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Jim Marr's comments on the James Files story: Has any of it been debunked?


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12 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

And in the end, after he sold the Files story rights (which might an indication of what was going on right there) Files first promoter (West's partner Bob Vernon) came public with a number of points which undermined Files.  I had some lengthy emails with him at that point in time, probably on an earlier PC at this point.  It was kind of a dump of how he himself had become fed up the the Files story that he had touted for several years.

Wim certainly got sandbagged by Bob Vernon with this foolish "confession".  I saw the video before I ever got on any forum and it was a total joke.  Back in the day Wim used to get on me all the time for disbelieving Files without buying HIS  (Wim Dankbar ) (sp?)'s video.  

Ya, the powers that be hired an 18 year old kid who would later confess. Makes sense to me. :) 

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21 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Sandy, as your quote of Jim relates, Tosh was telling at least parts of his story, before Joe West ever got involved with the Files story and before anything from Files got out to the public. Nothing in Tosh's earliest information really would have anything to do with Files story other than the issue of flying in someone he recognized as Roselli from Florida (how he would have recognized Roselli is a question that comes to mind). Without getting wrapped up in why Roselli would have flown into Dallas with an abort team in order to tell Nicholetti that he was backing out because an abort team was there (my mind sort of blows up at that point) I'll just answer your question by saying that no, even after several dialogs with Tosh, a full review of all the FBI documents and arrest records I could get on him and searches of the references he provided, I simply was not convinced that of any association between he and military intelligence or by the various iterations of his story about Dallas. 

Larry,

Thanks for your opinion on Tosh.

I must say that I was really surprised by it considering how widely accepted Tosh's statements seem to be. In a casual search I even saw him quoted by a Huffington Post article written about Gary Webb and alleged drug running to the United States used to support CIA missions, the Nicaraguan Contras in particular. I was also surprised because your assessment of Tosh seems to the polar opposite of Jim Marrs's. Out of fairness to Tosh, here is a link to what Marrs said about him which was quite positive. (Note that Marrs's comments are quite old, dated 2004.) Readers can decide for themselves what to believe.

I generally give people the benefit of the doubt until evidence against them is produced.

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19 hours ago, Sandy Larsen said:

Allan Eaglesham's research and presentation are indeed a serious blow to the James Files confession. At the very least it indicates that Files was aware of the marks on the .222 caliber shell beforehand and that he fabricated the story of biting down on it, IMO. Of course this casts doubt on the rest of his story.

For anyone reading this who wants to know more, the presentation is given here and is titled The Tell-Tale Dash: James Files and the Dented Cartridge Case. It pretty much proves that the .222 caliber shell that Files allegedly bit down on was not manufactured till 1971 or later.

Thanks to Jim DiEugenio for the heads-up on this.

 

BTW Jim Marrs did note Allan Eaglesham's proof in his latest (2013) edition of Crossfire. IMO a copy of the proof should be posted on a popular JFK website, like ctka.com.

 

 

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Sandy, on the benefit of doubt point, I think that is fine for personal relationships but when you have someone offering themselves as a primary witness in the assassination of the President I think an actual order of proof or at least independent corroboration is required.  I very much doubt that Jim had the FBI files and documents on Tosh when he wrote and I'm not even certain he would have had access to the sources which demonstrate how significantly Tosh's story has evolved over time. I think I can also claim to have done more research on the Contra affair and associated drug activities than Jim has done; I don't know if you have read my book Shadow Warfare or not but I had to dig though a lot of "claims" to get to what appears to me to be the root of the story there.  I actually suspect Tosh did some flights down there but you have to remember that one of the big issues there was that the CIA was pulled out of it early on, leading to a lot of independent folks getting involved under the North regime. And as one of the big drug guys feeding the channel out of Miami stated in court - "everybody says they are CIA".  Which worked quite well for a bit with some customs points as they to assumed certain flights were CIA -  until the roof fell in on them and it became clear they were being had.

One of the very interesting patterns in Tosh's visibility is that whenever he got busted for something - like renting an airplane and leaving it parked on a dirt road somewhere or kiting checks, is that after a bit of time in jail he would immediately ask for the FBI, begin making claims and trying to set himself up as a source.  Not an uncommon tactic for fringe operators but very clear if you really dig into the documents. Its also very hard to find any names or activities that  he puts forth that was not generally known in Miami or in the papers there. I did a bit more than just go the document route but that's private and I'm not going into it here.

