point -- it seems clear to me that after LHO tried and failed to assassinate General Walker on April 10, 1963, that Roscoe White himself would take his BYP and show it to General Walker before April was over.

This is why Walker said that he had certain knowledge that LHO was his shooter "only a few days after" the shooting. Yes, this contradicts what Walker told the WC, but here it is with his signature:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

So, it's possible that General Walker saw this photo of the BYP in April 1963, and then decided at that point that he was going to use this very photograph to frame LHO for some crime -- just to get revenge for the Walker shooting.

That ties it up with a silver bow, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 17, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Paul Trejo]

This is all confirmed by Occam's Razor -- we don't need guess-work about who created the BYP. We have sworn testimony by Marina Oswald that she took the first BYP. We're on solid ground here.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 17, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Paul,

Thanks for confirming where that "LH said photos are fakes" statement came from.

The one part I may agree with you here on is LH may have even made the photos himself. It's very possible and it's also possible that, like he was told to hand out the leaflets in NO, he may have been unwittingly doing this, thinking "OK, I'll hand out the leaflets and make photos of myself holding a Communist newspaper and weapons if it means helping ---- [my case officer] infilterate known Communists."

I can see that happening as he's being manipulated around up to 11/22.

So we then move on to the weekend of 11/22 where we now have LH saying he's nothing but a patsy, that they've arrested him because of his defection to Russia, that the photos are fake, and I'm guessing he's thinking all the while, "Holy s++t - THIS is why all of this is going down."

I can see that happening too. Then he tries to call his [probably fake] cut out in Raleigh Saturday night.

As for Fritz, I don't think he had anything to lie about with regard to what LH said about the photos being faked. I do think he was in on the elimination of LH on Sunday, though. He looks almost hilariously pained as he walks 8 feet ahead of LH as he's brought down the aisle to his doom. But it's obvious to me he broke the chain of protection allowing Ruby to shoot LH and I don't think that was an accident.

Michael,

I agree with everything you've said here. We don't need the original BYP to be part of the JFK Killers' conspiracy to make it fit snugly into the JFK Killers' conspiracy at a later date.

Here's my speculation -- since we're fairly confident that the body-double of the BYP belongs to Roscoe White, and that Roscoe White was a zealous Anticommunist -- then (based on Jeff Caufield's 2015 work) we have some justification to link Roscoe White with the radical rightist, General Walker there in Dallas.

Now, we know for a fact that Roscoe's wife Geneva had a separate, third BYP in her possession. This makes sense since Roscoe himself was part of the creation of the BYP.

Therefore -- to get to the point -- it seems clear to me that after LHO tried and failed to assassinate General Walker on April 10, 1963, that Roscoe White himself would take his BYP and show it to General Walker before April was over.

This is why Walker said that he had certain knowledge that LHO was his shooter "only a few days after" the shooting. Yes, this contradicts what Walker told the WC, but here it is with his signature:

http://www.pet880.com/images/19750623_EAW_to_Frank_Church.pdf

So, it's possible that General Walker saw this photo of the BYP in April 1963, and then decided at that point that he was going to use this very photograph to frame LHO for some crime -- just to get revenge for the Walker shooting.

That ties it up with a silver bow, IMHO.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

Are you sure that Roscoe White had bump on his right wrist like that?

Do you have any evidence of that, other than the photograph of a Marine who kinda looked like Roscoe but had smaller larger ears and a wider chin than him?

-- Tommy

Edited October 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul,

Are you sure that Roscoe White had bump on his right wrist like that?

Do you have any evidence of that, other than the photograph of a Marine who kinda looked like Roscoe but had smaller ears and a wider chin than him?

-- Tommy

Tommy,

No, I have no further photographic evidence, myself. As for that photograph that Jack White shared, it is very blurry. It is hard to tell from that blurry photo the exact size of the ears and chin.

Yet, Jack White added some history -- and he did not publicize where he got this history. Jack White said that "Roscoe White broke his wrist, and it never healed properly."

He didn't say that like a guess -- but like a historical fact. He did not give the source of this fact.

This is why I have always asked -- I still want to know -- is it possible that Jack White was related by blood to Roscoe White? How else would he know about the unhealed break in Roscoe's right wrist?

As for further material evidence -- the fact that Geveva White-Dees had her own, unique copy of the BYP is the clincher, IMHO. That is impossible unless Roscoe White was more deeply involved in the BYP than anybody ever noticed until Jack White's breakthrough work.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 17, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Ma

Dear Paul,

Are you sure that Roscoe White had bump on his right wrist like that?

