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Croft ladies


Robin Unger
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Howdy to you & the rest of your neighbors from 'down under', Robin:

Your magnificent photo display of the Croft ladies triggered a memory of discussions I remember from the original Lancer Forum that  I'd like to share with the Education Forum readers & you (hoping all find it interesting):

Part of the discussion concerned the woman wearing the blue dress & the fellow dressed in brown sitting next to her at the corner of the retaining wall behind the Croft ladies standing & waving on the sidewalk.

Someone noticed that the woman & her companion's legs only come down to a point above the shrubs & commented that when they sat at that same spot while visiting Dealey Plaza, the visitor's legs collided with the shrubs & almost reached the ground. The commenter suggested the woman & her companion were too small, almost dwarf-like in size for their feet to hang above the wall shrubs, as seen in the Croft photo.

As I recall, the late Gary Mack sent word through messenger (sock puppet?) that he had sat there at the spot on the retaining wall & his legs only came down to a position as seen by the couple in the Croft photo. This was followed by a lot of disagreement by people who had visited that spot in Dealey Plaza.

Being close to Dealey Plaza at the time, my curiosity got the best of me &, Croft photo in hand, I sat at the same spot the Croft wall woman & her companion sat. My feet immediately collided with the top of the shrubs. When I worked my feet behind the shrubs, they almost touched the ground. I'm 5' 9". The shrubs were cut identical to the height seen in the Croft photo.

In another Lancer Forum discussion, someone was claiming the Croft ladies were actually CIA sponsored anti-Castro revolutionary men dressed in drag & compared photos of anti-Castro Cuban fighters to each woman. Several photos were posted for comparison purposes. I don't remember if these men were supposedly Alpha 66, ZR-RIFLE or some other CIA sponsored Anti-Castro fighters.

I recall another Lancer contributor believed he spotted a shooter with pistol in hand hiding between Croft sidewalk woman #3 and #4.

Some Lancer Forum posters believed they saw a bullet hole in the parade car's windshield directly in front of driver William Greer while others believed they saw Greer holding a chrome pistol in his hand.

Since the online hacking & destruction of the original Lancer Forum, I've often wondered which controversial topic was the one that was the straw that 'broke the camel's back' & motivated some sick mind(s) with the knowledge & expertise to destroy undoubtedly the most popular JFK interactive Forum online at the time. The Croft ladies discussions might have been the topic that stuck the wrong nerve in someone's mind?

The late photo analyst Jack White posted a lot of his analysis of the Croft photo either here at the Ed Forum or at Deep Politics Forum. Jack believed the Croft photo was extensively altered. Some of Jack's observations included the photo depicts JFK's parade car moving uphill at a point on Elm Street that is a steep, downhill grade & the white retaining wall appears to grow taller in height the more one moves their eyes from right to left.

Happy Holidays,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch
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8 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

Howdy to you & the rest of your neighbors from 'down under', Robin:

Your magnificent photo display of the Croft ladies triggered a memory of discussions I remember from the original Lancer Forum that  I'd like to share with the Education Forum readers & you (hoping all find it interesting):

Part of the discussion concerned the woman wearing the blue dress & the fellow dressed in brown sitting next to her at the corner of the retaining wall behind the Croft ladies standing & waving on the sidewalk.

Someone noticed that the woman & her companion's legs only come down to a point above the shrubs & commented that when they sat at that same spot while visiting Dealey Plaza, the visitor's legs collided with the shrubs & almost reached the ground. The commenter suggested the woman & her companion were too small, almost dwarf-like in size for their feet to hang above the wall shrubs, as seen in the Croft photo.

As I recall, the late Gary Mack sent word through messenger (sock puppet?) that he had sat there at the spot on the retaining wall & his legs only came down to a position as seen by the couple in the Croft photo. This was followed by a lot of disagreement by people who had visited that spot in Dealey Plaza.

Being close to Dealey Plaza at the time, my curiosity got the best of me &, Croft photo in hand, I sat at the same spot the Croft wall woman & her companion sat. My feet immediately collided with the top of the shrubs. When I worked my feet behind the shrubs, they almost touched the ground. I'm 5' 9". The shrubs were cut identical to the height seen in the Croft photo.

