Did Ruby talk about Oswald at Ray McKeown's before the assassination?

[Jim Hargrove]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

In 1977, the House Select Committee on Assassination’s Chief Counsel Richard Sprague and his deputy Robert K. Tanenbaum were both compelled to resign, soon replaced by G. Robert Blakey. From their early questioning of witnesses and their later public statements, it’s clear that both Sprague and Tanenbaum believed that Amercian Intelligence organizations were involved in the assassination of JFK. Sprague’s replacement, G. Robert Blakey, seemed to indicate that he believed the Mob did it.

Most researchers today, I believe, would agree with the statement that, at the very least, the fingerprints of American Intel are all over this case. So what about the Mob?

There is no question that the CIA made use of the Mob in the 1960s and early 1970s. The most famous of these misadventures probably involved attempts to assassinate Fidel Castro, which were almost comically unsuccessful (enough so to make some people wonder how serious they were).

Ever since Blakey’s HSCA diverted attention from American Intel to the Mob, now half a century ago, the true nature of this crime has been hidden, at least in my opinion. Recently here, a researcher began looking at Jack Ruby’s possible ties to organized crime figures, which I think has been largely a cover story to hide the fact that he was probably some sort of CIA asset. (Though, I suppose, in Jack’s line of work it’s pretty easy to rub elbows with some unsavory characters.) But I believe the whole Mob-did-it thing is just an excuse. I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

[Chris Newton]

Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

No.

I think there was a cabal, most likely Dulles, Angleton some members of JCS.

I think the Mob had a role in pre-planning and cleanup partnered with their friendly rogue CIA elements from Mongoose/JMWAVE.

Sandy: I assume Harvey/Lee folks theory threatened by "too much mafia" because this is an element that doesn't fit in with their long term CIA CI/OP Oswald Double Program.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Chris Newton

[Jim Hargrove]

Chris: Ah, we’re not nearly as far apart as I thought. John and I think the “Oswald Project” didn’t become entangled in the plans to assassinate JFK until the late spring and summer of 1963, when Russian-speaking “Lee HARVEY Oswald” began making plans to pass out Fair Play for Cuba literature in front of Clay Shaw’s Trade Mart in New Orleans.

Some researchers, among them Anthony Summers in his 2002 book The Kennedy Conspiracy, believe that released documents show how a CIA effort led by David Atlee Phillips was conducted to infiltrate and discredit the FPCC. I believe, and I think John A. agrees, that the FPCC was largely a creation of the CIA and was designed more to discredit “Lee HARVEY Oswald” than anything else, to make him appear to be an agent of Fidel Castro. Phillips’ role here should be emphasized.

Many on this forum will probably agree that the immediate purpose of the Kennedy assassination and the framing of “Oswald” was to provoke an invasion of Cuba. It probably would have worked if LBJ hadn’t ordered everyone to bury everything and blame a couple of Lone Nuts for the death of JFK AND “Oswald.”

I am angry that the Mob has been used as a scapegoat in this sordid case for more than fifty years. Anyone, including Mobsters, obviously could have played a subordinate role, but I suspect angry Cubans could be convinced to shoot at a sitting president in broad daylight much more easily than professional hitmen just in it for the money. I agree wholeheartedly about Dulles and Angleton, and I’ll add Phillips to the short list. I’m not convinced about the evidence pointing to JCS members, but it sure seems possible some were in on it.

[Sandy Larsen]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

[Thomas Graves]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

Sandy,

And if you want to keep a really open mind, you should consider the "remote" possibility that he had no CIA ties, right? Or have you already made your mind up on that? (lol)

-- Tommy

Edited September 26, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Sandy Larsen]

Chris: Ah, we’re not nearly as far apart as I thought.

That's what I suspected.

Maybe I hang around the more savvy CT joints, Jim, because I haven't detected many people who think the Mob did it. I can't think of any, actually. But then, I don't waste my time looking at reviews of books that don't point their fingers at the the CIA. Because to me it just seems too obvious that it was a CIA job. Probably on behalf of the generals and/or deep state.

[Sandy Larsen]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

Sandy,

And if you want to keep a really open mind, you should consider the "remote" possibility that he had no CIA ties, right? Or have you already made your mind up on that? (lol)

-- Tommy

That's a good question Tommy. A few months ago I would have said that Ruby probably had Mafia ties, and those ties were working for the CIA. So the CIA ordered the Mafia to kill Oswald, and the Mafia ordered Ruby to do it.

Now I'm more inclined to think that Ruy had direct ties to the CIA. Because it appears that he worked with Oswald, with Nixon at one time, and had a security clearance at least once.

If Ruby had Mafia connections, I now think that that was part of his cover. But actually I think he was more independent than that.

[Thomas Graves]

I don't understand the Mafia vs. CIA argument that just occurred here. I thought it was well established that the CIA had Mafia types doing work for them. Doesn't everybody agree with that?

(Sorry to keep the OT going. I just want to know if the above isn't true. Does Chris think the Mafia "did it?" Without the CIA's planning?)