Do you have any evidence of that, other than the photograph of a Marine who kinda looked like Roscoe but had smaller ears and a wider chin than him?

-- Tommy

Tommy,

No, I have no further photographic evidence, myself. As for that photograph that Jack White shared, it is very blurry. It is hard to tell from that blurry photo the exact size of the ears and chin.

Yet, Jack White added some history -- and he did not publicize where he got this history. Jack White said that "Roscoe White broke his wrist, and it never healed properly."

He didn't say that like a guess -- but like a historical fact. He did not give the source of this fact.

This is why I have always asked -- I still want to know -- is it possible that Jack White was related by blood to Roscoe White? How else would he know about the unhealed break in Roscoe's right wrist?

As for further material evidence -- the fact that Geveva White-Dees had her own, unique copy of the BYP is the clincher, IMHO. That is impossible unless Roscoe White was more deeply involved in the BYP than anybody ever noticed until Jack White's breakthrough work.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul,

Regarding that "blurry" photograph, I remember I had one heck of a time convincing you that "Neck Scratcher" had dark-complected skin. I was so exhausted after that that I didn't even try to prove to you that NS had a camera strap around his neck.

At least Sandy Larsen has a sufficiently open mind (and sufficiently good eyesight) to see that the Marine's ears are significantly larger than Roscoe's, and, I think, that he has a wider chin than him, too.

Maybe Jack just assumed that it HAD to be Roscoe in the BYP, because, well ... because the Marine in the photo (that was developed and printed in May of 1959) did kinda resemble Roscoe and DID have a bump on his right wrist, and the photo MIGHT have been taken at Atsugi about a half-year earlier, and, even though there is no official documentation that LHO and Roscoe were at Atsugi at the same time (or that Roscoe was ever there, for that matter), well .... it just fit so WELL in Jack's assassination theory.

You might find the following interesting. Warning: It's from the (gasp) Dave Perry website. Go to the article and, to save time, press "F" and "ctrl" at the same time and type in the word "Atsugi."

http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html

-- Tommy

PS I would like to believe that it's Roscoe in the BYP's, but I guess I'm just a skeptic (bein' a dead-center Virgo male and all) and, well ... I need to be convinced and it just ain't happened yet. Please do let us know what you come up with.

Edited October 17, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul,

Regarding that "blurry" photograph, I remember I had one heck of a time convincing you that "Neck Scratcher" had dark-complected skin. I was so exhausted after that that I didn't even try to prove to you that NS had a camera strap around his neck.

At least Sandy Larsen has a sufficiently open mind (and sufficiently good eyesight) to see that the Marine's ears are significantly larger than Roscoe's, and, I think, that he has a wider chin than him, too.

Maybe Jack just assumed that it HAD to be Roscoe in the BYP, because, well ... because the Marine in the photo (that was developed and printed in May of 1959) did kinda resemble Roscoe and DID have a bump on his right wrist, and the photo MIGHT have been taken at Atsugi about a half-year earlier, and, even though there is no official documentation that LHO and Roscoe were at Atsugi at the same time (or that Roscoe was ever there, for that matter), well .... it just fit so WELL in Jack's assassination theory.

You might find the following interesting. Warning: It's from the (gasp) Dave Perry website. Go to the article and, to save time, press "F" and "ctrl" at the same time and type in the word "Atsugi."

http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html

-- Tommy

PS I would like to believe that it's Roscoe in the BYP's, but I guess I'm just a skeptic (bein' a dead-center Virgo male and all) and, well ... I need to be convinced and it just ain't happened yet. Please do let us know what you come up with.

Tommy,

Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm now convinced that David Morales was Neck Scratcher -- and I admit I put up a lot of resistance to the idea, and that my resistance didn't hold up. I don't remember if I conceded so directly back then.

Secondly, I appreciate the link to David B. Perry's 1991 (?) article on Roscoe White and Atsugi. Like so many witnesses who have suggested data to support a Walker-did-it CT, Ricky White was unsophisticated and not rigorous with the details.

I would also name Harry Dean in this context, as well as Ron Lewis. Minor exaggerations played some role in their accounts, partly to gain an audience, and partly because they took so much heat from the "canon" authorities.