In another Lancer Forum discussion, someone was claiming the Croft ladies were actually CIA sponsored anti-Castro revolutionary men dressed in drag & compared photos of anti-Cuban fighters to each woman. Several photos were posted for comparison purposes.

I recall another Lancer contributor believed he spotted a shooter with pistol in hand hiding between Croft sidewalk woman #3 and #4.

Some Lancer Forum posters believed they saw a bullet hole in the parade car's windshield directly in front of driver William Greer while others believed they saw Greer holding a chrome pistol in his hand.

Since the online hacking & destruction of the original Lancer Forum, I've often wondered which controversial topic was the one that was the straw that 'broke the camel's back'.

The late photo analyst Jack White posted a lot of his analysis of the Croft photo either here at the Ed Forum or at Deep Politics Forum. Jack believed the Croft photo was extensively altered. Some of Jack's observations included the photo depicts JFK's parade car moving uphill at a point on Elm Street that is a steep, downhill grade & the white retaining wall appears to grow taller in height the more one moves their eyes from right to left.

Happy Holidays,

Brad Milch

Thanks Brad

Yes i recall the old Lancer forum posts, Jack White was harmless enough, but he had a vivid imagination when it came to the topic of photo alteration.

 

Robin..

Edited by Robin Unger
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3 hours ago, Michael Walton said:

Is there some kind of significance to these photos, Robin?  Just curious.  And which Z frame photo matches up with Altgens 6?

 

Miichael

Altgens 6 equates to Z-255

 

The Croft ladies post is just a guide to the orientation of the photo, so as to give a better perspective of the exact position along Elm st at which the Croft ladies were standing.

the significance is in the eye of the viewer.

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Robin & Michael:

To the best of my knowledge, none of the people visible in the Croft photo (women or men) have ever been positively identified or interviewed. Some might attach great significance to so many JFK assassination witnesses, gathered in such close proximity to the doomed President as he was being ambushed & murdered, all escaping from history without a comment or trace as too great of a coincidence.

Others might use the Croft photo as an example of just how badly Bill Decker's men held everything secure following the sheriff's radio order to his department's officers.

IIRC, distinguished JFK researcher, author & JFKFacts webmaster, Jefferson (Jeff) Morley, referenced the Croft ladies photo in his fairly recent online attempt to reach out & establish contact with all the unknown witnesses in Dealey Plaza & get their stories of what they saw & heard on the record. Besides the Croft ladies, Mr. Morley was looking for the black couple referenced by Marilyn Sitzman (Abe Zapruder's filming partner) in her interview in Josiah Thompson's book, 'Six Seconds In Dallas', the living pilots, crew & passengers of the 'Phantom C-130' military cargo aircraft that flew JFK's 'death car' along with the SS followup car 'Queen Mary' into & out of Dallas the day of the assassination (distinguished JFK researcher William Kelly discovered that that aircraft is missing from the Andrews Air Force Base log book as ever having arrived at Andrews AFB with both vehicles aboard). To date, I don't believe Mr. Morley has located anyone not already known in the JFK assassination saga, despite his admirable online efforts.

Robin's photo display is a reminder that a good many JFK assassination witnesses slipped away without being identified on questioned by authorities on the scene 53 years ago. The man on the Dal-Tex building's fire escape in Altgens photo #6, the Dealey Plaza meridian eyewitnesses running away from the North grassy knoll, the Western end of the triple underpass & the 3 wheeler motorcycle officer heading in their direction in the Patsy Paschall enhanced film (shown on Dallas TV in segment portions in 1995) are all examples of more JFK assassination eyewitnesses that were on the scene, close to the ambush itself & all escaping into history without leaving their experiences on record in global history books.

Perhaps Ed Forum readers can use Robin's Croft ladies photo display as a means to reach out to the unknown people seen in the photos & strive for contact & information about their experiences in Dealey Plaza 53 years ago.

Best always,

Brad Milch

 

 

Edited by Brad Milch
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Hi, Lawrence:

I had a computer print of the Croft ladies photo in hand to compare the shrub heights with. I was alone on that visit to Dealey Plaza & I asked a lady visitor to snap a photo of me sitting at the spot on the retaining wall the woman & the man with the small appearing legs sat from Robert Croft's film position across Elm St. She used my digital camera. The shrubs were cut about the same as 1963. They came up to about the halfway point (looking at the wall from Elm Street pointed North).