I believe Ruby was a mechanic who helped create the events of 11/22/63 in Dallas, including the framing of “Lee Harvey Oswald,” and that he took his directions from the CIA’s David Atlee Phillips via the two men’s mutual friend (and Dallas radio station co-founder) Gordon McLendon.

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

Sandy,

And if you want to keep a really open mind, you should consider the "remote" possibility that he had no CIA ties, right? Or have you already made your mind up on that? (lol)

-- Tommy

That's a good question Tommy. A few months ago I would have said that Ruby probably had Mafia ties, and those ties were working for the CIA. So the CIA ordered the Mafia to kill Oswald, and the Mafia ordered Ruby to do it.

Now I'm more inclined to think that Ruy had direct ties to the CIA. Because it appears that he worked with Oswald, with Nixon at one time, and had a security clearance at least once.

If Ruby had Mafia connections, I now think that that was part of his cover. But actually I think he was more independent than that.

Sandy,

Have you considered the possibility that Nixon either lied to someone in the FBI about Ruby's working for him, or, more likely, that Nixon asked his buddy J. Edgar Hoover (maybe even at my hometown's now non-existent Hotel Del Charro!) to arrange for Ruby's not having to appear before the HUAC as a favor to Sam "Momo" Giancana, and that Ruby never actually did work for Nixon?

-- Tommy

[Chris Newton]

Chris: Ah, we’re not nearly as far apart as I thought. John and I think the “Oswald Project” didn’t become entangled in the plans to assassinate JFK until the late spring and summer of 1963, when Russian-speaking “Lee HARVEY Oswald” began making plans to pass out Fair Play for Cuba literature in front of Clay Shaw’s Trade Mart in New Orleans.

No we are not that far apart. I just weigh the possibility that LHO was doubled as one of CIA's long term ops at a far less probability. I won't deny it's a possibility. I find it most probable that, (during the Angleton era), defectors that had a background such as LHO were in fact either CIA assets or outright agents.

Were people impersonating LHO to build a "legend" pre Nov. 22? Certainly.

[Sandy Larsen]

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

Sandy,

And if you want to keep a really open mind, you should consider the "remote" possibility that he had no CIA ties, right? Or have you already made your mind up on that? (lol)

-- Tommy

That's a good question Tommy. A few months ago I would have said that Ruby probably had Mafia ties, and those ties were working for the CIA. So the CIA ordered the Mafia to kill Oswald, and the Mafia ordered Ruby to do it.

Now I'm more inclined to think that Ruy had direct ties to the CIA. Because it appears that he worked with Oswald, with Nixon at one time, and had a security clearance at least once.

If Ruby had Mafia connections, I now think that that was part of his cover. But actually I think he was more independent than that.

Sandy,

Have you considered the possibility that Nixon either lied to someone in the FBI about Ruby's working for him, or, more likely, that Nixon asked his buddy J. Edgar Hoover (maybe even at my hometown's now non-existent Hotel Del Charro!) to arrange for Ruby's not having to appear before the HUAC as a favor to Sam "Momo" Giancana, and that Ruby never actually did work for Nixon?

-- Tommy

Tommy,

I generally don't go looking for alternative explanations when a simple one seems to fit well. Consider this possibility:

Nixon, being the lover of dirty tricks that he was, got involved in McCarthyite activities as a congressman. Somehow he meets Ruby and hires him to assist in those activities.

Later, as vice president, Nixon was put in charge of the CIA's involvement in anti-Castro activities. (Yay... more dirty tricks!) Nixon again hires Ruby. Or rather, has the CIA hire him to assist in those activities.

This is how Ruby and Oswald know one another.

That fits together rather neatly, don't you think. Unless a conflict arises, I see no reason to consider more complicated scenarios.

That said, however, I am open to other simple possibilities. I don't know anything about Momo Giacana. Do you have any simple scenarios in mind?

[Thomas Graves]

I've always thought that Ruby had Mafia ties AND did work for the CIA. But I'll try to keep an open mind and pay more attention. Maybe he doesn't have Mafia ties after all.

Sandy,

And if you want to keep a really open mind, you should consider the "remote" possibility that he had no CIA ties, right? Or have you already made your mind up on that? (lol)

-- Tommy

That's a good question Tommy. A few months ago I would have said that Ruby probably had Mafia ties, and those ties were working for the CIA. So the CIA ordered the Mafia to kill Oswald, and the Mafia ordered Ruby to do it.

Now I'm more inclined to think that Ruy had direct ties to the CIA. Because it appears that he worked with Oswald, with Nixon at one time, and had a security clearance at least once.

If Ruby had Mafia connections, I now think that that was part of his cover. But actually I think he was more independent than that.

Sandy,

Have you considered the possibility that Nixon either lied to someone in the FBI about Ruby's working for him, or, more likely, that Nixon asked his buddy J. Edgar Hoover (maybe even at my hometown's now non-existent Hotel Del Charro!) to arrange for Ruby's not having to appear before the HUAC as a favor to Sam "Momo" Giancana, and that Ruby never actually did work for Nixon?