Personally I think the JFK research community has been a bit soft on a lot of sources that have offered themselves up and I will be speaking to that at the Lancer conference. Going along with that, as I mentioned elsewhere, what was once mysterious and even plausible a decade ago or earlier always needs to be reexamined with the best available material.  

But hey, you can dig into it just as I did, and much more quickly than I would given the resources available today.


 

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On 11/7/2016 at 1:36 PM, James DiEugenio said:

You lucky dog Larry.  You made millions.

As per Joe West, if you are old enough to recall, Joe was one of the prime motivators behind the whole Roscoe White fiasco.  He then was the guy who discovered James Files.  Coincidence?

James,

I didn't know about Joe West before, but after a little searching I now see that it was he who promoted Ricky White's story about his dad being a grassy knoll shooter, and also Tippit's killer.

This is now a widely disbelieved story, right? I have to ask because I have seen a lot of posts regarding Roscoe White on the forum suggesting that he was part of the conspiracy. And I don't know if that is only because he had that unique backyard photo, or if it's also because of what Ricky said.

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On 11/7/2016 at 4:19 PM, James DiEugenio said:

Read this article about Roscoe White and you will see why I have problems with anything the late Joe West discovered.

http://www.texasmonthly.com/politics/i-was-mandarin/

The Roscoe White case was a first rate fiasco.

Different CTers discount the stories of alleged players for different reasons. Since I believe the CIA planned the assassination, I don't believe stories of non-CIA types making the plans. For example, in the news story Jim links to here, Geneva says that she heard Roscoe and Ruby planning the hit. I don't believe it  for the simple reason I just gave.

BTW, I do believe it is possible -- or even likely -- that the CIA would use Mafia hit men to take the shots. And that those hit  men would participate in the planning of the shooting itself. But I see no reason why people like Ruby and Roscoe would be informed that they were even taking part in an assassination, unless it was  necessary for them to know.

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On 11/7/2016 at 4:47 PM, Larry Hancock said:

And in the end, after he sold the Files story rights (which might an indication of what was going on right there) Files first promoter (West's partner Bob Vernon) came public with a number of points which undermined Files.  I had some lengthy emails with him at that point in time, probably on an earlier PC at this point.  It was kind of a dump of how he himself had become fed up the the Files story that he had touted for several years.

Wim say that Vernon tried to discredit Files because Wim wouldn't give him more money. (I don't know the reason for it, but Vernon claims Wim owes him another $100,000.) In response, Wim asks Vernon why he would pay another $100k if Vernon is correct in his discrediting of Files.

 

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23 hours ago, Larry Hancock said:

Sandy, I had mentioned Bob Vernon later, the first "promoter" of Files; you might find the following of interest - it elaborates on some of the issues raised by Allan:

http://citizensforjustice.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=158

 

I personally believe that this document impeaches Vernon more than it impeaches either Wim or Files.

Because Vernon wants another $100,000 from Wim for his share of the story he sold Wim. (There is a video of Vernon on Wim's website begging for the $100,000 and demanding it.) And yet he wants us to believe that before he sold his share, he was telling Wim about all the Files inconsistencies. Which would serve only to devalue the story.

Vernon want's his cake and to eat it too.

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Sandy:

The Roscoe White story was discredited within weeks of the press conference which attracted literally scores of media people to Dallas.

As you can see from that story I linked to, very little of the tale was actually true.  And some of the more sensational aspects were clearly forged, liked the diary and hit list.

So yes it is a widely disbelieved story.  And the presence of Joe West with Files after that one made me apprehensive to begin with.

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45 minutes ago, James DiEugenio said:

Sandy:

The Roscoe White story was discredited within weeks of the press conference which attracted literally scores of media people to Dallas.

As you can see from that story I linked to, very little of the tale was actually true.  And some of the more sensational aspects were clearly forged, liked the diary and hit list.

So yes it is a widely disbelieved story.  And the presence of Joe West with Files after that one made me apprehensive to begin with.