I remember one "canon" great -- Harold Weisberg -- hammering on Ricky White. This professorial old man and this blue-collar young man -- it was an unequal battle -- until Harold Weisberg shot at Ricky (paraphrasing): "How can you dare to bring up evidence that was never in the Warren Report?" But that was a poor move, because Harold himself had been one of the severest critics of the Warren Report in history. So, Ricky just said, "Well, if the Warren Report is your authority, then there's nothing more I can say." Poor Weisberg saw his error at that moment.

Anyway, back to David Perry's article. What is most interesting is that he discovered that LHO and Roscoe White had indeed embarked for Japan on the USS Bexar on August 21, 1957, leaving San Diego and arriving at Yokosuka, Japan on September 12, 1957. Both LHO and Roscoe White were part of Marine Wing 1.

Now -- perhaps it was an exaggeration for Ricky White to say that they "served together," but that could be a matter of semantics.

As for the photograph of Roscoe White in the Marines that Ricky refers to, I find it difficult to doubt that a son would not recognize his own father -- given any disagreement about the identity of the people in the photograph.

Even given that Oswald and White had different units and different tracks -- that does not in any way prove that they never met. Yet that is what David Perry implies.

What he misses is this -- why do people make relationships? Is it only on the basis of proximity? Not at all. Also, unless Perry can trace every move made by every member of their two companies, then he cannot dismiss the possibility that the two men met at some point.

Why? What did they have in common? The answer (judging from Jeff Caufield's work) is POLITICS. They were both strident Anticommunists. That was one good reason to have a beer together.

Now, the clincher -- as I said -- wasn't that Roscoe White was in Japan at the same time that LHO was there, but rather the uncanny fact that Geneva White had a separate and a THIRD picture of the BYP in her possession.

That has to be explained somehow, and David Perry didn't address it in that link, Tommy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 18, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Paul,

Regarding that "blurry" photograph, I remember I had one heck of a time convincing you that "Neck Scratcher" had dark-complected skin. I was so exhausted after that that I didn't even try to prove to you that NS had a camera strap around his neck.

At least Sandy Larsen has a sufficiently open mind (and sufficiently good eyesight) to see that the Marine's ears are significantly larger than Roscoe's, and, I think, that he has a wider chin than him, too.

Maybe Jack just assumed that it HAD to be Roscoe in the BYP, because, well ... because the Marine in the photo (that was developed and printed in May of 1959) did kinda resemble Roscoe and DID have a bump on his right wrist, and the photo MIGHT have been taken at Atsugi about a half-year earlier, and, even though there is no official documentation that LHO and Roscoe were at Atsugi at the same time (or that Roscoe was ever there, for that matter), well .... it just fit so WELL in Jack's assassination theory.

You might find the following interesting. Warning: It's from the (gasp) Dave Perry website. Go to the article and, to save time, press "F" and "ctrl" at the same time and type in the word "Atsugi."

http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html

-- Tommy

PS I would like to believe that it's Roscoe in the BYP's, but I guess I'm just a skeptic (bein' a dead-center Virgo male and all) and, well ... I need to be convinced and it just ain't happened yet. Please do let us know what you come up with.

Tommy,

Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm now convinced that David Morales was Neck Scratcher -- and I admit I put up a lot of resistance to the idea, and that my resistance didn't hold up. I don't remember if I conceded so directly back then.

Secondly, I appreciate the link to David B. Perry's 1991 (?) article on Roscoe White and Atsugi. Like so many witnesses who have suggested data to support a Walker-did-it CT, Ricky White was unsophisticated and not rigorous with the details.

I would also name Harry Dean in this context, as well as Ron Lewis. Minor exaggerations played some role in their accounts, partly to gain an audience, and partly because they took so much heat from the "canon" authorities.

I remember one "canon" great -- Harold Weisberg -- hammering on Ricky White. This professorial old man and this blue-collar young man -- it was an unequal battle -- until Harold Weisberg shot at Ricky (paraphrasing): "How can you dare to bring up evidence that was never in the Warren Report?" But that was a poor move, because Harold himself had been one of the severest critics of the Warren Report in history. So, Ricky just said, "Well, if the Warren Report is your authority, then there's nothing more I can say." Poor Weisberg saw his error at that moment.

Anyway, back to David Perry's article. What is most interesting is that he discovered that LHO and Roscoe White had indeed embarked for Japan on the USS Bexar on August 21, 1957, leaving San Diego and arriving at Yokosuka, Japan on September 12, 1957. Both LHO and Roscoe White were part of Marine Wing 1.