-- Tommy

Tommy,

I generally don't go looking for alternative explanations when a simple one seems to fit well. Consider this possibility:

Nixon, being the lover of dirty tricks that he was, got involved in McCarthyite activities as a congressman. Somehow he meets Ruby and hires him to assist in those activities.

Later, as vice president, Nixon was put in charge of the CIA's involvement in anti-Castro activities. (Yay... more dirty tricks!) Nixon again hires Ruby. Or rather, has the CIA hire him to assist in those activities.

This is how Ruby and Oswald know one another.

That fits together rather neatly, don't you think. Unless a conflict arises, I see no reason to consider more complicated scenarios.

That said, however, I am open to other simple possibilities. I don't know anything about Momo Giacana. Do you have any simple scenarios in mind?

Sandy,

"[The Chicago Syndicate's Sam] Giancana's half-bother Chuck and nephew Sam claimed in their 1992 book Double Cross that the Mafia don had a long, warm, and mutually rewarding relationship with Nixon that dated back to the 1940s. In those times, Giancana was helping Chicago Syndicate boss Anthony Accardo consolidate the city's rackets and gambling operations, and Nixon was a freshman congressman from California. In recounting for his relatives a big favor the congressman did for Giancana back then, the gangster established a direct link between Nixon and a Chicago hoodlum who later moved to Texas and went on to shoot Lee Harvey Oswald: 'Nixon's done me some favors, all right, got us some highway contracts, worked with the unions and overseas. And we've helped him and his CIA buddies out, too. xxxx, he even helped my guy in Texas, (Jack) Ruby, get out of testifying in front of Congress back in forty-seven … By sayin' Ruby worked for him.'"

http://www.crimemagazine.com/richard-nixons-greatest-cover-his-ties-assassination-president-kennedy

Sandy, please remember that back in 1947 Ruby was trying to help the Chicago Syndicate move into Dallas, and probably didn't want to testify to no stinkin' Congress.

-- Tommy

Edited September 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

Tommy,

The only "quibble" I have with the above is really the same "quibble" I would raise with the '47 note itself. That somehow Ruby, after being discharged in 1946, came to be either "Ginacana's or Nixon's man" in the span of a few months.

That's some upward social mobility.

[Thomas Graves]

Tommy,

The only "quibble" I have with the above is really the same "quibble" I would raise with the '47 note itself. That somehow Ruby, after being discharged in 1946, came to be either "Ginacana's or Nixon's man" in the span of a few months.

That's some upward social mobility.

Chris,

We know that Ruby was born and raised in Chicago, and started out being a runner / errand boy for Al Capone. One thing leads to another and he becomes an official of the mobbed-up Junk Handler's Union, murders someone in the Junk Handler's Union office, and eventually moves to Dallas in '47 to help the Chicago Outfit "move in" there. It seems he was already pretty well connected to the Chicago Syndicate at that time. So Nixon does The Syndicate a little favor by asking his buddy, JEH, to make it so's Ruby don't have to do no testifyin' before no stinkin' Congressional Committee whiles Ruby's so busy down there in Big D in '47.

You heard of Paul "Needle Nose" Labriola, Paul Roland Jones, etc?

https://books.google.com/books?id=7U8PAAAAQBAJ&pg=PT319&lpg=PT319&dq=ruby+%22paul+needle+nose+labriola%22+%22paul+roland+jones%22&source=bl&ots=wh5ON5AdHZ&sig=PLb5HfSdxZ-xpelo-v4Si1ExzYA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwijhuHnpq7PAhVkVWMKHcn4Ay8Q6AEIIjAB#v=onepage&q=ruby%20%22paul%20needle%20nose%20labriola%22%20%22paul%20roland%20jones%22&f=false

http://www.investorvillage.com/smbd.asp?mb=4245&mn=534611&pt=msg&mid=9041354

-- Tommy

Edited September 27, 2016 by Thomas Graves

[Chris Newton]

One thing leads to another and he becomes an official of the mobbed-up Junk Handler's Union, murders someone in the Junk Handler's Union office, moves to California where he associates with the mob there, and eventually moves to Dallas in '47 to help the Chicago Outfit "move in" there.

The murder was never pinned on him although he was considered one of two suspects. I suppose if he were responsible then that could have gotten him "made".

From what I understand the Campisi's were the underworld bosses of Dallas. They would have frowned on Ruby moving in as a "Giancana guy", wouldn't they?

[Chris Newton]

Tommy,

I think Jack "Sparky" Rubenstein was Mickey Cohen's guy in Dallas. That may be partially born out by his interest in Mickey Cohen's girl, Candy Barr. In 1963 Mickey was just starting his 2nd year at Alcatraz and Candy had just gotten out on parole.

Mickey had previously worked for Capone in Chicago and in the 50's-60's was affiliated with Bugsy Siegal in LA and Las Vegas.

Not to sound racist but the reality was that Jack wasn't part of the Italian/Sicilian gang.

Just my opinion.