Incidentally, it's easier to access the corner of the retaining wall from BEHIND it than it is to navigate one's legs & feet over the shrubs from the front.

I'll look through my JFK research materials & try to locate the photos taken of me on the wall & post them once I locate them. I estimated the woman & her companion in the Croft ladies photo to be 5' tall or less.

BTW, the lady DID return my digital camera (lol).

Sincerely,

Brad Milch

Edited by Brad Milch
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6 hours ago, Brad Milch said:

I'll look through my JFK research materials & try to locate the photos taken of me on the wall & post them once I locate them. I estimated the woman & her companion in the Croft ladies photo to be 5' tall or less.

Your photo when overlaid onto Croft's would certainly tell you if the lady who took the photo for you was at the exact same location and on the same line of sight as Croft. Considering the slope of the street ... a left or right  - or an up or down adjustment can be important in how objects can look against each other.

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Hello to you, Mr. Miller!

I consider you one of the biggest guns when it comes to photo analysis & I know from the research you have published online & the visuals analysts that have locked horns with you in the past better than to argue with you on the subject (lol). I always find your analysis interesting & worth the time invested to take it under serious consideration. I have a lot of your animated gifs & your colonial online battles with the late visuals analyst Jack White somewhere in the quagmire known as my personal JFK research collection.

Currently, I am separated from most of my research materials due to an unforeseen event a few months back that left me homeless for a few months. When I reunite with my collection (some friends have been kind enough to shelter them for me), I'll look for those photos of me sitting at the spot on the retaining wall the Croft couple sat at. As I recall my visit, a young adolescent fellow of about 10 or 11 years of age happened by & he sat on the wall solo & also next to me. His legs hung down to a height similar to the couple in the Croft photo (just above the top of the hedges).

Robin's photo display triggered a memory of old Lancer Forum discussions on this topic & from them my curiosity led me to try out sitting on the retaining wall & seeing for myself how far my legs would hang off above the shrubs or if no hang was possible. In my case (I'm 5' 9"), no hang was possible; for me it was either place by legs & feet behind or in front of the hedges. Trust me, either way will tear up one's trousers or shoes (lol).

For those Dealey Plaza visitors that might want to try it for themselves, it's difficult to hop over the shrubs from the front of the retaining wall & hope your bum lands at the right spot on top of the wall; it's much easier to approach the corner of the wall from the rear, sit down (facing towards the TSBD) and spin one's legs & feet over the top of the wall & face Elm Street.

IIRC, in the old Lancer Forum discussions of the 'Croft ladies' photo, it was suggested that Croft's camera may have distorted the image of the Croft ladies or the image might have been distorted on an optical printer. I leave those analyses to the big guns (like yourself, Bill) that understand visuals in much more depth than I possess.

Best wishes to you always, Distinguished Sir!

It's great to see you posting online again on the Education Forum

Sincerely,

Brad Milch

PS: I would be most interested in getting your take on what may be causing the flashes seen in the enhanced video segments of assassination eyewitness & photographer Patsy Paschall's home movie of portions of the JFK assassination she filmed that is posted on YouTube that I've been watching the past few days here:

Could those flashes seen in the red circle marking their location be someone using gunfire to chase people away from the north grassy knoll following the ambush of Pr4sident Kennedy? Your thoughts, Bill?

According to the information posted in the video description, researcher Denis Morissette & Robin Unger's JFK Assassination Forum are responsible for the public being able to view the enhanced segments of the Patsy Paschall film, as well as the full TV interview Patsy gave viewers in & around Dallas in 1995 in which Patsy describes what she saw & heard during the ambush as well as how she was shunned by the Warren Commission (who had possession of her film for a short time).

Robin & Dennis certainly are owed a salute & a tip of the hat IMHO.

Brad

 

Edited by Brad Milch
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On 12/26/2016 at 1:48 PM, Robin Unger said:

Croft ladies in Altgens 6  Credit: Martin Hinrichs

altgens6_cropped.jpg

Robin,

have you ever tried working this Wiegman frame into the picture? Where does the Croft image end from this perspective? Does it even overlap Croft? Surely it must do below on the left hand side somewhere.

rnVmBkS.jpg

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