Now -- perhaps it was an exaggeration for Ricky White to say that they "served together," but that could be a matter of semantics.

As for the photograph of Roscoe White in the Marines that Ricky refers to, I find it difficult to doubt that a son would not recognize his own father -- given any disagreement about the identity of the people in the photograph.

Even given that Oswald and White had different units and different tracks -- that does not in any way prove that they never met. Yet that is what David Perry implies.

What he misses is this -- why do people make relationships? Is it only on the basis of proximity? Not at all. Also, unless Perry can trace every move made by every member of their two units, then he cannot dismiss the possibility that the two men met at some point.

Why? What did they have in common? The answer (judging from Jeff Caufield's work) is POLITICS. They were both strident Anticommunists. That was one good reason to have a beer together.

Now -- the clincher, as I said -- wasn't that Roscoe White was in Japan at the same time that LHO was there, but rather the uncanny fact that Geneva White had a separate and a THIRD picture of the BYP in her possession.

That has to be explained somehow, and David Perry didn't address it in that link, Tommy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul.

I'm not talking about whether or not LHO and Roscoe ever met while they were in the Marines.

I'm not even talking about the photo of a group of Marines sitting on the ground with LHO (waiting, apparently, to board a ship), in which photo Roscoe White is allegedly in the background with the bill of his cap pulled down over his face.

What I am saying is that there's no proof that White and LHO were at Atsugi together. And, much more importantly, I'm questioning whether or not the Marine who happens to have a big bump on his right wrist and who happens to facially resemble Roscoe White in a photograph that was apparently taken at Atsugi really was Roscoe White.

-- Tommy

Edited October 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Paul Trejo]

Dear Paul.

I'm not talking about whether or not LHO and Roscoe ever met while they were in the Marines.

I'm not even talking about the photo of a group of Marines sitting on the ground with LHO (waiting, apparently, to board a ship), in which photo Roscoe White is allegedly in the background with the bill of his cap pulled down over his face.

What I am saying is that there's no proof that White and LHO were at Atsugi together. and, much more importantly, I'm questioning whether or not the Marine (in the other photograph) who happens to resemble Roscoe White (and who, perhaps conveniently, has a big bump on his right wrist) really was Roscoe White.

-- Tommy

Tommy,

If you really want proof, then my response is to keep digging. Don't leave it all up to Jack White. There has to be more, so the research beckons. But look at what the 20th century "canon" has done to Ricky White -- who was telling the truth. They made him look like an idiot.

We had a chance to dig into this Radical Right angle back in 1990 when Ricky White first offered it to us, but instead we chose to insult Ricky and keep chasing the CIA-did-it angle, along with Mark Lane, Harold Weisberg, Jim Garrison, Robert Groden and even A.J. Weberman. Most of the 20th century writers.

We missed a big opportunity back then. But history is an interesting thing -- it has infinite patience for us to catch up.

I myself am only one person. I don't pretend to compete with Jack White. But I do believe that the Radical Right angle is slowly picking up momentum again, with Jeff Caufield's recent, 900-page book, General Walker and the Murder of President Kennedy: the Extensive New Evidence of a Radical Right Conspiracy (2015).

Does it really matter whether LHO and Roscoe White were in exactly the same company together in Japan? How could Ricky White even be expected to know that much? We do know that they were in Japan in the Marines at the same time. So there is at least some chance that they met.

Why would Geneva White have a new pose of the BYP otherwise? I just want that connection.

Now, back to your question about the photograph -- there is one way that I can think of to verify that. An unhealed broken right wrist is extremely rare. We only need to find one other photograph of Roscoe White's unhealed broken right wrist, and we have 95% certainty right there, IMHO

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Edited October 18, 2016 by Paul Trejo

[Thomas Graves]

Dear Paul,

Regarding that "blurry" photograph, I remember I had one heck of a time convincing you that "Neck Scratcher" had dark-complected skin. I was so exhausted after that that I didn't even try to prove to you that NS had a camera strap around his neck.

At least Sandy Larsen has a sufficiently open mind (and sufficiently good eyesight) to see that the Marine's ears are significantly larger than Roscoe's, and, I think, that he has a wider chin than him, too.