Thanks for your response Jim.

Based on what I've read today, I absolutely agree with your assessment of Joe West being one of the worst things to happen to JFK research.

 

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I've been reading a lot of what Tosh Plumlee has written, and FWIW I think he sounds quite credible.

It seems to me that there would be no way of finding any documentation on a freelance intelligence contractor. So I don't know how one would go about verifying the stories of someone like Tosh.

If anyone would like to convince me that Tosh is a fraud, I'd be happy to look at their evidence.

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Sandy, surely you are not just looking at only what Tosh himself says are you?  That would be like looking at only what James Files says.  In any event, you asked for opinions and you got mine - good luck with where Tosh's story takes you.  I suggest you begin trying to develop the premise that JFK and RFK knew the full details of the attack in Dallas in advance and that Jack especially brought Jackie with him given that knowledge, after the recent loss of her baby.  And that even when informed that the the plotters had changed their plans and the attack would occur - but no one knew where - Jack, the Secret Service and all those in charge just decided to continue on with the motorcade.  That should lead in some interesting directions - and Tosh knows this because he was briefed after the fact with all the details - by a senior CIA officer who traveled to Miami just to read him in to the whole thing.  If you find Tosh credible it seems to me you commit to taking taking his full, final story as your working premise.

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1 hour ago, Larry Hancock said:

Sandy, surely you are not just looking at only what Tosh himself says are you? 

As I said in my last post, I'm open to seeing anything that indicates Tosh is a fraud. So far I haven't seen anything like that.

That would be like looking at only what James Files says.

In any event, you asked for opinions and you got mine ....

Yes, I did ask you what your opinion was. And you gave it, for which I am thankful. Because of your reply I am being wary of what Tosh has said, and I have asked for evidence indicating that he is a fraud.

.... - good luck with where Tosh's story takes you.  I suggest you begin trying to develop the premise that JFK and RFK knew the full details of the attack in Dallas in advance and that Jack especially brought Jackie with him given that knowledge, after the recent loss of her baby.

I didn't see that among the stuff I found that Tosh wrote. Can you point me to it? I did find a comment about the attack originally being planned at the Adolphus hotel, but it didn't mention anything about JFK and RFK knowing the details in advance.

  And that even when informed that the the plotters had changed their plans and the attack would occur - but no one knew where - Jack, the Secret Service and all those in charge just decided to continue on with the motorcade.  That should lead in some interesting directions - and Tosh knows this because he was briefed after the fact with all the details - by a senior CIA officer who traveled to Miami just to read him in to the whole thing.  If you find Tosh credible it seems to me you commit to taking taking his full, final story as your working premise.

Well what would you have me do, Larry? Take your word for it?

I don't have the time, energy, or money to become a Tosh Plumlee expert. Which is why I am inviting people to show me some evidence.

 

 

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Sandy, if you have not been through several decades of Tosh's statements yet then you just have not seen the full story.  I mentioned early on how it had morphed and become more complex including the fact that he had been briefed by a senior CIA officer after the assassination which is why he now has be big picture. Which includes the President being advised that intelligence had lost contact with their informants and no longer had a handle on the attack - yet they allowed him to go forward in Dallas and he himself chose to do so. And in doing so they appear to have had no contact with their abort team, they failed no additional security assets on the route and they left Tosh and his buddy on their own just to wonder around the Plaza apparently looking for somebody with a gun?  Which would be quite inconsistent with the security response to the much more limited threats that surfaced in Chicago and Miami.

Certainly you don't need to take my word for it but on the other hand I have no special interest (or time for)  in debunking Tosh any more than Judyth or Files or any other source I have found credible - nor in assembling links and sources to do so. Don't mean to sound harsh but I have other research and writing to pursue. I don't mind being regarded as a contrarian on any of those folks, I reach my own conclusions. I was being perfectly serious though, if you accept Tosh you need to do a lot more research, you need to go through all the documents on him, record all his stories to the FBI, to the media, to Jim, etc and then use that as the context for your research.  Same as anyone accepting Files, Judyth or Roscoe White would need to do.  If you take them as credible you need to take all their story line seriously and adjust  your beliefs and scenario to them. 

 

 

 

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