Maybe Jack just assumed that it HAD to be Roscoe in the BYP, because, well ... because the Marine in the photo (that was developed and printed in May of 1959) did kinda resemble Roscoe and DID have a bump on his right wrist, and the photo MIGHT have been taken at Atsugi about a half-year earlier, and, even though there is no official documentation that LHO and Roscoe were at Atsugi at the same time (or that Roscoe was ever there, for that matter), well .... it just fit so WELL in Jack's assassination theory.

You might find the following interesting. Warning: It's from the (gasp) Dave Perry website. Go to the article and, to save time, press "F" and "ctrl" at the same time and type in the word "Atsugi."

http://dperry1943.com/roscoew.html

-- Tommy

PS I would like to believe that it's Roscoe in the BYP's, but I guess I'm just a skeptic (bein' a dead-center Virgo male and all) and, well ... I need to be convinced and it just ain't happened yet. Please do let us know what you come up with.

Tommy,

Firstly, I'd like to say that I'm now convinced that David Morales was Neck Scratcher -- and I admit I put up a lot of resistance to the idea, and that my resistance didn't hold up. I don't remember if I conceded so directly back then.

Secondly, I appreciate the link to David B. Perry's 1991 (?) article on Roscoe White and Atsugi. Like so many witnesses who have suggested data to support a Walker-did-it CT, Ricky White was unsophisticated and not rigorous with the details.

I would also name Harry Dean in this context, as well as Ron Lewis. Minor exaggerations played some role in their accounts, partly to gain an audience, and partly because they took so much heat from the "canon" authorities.

I remember one "canon" great -- Harold Weisberg -- hammering on Ricky White. This professorial old man and this blue-collar young man -- it was an unequal battle -- until Harold Weisberg shot at Ricky (paraphrasing): "How can you dare to bring up evidence that was never in the Warren Report?" But that was a poor move, because Harold himself had been one of the severest critics of the Warren Report in history. So, Ricky just said, "Well, if the Warren Report is your authority, then there's nothing more I can say." Poor Weisberg saw his error at that moment.

Anyway, back to David Perry's article. What is most interesting is that he discovered that LHO and Roscoe White had indeed embarked for Japan on the USS Bexar on August 21, 1957, leaving San Diego and arriving at Yokosuka, Japan on September 12, 1957. Both LHO and Roscoe White were part of Marine Wing 1.

Now -- perhaps it was an exaggeration for Ricky White to say that they "served together," but that could be a matter of semantics.

As for the photograph of Roscoe White in the Marines that Ricky refers to, I find it difficult to doubt that a son would not recognize his own father -- given any disagreement about the identity of the people in the photograph.

Even given that Oswald and White had different units and different tracks -- that does not in any way prove that they never met. Yet that is what David Perry implies.

What he misses is this -- why do people make relationships? Is it only on the basis of proximity? Not at all. Also, unless Perry can trace every move made by every member of their two units, then he cannot dismiss the possibility that the two men met at some point.

Why? What did they have in common? The answer (judging from Jeff Caufield's work) is POLITICS. They were both strident Anticommunists. That was one good reason to have a beer together.

Now -- the clincher, as I said -- wasn't that Roscoe White was in Japan at the same time that LHO was there, but rather the uncanny fact that Geneva White had a separate and a THIRD picture of the BYP in her possession.

That has to be explained somehow, and David Perry didn't address it in that link, Tommy.

Regards,

--Paul Trejo

Dear Paul.

I'm not talking about whether or not LHO and Roscoe ever met while they were in the Marines.

I'm not even talking about the photo of a group of Marines sitting on the ground with LHO (waiting, apparently, to board a ship), in which photo Roscoe White is allegedly in the background with the bill of his cap pulled down over his face.

What I am saying is that there's no proof that White and LHO were at Atsugi, Taiwan, or Cubi Point together. And, much more importantly, I'm questioning whether or not the Marine who happens to have a big bump on his right wrist and who happens to facially resemble Roscoe White in a photograph that was apparently taken at Atsugi, Taiwan, or Cubi Point really was Roscoe White.

-- Tommy

edited and augmented

https://books.google.com/books?id=64ji-mF2oaAC&pg=PA32&dq=%22cubi+point%22+oswald&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjx1P7tyOPPAhUn04MKHbc3CykQ6AEILjAD#v=onepage&q=%22cubi%20point%22%20oswald&f=false

"Cop Killed JFK -- On Orders From CIA

Globe August 28, 1990"

Edited October 18, 2016 by Thomas Graves